This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 27, 2004, October 27, 2005, October 27, 2006, October 27, 2007, October 27, 2008, October 27, 2009, October 27, 2010, October 27, 2016, and October 27, 2019. |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
there is no evidence or references supporting the claim that st. vincent's mother tongue is Vincentian Creole. please provide some. 71.63.105.37 ( talk) 05:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, you're right I didn't include evidence before 24 Feb. I did soon after though but it was deleted by T-rex. I'll post it again here.
You can see in the Ethnologue entry that the number of speakers of Vincentian Creole English is much greater than the number of English speakers. Nrp0450 ( talk) 20:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
One might also consider consulting the American Anthropologist article by Roger D. Abrahams & Richard Bauman (1971) titled "Sense and Nonsense in St. Vincent: Speech Behavior and Decorum in a Caribbean Community" or the book Contact Englishes of the Eastern Caribbean ( ISBN 9027248907) by Michael Aceto & Jeffrey Payne Williams (2003) for more information. Maher-shalal-hashbaz ( talk) 14:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually the CIA fact book entry backs up exactly what I've been saying all along. I've never claimed that these languages don't exsist, only that they are not widely spoken and that English is the primary language by a large margin -- T- rex 19:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Because the vast majority of the paragraph is flat out incorrect. Also, I'm not 100% convinced that it is significant enough to mention on this page. -- T- rex 21:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps I should point out that the Official website of the Government of St. Vincent and the Grenadines is in English? But beyond that the article says nothing on the topic anyhow. While the (short) article is mostly on a different topic, and does include the line you quoted at the very bottom, if anything you should note the implication that the Creole language is not presently used. Once again, I am not trying to say that the language doesn't exist, but that English is the primary language of well over 90% of the nation's population. -- T- rex 20:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Everything I've seen seems to point to this as being a separate language, rather than just an accent or "corrupted English", so that doesn't appear to be the case here. The problem is it is clearly not a well known language on the island at all. --02:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
No, none have. Even the links in your last post don't even come close to saying that. Every single source listed either mentions that English is the primary language, or that anything else spoken is simply English with an accent. Do I need to walk you through it step by step? -- T- rex 21:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
T-rex... please imagine a tiny island where everyone that is born native to the tiny little island speaks the mother tongue of slparmly (I made that up). However, this tiny little island is not only heavily dependent on tourism, but is also very effective at education. Since the vast majority of this made up world speaks jaulrlgyis (I made that up too), all of the little children are also taught to understand and speak this language from a very young age, and it is the primary language taught once they go to school. Now... bring in two people... one a tourist and the second a language expert... ask them what is the primary language? Everyone will speak to the tourist in jaulrlgyis, but as the language expert does their study, they will soon find that the nationals have a different mother tongue.
No one is asking you to give up the precious fact that English is not only official, but is also primary. All they are asking is that you admit to the fact that multiple sources, including scholarly articles, books, websites, and first-hand witnesses attest to a second language that is indeed very common on the island. The only other thing that I ask is that you cease from labeling things with rv v when it fails to meet the Wikipedia definition of vandalism. Maher-shalal-hashbaz ( talk) 02:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe if I use a chart you might understand... (using all of the sources in the article)
Source | Text/Description | Argument for English being the dominant and primary language in St. Vincent | Argument for any other language to come close to being used by at least 10% of the nation |
---|---|---|---|
Gordon, Raymond G., Jr. (ed.) (2005).
