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I wrote the skeleton of the current article two years ago -- most of the original language is intact but there is still a lot of confusion about how to represent this concept in a serious encyclopedia. First, a couple of historical points:
Recently, there has been some consensus among historians that the "Reconquista" of Spain, that is, the reversion of Spain from an Islamic state to its previous Christian one -- was largely a demographic transition. It used to be believed that the reversion to Christianity was the result of a lot of dramatic battles, but, remarkably, it turns out most of the change was the result of gradual population shifts. Awareness of this fact has informed the coiners of the "reconquista" phrase in the Mexican context. No one with any sensitivity to the full and historically contextualized meaning of the word "reconquista" would sustain a "nationalist" reading of its significance, unless they had a humorous end. In fact, the actual use of the word is mostly confined to people who understand what it means, that is, Mexicans who read a lot.
This is the beginning and the end of the story; people who think this has something to do with the "Aztlan" crowd (whether they belong to the aztlan crowd or not), are generally totally ignorant of the actual phrase as it actually exists. It requires a lot of specific knowledge of Spanish and Mexican literary history to understand why this word is used, something that the Chicano nationalists are not only ignorant of but hostile to. If you study the edit history you will notice a lot of phrases like "chicano nationalists do not acutally use this word but..." They never used the word because they don't know what it means, and they don't have any sensitivity to why it is or isn't relevant. Occasionally there have even turned up indigenist interpretations of the term -- that is something to the effect of, "reconquista means the recovery of this land by indigenous people." That is pure US undergraduate infantilism; almost all Mexicans have complex racial identities that incorporate European components, and those few that don't do not regard themselves as Mexican any more than the Amish feel American. In short, please leave this curious and specific article alone unless you have the slightest, most minimal clue what it really acutally means when used by the people who have a clue what it minimally, actually means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.141.53.40 ( talk) 09:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Might as well say my piece before this two paragraph article becomes the scene of another edit war. The concept of recoquista can be seen mainly as an issue of nationalism, more specifically pan- or greater nationalism, like how the Sudeten Germans wanted to be part of the German nation-state, Serbia wanting control over Serb populated areas of Bosnia, etc. It happens all over the world. While the term is used by white racist against Hispanics, the same is true of Chicano nationalists who use the term with the same meaning, except for them it is a good thing. Both accuse the other of being "racists"
What you have here is a garden variety ethnic conflict with out a "good guy" or "bad guy" but simply two cultures living in the same area, with nationalist agitators in each camp. Surprised there is so much hub-bub about it.-- Dudeman5685 17:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
It's imperfect, I know, additions? Subtractions?
This article has been kept following
this VFD debate.
Sjakkalle
(Check!)
12:03, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm surprised that people who considers The Minutemen Project as racists, don't consider this Mexica Movement as worse racist. I don't see the difference between a white supremacist group that promoves the expulsion of illegal immigrants and a indigeneous supremacist group that promoves the expulsion of white people. The argument of "we were here before you" is crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tesi1700 ( talk • contribs) 18:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm Mexican, obviosly is racist talk about the expulsion of white people. But I know the "Reconquista" is a "movement" for return to Mexico the lost territories or create a New Nation whit that territories. I'm not sure. thanks. jmko22 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.148.27.141 ( talk) 22:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Okay, if it's not VfD material, it certainly needs sourcing and a more neutral tone. It should have gotten a POV tag as soon as it came from VfD. If no one else does it, I'll gladly rewrite it to say "Some damned gringo conspiracy theory about how dark people are taking over. Typical honky bull." That should move the ball into someone else's court. That this kind of tone should persist here is unacceptable. -- Diderot 17:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't know, it seems to me that the article states the facts and does not argue one way or the other. Yes, there is a conspiracy theory, and yes, that is how anglo settlers initially took over much of the land on this side of the United States.
The article needs to state the true facts.
Which are that the land being "claimed" by "chicanos" for "reconquista", which comprises the existing southwest states of the USA, was not Mexican land first, but rather the land of a myriad of native tribes, which were not "Mexican", and were not "Aztec".
There was never any such place as "Aztlan", the Aztec (or Mexica) tribe never lived in the land which is now the United States, and the land which is now the southwest USA was not "Mexico", since no place called Mexico even existed.
