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According to Hindu scriptures Rajputs are Shudra
According to Brahma Vaivarta Purana [1] क्षत्रात्करणकन्यायां राजपुत्रो बभूव ह ।। राजपुत्र्यां तु करणादागरीति प्रकीर्तितः।। 1/10/110
सद्य क्षत्रिय बीजेन राजपुत्रस्य योषितः भूव तीवरश्चैव पतितो जारदोषतः।। ९९।। (ब्रह्मवैवर्तपुराणम्/खण्डः प्रथम (ब्रह्मखण्डः)/अध्यायः १०/श्लोकः ९९ भावार्थ:-क्षत्रिय के बीज (वीर्य )से राजपुत्र की स्त्री में तीवर (धींवर) उत्पन्न हुआ। वह भी व्याभिचार दोष के कारण पतित कहलाया। with the union of Kshatriya men and Karan kanya(girls) Rajput was born.
According to Skanda Purana [2]]
शूद्रायां क्षत्रियादुग्रः क्रूरकर्मा प्रजायते।।४७।। शस्त्रविद्यासु कुशल: संग्रामकुशलो भवेत्। तया वृत्त्या स जीवेद्यो शूद्रधर्मा प्रजायते।।४८।। रजपूत इति ख्यातो युद्धकर्मविशारदः।
Skanda purana's Sahyadri khanda's 26th cahpter says that Rajputs are born from Shudra women by Kshatriya father.
पराशर स्मृति
वैश्यादंबष्ठ कन्यायां राजपुत्र प्रजायते
अमरकोष
मूर्धाभिषिक्तो राजन्यो क्षत्रियो बाहुजो विराट्। राजा राट् पार्थिवक्ष्मा भृन्नृपभूपमहीक्षित:।। (संस्कृत अमरकोष)
अर्थात:-मूर्धाभिषिक्त,राजन्य, बाहुज, क्षत्रिय,विराट्,राजा,राट्,पार्थिव, क्ष्माभृत्, नृप, भूप,और महिक्षित ये क्षत्रिय शब्द के पर्यायवाची हैं। इसमें 'राजपूत' शब्द या तदर्थक कोई अन्य शब्द नहीं आया है।
शब्दकल्पद्रुम
( वर्णसङ्करभेदे (रजपुत) वैश्यादम्बष्ठकन्यायां राजपुत्रस्य सम्भवः इति पराशरः स्मृति ।
अर्थात:- वैश्य पुरुष के द्वारा अम्बष्ठ कन्या में राजपूत उत्पन्न होता है। — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.228.13.182 ( talk) 12:31, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Ok, if Rajputs are Shudras, then where have Kshatriyas vanished. If Rajputs are "Shudras" then why have they been the only equivalent of Kshatriyas in recorded history. If Rajputs are "Shudras", then why have the Brahmin, Jain, Buddhist & even Turkic works called them Kshatriyas. Why do rajputs' own Inscriptions call themselves Kshatriyas. Abhishek Parihar121 ( talk) 18:28, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
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hi fellow editors , according to the book "हिंदू जाति का उत्थान और पतन" published in the year 1958 by Rajnikant shastri ,On page no. 28 last paragraph it is written "Rajputs are born from a kstriye father and shudr mother {basically varnshanker} and is described as निर्दय {merciless} and भयानक {Horrible}."
my edit request is that this narrative should be added.
[i dont know why but 3 citations are coming below which are not added by me. kindly ignore ]
Citation-
https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.9920/page/n45/mode/2up?view=theater&q=%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%82%E0%A4%A4
Gaurav 3894 (
talk)
04:40, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk)
10:13, 15 December 2021 (UTC)@ ScottishFinnishRadish: I had already started a discussion for the same on the date 10/12/2021 but did not got any response that's why put up an edit request , if I have have to wait then do tell me for how long if no one is replying, Thanks for replying Gaurav 3894 ( talk) 06:04, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Ekdalian: who are you to determine this , have you read his other works ?? BTW it is approved by Central archaeological library and you can also see the stamp on the first page . I request you to please take back your statement that it is not reliable because you are no one to determine this but if you think that this book is unreliable then feel free to start a discussion here WP:RSN but until then my source is completely reliable so please. Gaurav 3894 ( talk) 04:17, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Ekdalian: thanks for replying , whats the procedure after consensus ??
@ Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI: hi, thanks for replying, I did not intend to use it to call rajputs merciless or cruel .main reason was to use the part about the caste status , hope you now understand Gaurav 3894 ( talk) 03:36, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
@
Ekdalian: @
ScottishFinnishRadish: @
Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI: hello , here is another book "Journal of Nepalese Literature, Art, and Culture, Volume 4" which says " The rajputs were born from Kshatriyas and untouchable women " on page 27 . Please also tell is it reliable or i have to find another one ?? thanks and regards
Gaurav 3894 (
talk)
04:00, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
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Please remove a link to File:Karni mata.jpg from the Rajput#Deities section – the file has been deleted from Commons as Commons' Speedy deletion F3. Derivative work of non-free content ( commons:File:Karni mata.jpg). -- CiaPan ( talk) 09:35, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
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Felingin ( talk) 10:19, 22 April 2022 (UTC) There is not a single proof of this dynasty associated with any shudra rajput you should go and read oficial rajput Wikipedia page were it is clearly mentioned before 14th century Mughal era not a single person on this planet claimed to be rajput after 14th century rajput title gain populary because of Mughal invasion and Hindu shahi khatana were gujjars khatana is a sub clan of Gujjar they ruled as Hindu shahi over Kabul afghanistan and kashmir in Kabul peshwar kashmir Punjab Gujjar are still in majority not rajput in many history books in India Hindu shahi written as gujjar not rajput also checked Google map were the death place of Hindu shahi gujjar ruler jaypal khatam gujjar mentioned with gujjar and khatana do don't spread fake information as Wikipedia is not the last source of information or history so don't play by using fake tricks without sources
The sentence reads,"In the 18th century, the Rajputs came under influence of the Maratha empire." What does "coming under influence" entails? Clarity is needed here. The payment of chauthaiby the Rajput houses to the Marathas should be mentioned too. Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 18:11, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
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Please Add Meo Khanzada Rajputs of mewat. Raja Hassan Khan Mewati was last ruler of Mewat. He was killed in battle of khawana in 1527. Chaudhary Muhammad Waqas Haroon khan ( talk) 16:40, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
As discussed in an above section, it was recently discovered that content had been added to the article by the editor editing from IP range 106.66.*.* that misrepresented the source and seemingly made up a quote attributed to Romila Thapar. Despite being given ample opportunity and time, the IP editor has not provided any explanation for how this error/hoax happened, even though they have posted multiple times to this talk page and even edited the article since then. Therefore, as a precautionary move I have removed the bulk of the material added to the article by the IP editor in these four series of edits ( [3], [4], [5], [6]) during the past two weeks. Any (ECP confirmed, since the article is protected) editor in good standing is welcome to add back any part of the removed content as long as they have independently verified that the content they are adding back matches what the cited source say and is relevant to the article, i.e., take responsibility for the material. Let me know if there are any questions. Abecedare ( talk) 02:36, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
When Harsha shifted the centre of north India
nhistory to Kannauj inthemidstoftheGanga-J–Yamuna dDoab,the tribes living intothe west of this new centre also became more important for further courses of Indian history.They were first and foremost the Rajputs who now emerged intothelimelight of Indian history.
@ Abecedare: Legitimate concerns Abecedare. I cross checked almost all sources and fixed the glitches in quotation by retrospecting each and every source. It was tedious process but quite fruitful at the end. Not only these content, quotation in general have such petty issues of grammatical errors. Thanks for your time !! Packer&Tracker «Talk» 18:37, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
@ LukeEmily: Don't know if you have inserted below lines in the topmost paragraph: "According to modern scholars, almost all Rajputs clans originated from peasant or pastoral communities"- with 5 references. The same lines are added with same set of 5 references ( word to word), in first paragraph ( last lines) of the Origin and Emergence section. It seems this whole article has been made completely messy with overusing of same or similar Citations. If you got no issue I am removing it from the origin section, We can't put same thing on every section of this page. This is case of WP:REPCITE RS6784 ( talk) 18:41, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
I have EC protected the page indefinitely under WP:GSCASTE, since disruptive editing resumed within days of the previous ECP expiring. Frankly, the Protection log of the page makes for sorry reading. That said, I can't vouch for the current version of the page I protected and all are welcome to propose sourced changes to the article. Abecedare ( talk) 00:46, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
@ Sajaypal007 and RS6784: Here aftee getting the article ECP protected, LukeEmily as I can see through history of the page removed all my edits backed up by scholarly sources and researches which differed then their original predjuice. They have this habit of taking articles back to their prefered version and keep this article a mess against Rajputs. Can any of you please undo their recent edits where they removed all of my content addition in emergence as community section, history of Rajput kingdoms and in lead where 16th century version is clearly given a lot prefference despite I present over dozen sources for their existence much prior. Please reinstate my edits where I only writtten other side of coin with back up of excellent sources. My edits were cross checked by many senior editors but Luke is well known for removing edits to their prefered version after making a article protected. It's unfair of you too to make this article protected despite no one asked for it to enable our addition and editors pushing for their version through edit summaries which seems in good faith. PS:- Please reinstate all my content addition deleted by them in one flash where I never removed any content but added other prospective as well with sources. 106.78.41.246 ( talk) 00:59, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
@ Abecedare: Point out any of my edits where I removed any of existing source or content ??? (Or added content without a source) ? I only made slight modification in lead where 16th century version was pushed in lead despite presenting dozen of sources for earlier existence.
