This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ancient Near East, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Ancient Near East related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ancient Near EastWikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Near EastTemplate:WikiProject Ancient Near EastAncient Near East articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Archaeology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Archaeology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ArchaeologyWikipedia:WikiProject ArchaeologyTemplate:WikiProject ArchaeologyArchaeology articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lebanon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Lebanon-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LebanonWikipedia:WikiProject LebanonTemplate:WikiProject LebanonLebanon articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to
Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please
join the project where you can contribute to the
discussions and help with our
open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Phoenicia, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Phoenicia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.PhoeniciaWikipedia:WikiProject PhoeniciaTemplate:WikiProject PhoeniciaPhoenicia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
should we move such inscriptions into the new "U+10900?U+1091F" range as noted in
Phoenician alphabet? has anyone a link to a working font to enable this? test: ⪔⪕⪖
Hebrew v Hebrew
I haven't the patience (or the young eyes) to check letter-by-letter: Is there any difference, other than font, between the "Hebrew transcription" and the awkwardly huge "Hebrew transliteration"? —
Tamfang (
talk)
08:40, 9 October 2012 (UTC)reply
I have just modified 2 external links on
Eshmunazar II sarcophagus. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).
If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
this tool.
Hi Elias, regarding the removals at
[1] and
[2], particularly re the announcement in the JoC (both the image and the sentence) and the reference to
Aadloun, is this because of the lack of secondary sources? If so, I can provide.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
11:26, 24 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Hey
Onceinawhile I purposefully removed the image of JoC because of a date discrepancy. The journal article is dated 11 Feb 1855 while all excavation reports assert that the sarcophagus and its hypogeum were discovered 9 days later in 20 Feb 1855. I quoted however a passage from the Richmond Palladium where a correspondent of the JoC tells of the discovery. Please also note that Adloun is a town and municipality and is not the same as Magharet Abloun. Please let me know of any other concerns.
_Elias Z. (
talkallam)
08:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Separately, my read of the 20 Feb date (as first reference by de Luynes, in Dec 1855) is that it is not the date of discovery but rather the date when Peretié was first informed. (Le 20 de février 1855, M. Peretié, chancelier du consulat de France à Beyrouth, ayant entrepris des fouilles sur un terrain à vingt-cinq minutes de marche au sud de Sayda, l'ancienne Sidon, fut informé que son agent y avait déterré un cercueil de basalte noir, auprès d'un rocher auquel il était adossé.) Either way, I think it is highly likely that this 20 Feb date was a mis-print for 20 Jan (being 1 day after the 19 Jan discovery date quoted in the JoC), as it should not have taken so long to inform Peretié, the JoC article was published 9 days prior, and all of the scholarly references to the JoC article confirm that it related to the same.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
09:48, 25 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi
Elie, I have located these images which provide all the detail on exactly where it was found. But the pixel quality is low, so I am looking for better versions.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
14:36, 25 February 2021 (UTC)reply
OMFG!!!!!! I was looking for these! Didn't occur to me they'd be in Mission de Phenicie! Also note that in the pic where it says "Pierre en bisea" is where the vault that Peretiés men destroyed, I believe, if i understood the text well, that it was decorated with friezes. The location you proposed looks about right too. You dont cease to amaze kudos 06:50, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Ha, glad you like them! From reading MdP, it seems that Renan’s mission was inspired by the topic of this article. Would be a good connection we can make here if a secondary source confirms it.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
09:25, 26 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Greater Sidon and its "Cities of the Dead", National Museum News] This discovery not only caused a sensation but led the the despatch in 1860 of a scientific mission to Lebanon by Napoleon III that was headed by Ernest Renan…. Renan uncovered six white anthropoid marble sarcophagi in 1861. They were sent to France where they are on display to in the Musée du Louvre.
Guaillardot really fu**ed it up mate. A perfect example how amateur archaeologists and laymen can destroy what has survived for thousands of years. de Luynes doesn't say it exlicitely but it was the works that Guaillardot supervised that led to the collapse of the protective vault.
_Elias Z. (
talkallam)
12:13, 26 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Elias Ziade, ha yes. Such a shame. Could have been a tourist attraction today. Albeit that outside of Beirut and Baalbeck there just isn’t the money to keep these places maintained properly. I visited the incredible
Stelae of Nahr el-Kalb a while back, and was shocked to see the place completely unprotected. PS – just realized you found that same significance paragraph two days ago and already put it in the article; I am being slow.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
21:59, 26 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The empty lot looks like it has some kind of vestiges. I will try to pass by the next time I'm in the area. I am going to add this set to the coordinates field. If that's not okay please feel free to revert.