When the Spanish came from Europe, the Spanish Conquistadores explored the continent of North America, and claimed part of the land as "New Spain".
The Spanish drew the maps. No maps were drawn by an Aztec tribe. The map being used to illustrate the "reconquista" and/or "Aztlan" has nothing to do with the Aztec tribe, it is a map of the Spanish land in North America, which became "Mexico" in 1822.
The land on this side of the United States was not "Mexico" first, it was native indian tribal lands (not "Aztec" tribe). It was not "Mexico" second", it was Spanish land, as in Spain, a nation still in Europe. It was only "Mexican" land for a few decades, 25 to 27 years, and most of it was sold to the United States following the signing of the Treaty of Guadelupe Hidalgo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CheyenneZ ( talk • contribs) 02:27, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
The bias of the article is obvious. It is not a statement of fact but an editorial. Both the article and statements made about it show the desire of people to have their opinions viewed as facts. At university campuses this trend is seen in the classroom where professors who view themselves as wise lecture their students in viewpoints and college-level courses serve as indoctrination sessions. A person who agrees with an author's viewpoint will call an article objective, while those who disagree will see it as propaganda. The article under discussion is clearly intended to convey a viewpoint to the readers. I wonder how much information in textbooks--including that which I was taught and believe--is really mere arguement of authors disguised as revelation.
This ostensible plan of conquest is rife with hints of sexual repression and racism on the part of those who believe in it. '
Oh? How does the writer know what those who have beared witness to the Reconquista movement think or 'feel?" And how is this supposedly factual?
This article is crap. Period. But it serves the following purpose: it allows legal aliens and citizens to see the mindset of socialist "revolutionaries" in action. And the latter are damned fools.
This article is about a ridiculous belief held by a few grossly misinformed people. It does a good job of explaining what the belief is and where it might have come from. I would be for the deletion of this article if I wasn't worried it would show up under a different title with a few users trying to justify how ludicrous the whole notion is. Because of that I think the article should stay as it is and be protected. Mosquito-001 21:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Fixed the article on 1/13/06 to be more npov. Many people do not hold this belief, "some" do. It should also be mentioned what the majority of the public thinks of extreme groups that hold this belief. Mosquito-001 20:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I recently graduated from college and not only did I have friends in Mecha but also family members. The reconquista movement is real, though it is not well organized. It is really more at the idea stage of it's development.They are often much more honest in private, and talk about "taking over" America in the future when more hispanics are in the US. Mecha members do believe that europeans are foreign invaders and that they should be driven out, but they lack the political, military and economic skills to do it. If you don't believe it, go to a Mecha website and read their words. In my opinion, they are the latino equivalent of the KKK as they are largely driven by hatred of what they preceive as anyone of European decent. The funny thing about this hatred, to me, is that most hispanics would rather live with gabachos in the US, than with their "own" countrymen at home- which has always made me wonder: if they do take over the US will they do a better job here than the one they did in their own homelands? Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
This text has no sources to support it, and makes a number of POV claims. I've removed it until we can find references to cite. - Will Beback 23:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
There is no source for this material. In my research using Mexican-American primary sources, I have found only one document that used the word "reconquista" in the context referred to in the article. The reality is that the word "reconquista" is primarily used by alarmists, who employ it to sensationalize what most people see as simply a gradual demographic shift. If it sourced this right-wing material, much of which is available on the web, I might consider voting against its deletion. But as it stands, I think the article ought to be deleted. It is written from a POV, unsourced, and only marginally important, as the anti-illegal immigration movement is at best third-rail issue in American politics. If no one objects soon, I'll tag it for deletion.-- Rockero 23:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
The illegal immigration issue is anything but a third rail of American politics. State legislatures across the country are enacting or debating laws to control the spread of illegals. The US House of Representatives passed a bill last month to curb illegals. A recent CBS poll showed that 80% of Americans, that's republicans and democrats, are tired of the drain on local economies that illegal aliens represent. Proposition 200 in Arizona was sponsored by a supporter of Ralph Nader, it overwelmingly passed. Americans are tired of footing the bill for mexico's failures.
I object to this article being deleted. The only ones who oppose it's presence seem to be Mecha members or supporters (misquito & rockero). If it is deleted it will not be because it is false or misleading.