In any case removing such large chunks of date despite many senior editors kept my changes and reviewed them is clear indication of the desire to keep their prefered version. 106.78.41.81 ( talk) 01:18, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Luke is well known for removing edits to their prefered version after making a article protected. No , I am always against removal of any sourced content even if I disagree with it personally(only exception being a talk page discussion where an editor justifies the removal of sourced content and others agree). This edit was only for restoring it to a stable version and specifically requested that changes can be reapplied. But your statement makes me feels that you are a banned editor trying to work around a block using your IP. LukeEmily ( talk) 01:25, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
@ LukeEmily: Lets get to point straightway without wasting time and energy here. You claimed you only interfered after noticing deletion of content, Let me elaborate this here, I never ever deleted any content. For lead version, this article pushes for 16th century narrative in lead despite I presented sources which very clearly mention earlier emergence (4 of them added today and research papers from academia.edu (a reputed publishing site). I removed Bayly version there because it was cherry picking of few lines as I pointed out in my earlier edit summary that on pg. 32, She pointed out that:-
These clans were calling themselves Rajput from thirteenth-fourteenth century and "possibly very much earlier
What does this means ?? This very clearly donot means that she denied their earlier existence infact said very much earlier possibly ? It's wrong to take any side in lead and push a specific version of 16th century when other sources differ. So, I presented a neutral lead and editors/readers can themselve decide after going through origin section. That's it. Stop making bad faith accusation too. As for stable version, there are no stable version, Wikipedia is not static anyone can improve it. Just for record, my edits were reviewed by senior editors till yesterday where no one raise any objection even that there was stable version. In short reinstate my edits which you deleted in one edit today and made all my efforts to go in vain. 106.78.41.253 ( talk) 01:37, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
@
Abecedare: Dear administraitor let me explain again about those edits for you;
This particular source of author Bayly is cherry picked from few lines of her or contradictary statements exist in her own book for the same, take a look at page no. 32 for this where she wrote that
These clans were calling themselves Rajput from thirteenth-fourteenth century and possibly very much earlier
cross check it yourself, so these source was removed as it contradicts itself even in quote added it doesn't say that clearly these identity did not exist in earlier years which makes it WP:Synthesis as well.
Over the time the Rajputs emerged as a social class comprising people from a variety of ethnic and geographical backgrounds
which perfectly summed up the article & without preffering any date CE. Our readers can themselve see it in Origin and emergence as community section.
Bottom line is I only requested to renistate my edits not last one
Special:MobileDiff/1082210612 but all other which i added from several reliable scholarly sources.
Any more doubts dear admin ?? If not please reinstate all my edits which were removed despite another users with pending change reviewer rights confirmed them.
106.66.10.24 (
talk) 03:08, 12 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
Since, I was mentioned here I can clearly point out that Ms Bayly on Page 32 exactly says contrary to how she was mentioned here, so there should no issue with the removal of one particular edits. I can see the edits made by one ID here, except removal of S Bayly's one reference, I don't think the ID removed anything which can be counted as controversial edits. The references have been provided for the recents edits here. There is an issue of WP:Undue in this article, as the weightage has been given to what this community was in 700 AD, 1100 AD etc rather than their overall contribution as such. There is something called as WP: Assume Good Faith, the edits made on this page is surely either fixated on 700 AD or 1200 AD etc or directly to 1800 with only negatives pertaining to a community. Thanks and best ! RS6784 ( talk) 05:42, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
@
RS6784: There is no consensus on when they got modern meaning so I mentioned all scholarly researches here and this probably seems fine to me there is no undue weightage to any as such date.
I agree on their overall history was missing and only serving Mughals was given too much weight that's why I mentioned about their resistance to Arabs and defeats against Mahmmud Ghaznavi or Shahbuddin Ghori. These seems alright to me now but origin section needs some fixing for sure.
