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Sometimes things just snowball. As a moderate I didn't intend for this to become a "hit piece" on Nagin or Blanco. I didn't intend for this to be a compendium of Nagin's incompetence. I intended to have just a few lines that describes the criticism surrounding Nagin was not one way in the interest of balance and a neutral POV. That is the way the paragraph on criticism of Nagin started. At that time the left even denied there was any criticism of Nagin. With the repeated demands to source this and source that, describe this and describe that, the section has gotten ever longer. There are still demands for still more sourcing from political interests. Judging by a quick scan through other Wikipedia articles, the "Dualing Criticism" section is one of the most sourced Wikipedia sections ever. If I were to shorten the section to a length I feel is reasonable I'm sure the cycle would resume all over again and cause it to grow as it has grown to this point. I have no idea how to break the cycle. -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.152 22:40, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Only one? Dont be foolish. It's tautology. The military cannot be used as law enforcement without special ecception. Here is from Reuters:
"The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, enacted during the post-Civil War reconstruction period, prohibits federal military personnel from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States."
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050903/us_nm/military_role_dc_2
Do you have any link to any request by Governor Blanco for the President to suspend Posse Comitatus before her letter on September 2nd? -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.93 23:17, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Criticism from Nagin of others and criticism of Nagin by others is proper here, just as criticism by and criticism of is proper in all bios. Anything less is a violation of Wiki's NPOV requirement. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.82 19:59, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Correcting Revision by 168.20.196.197 made w/o comment here on the discussion page. As always, if you want to make a change explain why you have made the change on this page and with comment in the edit summary. Reverted to previous correct version. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.88 00:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Needed to restore the previous version six times. 168.20.196.197's bad ettiquate of not explaining changes here is bordering on bad faith. His statement Nagin "was not afraid to tell the truth" is very POV. His statement "a better leader" was not only POV, it was out of place in this article on Nagin. Just the facts on Nagin, 168.20.196.197. Thanks. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.88 01:01, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Added the criticism of Nagin's performance, or lack thereof, in his responsibility to keep local order and properly equip and staff his designated evacuation centers. Just as his criticism of others is worthy of inclusion the criticism of the mayor is equally worthy of inclusion. -- Long John Silver
209.247.222.87
23:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
This guy is awesome. He tells it like it is. I like that he cuts through all the B.S. of the government and focuses on people. Bush is saying the results aren't acceptable, Nagin is experiencing this forst hand. As mayor of the city he needs to lead and I think he's doing a great job. People are dying and government organizations keep telling people it will be a few more days. User: 205.142.176.20
I think that Wikipedia ought to ashamed for having the audacity to say that Mayor Nagin is alienating himself by SPEAKING THE TRUTH about the slowness and absolute ridiculousness with reference to the time it is taking to get some relief in New Orleans. Get a grip! Then to have the nerve to compare him to Rudy Guliani during 9/11. The President was in New York almost immediatley following the World-Trade center Disaster and you did not see people sitting and waiting for help to arrive for days, help came immediatley. It is totally unacceptable that we have armed forces train to set up shop in the middle of the jungle if neccessary to provide communication, temporary hospitals and basic needs, yet right here in an American city it has taken a least a week! To make matters worst, 9/11 was not anticipated, Katrina however and the vulnerablility of New Orleans was talked about days before the storm took place. THERE WAS TIME TO PREPARE and the American governmnet is failing miserably. Government officials are trying to politically correct and saying what they feel people want to hear and Nagin, not being a lifelong politician is being upfront and honest and I guess that offends some people. He is passionate because this is his hometown, his people and this is in fact UNACCEPTABLE! There is no reason that FEMA should ot have had officials on site in the Superdome and Convention Center with several bottles of water, food, medical staff, and a seperate room to place dead bodies. I have always felt that I could count on Wikipedia for factual information however, the bias in the last few paragraphs of Ray Nagin's bio is so obvious and that personal opinion has no place on the site.
User:65.1.210.92
I'm wondering what the Posse Comitaus Act has do with anything, considering that there's a dearth of articles that include Governor Blanco's formal request for federal assistance and admittance that recovery efforts were beyond the ability of the state government on 8/27. Also, the quote included from President Bush, is stated to to be "returning Nagin's criticism". I think this is unsubstantiated, and no mainstream media which covered the president's speech implies that President Bush in any blamed the state government of New Orleans. In fact, most write it as though the president conceded that federal relief efforts were not enough. Lastly, I don't see why the ridiculous, unsubstantiated claim about the Nagin not using schoolbuses to save people is still here, supported by a picture, of all things, of schoolbuses that don't even belong to the city. -- Jentizzle 18:15, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
It's inaccurate to make an absurdly generalized statement like "the lawlessness was put down" on September 2nd when many news anchorpeople and eyewitnesses reporting the same day claim the opposite. The Posse Comitaus Act is still COMPLETELY irrelevant, since Governor Blanco formally requested federal assistance August 27, and furthermore, you cannot produce a source which supports the claim that she kept "FEMA, Red Cross and Salvation Army at bay". Until you do, none of this belongs in the article. -- Jentizzle 19:03, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Wrong. Under the Act the Governor MUST specifically request the military come into her state. Requesting "assistance" without outlining what assistance is required isn't close to satisfying that requirement. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.82 04:56, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Wrong yet again. Are you ever right? The Red Cross has said this many times. In fact the situation is even worse than I described. The State Homeland Security Department under Blanco as influenced by Nagin still won't allow Red Cross to provide relief. Here's the Red Cross' statement:
From: http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html#4524
"The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.82 04:56, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Can we agree the paragraph about Mike Brown doesn't belong in Ray Nagin's bio? If yes, it can be deleted and we can get beyond the lack of understanding of posse comitatus in at least that section. Assuming we can dispense with it I'm deleting it. Someone can always reinsert it. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.99 01:02, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The article keeps saying he is making "furious" remarks. I think some of these remarks should be quoted, like the legendary "Pardon my French, but I'm pissed" comment. Mike H (Talking is hot) 20:08, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
I attempted to add a link to the audio (provided by WWL 870) of host Garland Robinette's interview with Mayor Nagin, but it seems to have been expunged. The link I inserted was obtained from WWL's Audio Blog. Was this considered POV, or was the edit not accepted because the page is under POV review? While CNN's transcript includes his words, the audio, if deemed an acceptable/legal link communicates quite a bit more emotional content, which is factual, is it not? Ddabbs 20:20, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
This article sucks now and was much better yesterday. What happened? The timeline abruptly ends on the 28th? It didn't before. The Hurricane Katrina sure didn't end there. If I find the version I like I'm restoring it. -- Swamp Foxx 138.162.0.43 15:07, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Folks,
This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, a compendium of facts. Please do not make value judgements, even via implication, and especially not of current events, within entries. (That's what the discussion area is for.) The devastation and aftermath of Hurrciane Katrina is not the same as the devastation and aftermath of 9/11. When the towers fell, that was the worst of the damage, and as bad as it was, it got no worse. At the time of this writing, conditions in New Orleans have grown steadily worse in the (four?) days since Katrina hit. Comparisons to Rudolph Juliani are not helpful. Let's review Nagin's actions and words later, when we're not so close to the actual crisis.