Enough of the talk here's the truth which is available to anybody at any mecha website:
It is laughable that anyone, except mecha members, believe that mecha is anything but a racist organization. I think it just goes to show that no matter how educated you are, racism runs to the bone. Thank you rockero for restoring misquitos posts, but not restoring the ones I wrote which misquito deleted. Your "objectivity" is noted.
Suprise, suprise. Classifying all "white" people as foreign invaders isn't racist? Calling them racially motivated names like "gabacho" and "gringo" isn't racist? I bet you would feel differently if someone was calling you a racist name like "beaner" or "wetback." There is a double standard.
Where do the words "right to privacy" appear in the constitution? They don't, but they can be infered from the text. If you refer to all "europeans" as foreign invaders and you talk about your races duty to "reclaim" the land from the foreign invaders it is no stretch to infer what the point of it is. I first heard the word reconquista at a Mecha meeting at my college, and it was used by Mecha members to remind their members that this was not the "Americans" lands, it belong to the "indigenous" peoples and one day they would take it back. If you are unaware of the extreme racist elements within Mecha, then you are out of the loop (either that or you support their position.) I never said it would be a military conquest, hell, I think our common citizens could defeat the Mexican army. What I believe, and what Mecha teaches, is that people from Mexico do not have to follow our laws because this is not our land- it is theirs. This is why they support illegal immigration so strongly, they want as many of what they see as "their people" to come here so that they can gain electoral majorities and influence our elections (which they already do to a certain extant).
I think it is silly for one reason- it doesn't even begin to address why they really come here: their corrupt democratically elected governments have failed them. But it allows them to do what all racists do: focus on the boogeymen. The boogeyman in this case is "whitey," "cracker," "gabacho," or whatever. Whitey is the foreign invader that must be driven out to purify the land. It's assine, but stupid people follow stupid ideas. I'm part hispanic, but I don't need false pride in my race to feel good about myself. I want an America of laws. Our ancestors all came here for pretty much the same reason: the place where they were living were screwed up, and that hasn't changed. People who come here to break the laws ruin our country, because that unwillingness to follow laws is exactly what screwed up the country where they came from.
YOU HAVE NO GREIVANCE. There were no crimes committed against you. MECHA HAS NO GREIVANCE. there were no crimes comitted against mecha members. But I can guarantee YOUR ancestors committed crimes against the indigenous peoples of Mexico, central america and south america if you have any Mexican ancestory. It was your ancestors who came to the Americas from Spain with their Roman Catholicism and their spanish language to murder rape and plunder the new world. Your ancestors destroyed the aztecs. Your greivance is with your own flesh and blood, you just don't like to hear it. If you want to change the world apologize for your ancestors war crimes and begin a new life, but don't lecture me about it from a hypocritical point of view.
Just an fyi skeeter, nobody but you thinks that mecha is a civil rights organization. They are racist. You may be able to control what is said on this page, but people across this country are catching on to what mecha, and similar groups, are really all about. There was a trickle of reporting about it in the last election cycle. I saw reports on CNN, FOX, CBS and NBC where people were getting the word out about Mecha, and you won't stop that. Mecha can't hide in the shadows anymore and spew their racial hatred in secret.Like the KKK, mechas racist positions will be it's downfall. Don't get sucked into it skeeter, I'll be praying for you.
www.aztlan.net Professor Predicts 'Hispanic Homeland' By The Associated Press Republica del NorteALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — A University of New Mexico Chicano Studies professor predicts a new, sovereign Hispanic nation within the century, taking in the Southwest and several northern states of Mexico. Charles Truxillo suggests the “Republica del Norte,” the Republic of the North, is “an inevitability.” Truxillo, 47, has said the new country should be brought into being “by any means necessary,”
Here's another source: A breakaway of U.S. states is a distinct possibility, according to prominent Chicano activist and University of California at Riverside professor Armando Navarro. In an interview with WorldNetDaily, Navarro would not answer directly whether he shared separatist aspirations, but said that if demographic and social trends continue, secession is inevitable. "A secessionist movement is not something that you can put away and say it is never going to happen in the United States," he continued. "Time and history change."
El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán
In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants...of Aztlán from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth.. Aztlán belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans.
Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho" who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation.