106.66.14.255 (
talk) 06:13, 12 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
@ LukeEmily: Well you said I don't agree with removal of such high quality source ? Really ? This source actually supported the other viewpoint on page no. 32 here is the exact wording for same:-
In the arid hill country what is now Rajasthan, located southwest to the Mughal original strongholds in gangetic plain, powerful lords had been calling themselves as Rajputs, a tittle derived from the Sanskrit (rajaputra, king's son), as far back as thirteenth century AD and possibly very much earlier
106.78.41.14 ( talk) 04:43, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
. What she is saying is that it is not necessary that the Rajputs chiefs in the 16th century are the descendents of the Rajput elites of the 13th century. Page 33 says that they had memories of earlier chiefs who had used names such as Rajput (name implying lordship) and these new 16th century warriors did the same. Actually, what she is saying is not contentious at all except that the scholars disagree a bit about the time the caste boundaries solidified. For example, see EatonThe chiefs and warriors whom the Mughals came to honor as Rajput lords in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries may not even have been descendants of Rajasthan’s earlier pre-Mughal elites
. Can we continue discussion tomorrow? I will try to give an analogy. Also there is some discussion on the Prithviraj Chauhan group that you might want to refer too. LukeEmily ( talk) 05:46, 13 April 2022 (UTC)In Gujarat, as in Rajasthan, genealogy proved essential for making such claims. To this end, local bards composed ballads or chronicles that presented their patrons as idea warriors who protected Brahmins, cows and vassals, as opposed to the livestock herding chieftains that they actually were, or had once been. As people, who created and preserved the genealogies, local bards therefore played critical roles in brokering for their clients socio-cultural transitions to a claimed Rajput status. A similar thing was happening in the Thar desert region, where from the fourteenth century onwards mobile pastoral groups gradually evolved into landed, sedentary and agrarian clans. Once again, it was bards and poets, patronized by little kings, who transformed a clan's ancestors from celebrated cattle-herders or cattle-rustlers to celebrated protectors of cattle-herding communities. The difference was subtle but critical, since such revised narratives retained an echo of a pastoral nomadic past while repositioning a clan's dynastic founder from pastoralist to non-pastoralist. The term 'Rajput', in short, had become a prestigious title available for adoption by upwardly mobile clan in the process of becoming sedentary. By one mechanism or another, a process of 'Rajputization' occurred in new states that emerged from the turmoil following Timur's invasion in 1398, especially in Gujarat, Malwa and Rajasthan.
@
LukeEmily: Eaton is already cited in these article and I can't figure how all your points end revolving around on dubious term called Rajputization. Prithviraj Chauhan talk page is a mess a complete mess and you already copied citation from there plus we are not removing any citation apart from Bayly one's where she didn't state what you want her to and this quote nowhere means that Rajput term is anachronism beside the fact your assertion that Mughal era Rajputs were not descended from earlier elites ?? Really, lets explain:-
So you are asserting he was not descended from earlier Kachwaha Kings ?? Prithviraj Kachwaha ?? He fought against Babur with Rana Sanga ? Pajjwan dev fought with Prithviraj Chauhan against Muhmmad Ghuri ? Amber family lineage started from 11th century atleast and has unbroken direct descendancy there as well till Mughal or even till India's independence. As @ RS6784: mentioned it's extremely stupid to say 16th century Rajputs were not descended from earlier Rajput clans. Mewar family ?? They had unbroken lineage as well from 8th century till 1947 as well ?? Chauhans were ruling from 7th century till sacking of Ranthambore 1301. 106.66.14.28 ( talk) 06:59, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
@
RS6784: I noticed you edited Bayaly quotes but please if you want to insert that place this quote in next thesis of
However there are another scholarly analysis which staged Rajput clan emergence in seventh century
because she doesn't support these dubious thesis of anachronism. If we want to keep this source at all because it misguide the readers who dont verify quotes that much.
106.66.14.28 (
talk)
07:03, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
@
Sajaypal007: Didn't here RS6784 put Bayly quote in wrong place ?? If they want to insert that place this quote in next thesis of
Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
However there are another scholarly analysis which staged Rajput clan emergence in seventh century
because she doesn't support these dubious thesis of anachronism at all infact staged their existence much prior to 13th century.
Shouldn't this source with quote move to this part as I suggest ??
106.66.14.55 (
talk) 07:14, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
@
LukeEmily: Do you actually even know what are you saying ?? Or just to keep this dubious source in place just replying for the sake of doing it ??
She is not saying 16th century chiefs were not descedents of 13th century chiefs (or much earlier which you omitted as well). This is quite illogical and stupid to think. All Rajput families that were there in Mughal Era whether Bhattis of Jaisalmer (1190 Ad establishment), Rathores of Marwar (1226 AD establishment), Mewar Family (established in eighth century), Kachwahas of Amber (11th century establishment) had unbroken lineage much before Taimurid dynasty was formed let alone Mughals.
She is not talking enrollment in armies either in any case this source no where states that Rajput idenity did not exist infact she said polar opposite of it that These clans were calling themselves as Rajputs from 13th century and very much earlier Was that section really about enrollment in armie chiefs or Rajput kingdoms in general again ?
In any case, How Maharana Pratap (16th century) Mughal era king was descended from Bappa Rawal, Khoman, Mathan Singh, Samarsingh or junior Rana branches ?? Was Maldev Rathore not related to Rao Simha or descended from him ? (Simha established Rajput rule in Marwar in 1226 and Maldev was from same family) ?? Was Raja Bharmal another Mughal era king not descended from Dhula Rai/Tejkaran ?? (Dhula Rai founded Kachwaha kingdom in Dhundar region)
It's just common sense which is quite uncommon at times.