"Ethnologue: Languages of the World, 15th edition". Dallas, TX: SIL International. {{
cite web}} : |first= has generic name (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
|
A book on languages | Mentions English first. Vincentian Creole is only mentioned as "Vincentian Creole English". Also states that the "creole used here is virtually gone" [1] | It mentions Vincentian Creole English |
"St. Vincentians". everyculture.com. | A website about countries. (is a bit of a questionable source to begin with actually) says "English is the official language of St. Vincent and the Grenadines. Most people on the islands speak a local dialect, or Creole, that combines elements of West African languages and French. West Indian Creole languages use object pronouns in the subject position. For example, a Vincentian might say, "Me going down town" for "I am going down town."" | Says that "English is the official language", the only example of Creole given reads as broken English rather than as another language. | States that "Most people on the islands speak a local dialect, or Creole" (is the only source to say so) |
"Country Fact Sheet on Saint Vincent and the Grenadines". {{
cite web}} : Unknown parameter |pubisher= ignored (|publisher= suggested) (
help)
|
A Canadian document similar in style to the CIA World Fact Book. States only that "English is the official language. Vincentian Creole English is also used." | Lists English first, Vincentian Creole is only mentioned as "Vincentian Creole English" | It mentions Vincentian Creole English |
Background Note: Saint Vincent and the Grenadines - US Dept of State | US State Department info on the country Says "Language: English (official); some French Patois spoken" and also that "The country's official language is English, but a French patois may be heard on some of the Grenadine Islands." | Says that English is the official language. Confines the use of French patois to parts of the Grenadines (The entire Grenadines is only 8% of the population) | Does manage to mention a French patois |
"The World Factbook - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines". {{
cite web}} : Unknown parameter |pubisher= ignored (|publisher= suggested) (
help)
|
The CIA world fact book. States that "This entry provides a rank ordering of languages starting with the largest" then lists "English, French patois" | Clearly states that English is the largest language in the country. | Lists a second language, although it clearly states that it is based on French |
Bayhill apartments | Some Hotel/Ad (clearly not a good source, but others seem to think it is) Says only "English is the first language of St. Vincent & the Grenadines, locals speak an English dialect." | Flat out says that "English is the first language of St. Vincent & the Grenadines" Mentions no languages at all except English | none |
St. Vincent and the Grenadines Meteorological Service | National Weather page. States that all info is taken from the US State Department and/or the CIA World Fact Book. As a result has the same info | Lists English, with no mention of Creole or patois | none |
now that I've posted everything so you don't even have to RTFA can you see any reason to present Vincentian Creole (or anything but English) as the most used and primary one on the island? I have no problem with Vincentian Creole getting a mention, but the undo weight it is receiving is way over the top. -- T- rex 15:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Now, if you look carefully at the study done by SIL, you'll see they list the number of native speakers in parenthesis. What that suggests is totally in line with the analogy provided earlier, that the vast majority of the population, while they clearly speak English (based on your excellent original research), do not have English as their mother tongue. Rather, it is what they call dialect... based on English (not the French version which the study refers to as being virtually gone), but something more than an accent. Maher-shalal-hashbaz ( talk) 20:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I have filed a report at Wikiquette alerts regarding the removal of my comments by T-rex. Maher-shalal-hashbaz ( talk) 21:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
While we're on the subject of language, I have never in my life met a Portuguese Vincentian who could speak Portuguese or an Indian who spoke Bhojpuri/Hindi. Has anyone? Because I disagree that either language is spoken in the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.149.66 ( talk) 05:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
But what on earth is the point of listing a northern Indian language as an example if no one on the island speaks it? Seems like it just comes out of nowhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.18.244.176 ( talk) 13:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
I some how doubt that they make the equivalent to $12 million. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.130.47 ( talk) 16:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
This page states that Saint Andrew has no capital; the Saint Andrew page says that the capital is Layou. Can somebody correct whichever is wrong?
-- Timtranslates ( talk) 20:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
The article uses all three forms in the phrase "Saint Vincent and the Grenadines". Should we have an internal standardised way to refer to the state? As far as I know the offical name is Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, so I think the rest of the article conform in all instances... Is the island referred differently to the state in official usage? The article for Saint Lucia, for example, uses the form "Saint" exclusively. Is mixed usage acceptable? That doesn't seem right to be but others might know better. iamlilyy 18:54, 5 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamlilyy ( talk • contribs)
According to the PCGN, St Vincent is the country name, and Saint Vincent and the Grenadines is the state title.
I think that the content from Saint Vincent and the Grenadines at the Pan American Games should probably be merged into this article since it appears to just be a content fork. Reaper Eternal ( talk) 19:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:11, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:55, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:32, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
The article currently reads,
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines is a densely populated country for its size
This strikes me as nonsensical, as population density is derived from a formula that includes size. Am I missing something? Un sch ool 09:08, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Does Saint Vincent and the Grenadines have a shorter alias, like DR Congo and Laos do? — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 ( talk) 10:06, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
It seems like this section covers a very minor treaty on tax law. This section strikes me as incredibly trivial information that is probably only of interest to a few dozen tax lawyers. I can't imagine other articles for countries have similarly obscure sections on treaties covering tax law. Can we delete the section? NickCT ( talk) 17:06, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:21, 23 March 2023 (UTC)