Bustamante Won't Renounce Ties to Chicano Student Group Thursday, August 28, 2003
LOS ANGELES — California Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante (search), the grandson of Mexican immigrants who counts improving race relations among his biggest pursuits, refused Thursday to renounce his past ties to a little-known Hispanic organization considered by critics to be as racist as the Ku Klux Klan. MEChA has used violence in the past to make its case. At a July 4 celebration in 1996, members of the group, who call themselves Mechistas, were videotaped attacking black and white Americans protesting illegal immigration. In 1993, students at UCLA caused $500,000 worth of damage during protests to demand a Chicano studies department. MEChA has also been associated with anti-Semitic groups like Nation of Aztlan. MEChA's motto is "for the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing." Critics say affiliation with that kind of group could spell political ruin for a white candidate and are upset that little attention has been paid to Bustamante's relationship with the group. He belonged to MEChA while attending Fresno State University in the 1970s. According to the organization's constitution, "Chicanas and Chicanos must ... politicize our Raza [race] ... and struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlan."
Aztlan (search) is the area that is currently the southwest United States, but Mechistas claim Aztlan is their homeland to be returned to Mexico and the group says white Americans who currently govern these areas must be removed from power.
"What is a moderate member of a racist organization? 'I was a moderate member of the Klan.' Imagine if a Republican made that statement," Elder said.
"I think he should answer for his membership in the group," said syndicated columnist Michelle Malkin. "I think he needs to explain why he has not disassociated himself from a group that is violent, which has caused riots on campus and which has preached anti-Semitism and anti-black ideology."
This can be found at the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) website under Nation of Aztlan:
Introduction
The Nation of Aztlan (NOA), first organized in the early 1990s, is a California-based Hispanic nationalist organization that claims to represent the desires and aspirations of the Hispanic community. The organization calls for the United States to return "Aztlan" territory - Aztlan being the mythic homeland of the Mexican people, or Aztecs, which according to legend is found in the American Southwest or Northern Mexico. The group's nationalist message is blurred by frequent appeals anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism, homophobia and other expressions of hatred.Hispanic rights activists revived the story of Aztlan in the 1960s. Beyond a mere physical site, Aztlan has become a metaphor for the geographic, historical and spiritual home of many indigenous people in the Southwest. The NOA seeks to create a separate nation in the area now "occupied" roughly by California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.
The Sierra Times had a quote from a member of MEChA:
“Asked about his group’s ideology and intentions, Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge’s MEChA chapter replied: “The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlán. Communism would be closest [to it].” Once Aztlán is established, continued Perez, ethnic cleansing would commence: “Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power.”
There is ample evidence not only for the continued existence of this article, but an expansion of it's origins and detailed information on it's supporters.
The Sierra Times is the source, so the quote is anything but dubious. If you have a legitmate reason for doubting their reporting- let's hear it. The reality is that the four sources cited, from the mainstream press, show that the sentiment known as "reconquista" exists. The term "reconquista" doesn't need any further source. The phrase is acknowledged by supporters and detractors in terms of it's meaning. Saying that the plot doesn't exist isn't the same as saying the word to describe the plot doesn't exist. The plot could be a farce and yet the accepted word to describe the plot would still exist. The "second shooter theory" describes the idea that there were two shooters for the Kennedy assasination, many people don't believe in the theory but still understand what the phrase "second shooter" means. Even if the theory was conclusively eliminated as a possibilty the phrase second shooter would still exist to describe the disproven theory. It is the term used by many in the public and the media to describe the concept that part of the US was stolen from Mexico, and certain radical elements want it back. The evidence above clearly demostrates that that belief exists, if you chose to disregard it that's OK, but millions of people still believe in it's existence and use the phrase to describe it. It is irelevant who coined the term, it has a common usage and meaning which people clearly recognize.
No Will, I won't. I gave you more than enough info to look them up yourself. All the source info is there. And skeeter, the only "neo-nazi" type stuff is found in connection with mecha and it's ilk. My edits were no worse than yours. I've provided you with just a few of my "some people say" and "some critics" sources, where are yours? You have offered no support for your positions other than the standard "I'm right and everyone who disagrees with me is racist." As far as I'm concerned anyone who wants to delete this article is serving some personal interest. No objective person who has done even a tiny amount of research could conclude that there are no people espousing what is called "reconquista" agenda, an agenda which is clothed in racist nationalistic hispanic diatribe.I don't mind both sides being in the article, but that means real quotes from chicano studies professors who do espouse the views of reconquista. If you want to point out that they use different names for it that's fine- but be honest about it. We can debate about what the level of support is, but there can be no debate about it's existence.
The quotations weren't taken out of context and you know it. The sources are 100% reliable and you know it.It doesn't matter whether it's been proven to your liking the reality is that idea exists and I have proven it to any reasonable standard. BTW- I read the verifiability standards andYou obviously have an you might want to reread them: "understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher," and "Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable or credible sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false." I have easily met these standards. Thanks! axe to grind.
There has already been a debate on this issue, as noted at the top of this page, and this article was deemed a keeper. As one of the contributors to that debate noted, a search on google for reconquista brings 100,000 hits. It is the word which most people, who attempt to discuss this issue , use to describe this position.The article can easily discuss the seperatist position, those within the hispanic community who disagree (or don't care), and what the perception of outside groups looking in is.
It wasn't vandalism- it was truth. You don't like the negative conotations associated with groups like Mecha (are you a member?), but the fact is that the perception is spreading and not just by racist. There is a "reconquista" movement, and we can debate the size and scope but not the existence. To me, you just want to argue about the name and not whether the idea exists, because it's difficult to defend what some of your perceived "comrades" are saying. It's ok to acknowledge that some latinos are racist and nationalistic, because there is ample evidence for it, and you do no diservice to your race by admitting it. Racism/tribal mentatlity, in my opinion, has more to do with every war fought since the beginning of time than religion and maybe even money. Humans are masters of division, we are constantly putting ourselves into groups and subgroups in an effort to set ourselves apart, or distinquish ourselves, from others. Look at any racist organization, they all do the same things: we are different,we need to be unified, we need to push an agenda that supports us, and negative descriptions of those who are perceived as "different": nigger, honky, beaner, gook, whitey, wetback, jungle bunny, cracker, slant eyes, gabacho, spic.
That's fine, but reconquista is the word people are using to describe the concept. As time passes, a one word descrption is more likely to become the chosen descrptive term over a two word description mainly because of ease of usage (the word "goodbye" evolved from "god be with you.") But as long as reconquista is mentioned in the article that's fine. I think it also has to be acknowledged in the article that many mecha members do believe that part of the united states was wrongly taken, or stolen, from Mexico. Because it is true. I have listened to mecha speeches and I have family members who are in it. And that is where I first heard about all of this. That isn't to say all want to take it back, but I can't see any objectively honest way to say that the sentiment doesn't exist within certain segments of the movement.
The article badly needs sources. It seems the last editor fell into the same trap that so many other editors before him fell into, before the article was finally locked. I would edit it myself but I'm having trouble finding any con sources that refer to the reconquista by name. There's more than enough pro sources on the matter but I am not doing a piecemeal edit. I'm also kind of lazy and would prefer to clean up someone else's edit rather than do the HUGE overhaul that the article presently requires. Mosquito-001 00:50, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
As it stands right now, the article claims to document a conspiracy theory held by some group of people. Is there a source that tells me that anyone out there believes this theory and has stated so publically? In short, it's not clear to me that this article is notable. -- Deville ( Talk) 20:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone here believe that "reconquista" is a word familiar to white racists? The phrase (or analogy to the gradual repopulation and reconquest of Moorish Spain) was coined by Mexican writers Elena Poniatowska and Carlos Fuentes. It was partly a joke and partly a distinctly non-racist demographic observation. That is to say, some Mexican intellectuals (neither anti-American) observed similarities between the slow return of Christians to the Iberian peninsula and the reemergence of Mexican culture in the Southwest. Paranoid groups of all stripes appear to have pounced on the word as proof of some sort of Chicano Nationalist plot, or, conversely, a White Supremacist plot to invent a fake plot. This is completely irrelevant to the real and interesting coinage, ie "Reconquista", which describes a real and interesting phenomenon with objective and quantifiable dimensions. (Number of Spanish speakers, diffusion of cuisine and culture, etc.) None of the wikiwriters seem to have the slightest idea what they are talking about. This kind of nonsense discredits the idea of a publicly edited encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.79.49 ( talk • contribs)
I've done a little bit of research (about five minutes worth) and have stumbled across a blog by Glenn Reynolds, professor of Law at the University of Tennessee, hosted on MSNBC.com. I don't really have much time to do more thorough research at the moment, so this will suffice for now.