This source is dubious that too quoting it in front of Anachronism theory which she didn't even mentioned
PS:- I removed this source after going through all of it, you didn't made any difference to it.
I again @
Sajaypal007 and
RS6784: to give their inputs here. At last, try better replies, you are again replying just for sake of doing it, point out where she said Rajput did not exist prior to a timeline infact said polar opposite staging it to 13th century and again very mucb earlier.
106.66.6.233 (
talk) 18:05, 13 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
. Yet you say :Yet the varna archetype of the Kshatriya-like man of prowess did become a key reference point for rulers and their subjects under the Mughals and their immediate successors. The chiefs and warriors whom the Mughals came to honor as Rajput lords in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries may not even have been descendants of Rajasthan’s earlier pre-Mughal elites. What mattered instead was that for both[] these titles and the markers of refined faith and social life which accompanied them , spoke in recognizable terms of exalted blood and ancestry
She is not saying 16th century chiefs were not descedents of 13th century chiefs (or much earlier which you omitted as well). This is quite illogical and stupid to think.. Maybe I am stupid but can you explain the contradiction in your statement and hers? LukeEmily ( talk) 20:21, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
@
LukeEmily: So of all the legtimate reasons you go back again on bad faith accusations. In your recent reply apart from accusations you also breached
WP:Canvassing rule by pinging those editors whom you thought will support your edits as you are unable to debate anymore. This is frowned upon on Wikipedia.
I find it very hard to believe from your edit history that why you always use content of other talk pages to win a consensus ? Prithviraj talk page is a mess and there was no consesnsus at all from what i can see now there were sources which ably counters Fowler&Fowler POV as well. No, they didn't explain that well on talk page, I can see otherwise though. Just for a second, that talk page was more different mess altogether which has no relation with removing Bayly source either.
For my edits are concerned those are cross checked by several editors now and I can sense you have problem with them since the begining. I gave ample explaination of removing timeline bit, that with over dozen sources contesting 16th century timeline it will clearly be
giving more weightage to certain viewpoint which violates WP:UNDUE that too in lead which is summary of content sourced in article body. My all other content were sourced by atleast 4-5 WP:RS, and expansion of history section was needed where all negative points about them are pushed like Gospels.
Lets leave it alone and get back to main issue here about that quote you asked me to counter She is not saying 16th century chiefs were not descedents of 13th century chiefs (or much earlier which you omitted as well)
My direct reply will be she countered this very statement on page no.32 itself i.e.
In the arid hill country what is now Rajasthan, located southwest to the Mughal original strongholds in gangetic plain, powerful lords had been calling themselves as Rajputs, a tittle derived from the Sanskrit (rajaputra, king's son), as far back as thirteenth century AD and possibly very much earlier
You asked me to counter that sixteenth century Rajput kings were not descended from previous ones ? I posted a long reply in last thread giving ref. to Rana Pratap geneology with Mewar family etc. I am quite bored to discuss on such trivial matter. Please reply how Rana Pratap was not descended from Rana Hammir ? Maldev not from Rao Simha ? Bharmal not from Dhula rai ? Since, all these were so called Mughal era kings who descended indeed from pre mughal elites infact going way back in 12th century and even 8th century for some of them (like Mewar family)
As you claimed, I don't have time to edit Rajput articles, nobody is that free to waste time hours and hours on any site that too with certain predujuice. Neither, I said you are stupid, I don't know you so I can not make anything of youm
This was page was written in a very negative light and still is, I just added sourced content to best of my ability with quotes to refer to.