That said, have some mercy on Mayor Nagin and his comments. Bear in mind that he's very, very tired and extremely frustrated at what has to be at this point one of the hardest jobs in the country right now. He knows that no matter what happens, he will get blamed for it; nonetheless he's refusing to give up the lives of those people still stranded. Imagine if you were in his shoes, how would you react? How would you bear up under that kind of pressure? On a matter of principle, I loathe nearly all politicians, but this guy's really starting to grow on me.
FYI, I've stripped out that last, overtly political nasty paragraph. If someone cares to replace it with today's *facts* about Nagin, feel free.
67.34.192.152 20:18, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
The fact is Nagin made these comments. It is not a value judgement to report the statement he made. It is a statement of fact. Similarly, reporting criticism of the mayor is also a statement of fact. Suppression of relevant facts in an attempt to provide a neutral judgement is improper. Should the article on Hitler be rewritten because he was under strain? I don't think so. -- Long John Silver
209.247.222.87
23:22, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
There have been more details added since I deleted the incendiary paragraph. These are factual in nature, I can't dispute them. I won't dispute that he's made angry comments; he most certainly did. The portions that I deleted made political, editorial comment, comparing Nagin post Katrina to Juliani post 9/11. That's not the function of an encyclopedia, that's the function of a news magazine, or more hopefully, for serious study. Save it for your blog. If the facts of history are clear enough, judgements should be straightforward, viewed through the lens of passing time. This brings me to your Hitler comment; it's a rather cogent point, but there's a big distinction. There's no new information about Hitler lately; if there were, I would certainly support changes to his article.
Let me make things a little clearer. I would likewise and for the same reason be disturbed if the article stated how wonderful a job he is doing down there. I personally think he's doing a good job, but to include such a value judgement in a factual, encylopedic entry, would be irresponsible. I'd delete it if I saw it. There are different types of writing for different purposes; while the nature of Wikipedia allows on-the-fly changes to reflect real world events, it would be a mistake to believe that this makes it either a news site, and especially not a soap box for popular (or even not so popular) opinion. Does that make sense? Thanks for the response. 68.158.160.176 06:27, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, and we seem to be in agreement with what should be included in this article. I didn't see the section comparing Giuliani's post 9/11 response to Nagin's but acknowledge it would be difficult to write such a section without injecting POV. The statement 'Nagin has been criticized over no MRE's or anti-biotics at the Superdome' is fact. The statement 'Nagin is incompetent for his poor disaster planning reflected at the Superdome and elsewhere' is analysis and opinion. You won't see any of the latter type statement from me nomatter how correct I hold it to be. -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.122 17:21, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I would really like to see sources which support the claim that the federal assistance was only requested on September 2. There's really nothing that backs it up, and there are certainly a lot of newspaper articles out there from August 28 that state that both the governor and mayor requested federal assistance that very day.-- Jentizzle 08:59, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Found a source for the opposing claim, that federal assistance was requested well before September 2nd. A press release from Governor Blanco's site dated August 27, 2005 includes the full text of her request to president, asking him not only to declare a state of emergency in Louisiana, but to provide federal assistance as she believed the incident to be of "such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments" [1]. -- Jentizzle 10:21, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Reference, please. No sources of any journalistic credibility have been supplied which state that either the governor or the mayor of New Orleans requested federal assistance as late as September 2. -- Jentizzle 19:05, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Here you go, from Blanco's own website where she makes here specific request of President Bush on September 2, 2005. [2] Your extreme partisanship is transparant. The letter reads:
"Date: 9/2/2005
Contact:Denise Bottcher or Roderick Hawkins at 225-342-9037
Letter from Governor Blanco to President Bush
September 2, 2005
The President The White House Washington, D.C.
Dear Mr. President:
Let me first thank you for your leadership during this unprecedented natural disaster. Your pledge of assistance for the initial and long-term recovery efforts is reflective of the tremendous outpouring of support by the citizens of our great country. Although we have been dealt a devastating blow, I can assure you Louisiana will recover, rebuild, and restore our communities.
Based on our initial assessment, I have previously requested significant federal support to include: an additional 40,000 troops; trailers of water, ice and food; commercial buses; base camps; staging areas; amphibious personnel carriers; deployable morgues; urban search and rescue teams; airlift; temporary housing; and communications systems. Even if these initial requests had been fully honored, these assets would not be sufficient to address our critical, immediate needs. Additional assistance requirements for the federal government are outlined below. As we continue to assess our needs, I will ensure you receive our updated requirements.
I request the expeditious return of the Headquarters of the 256th Brigade Combat Team as they have completed their mission in the Iraqi theatre of operations and they are urgently needed here at home. I request that you remission this unit to Louisiana where they will become part of the recovery efforts in their home state. As the remainder of the Brigade returns, I request that they be missioned by the Department of Defense to assist civil authorities in Hurricane Katrina recovery operations in Louisiana.
To increase the responsiveness of our humanitarian relief operations, FEMA should establish a second Operational Staging Base (OSB) in Baton Rouge. Currently we have only one OSB in Pineville. Establishment of a second OSB will cut in half the response time to our most affected parishes. This will raise our local distribution points from 21 to 35, significantly increasing our support to the neediest citizens. Our current requirement for water, ice and MREs is 100 trucks of each per day; our requirement will increase to 200 trucks of each per day when we increase local distribution points.
Our communications grid was devastated and we need significant assistance in restoring governmental communications. The reestablishment of cell phone coverage and public safety networks is necessary to establish communications among governmental officials at all levels and among response agencies. The radio system that is currently operational in the greater New Orleans area was designed to support 800 users; there are currently 2500 users. To address the radio communications requirements, we need additional frequencies: 25 800-MHz trunking repeaters, tower crews, 1000 portable radios, three hundred-foot tower trailers, and additional BellSouth and Motorola staff. I also require additional staffed mobile command centers that provide satellite uplink to support additional voice and data needs at public safety and governmental sites.
I want aerial and ground firefighting support to address the growing danger of fire. This support should include both equipment and trained personnel.
A critical element of our military response is equipment, particularly vehicles. As military units are flown in to assist us in our recovery efforts, I request a fleet of military vehicles that will remain in the affected areas. Therefore, I am requesting access to military trucks, HMMWVs and other vehicles. Fort Polk, Louisiana, has a prepositioned fleet of military vehicles that could be accessed very quickly; however, there may be other sources that may be available quicker.
I request 175 generators to enable the parishes to provide electricity for critical local operations and state offices to better support affected citizens. As I review this requirement with our parishes, this number will undoubtedly increase. I need additional diesel fuel supplies.
Preventative health is a priority to prevent the spread of disease. Our state medical team is currently assessing these requirements; I need considerable personnel, equipment, drugs, vaccines and other medical supplies.
We have experienced a significant loss of life and as we transition from our initial emphasis on search and rescue, we require assistance with mortuary affairs. It is my pledge to the citizens of Louisiana that we will conduct this task with as much dignity as possible; to accomplish this I need federal assets to work closely with state and local officials.
Livestock and other animals were also victims of this tragic storm. I need assistance to deal with injured animals and also with animal remains.
Mr. President, only your personal involvement will ensure the immediate delivery of federal assets needed to save lives that are in jeopardy hour by hour. I know you will take the actions necessary to make this happen. As the recovery efforts continue, I will provide you a reassessment of needs. Again, thank you for your support of the citizens of Louisiana.
Sincerely,
Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor
State of Louisiana"
How does this take precedence as a "formal request" for federal assistance over the governor's request on August 27? Perhaps I'm actually woefully misinformed, and SOMEONE can explain how the request made August 27 restricted federal efforts? Keeping FEMA "at bay"? Since you bothered to bold the sentence where the 256th Brigade Combat Team is called for, I assume you take this to be something other than a request for ADDITIONAL assistance. -- Jentizzle 19:50, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
How is this letter of request to the President from the Governor outlining specifics and requesting her national guard be placed under the control of the Department of Defense as required under the Posse Comitatus Act anything but a formal request? Can you show us where else the Governess requested the President place her National Guard under DoD control as required under Federal Law? Can you tell us where else she requested any specific other than the non-existant (under law) "expedited disaster zone" that had already been accomplished? Can you show us how the Nagin and Blanco had brought civil order to a state where FEMA could deliver services before the Governess turned over control of her National Guard to the DoD? As to your question, you apparantly still have your head in the sand over the Posse Comitatus Act. All you need to is follow the link I've provided numerous times to correct that. --Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 20:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
How is your comment "correcting partisan lies" anything more than questions in response to questions? Furthermore, I've already apologized for the accidental (may have been intentional on your part) edits regarding the Posse Comitataus Act which resulted out the fact that you and I were making edits to the article at the same time. If I indeed removed it, it was accidental.
However, you ARE NOT ANSWERING my above question about how the request made September 2nd is anything but a request for additional assistance. I never disputed whether or not this second request was formal, and I have no idea why you bothered to pick up on that. By "taking precedence" over the first request, I meant that you implied that the first request was NOT formal, and restricted FEMA and/or other federal authorities in some way. Otherwise I don't understand why you keep removing information about this request being sent to President Bush, in addition to a later request for additional support September 2.
With regard to your irrelevant remarks about the governor of mayor of New Orleans bringing "civil order," I would only ask why supplies could not have been airlifted. And I could care less that you believe yourself a "moderate". -- Jentizzle 20:14, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
"The city had not sent police or other vehicles through the poorest neighborhoods with evacuation announcements prior to the storm."
There are several sources in the article. If you have any sources that suggest their were street by street evacuation announcements? -- Long Jon Silver
12.74.187.152
22:11, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
"Additionally, the city stored the school buses on low ground where they were flooded and then not available for evacuation."
The city and especially the mayor is responsible for the school busses. The picture and caption are clear to all but the most partisan. It stays. -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.152 22:11, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
What in the world? Again, the bit about Governor Blanco's FIRST request, before September 2 has been removed, under the pretense of "fixing incorrect info". Whether or not you thought it was was useless, it still NEEDS TO BE AT LEAST MENTIONED in the article. -- Jentizzle 22:06, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Look, here is President Bush's honoring Blanco's nonsense even 1 day ahead of her "request."
From: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html
For Immediate Release Office of the Press Secretary August 27, 2005
Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana
The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.
The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.
Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding.
Representing FEMA, Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response, Department of Homeland Security, named William Lokey as the Federal Coordinating Officer for Federal recovery operations in the affected area.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: FEMA (202) 646-4600.
-- Long John Silver 12.74.187.152 22:22, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
You gotta give the guy credit for being truthful. I really get the impression that he is working as hard as he can on this issue at this time. It would be good to have more politicians like this.
If he were honest he would have explained why as mayor he failed to equip his designated evacuation point with cots, MRE's, water or medication. Cheers. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.88 02:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
the Superdome in fact was stocked with MREs, and Water. -- 66.92.144.73 02:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
"...Nagin continued his controversial criticism of authorities"
I haven't heard any controversy over his statements. Most people seem to think he's pissed off and rightly so. -- Kennyisinvisible 22:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
The problem that, like you, few people have heard the other side of this story - criticism of the mayor - is why I added the facts about his problems in equipping his designated evacuation center and keeping local order. Cheers. -- Long John Silver
209.247.222.87
23:25, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Could someone give us a source for that last paragraph? All we have is a jpeg file of... something.
I've pasted the paragraph below, and am moving it to this talk page till we can get some sort of backing for this.
This is an amalgam of criticism of the mayor in the NY Post, by the FEMA director, by Rep. Billy Tauzan(R-LA) and by the New Orleans Times-Picayune. There is also a great deal of criticism of the Governor but it doen't belong here. It belongs in the article on Blanco. I'm re-adding the paragraph. The last image is a link that came from the Associated Press and is available with a caption here
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015 . The link has been changed to the version with caption for those who will not see. -- Long John Silver
12.74.187.122
16:21, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Lt Gen Russel Honore, Commander Joint Katrina Task Force, FoxNews 13:43 Eastern Time September 3, 2005 Just reconfirmed all that was here including the lack of radios. I'm re-adding the paragraph. If you want the transcript I'm sure Burrell's will sell it to you. -- Long John Silver
12.74.187.122
17:45, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
All you need to do is look at any article on conditions at the Superdome to know there were no MRE's and no stored water. If you do a little searching you'll find articles describing how there were no drugs stored at the evacuation center and how there were even medical personnel left because they did not feel secure. Of course, these are serious charges. But the criticism is a fact whether the content of the criticism can be explained away or not. As yet no one has disproved any element within the series. Can you prove, for example, the New Orleans Police force and other New Orleans first responders has adequate radio communications? Can you provide any other evidence any element of criticism was baseless? If you can your evidence should be added to the article. You shouldn't try to suppress the fact he mayor has been criticized. -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.122 18:16, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Are you in a news blackout? Did you watch Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff's news conference that just ended? Again the criticism of the failure of local government first responders was reiterated. Nagin didn't have only a couple days to prepare, BTW. He had since his election in 2002. As the leder New Orleans' first responders it was Nagin's responsibility, along with whatever city commission New Orleans has, to equip the evacuation centers. It was Nagin's responsibility along with the police, fire and EMT commissioners to ensure proper backup communications were secured. FEMA always follows as relief to the first responders. They are not and cannot be the primary tool. They need to mobilize. Local emergency services are mobilized and on scene. No one know New Orleans like New Orleaneans. No one knows Miami like Miamians. No one knows New York like New Yorkers. Need I remind you who the first responders were on 9/11? You'll find a memorial to many of them at Ground Zero. But I'd like to say Nagin is not alone in culpability in the failure of the first responders. LA's Gov Blanco, for example, had only 3000 of the available 8000 Louisiana National Guard troops standing at ready [6]. However, that fact belongs in the article on Blanco, not Nagin. -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.122 18:58, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Including the transcript would make this article that is supposed to be a biography, not a compendium of Nagin's incompetence, ridiculously long. It's quite clear you have your head in the sand on the first responder failures and would not have listened had you even heard Chertoff's criticism. Former LA Senator Livingstone just expanded the criticism of Nagin and Blanco by saying he pleaded with them to declare martial law at the same time Mississippi's Governor did - Monday. They didn't declare it until Thursday well after the looting, raping and murdering had been well underway. I'm sure you didn't hear that either. If you ever release the article from your edit conflict lock you'll get yet several more links. They will make the bio look foolishly long and lopsided but that's what you foolishly demamded. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.91 20:41, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Nagin's performance in the Hurricane Katrina crisis has been criticized as well and Nagin has been accused of deflection. As mayor he was responsible for establishing evacuation centers and keeping local order. Yet apparantly there were no meals ready to eat (MRE's) stored at his designated evacuation center - the
Superdome. There was no water purification equipment on site, no chemical toilets, anti-biotics or anti-diarrheals stored for a crisis. The mayor had not designated any medical staff to work the evacuation center. The city had not established a secure sick bay within the Superdome. The city had not sent police or other vehicles through the poorest neighborhoods with evacuation announcements prior to the storm. Additionally, the city stored the school buses on low ground where they were flooded and then not available for evacuation.
[7]
The quote "Mayor Ray Nagin and Governor Kathleen Blanco lost whatever fragile authority they ever had over New Orleans early Monday, as the waters still rose." from the City Journal [8] is being used out of context. The article tries to establish that the pre-existing crime problem in New Orleans and not the desperation of the victims was the main cause for the looting and lawlessness in the wake of hurricane Katrina. I believe the point of the quote in the article was that the mayor and the governor lost their authority in the city because the police was unable to perform their duties due to the flood waters and the loss of communications. The way it was used in the wikipedia article makes it appear that the City Journal made all the criticisms in the last paragraph. 129.67.54.135 04:01, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Not true. The Mayor and Governor have been responsible for crime control in New Orleans all along. That they failed in their responsibility before Katrina and that made the situation more difficult does not absolve them of their failures during the storm. -- Long John Silver
209.247.222.81
16:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
The quote from Mayor Nagin in
[9] cannot be used to support the criticisms that there were no emergency provisions in the Superdome, for the simple reason that the convention center isn't the same thing as the Superdome.
129.67.54.135
04:01, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
None of the above hair-splitting matters. It's clear the mayor is responsible for the planning and preparation of evacuation centers. The mayor is responsible for leading local order. The mayor is responsible for the performance of the first responders. Mayors have always been responsible for the order in their cities nomatter how much certain partisan interests would like to pin lawlessness in New Orleans on the President. The paragraph discusses the criticism of Nagin, not the criticism of the use of the Superdome. Nagin's criticism of others is as valid in this article as the criticism of Nagin. The paragraph got too lopsided against Nagin with the justifications some with a politcal motivation wanted to see, however, so I've truncated it. But that being said, Nagin has criticized others, others have criticized Nagin - both belong in this encapsulated bio of Nagin. Facts are facts as unplesant as they may e for certain people with partisan interests. That's just the way it is. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.85 04:41, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
You mentioned Nagin and Blanco waiting until Thursday to declare martial law but Nagin said in the radio interview that he had already tried to declare it and that he did not know if Blanco was going to declare it or not. Also, FEMA trucks being there before the hurricane would have done nothing. If that had been the case you'd just have a bunch of FEMA trucks under water along with everything else. And if someone is willing to call Nagin incompetent (which they have right to do) you must also ask why the federal government was so slow to recognize the incomptence and instead sit on their hands because "technically" Bush needed Blanco to say pretty please with sugar on top.
Nagin does/did not have authority to declare martial law under the Posse Comitatus Act. Blanco failed him, but he failed the city in lashing out in his flail against the federal government instead of pinning the blame where it belonged. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 16:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Temporarily moved the paragraph below until the link provided actually supports the statements made in the paragraph. I can't seem to find any mention of a request for federal aid in
[14]
129.67.54.135
22:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Also moving this paragraph since it doesn't really belong to this article. Perhaps it should go here. 129.67.54.135 22:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Fox News is the one and only one in major news coverage to place the blame on both Nagin and Blanco. Fox News failed to mention about the responsiblity of Alabama and Mississippi's governors failure of saving their states. You realize that Louisiana's governor is Democrat and New Orleans mayor is now a Democrat. Fox seems to lack their coverage of how many people are still trapped in the city. Fox News has not ever had the pleasure of interviewing Nagin or Blanco. I guess they knew that Fox News was going to entertain their conservative audience by placing blame on those who carry less power than the people at Washington. So now that Fox knows what going on at the local and state level, they need to go after the neighboring states. Of course, Nagin is in a crisis, Blanco is in a crisis, and Bush is in DC trying to make more a publiciity by giving money to these states. Of course, other countries are trying to help and Bush is refusing most of them! Fox News failed to state that the late response time from FEMA, the Bush Administration's role, and of course, the refugee and looters comments, alongside Alabama and Mississippi's non-stop crisis, too! I'm not too thrilled with Fox News coverage. LILVOKA 2005 September 7 13:35
I would like to nominate this article to be reviewed for compliance with the NPOV standard. I am worried that the tone of the last paragraph, especially its last sentence, is excessively angry. Perhaps someone can think of a way to reword it or add more useful information. Optimusnauta 04:55, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
As of now the last paragraph's last sentence is:
"The media had reported the situation days before but without a request for assistance from the Governor federal officials were powerless to act under the Posse Comitatus Act."
This article has undergone several revisions given that left wing forces are trying to blame's the mayor's and Governor's poor planning on President Bush. Is this the sentence you were referring to? If yes, do you have relevant facts that absolve the Governor from her requirements under the Posse Comitatus Act? Or, do you have evidence she satisfied those requirements well before the reported meeing on Friday? Or, do you have some facts that suggest Brown would have been acting within his authority if he violated the Law and provided assistance prior to the incompetent Governor's request? It's clear the Governor failed mayor Nagin in not formally requesting help. It's also clear Nagin also failed his city by not demanding that request for federal help from the Governor. - -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 16:21, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
For the heck of it, I'm going to second on the fact this needs to have a NPOV check. It seems like certain people are pushing an agenda with their writing. Those that are, need to post that in a blog somewhere else. I agree it's not easy to try to write something neutral, but if it's not kept that way, Wikipedia will turn into a mess. ( Davidpdx)
Agreed, if it should be there at all it should be in its own section of criticisms, but as of now there isn't any real need to make a rebuttal against, the rest of the page doesn't have any real positive spin, the timeline merely states what he has done. The entire paragraph obvious tries to lay blame of the entire disaster on Nagin. It should be deleted as it tries to editorialize. ( 64.142.28.90)
Why he would let his own people die in New Orleans, is only a true fact about him, he already admitted to evacuate the entire city. He admits the Superdome was unsafe, if he did nothing could get him in trouble, but he insists he has no doubt about the people dying in New Orleans. I know how many black people (only poor) now blame the mayor.
Regards, (65.54.xxx.xxx)
This article is relatively NPOV, considering he has become famous overnight, but I'm not sure why anyone would want to critize Nagin's mayoral efforts or his blunt commentary...I think the man is rightfully pissed off. Here are facts from someone that knows about logistics:
Then the mayor didn't plan for a broken levee when they've known there could be a levee problem for years? That's even greater incompetence than I've charged -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 18:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
His greatest anger should be self anger -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 18:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
This absolves the mayor from his poor planning how? -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 18:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
The federal government helps in crisis only after posse comitatus requirements are satisfied by an official request from the governor. The federal government does act on their own property in National Parks and etc. Are you faulting them for not saving the New Orleans post office? -- Long John Silver
209.247.222.81
18:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
The list is endless, but I really don't see much evidence of Nagin being very much a part of the problem. So long as the article remains NPOV report it all, the good, the bad and the ugly.-- MONGO 04:25, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
I've now added the NPOV tag to this article.-- MONGO 04:39, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
I think you can't say it's non-NPOV, because it's quotation. If you follow the rule,that putting quotation is non-NPOV you will end up with conclusion, that all quotations in wikipedia must be deleted because they are non-NPOV.
Krakers
The fact there is criticism, is well justified by the huge volume of links here all with the same takeaway point. Nagin wasn't prepared despite warnings and his 3 years in office. Your singling out one of a dozen links is a diversion. That criticism is balanced by Nagin's criticism of President Bush. The balance provides neutrality. NPOV is not deserved. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 18:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is government at all levels horribly failed the people affected by hurricane Katrina. 4+ days for suitable reinforcements? No matter what side of the fence one stands that response is flat out inexcusable and shameful.
Ndog
Jentizzle and 209.247.222.81 keep removing (1) Governor Blanco's August 28 letter to President Bush requesting extensive federal relief, [16]; (2) this quote from Bush's 8/27 declaration of a state of emergency [17]: The president's "action authorize[d] the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts . . . ."; (3) this link and quote from the Department of Homeland Security website: "In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility . . . for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort." [18]; (4) this quote from, and link to, the National Response Plan issued by the Department of Homeland Security in December 2004, which states, on page 43, under the "Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response," that "Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude." [19]
In place of all of this, 209.247.222.81 adds POV (his/her unsupported legal opinions) regarding the purported insufficiency, under the Posse Comitatus Act, of Gov. Blanco's request. I will leave this alone for now lest I run afoul of the 3RR rule, but this substitution of the user's POV for fact is a gross violation of Wikipedia policy. Krakatoa 19:14, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to clarify that I didn't direct any of my changes at the information above. Rather, I addressed other POV issues in the article. In the midst of editing the page, 209.247.222.81 was also editing the page, and I assume, removed the above information. -- Jentizzle 19:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Then it was completely unintentional, and I apologize. This is, of course, in reference to those edits alone. There were at least two incidents, however, in which Long John Silver reinserted information about city schoolbuses which supposedly could have been used to evacuate people, and supported this with a jpeg of schoolbuses belonging to some entity other than the city, underwater. We were in the midst of editing the article at the same time, probably making opposing edits (whatever) that means with regard to the schoolbuses and other POV statements. -- Jentizzle 20:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
209.247.222.81 (aka Long John Silver) is at it again -- deleting factual statements and supporting links and substituting his unsupported Posse Commitatus crap. This is a flagrant violation of the NPOV policy. I'm sure he has also massively violated the 3RR rule. This guy should be banned. Krakatoa 20:49, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I just reverted out his edits again. The removal of large quantities of direct quotes couples with insertion of personal Posse Comatatus theories is POV. I am not sure whether the NPOV warning should remain, I just reverted. -- Gorgonzilla 20:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the criticism of Nagin's reaction to the hurricane is unfair, city mayors are not chosen for their ability to react to this type of crisis. It is very clear that no amount of reaction by the local authorities could have changed matters much. Even with the benefit of hindsight.
The planning for the huricane season is an entirely different issue. The plan for evacuating people without cars was to make a DVD to tell them they were on their own. [23]
-- Gorgonzilla 21:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
More criticism that seems justified. Claims that the CIA are trying to kill him [http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46134], lack of planning [24]
-- Gorgonzilla 21:58, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
So you're talking to yourself about a source no one used? Amazing. The Mayor has always been responsible for civil order in his city. New Orleans isn't the President's city it's Nagin's. That's just the way it is. I have no sockpuppets, BTW. Apparantly you're wrong yet again. That's getting to be a habit with you, isn't it?-- Long John Silver
209.247.222.99
01:42, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The Posse Comatatus reasoning that LJS keeps trying to insert is idiotic. IF there was an issue there the federal authorities still have the responsibility for explaining how to get the request made in the correct form. The President can in any case waive Posse Comitatus so the blame would appear to be on Bush rather than Nagin if Posse Comitatus did in fact prevent aid. -- Gorgonzilla 22:36, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
A search for "Posse Comitatus blanco" returns only one hit on Google News. [25] With Nagin only one hit as well. with Katrina there are 24 hits, which is not very many for the biggest story running. None of the stories remotely support the interpretation being pushed by LJS. -- Gorgonzilla 23:26, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I have no idea how so many people can be so ignorant and so wrong. Yet a simple search on Yahoo for Posse Comitatus and katrina reveals 27 links:
http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=%22posse+comitatus%22+katrina&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&x=wrt
And a search of posse comitatus and hurricane reveals 30 links: http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=%22posse+comitatus%22+hurricane&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&x=wrt
One of the links is a federal government briefing on katrina: http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=4779
In that briefing Deputy Homeland Security Department Secretary McHale says:
"For the past 125 years, approximately, it has been the public policy of our nation, reflected in numerous statutes, but most particularly the posse comitatus statute, that our active duty military forces ordinarily do not engage in law enforcement activity. We've decided, as a matter of public policy, that our police officers will normally protect us. Our law enforcement officials will provide the security that we reasonably expect. And so, in this circumstance, and all circumstances, we turn, first and foremost, to civilian law enforcement to protect the American people.
The Department of Defense does have statutory authority to provide assistance, military support to civilian law enforcement authorities, and that often involves training and equipment and other forms of assistance that enable police officers to better do their jobs.
And under truly extraordinary circumstances, occurring once in a generation typically, when there's a civil disturbance, the President does have the legal authority to make certain declarations and use the active duty military to restore civil order. And so there are things that we in the Department of Defense can do to contribute to that climate of safety and security." -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.99 00:58, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
A user with IP addresses 12.74.187.152 and 209.247.222.81 has made repeated revert edits to insert a crackpot POV argument involving Posse Comitatus that appears to be his own personal theory, it certainly is not supported by any citations. The poster also edits the article to remove content that is critical of the Federal disaster relief efforts. The net result is POV. These collectively violate WP:NFN - Wikipedia is not FOX News-- Gorgonzilla 22:42, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Here we go with your name-calling again. "Crackpot?" The Governor controls the National Guard under posse comitatus. That's a fact whether you like it or not. I haven't cited FoxNews as a source once. I've provided sources from the AP, Washington Post, CNN, and even Governor Blanco's official website. Weren't you recently cited for lies as well as name-calling? -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.152 22:59, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Amen to Gorgonzilla's request. Krakatoa 22:48, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
User Corwin8 appears to now be attempting to make the exact same edit, most likely a sockpuppet of LJS. Somewhat ironically I have been planning to edit in a set of criticisms of Nagin that do appear to be well founded but have not found notable citations to back them yet because I have been reverting these POV edits. -- Gorgonzilla 00:48, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
A poster calling himself 'Honest Abe' using the same Level 3 IP block has been making a similar series of tendentious POV edits to Able Danger, exact same modus operandi, replacement of entire article with a parallel article, use of sockpuppets to push POV. The user description for Corwin8 states that he is a political consultant. Perhaps these edits are paid work for one of his clients. -- Gorgonzilla 01:33, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I have another issue with an edit LJS made to the "Criticism of Nagin" section. It was claimed that "a sick bay had not been established in the Superdome" and that there were no medical staff. Though I don't dispute that even if there were medical staff, there certainly wasn't an adequate number, This CNN story covering the conditions at the Superdome say there was some some sort of medical staff as well as a "medical shelter" [26]. -- Jentizzle 04:19, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The press release including the full text of Governor Blanco's first request for federal assistance is dated August 27 [27]. There's a .pdf which states that date is August 28. However, both NOLA [28] and FEMA [29] indicate that this request was received on the 27th.
-- Jentizzle 23:12, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Both these links are irrelevant. The first goes to an article regarding Gov. Blanco's request for relief concerning Tropical Storm Cindy on July 27. The second link, as you correctly quote it, refers to a request from the Governor of Florida. Gov. Blanco is the governor of Louisiana, not Florida. Krakatoa 00:39, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976 -- Jentizzle 01:04, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I somehow overlooked your first link. I don't know whether (a) the letter in fact went out on the 27th, as stated in the press release, or (b) went out on the 28th, the date on the PDF. Maybe her office was tinkering with the language or something and it didn't actually go out until the next day. I don't know. The fact that the press release gives the entire letter -- obviously cut-and-pasted into the press release -- with an August 27 date, but the actual signed letter is dated August 28, suggests to me that theory b is more likely correct. Krakatoa 01:11, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Theory B is probably correct. The press relese went out on the 27th while the letter went ut on the 28th. One can only wonder if there was a political calculus to this. But what is still clear is President Bush responded before even receiving the request. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.99 01:16, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Either way President Bush put FEMA on alert 27 August. IOW he honored her one and only request until her next on September 2nd and honored that one also putting down the disturbance locals couldn't control on September 3rd - one day later. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.93 23:34, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
You have any estimate on how long it would have taken Nagin to get control of his city so FEMA and NGO's could pass out relief? Fortunatly no one had to wait that long since Blanco finally requested realized the state's incompetence on September 2. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.99 02:02, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Since this IP address block has previously made the same types of edit to Able Danger and LJS called me a NAZI, can't we just get a block on the /24? -- Gorgonzilla 02:20, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The POV edit that the sockpuppets have been reverting to contains a quotation:
City-Journal summarized their criticism this way, "Mayor Ray Nagin and Governor Kathleen Blanco lost whatever fragile authority they ever had over New Orleans early Monday {August 29, 2005}, as the waters still rose."
This is used in a completely different context to the original article which actually discusses the pre-disaster city. -- Gorgonzilla 01:07, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Nobody agrees with your crackpot posse comitatus theory nobody, it has been disproved -- Gorgonzilla 02:18, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The POV peddling 209.xxx has now reverted twenty times. His MO seems to be to keep repasting his POV version as a revert. -- Gorgonzilla 02:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Posse comitatus does not apply here. What the article needs to be corrected to include is The Stafford Act [31]. Under Stafford, the President is authorized "to utilize the resources of the Department of Defense for the purpose of performing on public and private lands any emergency work which is made necessary by such incident and which is essential for the preservation of life and property".
Now, under Stafford, in times of major disaster, only the state Governor can request federal troops from the President for assistance and aid. The President cannot just decide to send in troops during a national disaster - that's illegal under Stafford, and/or posse comitatus (it gets fuzzy here). The Governor specifically has to request troops. The President can't send them in on his own authority just because a state of emergency has been declared. While Ray Nagin was wrong to demand federal troops, Governor Kathleen Blanco properly requested federal support under Stafford on August 27 [32].
Not to change the subject, but posse comitatus is not a constitutional prohibition, and has been weakened by further legislation. But it still does not apply here. The real issue, that CNN is already starting to pick up, is that Louisiana is listed as the 3rd most corrupt state in the USA [33]. Just do a Google on Louisiana and corruption [34]. Corwin8 03:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Nagin was elected as the least conspicuously corrupt candidate. Which is much better than par for the course in LA politics. -- Gorgonzilla 04:33, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, Nagin was elected on a hard and fast campaign to eliminate corruption. Unfortunately, that set him up as an outsider - and outsiders, despite the best of intentions, often have a challenging task in finding where the really deep muck is (theory vs. practice, yada yada). Still, the fact that Louisiana politicans have been sent to jail is a good sign. Corwin8 05:30, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I took a look at some other LJS handiwork. in particular he has been taking redirect articles such as First responder and inserting his usual gratuitous POV B/S. There is no excuse for inserting editorialized POV like this into a basic article that has absolutely no need to refer to on ongoing current event. This is a very serious and subtle form of vandalism. He has also engaged in abuse of WP:NPA, calling people 'National Socialists' and 'liars', he also appears to have vandalized the Fucked Company article -- Gorgonzilla 04:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
One of his IP addresses inserted the phrase 'White Supremacy' into the MLK article, apparently when it was assigned to him. [35]
Both Mayor Ray Nagin and Governor Kathleen Blanco hired P.R. consultants on Monday, September 5, to help their public image through this situation. This also includes handling their image as represented on the Internet. Typically, this has been restricted to blogging, but I'm wondering if they have recognized Wikipedia as a white-washing area? The Wikipedia entry for Nagin keeps having his criticisms downplayed (maybe Blanco's, too?). Does Wiki have a method of tracking these sorts of things? Corwin8 08:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what LJS is. I only post under Corwin8, although before registering I published under an IP address which usually begins with 24. If I can clarify myself in any way, or if there are rules I need to know, please let me know. Oh, both parties pay to surf the internet, as do corporations, individuals, and foreign governments. It's all pretty childish if you ask me. I actually learned about Wilki in the marketing book "We know what you want" by Martin Howard. While the political entries here are filled with fights & filtered POVs, the science & philosophy here is the best and esiest to understand on the internet. Corwin8 19:59, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
138.162.0.41 and some other addresses in the same /28 have started to revert to the LJS/Honest Abe version. This time the address is sourced to a military installation. Same tactics though. -- Gorgonzilla 15:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone (won't make any assumptions here) attempted to re-insert the "unused" school buses theory in the article, in much the same manner as LJS, using the very same .jpg as the Drudge Report which I believe LJS did as well. THIS PHOTO DOES NOT SUBSTANTIATE THE THEORY. -- Jentizzle 17:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Somebody quote big article here, i shortened it. -- C.levin 23:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed that all of the criticisms of Nagin so far just state that "people" have criticized him, or that he has "faced criticism". This is unencyclopedic; criticisms need to be traced to a specific source before they can be placed in an enyclopedia article. Likewise, if they don't have a specific source, they can't be here--people can't just come up with their own criticisms of Nagin and put them in the article. Aquillion 20:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The article was reverted to LJS's version, which incorrectly construes the Posse Comitataus Act and makes POV claims in okay...I've lost count of the instances. I think a revert is in order. -- Jentizzle 00:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I wasn't talking about sources intended to prove the criticisms. In fact, I don't think we need those, although they can't hurt. What we need is sources for the criticisms themselves. In other words, absolutely everything under the "Criticism of Nagin's Response" section has to be cited to specific people or groups who have made those criticisms; Wikipedia editors cannot come up with criticisms of their own and put them there, no matter how much original research they do to support their claims. All criticism of Nagin (or any other figure in Wikipedia) needs to be in the format of "so-and-so said X", not "A hypothetical criticism of Nagin is X" or "Nagin has faced criticism for X." Right now, not a single criticism in the criticism section lists who's doing the criticizing; that's unencyclopedic. Always keep Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms in mind. That's why I kept putting in things like "supporters of the Administration have criticized Nagin for...", which is at least better than not giving a source at all. If no source for a criticism can be found, then the criticism itself has to be removed as an out-of-place rant by an editor.
A criticism section, first and foremost, lists specific groups and people who have criticized the article's subject. It's not a place for editors to dump critical rants of their own; that's why absolutely everything placed there must contain a cite back to where the criticism originates. Aquillion 03:28, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. Someone keeps whitewashing this article and removing all criticism of Nagin. I gave good references and even linked to the Louisiana hurricane emergency plan, and it keeps getting removed. Corwin8 00:32, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. This showed up on some idiotic LW blog like BuzzFlash, MoveOn.org or Democratic Underground. I'm sure. When Gorgonzilla shows up you can expect there to be whitewashing and extreme LW POV inserted. Jentizzle seems to mean well but is hopelessly lost not knowing her edits have a LW POV also. Her ever increasing demands for sourcing have caused the expansion of the section criticizing Nagin rather than her intended effect. Proper balance would seem to be showing Nagins criticism of others including federal authorities and the LA Governor, criticism of Nagin and Nagin's defense of himself. I've done that with my edits. Can Jentizzle explain why that isn't a neutral POV?? I doubt it, but I'd love to hear her try. -- Long John Silver
209.247.222.92
17:09, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
The new section under Criticism of Nagin refers to Mayor Nagin's TWICE, the second time to make a moot point. Further claim that Nagin "fled" to Baton Rouge on the 27th rather than "evacuated" like everyone else is POV.
The moronic school bus theory is STILL NOT properly supported and I'M STILL EDITING IT OUT. Corwin8 cites a bunch of irrelevant sources that state Lousiana authorizes school buses in for use in evac efforts.
The claim that Pres. Bush made "a personal call" on August 26 to Nagin and Blanco, who in turn "ignored his request" is NEITHER supported by the link to a whitehouse interview beside it.
Finally, there's this statement all by it's lonesome, unsupported:
Corwin8 appears to be another sockpuppet from the Navy supply depot where Dishonest Abe and Long Bong Silver come from. another of his nyms is SwampFox. Suggest revert on sight policy. Someone please report this vandal. -- Gorgonzilla 01:19, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-- Jentizzle 02:35, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Stop with the repeated reverts to the poorly written version with the POV claims, LJS. It's pathetic that they're being labeled as additions to defenses of Nagin, or whatever. -- Jentizzle 04:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
It wasn't my statement. It was Nagin's own defense of his actions and the statement was sourced. If you think it was lame you should take that up with Nagin. Why didn't you follow the link? Just click on the little number beside the text if you're having trouble with that. You do think Nagin deserves to be able to have his own defense aired, don't you?? -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.82 05:12, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
apparently there were 7 truckloads of MREs there. the national guard had supplies there to provide food and water for 15,000 people for 3 days on the august 28th. as for wether to believe quotes attributed to the deputy director of the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Emergency Preparedness as reported by the times picayune, or the "drudge report"... http://nola.live.advance.net/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html
Finally! In its August 27 update, NOLA/Times-Picayune references the governor's request as coming 8/27, also reprinting the full text of the request which is dated 8/27 [38]
Bayoubuzz.com acknowledges the same info. Adding these two sources to the article.
Just so everyone's clear, this makes for a total of four online sources which designate Governor Kathleen Blanco/state of Louisiana as requesting federal assistance on AUGUST 27. For convenience, I'm reposting them all here:
1 Press Release on Governor Blanco's site: http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976
2 FEMA Press Release: http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18447
3 NOLA/Times Picayune newslog: http://nola.live.advance.net/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#074515
4 Bayoubuzz: http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4843
Thus, the .pdf which supposedly represents the "actual document" will be noted in the article as presenting a discrepancy and disputing the above four sources. -- Jentizzle 08:19, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
The president's "action authorize[d] the Department of Homeland Security,
Federal Emergency Management Agency, to coordinate all disaster relief efforts . . . ."
The Department of Homeland Security's website states that, "In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility . . . for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort." [39] Page 43 of the National Response Plan issued by the Department of Homeland Security in December 2004 states, under the "Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response," that "Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude." [40]
Michael Chertoff said one reason federal assets were not used more quickly was "because our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor."
Nagin did not call a mandatory evacuation until Sunday morning, after first consulting with city attorneys to see if he had the legal authority to do so. Moreover, the Superdome, one of the the city's designated Last Resort Refuge shelters, was not supplied with meals ready-to-eat (MRE's), water purification equipment, chemical toilets, blankets, nor an adequate number of medical staff and facilities. [42]
The source is poissibly biased, but nowhere near as biased as Fox News. [43] Incidentally, Scott McClellan refused to endorse the claim as true in the press conference yesterday and the press secretary would normally have a list of every conversation between the President or Vice President and another elected official.
The press conference was called for 9:30 and Bush called just before. It is clear that the decision had already been taken at that point and that Bush was neither responsible for the evacuation nor would he have 'pleaded' for it. In fact I think the claim is somewhat disrespectful to Bush, Presidents do not plead. It also cuts something of a hole in the excuses being made for the lack of a response. -- Gorgonzilla 18:21, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
There is a problem with this article, each time I add in sourced criticism of Nagin it disappears. There has been considerable criticism of Nagin for his preparations for the Hurricane that do appear to be well founded, or at the very least justifiable. The evacuation order could have been made earlier, the evacuation could have planned to evacuate people who did not have cars.
The main reason for this problem is of course the individual who keeps on inserting exceptionally POV, unfounded criticisms that are either unsupported or disproven.
I do not think that the article should list every crackpot theory from wingnut blogs the second it appears, whether left or right wing. On the other hand if a criticism has been made by the mainstream media OR is being made by big blogs on both sides then I think it is notable. I have seen criticism of preparations before the storm on most of the left wing big blogs and it appears the right wing blogs agree on this point. I think that the criticism is therefore notable, NPOV and important. Even if it is with the benefit of hindsight as most criticism is.
I do not however see any reason to include whackpot conspiracy theories where the original source is a comment on powerline.
If these theories were being discussed in the mainstream media, if they were definitively sourced as Whitehouse criticism or they were being advanced by non-partisan or bi-partisan weblogs they would be notable and there should be a note that they are disproved.
I suggest that there be a section of criticism of Nagin's planning for the hurricane. That does seem to be an area where he shares responsibility with the federal govt and there are certainly a lot of people who have criticized the planning. -- Gorgonzilla 19:16, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
ThinkProgress has a great timeline on Katrina and the federal/state/local response thereto, with links, which should be very helpful for this and related articles. [44] (No, I'm not associated with ThinkProgress -- just thought this would be useful.) Krakatoa 19:36, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I've mentioned this before but this anonymous user continues to edit SUBSTANTIAL sections of the article, including reorganizing the timeline of events re: Katrina, getting rid of the sourced info noting the discrepancy between the August 27/28th documents which cite Blanco's request for aid ALONG WITH his badly written edits to criticism of mayor Nagin, without mentioning it! Mention all aspects of the article you edit, LJS!
Moreover, LJS has made repeated WORTHLESS comments re: "The Left" when making edits. Make specific comments regarding the edits of individual Wikipedians please! -- Jentizzle 19:53, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
He has also accused me of being a 'Liar' and a NAZI violating WP:NPA. I suggest we file a Rfc against the two /28s he is using. I have been reluctant to propose that because they are at a large Navy base and he is not the only poster from that address. However the folk who make the useful posts on Naval subjects might find this guy and teach him about Wikequete. He has clearly violated the 3RR, he is the only party promoting this higly POV edit, he makes use of sockpuppets to imply that others share his views. he is also arguably violating military law in accusing Bill Clinton of rape. -- Gorgonzilla 20:30, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
If this continues a certain naval base is going to end up with all its IP address ranges blocked:
These are very clearly the same individual or a group of invidividuals working together. The IP addresses appear to be comming from a naval base in the San Francisco area. -- Gorgonzilla 20:21, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I think it hurts the credibility of both the Wikipedia and Nagin if criticisms of him are simply omitted. These criticisms are being made, and so they should on some level be presented here, regardless of whether we consider them valid. Instead, we are simply acting as a sounding board for the mayor's own opinions, rather than providing a neutral perspective on the controversies surrounding him. Moreover, I happen to think that most of the criticisms weighed against Nagin are invalid, and by neglecting to mention them, we have the additional effect of perpetuating them. On the other hand, if we balance out all of the unverified claims with statements to the effect that "the accuracy of this claim has not been verified", etc., we avoid the possibility that people will suspect the Wikipedia of sharing these unverified claims. This seems to me, the much better approach.
And to say that the neutrality of the article is not in dispute is ridiculous. It clearly is. 65.241.152.139 21:24, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm getting the idea now. This is a pro-Nagin article. Any link that criticises Nagin is insufficient. Anyone that criticises Nagin is a "sockpuppet" or a pawn or any of the other names that people here are called. And now, we are being told that "Encyclopedic articles are not the the place for such criticism"? Fine. Will the George W. Bush article be changed to reflect that? Of course not.
Anyone care to look at this Wall Street Journal article "Blame Amid the Tragedy - Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents" [45]? I quote, "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation."
"...even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them"
Oh, I forgot - no link is sufficient to claim that the phone call existed, or that the school busses were under water. Even Yahoo pictures are insufficient, huh?
"Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed"
Has Gorgonzolla violated the 3RR rule? How many times has he violated it?
I'm beginning to get the picture, and I NOW understand Wikipedia. The purpose of this is to present biased and prejudiced political opinions. Anyone that questions those opinions is attacked.
It cracks me up now that some of the same documents I originally referenced - documents such as the New Orleans evacuation plan, and Bianco's letter on her .gov website - are now being referenced by CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC. Corwin8 00:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
O.K., Aquillion, maybe I mispoke. If, for example, I wrote something like: Reporter John Smith remarked that Mayor Ray Nagin failed to put the toilet seat down. [46] Is that the proper format? Corwin8 05:46, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The POV deletions I have made do not imply that the content deleted is inaccurate. However, as an encyclopedia article content must be constructed that refrains from appearing to be the opinion of the writer. The article can state that an individual said ____ regarding _____. But the content cannot make conclusions based upon those statements. The statements must speak for themselves. Deletions do not imply a bias against Nagin. Deletions are an indication to writers that content must be factual and not opinionated. When, for example, the Governor is quoted as saying "I think the mayor..." that is her opinion and is appropriate for inclusion in the article. To begin the quote saying "The mayor flip flopped when he" is an opinion by the writer of the action. However, to state, "When the mayor did ___ then ____ was the result" that is a statement of fact. Journo 101. Kyle Andrew Brown 07:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
This is the "Dueling Criticisms" which has been removed from the article for POV:
Thats alright, we have all seen it again, and again and again and again. Long John Silver keeps reverting to the version of this article he wrote several days ago and has been rejected as POV by every single other editor apart from his sockpuppets. It isn't even repeating GOP talking points (which would be notable even if POV) it is his own set of personal theories based on rumours he read on Powerline and Little Green Footballs. -- Gorgonzilla 14:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The article has been repeatedly vandalised from a new IP address. The text inserted "Mayor Nagin doesn't care about Latino people!" is 'supported by a link to a page that does not mention Nagin. IP addresses associated with LJS have in the past peppered pages with racist graffiti so it is not unlikely. -- Gorgonzilla 03:18, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Bush's comments about the "tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities" shouldn't be presented as a criticism of C. Ray's mayoral administration during and after the storm or construed as "focusing on the failings of state and local authorities". EVERYTHING was overwhelmed by the magnitude of this storm. I'm not an apologist for either Nagin or Bush. There's plenty of blame for everyone to share. But this is both a mischaracterization of Bush's comments and a sideways POV slam against Nagin, likely in retaliation for his vitriolic criticism of the federal response (or lack thereof). Let's just include an actual published accusation against Nagin instead of this weak attack, if anyone has one that's relevant.
Ghetteaux, I think I see where you're coming from with the chocolate milk thing. But do you really think Nagin had looked up the recipe for chocolate milk before he made that second comment? It seems more likely to me that he was thinking of chocolate milk in the general sense of "mixture of white and black", and hadn't, in his head, taken the metaphor as far as you're taking it. -- Allen 03:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I find User:Ghetteaux's extended riff on possible demographic implications of substances used in chocolate foods and beverages to be amusing, but as it goes beyond anything Nagin actually said into speculation, I don't think it belongs in the article. Also, I don't think it's clear from Nagin's quotes that his "explanation" refers to hot chocolate or chocolate milk, so I disagree with wording that assumes this is known. -- Infrogmation 03:08, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
there is now a small gang of bullies (chiefly User:Maximusveritas) who follow me around on here and revert anything i contribute. I fail to see how this is helpful behaviour to the so called 'wikicommunity' that they are hiding behind. congratulations, you have succeeded in discouraging a human being from participating in this project. -- Ghetteaux 11:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
To introduce a (presumably) less controversional question... It would be helpful ot add a note on how Mayor Nagin's name is pronounced. Is it "Nay-ghin"? Flapdragon 16:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I didn't do much research on his explanation of his comment, but are we sure that he was alluding to the Chocolate City album? Nagin apparently has some level of education, and it could have been a poor usage of Cornel West's 'chocolate' metaphor. I could be wrong, or maybe nobody knows, I'd just hate to see a citation based on something, purely, because the names happen to match. 71.12.199.149 22:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
"Nay-ghin" is more proper as a pronunciation guide. "Nay-gin" can be pronounced as the drink gin, which is incorrect. Please revert this inaccurate pronunciation. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 02:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone submitted an edit saying that Nagin lost tonight's election, when in fact he won. The official results can be found here: http://www.sos.louisiana.gov:8090/cgibin/?rqstyp=elcpr&rqsdta=05200636
but why
It is wrongly listed as being under mandatory evacuation on Thursday, the 28th of August.
71.139.17.189 22:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)ZF 71.139.17.189 22:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
As another editor has twice removed language noting there have been multiple designs of shirts satirizing Nagin as Wonka, here are a couple of references and images. Two different local ones mentioned in Jan Times-Picayune Froogle Willy Nagin Mayor Wonka.
Note that these are all different designs from the [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48403 Worldnetdaily] listing. For good measure, a different chocolate Nagin satire found on Ebay. I've seen at least a couple more designs on the same theme. (I could take some more photos if folks think it particularly important, but as I still have a few hundred Katrina devastation photos I want to upload next time I have access to something faster than dialup, I won't make it a priority unless multiple users so request.) -- Infrogmation 14:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The article (and many sources) state that Nagin is a former Republican, yet I just heard him in an interview on the Tavis Smiley Show (NPR) saying that he is a "life-long Democrat" and has never been a registered republican. Can someone please verify? (the interview with Tavis Smiley originally aired on 13 January 2006, I believe) Drumsac 19:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
This has somehow become a hot topic well over a year later, with some rants recently being posted. Good sourced NPOV coverage of this would probably be a useful addition. The below removed from the article is lacking any references. Some details do not seem in line with news reports I read at the time as well. -- Infrogmation 09:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
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