Within the blog there is an entry published on April 10, 2006 entitled "Annex Mexico?" in which he fights for the rights of illegal immigrants to be granted jobs in America. While doing so, however, he makes mention of the Reconquista movement and attributes the term to those who think that the Southwestern United States should go back to Mexico. I'll try to search more next week when I have more ample time. Blog entires found here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3395977/
However, I should also mention that there is far less information on the term's use in CNN and MSNBC then I originally thought. So while it may still be used by non-racists, it may not be a popular term. And there still isn't verifiable documentation of actual groups or names that strive for this movement. I know that I heard this term mentioned in this way on either MSNBC or CNN weeks ago though. I'll keep searching. -- Jelligraze 20:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The big problem we are having on this article is that both the meaning and the use of the word "Reconquista" are varied: Does it refer to a Mexicanization of the US Southwest peacefully, via repopulation? Or a conspiratorial scheme, possibly including armed insurrection? Fuentes and Poniatowska obviously meant the former. The blog that was recently added as "an opposing view" to the external links section (just beneath the American Patrol EL) credits Glenn Spencer himself as the architect of the conspiratorial definition (although fears of irredentism originally surfaced with the Chicano Movement-btw I left it for the meantime, but I think we'll have to mine that blog for info and sources and remove the link). It is due to the popularization of the term by exclusionists and nationalist groups that conservatives began to use it. So when "mainstream" people like Malkin and Reynolds look at the 2006 U.S. immigration reform protests and Samuel P. Huntington look at the numbers and say "reconquista is happening", they are correct inasmuch as they are observing the reconquista the Mexican intellectuals describe. But they don't make the distinction between the "two reconquistas". To this day there is no record of collusion between the Mexican government and MEChA, the NCLR, or anyone else to reclaim the United States. So the conspiratorial definition remains a conspiracy theory. ("Separatist sentiment", i.e. Chicano nationalism, is a different story entirely.) But the "reconquista" of Fuentes is very real, and ought not to be described as a movement at all, as its political aspects are not organized as such. Hopefully we can work together to straighten this out and create a better article.-- Rockero 00:25, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
The Spanish Reconquista had to do with Christians routing Muslims. Since there is no significant religious rift between Americans and Mexicans, clearly it is about race. If not, then what? You actually think the proponents of the North American Reconquista simply want to reestablish the border based on dated survey claims? Please. Haizum 01:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph in the text is a questionable POV:
The reconquista is not about whether Mexican tribes lived in the US, but about "re-conquering" the land lost to the US after the US-Mexican war. Therefore the analogy with manifest destiny is not valid: manifest destiny was about expanding the US to territories that were not theirs, while the reconquista is about recovering territory that used to belong to Mexico. Itub 23:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Sources given: 1) compares similarities between the hunt for Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan and the hunt 100 years prior for Poncho Villa in Mexico. In no way a source for what is presented here.
2) by Carlos Fuentes, from the article: “True to the barracks mentality dangerously infecting great swaths of Israeli society, Sharon makes no distinction between Yasser Arafat and Osama bin Laden.” This article concerns Israeli/Palestinian politics, no mention is made of Mexico or Reconquista, and the US is mentioned only in passing as a supporter of Israel.
4) Relates to a particularly vulgar article tilted “Jews against Islam: The War of Cartoons” Anti-Semitic, but unrelated to this page or its subject. http://www.aztlan.net/hitler_frank.htm
3) a forum for people who play Star Wars based games, and other related games. Hardly WPRS. Nothing here supports using this as a source, reliable or not. Just a bunch of gamers taking positions on the protests marches. Includes a pro/con discussion of shooting people who illegally cross the border, and whether it’s moral to include women and children, or just men.
5) Alex Jones’s rightwing conspiracy website, where most of this material comes from. Please see the official policy WP:RS This site does not meet the standard set out there.
Brimba 05:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
What we need is a page that describes the actual movement, not just the term. It could either be a reworking of this article, or be a new article called "(something) Irridentism" or similar. This article could then either redirect to it or be a sub-article on terminology. As the article stands now, it reads like some kind of conspiracy theory rather than the actual movement that it is. While we may disagree on how popular it is in the pro-immigration/pro-illegal immigration camp, there should be no doubt as to it's existence. If there are no objections, I will start working on the new article. Happy editing to all, TheKaplan 20:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
It would certainly be appropriate to place something concerning this matter on the La Voz de Aztlan page - Voz de Aztlán - as they published the article. However, their hatred of Jews is immaterial to the subject of this page as it fails to in any way define or enhance the reader’s/user’s understanding of the concept. Beyond that I think Rockero is on the right track. Brimba 06:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the problem you are having, Kaplan, is that you are trying to unite various movements, causes, and organizations with disparate motives and goals under a solitary banner that does not correspond to reality. Your point is well-taken: There has been resistance (military, political, philosophical, etc.) to colonization, American expansionism, and and the assertion of political dominance of other governments in this hemisphere since the beginning of said processes, and while this topic is currently underrepresented on Wikipedia and might deserve its own umbrella article (something along the lines of Indigenous resistance to colonization or some such), the topics it brings up are discussed in various articles: American Indian resistance to US expansionism and domination is found in Indian Wars and its sub-articles and American Indian Movement, for example, Mexican American resistance to the same is (or will eventually be) discussed in the Chicano Movement article, Indigenous resistance to Mexican domination is touched upon in EZLN and elsewhere, while Tupac Amaru might discuss indigenous resistance in Peru. I agree that there are cultural underpinnings of resistance to US/White domination, but I disagree that it constitutes a unified political or social movement. The history and vagaries of the U.S. anti-immigration movement have been documented in sufficient enough detail to account for the various manifestations of said movement throughout history and across a broad geographic range, which allows for greater variety and complexity than I fear would be available for a parallel topic on the resistance "movement", which would lead to an overly-simplistic account of the history and the sentiments that underly it. Such oversimplification leads to reactionary sentiments and actions, where I fear there is a potential for violence. I can only think of a few works that present a synthetic view of indigenous resistance to US hegemony, only two that present such a view of Chicano history, and none that present a view that unites Chicano and indigenous resistance under one umbrella. If our sources don't tell the story that way, our attempts to do so will constitute original research. Thoughts?-- Rockero 23:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Kaplan, in response to your question, "but as a philosophy as well?": The resistance to US hegemony is not a philosophy but a popular sentiment. There may be some ideas that form undercurrents of said sentiment, such as the idea that the Southwestern United States are occupied by an invading power, an emphasis on historical and contemporary instances of racism, and the glorification of a semi-mythical past prior to colonization, for example, but they do not form a unified, coherent philosophy. Again, I ask, what are the reliable sources that present such a view? I still think what you're looking for is the article I propose above, Indigenous resistance to colonization, and I urge you to write it and let me know when you do. Thanks, -- Rockero 20:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Since this article is about the use of the term, rather than the truth of what it describes, shouldn't it mention when the term is used as a nickname? TheKaplan 02:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Even with the columnist, it is still pov pushing, and anyhow not really within the scope of this article on terminology. TheKaplan 04:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Please refrain from making subjective comments in this article. Articles are not forums to say whether a movement is right or wrong, just what it is.
There also seems to be a tendency to try to illegitimize the Reconquista movement by claiming that it is some sort of conspiracy theory or something that was invented by White Supremacists or Neo Nazis to demonize illegal immigrants in the eyes of the public. This is not true and so far, no reliable sources have been given to support such a claim.
It is also unfair to both sides. Such edits not only demonize people who support border security and the enforcement of existing border laws by conflating their views with racism, it writes off supporters of the Reconquista movement as illegitimate.
Objectivity Check 06:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
The Zeskind Article on "The New Nativism" is not a reliable source because it is from an obviously biased magazine article, despite being cited as if it were a journal article. I am leaving it without a good source for now because I'd like some time to find a book or at least an article that isn't from such a partisan publication. It may take a few days.
Objectivity Check 06:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Absolut-- Stor stark7 Talk 16:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Since Glenn Spencer frequently mentions this matter on the American Patrol Report, can www.americanpatrol.com be mentioned here as well? HE claims that this is what is going on in the US. Powerzilla ( talk) 15:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm Mexican, I think the article is OK. but it need like professional words, i don't know how can I say that in english. but is ok, it says the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.148.27.141 ( talk) 22:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
the southwest united states belongs to,if anyone,the peoples who lived in those areas in 1491.the year before the spanish hired columbus to sail west to find a quicker route to india.the native american tribes that inhabited the southwest u.s. were not azteca or any other ancient mexican or central american peoples.the people that lived there were apache and other indigenous tribes that lived within the borders of what is now the u.s.a.and as far as what the map looked like before the mexican american war goes-your saying that it's ok for the spanish ruled mexican gov't,whether they were independant from spain or not,to take the land from the native american clovis people but it's not ok for the engish and dutch americans to take the land from the spanish.since cortez invaded and conquered the land which is now called mexico it has been ruled and controlled by men of spanish descent.if anyone owes an apology to the indigenous people of mexico it's the spanish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.29.190.51 ( talk) 21:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Nothing is being resolved, there's only bickering, so there's really no reason to keep the tag in the entry because it's misleading about any resolution being realistically arrived at. Lothar76 ( talk) 01:43, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I've noticed that Mr. Truxillo has posted an essay on his myspace page detailing his views and his outline for a future Hispanic state. Should this be included since Truxillo is regarded as notable in this field? Or is a myspace page not an acceptable source, even for a University professor? Looking for comments. I'll include the link here: The Inevitability of a Mexicano Nation in the American Southwest & Northern Mexico ( Hyperionsteel ( talk) 04:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC))
Hispanics do not want to be associated with this movement. Hispanics do not want to see the southwest belong to Mexico. Please do not use the word "Hispanic." Use the accurate word "Mexican." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.110.13.114 ( talk) 08:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I've found myself in a disagreement with User talk:CheyenneZ over unsourced material they have repeatedly restored, most recently here. IMO this is a strong, non-neutral opinion which is completely unsourced, and therefore fails WP:NPOV, WP:OR & WP:V. We have previously discussed this here on my talk page, I am about to revert this for the 3rd time, and am hoping to gain consensus regarding this here, that without any sourcing this is inappropriate. If sources are found, I would warn that they should be presented neutrally, as the sourced opinions in the article are... Boogerpatrol ( talk) 13:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Aside from the fact that you have violated the three-revert rule on this page, Boogerpatrol, your editing of certain subjects is based on your opinion. The so-called "sources" you are protecting (and not removing) are all opinions, not facts, and have no relevant basis in historical fact. Stick to a subject you have some rudimentary knowledge of, since you so not seem to have any grasp of historical fact concerning the land of the (present) US Southwest, which is the subject of this article. And,... posting a response to me, in talk, that I am not to reply to your reply to my posting is immature, and does not resolve the issue. CheyenneZ ( talk) 16:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Hispanics came from Europe, the area of the Iberian Peninsula called Hispania. NOT my "opinion", those are the FACTS. Clearly you don't know anything at all about the history of our tribes, or the history of our tribal homelands. Stick to Armenia. CheyenneZ ( talk) 17:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Why are you interjecting your opinion into a subject which you know nothing about, which has nothing to do with Armenia, or Armenians? CheyenneZ ( talk) 17:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Cheyenne, I think you misapprehend what Wikipedia is here for. It's not a place for editors to contribute their own knowledge or experience or beliefs but rather a compendium of information, already written by reliable sources, pulled together in a way that the internet community will find useful. There are several pages that will help you gain a better understanding of the philosophy and principles on which the encyclopedia is based - I suggest, for starters, Wikipedia:Five_pillars. It sort of sets out the lay of the land. There's also WP:Reliable, WP:NPOV and WP:ISNOT - I've found those very helpful in the past too.
I think that until you gain a better understanding of how articles are written, and what's appropriate material for them - not to mention the "whys" of all that - you're going to be frustrated and find yourself talking in circles. Please, go take a look at those links, and follow them to any others you might think are useful. When you're done I think you'll have a better idea of where the other editors on this talk page are coming from. Thanks! JohnInDC ( talk) 18:54, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
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This article should be known as "Greater Mexico". 43.242.178.195 ( talk) 12:46, 2 June 2023 (UTC)