106.66.43.214 (
talk) 00:53, 14 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics).Editors known for expertise in the field. Editors who have asked to be kept informedbefore making baseless accusations of canvassing. Wikipedia is not a battle ground and I have nothing personally against any caste, community, race, religion or person on wikipedia. I consider myself extremely neutral to all caste topics. I am interested in varna mobility and its effects on women children and others - my focus is not on any particular caste. Just know that I was the one who added the removed image of that fort and I was the one who agreed with the removal of the Rajput fishermen image from this page and I was the one who defended the community against some really bad edits (search for merciless on this talk page) and I was the one who had originally added hospitality to the page. Do you really think I am not neutral? I did not accuse you of calling me stupid - and I am not stupid - I had research published in a peer reviewed journal ("am stupid" was just a phrase I used jokingly for myself) - other wiki editors are not stupid either. I am not going to waste more time on this. I think the article in not negative at all. In fact, several topics are missing. I will create another section for topics that are missing and you will see that the current status of the article is not negative at all. The article (including treament of women) is part of history - no one is accusing present day Rajputs of anything negative. For example, were Rajputs mostly illiterate in the Raj era(as against Brahmins, etc..)? Yes, they were. Are present day Rajputs illiterate? Of course not - I am sure many are scholars. And I have no interest in politics either. Getting back to the topic, I recommend waiting for a few days to hear from others. LukeEmily ( talk) 17:11, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
@ LukeEmily: Aw hell nah; You cleverly ping those editors about whom you are well aware that they can won this consensus for you which you apparently lost.,otherwise are there only these handful of editors who have any knowledge of this topic ? Ofcourse not Yes, Wikipedia or for that matter any enclyopedia must not be treated as a battleground against any caste, relgion, sex etc. But you are as neutral as the enclyopedia is reliable. You are claiming that you added positive aspect of their history despite adding them illiterate, low origin peasant soldiers ?? Adding about their so called mistreatment of women ? Always objecting anything which do not suits your narrative and taking a article back to your prefered version ?? Adding hospitability is nothing which made you a neutral editor, this trait along with valour of Rajputs is even praised by their tyrant enemies so you didn't invent anything out of box which makes you neutral, removing fisherman image makes you neutral ? This thread is now getting into comical territory. Being completely unrelated this article is indeed written in very negative way and I won't even doubt that. You don't need to explain your neutrality your edit history (for which I wasted 2 hours few days back) clearly reflects it. Pots and Kettles. 106.78.41.160 ( talk) 02:35, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
There we go @
RS6784,
Sajaypal007, and
LukeEmily: Another neutral editor took this page back to their prefered version again
Special:MobileDiff/1083009094 by claiming edit war. This is typical of
owning content at enclyopedia by a group of few editors who revert anything which they don't like to their prefered version by dubious edit summaries.
FYI, this content which I added apart from being sourced is cross checked and confirmed by all senior editors. Still claiming yourself to be neutral ??
106.66.42.12 (
talk) 13:05, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
In the book: " The Vernacularisation of Democracy: Politics, Caste and Religion in India by Ms Lucia Michuletti": she explains how Ahirs were trying to Rajputise ( meaning copying the socio-cultural habits of Rajput community not "becoming part of the community here") and how the process never achieved. She has given full explanation to it. Considering the fact this page deals with other community than Ahirs or any such grps. It becomes important to add these conjecture based materials to other pages of such communities rather than WP: UNDUE this whole page here with just possibilities/ half hearted conjectures. RS6784 ( talk) 07:10, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
"Sons of Krishna: the politics of Yadav community formation in a North Indian town" ( 2002) by Lucia Michuletti- "on page 81, 82" she explicitly quotes Dirk H Kolff and mention how Ahirs and such non-elite grps were trying to copy Rajput culture, traditions etc but weren't part of the community.
So adding a reference to twist words of writers might not be the right approach. RS6784 ( talk) 07:30, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
There is an issue of WP:REL, as this subject deals with Ahir grps a different community, so not as relevant to this article. Their imitation of socio-cultural of Rajput community is a different topic to be presented on other page. Rest military recruitment in north whether in purab or even other areas in north included both Rajputs and non-Rajputs ( basically various non-elite grps), many of these grps tried to adopt Rajput cultural habits but this got less to do with the community. Scholar Lucia Michuletti has explained all this properly on page no 81, 82 in "Sons of Krishna: the politics of Yadav community formation in a North Indian town" ( 2002). So, to add everything here on this article crosses WP:REL. Thanks and best RS6784 ( talk) 12:24, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
[1] Are Kolff and Michuletti saying that this Rajputization was not successful? If a family successfully Rajputises it means it is accepted as Rajput by the society including other Rajputs. It does not mean the entire community to which the family originally belonged is accepted as Rajput. Please can you provide relevant quotes from Kolff since he seems to be the common reference here? Thank you. LukeEmily ( talk) 02:32, 18 April 2022 (UTC)Muslim sultans east of Delhi generally relied on intimate alliances with Rajput warlords with their Hindustani peasant infantry, recruited in the east (purab). Rajput chiefs served as brokers. 'Their [the sultan's] overriding interest in recruitment alliances and consensus with Rajput chiefs were expressed, ideologically, in the syncretist, conciliatory idiom that dominated their courts.'38 Rajput warriors converted to Islam without necessarily giving up their way of life. These pre-Mughal Rajputs were not the Rajputs of the seventeenth century Great Tradition but, rather, 'an open status group of warrior-ascetics in search of patronage and marriage'.39 Via a process of Rajputization, peasant castes (like Bhar and Ahir) of eastern Hindustan (purbiya) were integrated into the open status group of warrior ascetics, adopting Rajput values. The warrior hero's death in the battlefield represents the values of kingship.