_Elias Z. (
talkallam)
12:13, 26 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The find spot of the Eshmunazar II sarcophagus from Renan's Mission de Phénicie
@
पाटलिपुत्र and
Elias Ziade: I have overlaid the two maps (the zoomed in one plus the wider area) in the image on the right; the centre of the red circle should pinpoint the location of the sarcophagus find spot. It is a little to the northwest of the location of the 36 triangle.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
13:56, 26 February 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Onceinawhile: Very clear indeed. Looking at Google Maps, it seems that the 36 triangle remains unconstructed, but I am afraid the area of the Eshmunazar II sarcophagus you are pointing to has been largely built over. पाटलिपुत्र Pat(talk)14:05, 26 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi
Elie. Just a note about the dates:
Tabnit according to his article ruled circa 490 BC, which seems quite late compared to the dates of his successor Eshmunazar II. Any idea how to sort this out? Thanks for your great work on these articles! पाटलिपुत्र Pat(talk)07:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Yes
पाटलिपुत्र recent dating based on updated numismatic, archaeological and epigraphic data place the Eshmunazar dynasty in the 6th century BC. Tabnit's article needs a major overhall after I finish with that of his heir. I will fix the dates for now until I have the time to review the entire thing. Thank you so much for pointing this out, if you identify any other discrepancies please let me know. 08:27, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Body?
Hi @
Elias Ziade and
पाटलिपुत्र: have either of you come across details of whether a body was found within the sarcophagus? We have that clearly stated at
Tabnit sarcophagus but are silent here. This was all a long time before radiocarbon dating or DNA testing so I imagine Durighello didn’t see the point of trying to preserve it.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
22:38, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi
Elias Ziade, I have just read the De Luynes explanation: Ce rocher s'élève en masse circulaire; son diamètre est d'environ vingt-cinq pas. Taillé verticalement à l'extérieur, il est creusé à l'intérieur en forme de voûte que recouvre une sorte de ciment dont l'antiquité ne paraît pas très-reculée. D'un côté, il contient quatre niches creusées dans son épaisseur au niveau du sol. L'une d'elles, la plus grande de toutes, a deux mètres au moins de largeur sur autant de profondeur : en face de ces niches s'en trouvent deux autres de petites dimensions; auprès d'elles est l'entrée de la grotte. Deux marches sont pratiquées dans le rocher; elles aboutissaient au point où devait être la tête du cercueil principal. Le sarcophage de basalte noir fut découvert à deux mètres de profondeur en dehors de ce tombeau. Sa place était creusée dans le roc vif; mais il devait être protégé par un caveau vouté dont on retrouve encore quelques pierres. Une dent, un morceau d'ossement et, plus tard, une mâchoire humaine furent trouvés dans les déblais.
My French is not good enough to understand some of the nuances in what he is saying:
What is he implying with the statement "recouvre une sorte de ciment dont l'antiquité ne paraît pas très-reculée" - perhaps that the tomb was broken in to and then resealed?
When he says "Deux marches sont pratiquées dans le rocher; elles aboutissaient au point où devait être la tête du cercueil principal. Le sarcophage de basalte noir fut découvert à deux mètres de profondeur en dehors de ce tombeau." is he saying the sarcophagus was moved?
And with the statement "Sa place était creusée dans le roc vif; mais il devait être protégé par un caveau vouté dont on retrouve encore quelques pierres. Une dent, un morceau d'ossement et, plus tard, une mâchoire humaine furent trouvés dans les déblais." is he saying that this rubble is the rubble of the broken vault structure, so the rubble was outside the sarcophagus on the floor, and the sarcophagus was therefore empty?:
Onceinawhile (
talk)
08:45, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Hey
Onceinawhile de Luynes was a duc with no archeology background. His observations are not authoritative. I'll go through your inquiries one by one:
The mortar was among the rubble; He only assumed the mortar was of recent times. The vault had collapsed, only a few stones, including an angled one suggested that the sarco was protected by a vaulted arch. The fact that the king's bones (but are they conclusively his bones and teeth) were among the rubble suggests that the resting place was vandalized but it is unknown when that happened. It is unlikely the tomb was resealed.
_Elias Z. (
talkallam)
10:12, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
"Deux marches sont pratiquées dans le rocher; elles aboutissaient au point où devait être la tête du cercueil principal. [Two steps were cut in the rock, they lead to the point where the main "casket" was] "Le sarcophage de basalte noir fut découvert à deux mètres de profondeur en dehors de ce tombeau." [The black basalt (it's not made of basalt) sarcophagus was discovered at a depth of 2 meters outside of "this" tomb] Okay so if you look at the pics from MdP you can see that the sarco of Esh II lay outside of the "cavern" or rock-cut chamber in it's own rock cut pit, covered by vault (this does not suggest that it was moved); you can also see the steps he referred to and the four niches where caskets or sarcophagi used to be; the main casket he refers to is the one that would have occupied the first and largest of the niches.
bin milk tabnīt milk ṣīdōnīm dabar milk ʾèšmūnʿazar milk ṣīdōnīm līʾmōr nagzaltī
son of king Tabnit, king of the Sidonians, king Eshmunazar, king of the Sidonians, said as follows: I was carried away
This visually aligns each word of the original text with the transliteration and the word with vowels. The layperson who's not very familiar with Phoenician can't/won't read any of the first 3 lines alone, and being able to visually see the connection between the lines makes the whole thing much more intelligible.
