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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
– The birth years of these three pitchers are all in a five-year span, so unless someone knows the exact DOB of the pitcher they want to look up, these titles are not very helpful. I think that the new titles will better describe each pitcher: the Ramírez born in 1981 has been a relief pitcher for his entire major league career (and will almost certainly never become a starter), the Ramírez born in 1982 has been a starter and a reliever in his short major league career, and the Ramírez born in 1977 is only notable because he pitched for Panama in the World Baseball Classic.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
12:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
If we are to move them are the proposed titles for the first two articles really the best solution? All three players are of different nationalities - so could we not take the lead from your third example and move the others to
Ramón Ramírez (Dominican pitcher) and
Ramón Ramírez (Venezuelan pitcher)? That seems to be the more usual way of disambiguating in situations like this. AJSham12:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose Using nationality for one and not the others isn't uniform. Even using nationalities for all three though doesn't reduce confusion for me, because I don't know whose nationality is whose (except from the comment above about the 1977 born one being from Panama). –
Muboshgu (
talk)
15:44, 6 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Maybe, I dunno. I should clarify my opposition as one of ambivalence. I agree with you that it's impossible to tell from the current titles of these three pages which one leads to whom. I support moving them, but I'm not sure what the best way to rename them is, though. Maybe all by nationality would be an improvement. –
Muboshgu (
talk)
22:34, 6 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose/comment: I think for consistency reasons, it would be better with nationality for all three. Nationality has a higher probability of recognition, at least when they are so close in age. Also, nationality does not change (very often), but roles, such as being a relief pitcher or a starting pitcher, could change over night, eg. as the result of an injury.
HandsomeFella (
talk)
21:39, 6 March 2012 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
– Per the discussion above. Actually, I think Muboshgu could have moved the articles, as there was a consensus on a counter-proposal (equivalent to this one).
HandsomeFella (
talk)
22:34, 12 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Eh, nah. There was consensus against the move as proposed, but I don't think there was consensus for this proposed move. There was some initial support, but not necessarily enough to say for sure. I'm not necessarily on board myself. –
Muboshgu (
talk)
22:46, 12 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Support: The birthdates are too close together (as I said above), so these pages need to be moved. Nationality is apparently the least controversial way to move them, so I support it.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
00:00, 13 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Support. A clear improvement over the current titles. Nationalities are a much cleaner and more descriptive distinction than birth dates.
BlindMic (
talk)
23:21, 13 March 2012 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article is almost entirely composed of routine coverage of statistical summaries. Please add some of the story for this guy, at least since he was in the major leagues there should be some non-routine coverage. I am considering quickfailing this article for lack of encyclopedic content.--
TonyTheTiger (
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06:02, 29 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Shorten "This article is about the pitcher who currently plays for the New York Mets. For the pitcher who played two seasons for the Cincinnati Reds, see Ramón Ramírez (Venezuelan pitcher). For the pitcher who played for Panama in the 2006 World Baseball Classic, see Ramón Ramírez (Panamanian pitcher).
For other people named Ramón Ramírez, see Ramón Ramírez (disambiguation)."
to "This article is about the current New York Mets pitcher. For the former Cincinnati Reds pitcher, see Ramón Ramírez (Venezuelan pitcher). For the Panamanian national team pitcher, see Ramón Ramírez (Panamanian pitcher). For other uses, see Ramón Ramírez (disambiguation)."--
TonyTheTiger (
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11:27, 29 March 2012 (UTC)reply
I added some more information about Ramírez's personal life. I am sorry I did not add more, but it is actually rather tricky to find information about players from Latin America. Also, Ramírez is just a relief pitcher and does not draw as much attention as other players. The Boston Globe charges for their articles, Ramírez has not even pitched for the Mets yet (and he was not in the majors with the Yankees), and I checked the San Francisco Chronicle. However, I hope what I have put will be enough (this article actually has about as much non-routine coverage as
Guillermo Mota's article, and that one is a GA). Besides, Ramírez is only notable because of his baseball career, and I have included plenty of information about that.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
12:20, 29 March 2012 (UTC)reply
I added the incident in Philadelphia. I do not think the first reference you mentioned is really notable; Ramírez was not suspended, fined, or ejected from the game, and he did not actually hit Torrealba with the pitch. I do not think the second reference is reliable: Ramírez could not have been suspended 50 games for steroids use while with the Royals (because he pitched in 71 games for them), and I could not find any other source saying that he was suspended.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
11:23, 30 March 2012 (UTC)reply
We are not suppose to make up arbitrary guidelines (whether there was an ejection or whether he hit the guy) to determine what is notable. Notability is based on what is written in the press. WP is a summary of RS. If RS write about something we summarize it. I added a few more stories about the incident. Please reconsider whether it is noteworthy.
I merged the subsections. However, I think that the statistics will have to remain in the prose. I have noticed that statistical tables appear on most hockey articles, and they are often found on football articles on Wikipedia. However, for some reason they are never used on baseball articles, so the statistics need to stay in the prose for this one.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
10:58, 31 March 2012 (UTC)reply
In general, I think you should link to season articles in the text. A sentence like "Ramírez got his only win of the year by pitching a scoreless inning on September 21 in a 1–0 victory over the Cubs" should link to the proper Cubs season as should all references to teams he is not playing for.--
TonyTheTiger (
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07:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)reply
The purpose of those above four points is to show some of Ramírez's season highlights. I do not think a link to the visiting team's season is necessary; I've never done that before when working on a good article (like
Pat Burrell, Mota, and
Edgar Rentería), and I don't think I need to now.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
11:02, 31 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Dude, you have about a half dozen GA credits. I am approaching 300. Believe me when I say, that linking to the team season helps the reader a lot more. You should go back and fix the other few GAs you have. Although I do mostly football and basketball this is still relevant in baseball. Teams differ from year to year. Please reformat your team links and try to make a habit of it. Also, if you review, try to get other editors to link to team seasons.--
TonyTheTiger (
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15:06, 31 March 2012 (UTC)reply
In terms of highlights. I would only mention stats like that in association with being player of the week/month, setting a record, being on a streak, a significant win (a scoreless inning that earned a save where one team stopped a 15 game losing streak against the other or where it was the 5000th win in franchise history, e.g.) or being in the playoffs. I would remove the four that I mentioned as
WP:CRUFT.--
TonyTheTiger (
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15:06, 31 March 2012 (UTC)reply
P.S. superlative random games can be included. If he enters with the bases loaded and strikes out the side or if he strikes out 5 or 6 guys in two innings, you can mention those regardless of the signifcance of the game. Similarly if a batter gets 5 hits, 3 homers, 2 grannies, or hits for a cycle, you can include those. Random saves don't belong in an encyclopedia however. Even a successful outing after returning from the DL might find its place in the prose. Basically, stats with a story can be included.--
TonyTheTiger (
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18:56, 31 March 2012 (UTC)reply
It would not hurt to link to the season for the team he is playing for in some cases. E.g., "since Giants' manager Bruce Bochy" could be changed to "since 2010 Giants' manager Bruce Bochy" with a link.
"He posted a 0.66 ERA through his first 13 games with the Royals" -> "He posted a 0.66 ERA through his first 13 games with the 2008 Royals" linked.
Basically, you may get traded to or from a franchise, but each year you achieve things for a specific team. Try to work one team season link into the text for each team he played for. This will help the reader.
Since you only have a half dozen GAs to go back through, I urge you to reformat those as well with team season links.
MLB years are well-placed. The team seasons are sort of hidden. You are suppose to place links in the first use of a term. I would link to the first use of the team name that does not relate to a franchise. I.E., first use other than transactions (which should still link to the franchise).--
TonyTheTiger (
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14:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)reply
I am pretty sure you misunderstood my last suggestion.
this edit removed a lot of helpful links, especially for opponents. I have reverted it. What I meant is that if he played for team x in 20YY. the 20YY team season article should be linked the first place it is convenient. The following are examples:
"He made his debut on April 14" -> "He made his debut for the 2006 Rockies on April 14".