::Here are the research papers which
RS6784 is pointing towards: Ph.D thesis from University of London (2002)
Sons of Krishna: The politics of Yadav community formation in a north Indian town Thanks
106.66.42.81 (
talk) 06:50, 18 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
For the lead section a number of sources have been provided. Don't remove them as they give the summary of the origin. Heba Aisha ( talk) 05:31, 18 April 2022 (UTC) [7]
References
Muslim sultans east of Delhi generally relied on intimate alliances with Rajput warlords with their Hindustani peasant infantry, recruited in the east (purab). Rajput chiefs served as brokers. 'Their [the sultan's] overriding interest in recruitment alliances and consensus with Rajput chiefs were expressed, ideologically, in the syncretist, conciliatory idiom that dominated their courts.'38 Rajput warriors converted to Islam without necessarily giving up their way of life. These pre-Mughal Rajputs were not the Rajputs of the seventeenth century Great Tradition but, rather, 'an open status group of warrior-ascetics in search of patronage and marriage'.39 Via a process of Rajputization, peasant castes (like Bhar and Ahir) of eastern Hindustan (purbiya) were integrated into the open status group of warrior ascetics, adopting Rajput values. The warrior hero's death in the battlefield represents the values of kingship.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Please change "a refrence to thr sultans" to "a reference to the sultans" - thanks - Arjayay ( talk) 16:43, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
::The original quote is quite clearly mentioned where Thapar made a reference to Rajput clans and their tight knitting by twelfth century. She further mentioned about three ruling clans (Delhi region in fottnotes) i.e. Tomars, Chahamanas & Sakas (two of them were recognised as Rajput clans while last being reference to the Sultan) Thanks and best.
106.66.14.70 (
talk) 17:38, 18 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
It [a Sanskrit inscription of AD 1276] records the building of a baoli and a dharmasala in Palam (just outside Delhi) by Uddhara from Ucca in the Multan district. The inscription, composed by Pandit Yogesvara, dated in the vikram samvat 1333, begins with a salutation to Siva and Ganapati. It then refers to the rulers of Delhi and as the Tomaras, Chauhanas and Sakas, the earlier two having been recognised Rajput dynasties and the last being a reference to the Sultans.
— Thapar, Romila, Cultural Pasts: Essays in Early Indian History, OUP, 2000
White Horserider, it is easy to see the state of knowledge about the subject is rapidly progressing and the conclusions are being revised. It is not proper to state the older scholarly views as facts in this situation. Moreover, they should not appear in the lead. Since this is a page on Prithviraj Chauhan, not on Rajputs per se, spending excessive spae on that issue here is also UNDUE. Those discussions can go in the Rajputs page. Here, just a footnote would suffice, and Chattopadhyaya can be taken to summarise all the old views. (No need to cite dozens of them.) Cynthia Talbot and [Bednar] can be cited for the current views. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:53, 22 June 2021 (UTC). The current page, as edited by 106* does exactly the opposite. At the very least, even if the sources provided by 106* are retained, the order is incorrect and "anachronistic" was also removed from the lead section. If the quotes are made up, it is more serious than edit warring. The protection template was removed on 7th April here : [ [8]] and the edits by 106.* started after that. Please can it be reverted to a stable version before edits by 106* started and then each source can be discussed and added in the right place one by one after independent verification. Thanks, LukeEmily ( talk) 23:21, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
To the editor
Abecedare who claimed of hoaxing and accuse me of making up content this quote is not a self made synthesis by me, it perhaps may be from other pages where writter made a quick reference to Rajput clan structure tight knitting. This is same case with Bayly's sussain reference as well where her half hearted quote is used. In any case, I added over 20,000 words and all content is verified by reliable authors even in
History of Rajput kingdom section of article as well the content addition were from learned academics.
@
LukeEmily: You along with Heba Aisha have been despartely trying to take this article back to your desired version by even claiming it as stable version. There is nothing called stable version that ever exists Wikipedia can be improved on regular basis.
Next for Talbot, her views are presented in ample amount in all sections of article but so must be views of other scholars who backed their content with reaearches and evaluation as serious as her or even more. If around 20 sources denotes Rajput emergence as a community far earlier then Talbot then no way any version should be pushed in lead by overduing it. In case I am looking back again on Thapar work since I have acess to most of the books to point about exact page numbers, I am giving editors few more sources to play with here.
By the end oftwelfth and in subsequent thirteenth century, the term 'Rajput conveyed both political status and an element of heredity. Inter-clan marriages among the rajaputras further strengthened the Rajput identity, a Cambridge university press source:-
By the end of twelfth and in subsequent thirteenth century, the term 'Rajput conveyed both political status and an element of heredity. Inter-clan marriages among the rajaputras further strengthened the Rajput identity
[1]In the early medieval period , the Rajputs belonging to north India were floating around restlessly looking for a home before finally settling down in the Rajputana ( mostly today's Rajasthan )
As noted by Hasan Nizami is his work Tajul-Ma'asir, the In 1192, one of Mahmud's lieutenants and eventual successors, Muhammad of Ghur, defeated the chief opponent of the Muslim raiders, the Hindu Rajput Raja Prithvi Raj Chauhan, outside of his capital at Lolkat
I have even more sources on my hand that claimed early emergence of Rajputs and none of them is cherry picked like the editor himself/herself did that for Baylaly Sussain reference, Since controversy around Thapar work is going around let me add one more renowned work of her where she talked about Rajput clans:- Romila Thapar (1990-06-28). A History of India. Penguin UK. ISBN 978-0-14-194976-5. In chapter 2 she talks about
, I pointed out Thapar's work since that OUP citation was claimed to be made up although since its 1000 + pages book it will requure time to reacess me but sure she did talk about their emergence by 12th century may be quoting Chattopadhyay work not sure. 106.66.6.112 ( talk) 00:11, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock Chariotrider555 ( talk) 23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)The Rajputs rose to political prominence in the ninth and tenth century when they were divided into number of clans of which four aquired special status
Here again, to do verifications of some other quotes as well to not get bad rent of hoaxing, in another work of Dr. Upinder not where she quoted Nandini Sinha kapur herself (other one):-
A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India: From the Stone Age to the 12th Century a excellent work on page number 567, she mentioned this again:-
The usage of term Rajput or Rajaputra for specific clans of Rajput or as a collective term for all Rajput clans emerged by the 12th century. The agnikula myth which refers to the Rajput clan originating from sacrifical fire of Mouth abu is also a fairly modern view. The early medieval bardic tradition of Rajasthan contain 36 clans of Rajputs...
so on and then she mentioned about different Rajput clans in details:-
Parmaras, Chaulkyas, Chahamanas etc. Anything more ??
106.66.6.24 (
talk) 00:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
::I will sir, I have PDF's for almost all Indian scholars major history thesis from 40 yrs in my archieve store. But it's been years I last read this 2000 edition book and it's over 1000 pages will require a careful reading again, At the moment, I am quite busy in personal life and will remain for few days (For preparation oof my sister marriage on 23 April, 2022), Please give me time till 24 April or so and I will mention about it in detail. (including Thapar's book from 1994 or so) and we will discuss competency of this source.
106.66.43.81 (
talk) 03:51, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
References
@
LukeEmily: I already asked for some time due to personal reasons but you pinged me here too by giving reference to a talk page which is irrelevant here and is a complete mess. To read this editor part I have to dug down deep in that discussion which is quite unlikely given the state of that page and time shortage I had till a week or so.
Morever, I can get basic thing here is that He/She are pointing towards usage of Bedner, Talbot and Kolff thesis and their assertion on emergence of Rajput clan structure. Please read this section again, Kolff and Bednar along with Talbot are already given too much importance here. Further, she pointed towards Habib work from 2002, where he added usage of term by Muslim chronicles (which ia debatble itself)
Thus, this book of Habib from 2008 mentioned this quote with no fabrication. Plus, Habib again used this quote (100% sure) in his 2011/2012/2013 book on page 67 or so..I will add full quote and possibly PDF too..
At last I can see they hints toward Dr. Upinder Singh work, I don't know about OUP source, Dr. Singh made a brief reference there to Nandini Sinha Kapur work..,They called for chaper no. and name of author..
I add her renowned famous work from 2008 where they mentioned that
at page 568 or therebouts (100% sure again) then went on to talk about premier Rajput clans of medieval period..The usage of term Rajput or Rajaputra for specific clans of Rajput or as a collective term for all Rajput clans emerged by the 12th century. The agnikula myth which refers to the Rajput clan originating from sacrifical fire of Mouth abu is also a fairly modern view. The early medieval bardic tradition of Rajasthan contain 36 clans of Rajputs...
At last..,I can't dug deep down for 5 days atleast till 24 April. Thanks for best wishes though.
106.66.42.50 (
talk) 10:52, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Chariotrider555 (
talk)
23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
. Not sure how else to say that you can take more time to reply. No urgency. Please reply after 24th. Best, LukeEmily ( talk) 15:50, 19 April 2022 (UTC)Please take your time as the admin has given you more time. For now, relax and enjoy the time with your family
Mr Admin., I am stil very exhausted and don't have ample time to join a long debate till a further weak or so, Plus I did not ask for this gap in bad faith; Personal issues are far more important then editing Wikipedia which isn't even secondary.
I just made a quick edit here because
User:Packer&Tracker removed content like LukeEmily does; so I quickly added content which is more verificable. I still don't have time (till atleast a week or so) to re acess page by page a over 1000 pages book (Most of my pdfs dont have page numbers either) Hope your cooperate in mean time with regards to my short wiki break.
106.66.42.160 (
talk)
01:28, 26 April 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock 23:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
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{{subst:trim|1= Please fix a typo in History of Rajput kingdoms:- Prithviraj fled from battlefield but was caught near Sirsa and waa executed by Ghurids Waa is wrong spelling, fix it to Was. 2409:4051:4E92:B625:FF93:CD7C:ADD9:5243 ( talk) 07:22, 3 May 2022 (UTC)