It does mean that the right-to-left nature of Phoenician is messed with. If someone thought it was really important not to, that one line could be left out but the transcription and vowel line could still be aligned, like this:
Also, the current small-caps format is terrible because it's not consistent, since there is no small caps letter for ḥ, so you get patchy stuff like: BYRḤ.
Eievie (
talk)
04:31, 10 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Phoenician, like all Semitic languages, is (well, was) written right-to-left. In method 1, you reversed the order of the text itself – that's a big no-no, without exception. In method 2, you preserve the writing direction, but in doing so you also scrunch up the actual text itself while giving the transliteration a lot of breathing room. In that case it's actually a bit distracting – so since you can't have it both ways, why fix what isn't broken? Like I said in my edit summaries – these are good faith edits, but the ultimate result just isn't worth the change itself. That's my two cents, anyway.
Emolu (
talk)
19:00, 10 October 2023 (UTC)reply
What I'm hearing is that you're conceptually on board with the idea of highlighting the relationship between lines, if the formatting friction can be worked out?
What if the OG, normally formatted line was up top? And then after that it's it broken down word-by-word?
Here’s a somewhat stupid idea: what if you reversed the order of all of the retranscription and transliteration, but keep the translation as it is now, that way the right-to-left order will be preserved and the translation would still be readable.
Emolu (
talk)
21:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
That crossed my mind as well. I didn't immediately peruse it because it would require editing the {{fs interlinear}} template in some complicated ways. But if that is agreed to be the best option, I could work on that.
Eievie (
talk)
Eievie (
talk)
00:13, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Emolu This isn't set up with the template yet, just a demo with HTML. But is this what you were imagining?
I second @
Emolu. @
Eievie You clearly have no idea what you are doing. You don't get to unilaterally decide to mess up an incredibly well-written article just because you don't like how it looks?! Tables work perfectly fine thank you. Kyle 79080
23:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kyle79080 (
talk •
contribs) reply
I didn't make a unilateral decision; I made an edit. Making edits on wikipedia is allowed. You don't have to like the edit, and we can talk about its merits. But just making one edit — even one controversial edit — is not breaking the rules or anything, so I'd appreciate a little less hostility right off the bat.
And no, I did not make an edit just to change how it looks. I made an edit to highlight the relationship between the different renditions of the text.
Eievie (
talk)
02:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Eievie: I support your goal, and thank you for your efforts. Perhaps the way to take the heat out of the situation would be a present the full version here and we can discuss improvements.
@
Onceinawhile I still don't see any added value in changing the current table format. It has been tried and tested and works very well for this kind of side to side comparison. We have to bear in mind other editors who don't have a lot of experience with these new templates. Additionally, when the line breaks, especially on smaller screens, the result is unsightly and confusing, not to mention the writing direction issue that @
Emolu highlighted. Tables offer the advantage of WYSIWYG in the newer live wikitext editors. I do not support changing the format.
el.ziade (
talkallam)
09:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I just looked at it on my phone, and I'm deeply confused at what argument is being made here. On my small phone screen, the current table setup needs cuts off after the "transliteration" column. That seems terrible to me, both inconvenient and unsightly. How is that a good thing in your view?
First, thank you for opening this discussion. {{
fs interlinear}} has several problems which would need to be sorted out before it is used here:
The original-text line does not apply css to highlight the foreign language text as the lang templates do. I think this is essential and it is one of the points I raised during FAC.
While it works well for left-to-right scripts such as Greek or Russian, it fails badly for right-to-left scripts such as the Phoenician here. Although the word order is reversed, the glyph order within each word is unchanged, so the original and transliterated glyphs still do not line up. This looks like a failure to consider right-to-left scripts when designing the template.
While it will be OK to display a helpfully-wrong original line (in this case, all glyphs in reverse order, spaces between what we consider separate words), we would also need a helpfully-right original line (original order, added spaces, which is the input to the template). If the template generates this, it can be right-aligned to the width of the template display rather than the page width as in the example above.
My suggestion is that you fix the bugs in the template, which would potentially benefit lots of articles, then come back and propose using the corrected template here. --
Mirokado (
talk)
22:18, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Onceinawhile @
Mirokado I think I've got the technical side figured out, and I've started a thread about it
here. I've got it working in a sandbox, and I'm ready to get it approved and move it to the template's main version. If you want to contribute to that conversation, now's the time.
Eievie (
talk)
06:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Other two sarcophagi
I have reworded the sentence in the lead in line with note 7, which says the owner of the female sarcophagus is unknown. Probably, my wording could be improved and the information should also be included in the body of the article.
TSventon (
talk)
14:12, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply