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Why is it relevant to keep a running tally of Marsden's appearances on O'Reilly's show in this article? She is the Canadian Correspondent for the show and has been on at least 3 times in the last 2 months and as such, it seems stupid to keep a running count that would have to be updated with every appearance.
Marsden calls herself as the "Canadian Correspondent" for O'Reilly on her website; I note that she's not described as such in the program summaries on billoreilly.com (Toronto Sun columnist seems most frequent) or anyehere on Fox's site. A half-dozen unevenly-spaced appearances in 13 months would better be described as "occasional" rather than "regular." Ianking 00:38, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Anyone know if other Canadians are regulars? I know of one Canadian who was on O'Reilly, but as a target, rather than a correspondent-type. Marsden sent me a link to an O'Reilly clip in which it's obvious that she's doing reporting and that she and O'Reilly have worked the interview out in advance. As well, she's in-studio with O'Reilly. If anyone knows of another Canadian pundit who works with O'Reilly this way, I'd like to hear about it. MB
Surely that breaches Wiki policy on sensationalism. This thing's starting to read like a Harlequin Romance.
Mark Bourrie
I cannot find any Wiki policy on sensationalism. Can someone point it out to me? Bucketsofg 23:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I saw a link to the Wiki entry on sensationalism. Apparently, there's no Wiki policy on it per se. The fact that she sent e-mails, toyts, etc., is established. This goes way too far into sensationalism. I think your little wink tells me a lot, Bucket. Would all this stuff be in here if she weighed 300 pounds and had lousy bone structure? As well, it is unproven, just an allegation from one side quoted in a newspaper. To be fair, you'd have to find and post all of Masrden's allegations against Donnelly. Keep in mind these allegations were never disproven. Donnelly was rehired, ostensibly, because he was the target of a flawed process. The allegations of rape, etc., while probably untrue, were never adjudicated by a court or by a properly-operating sexual harassment committee. Mark Bourrie
I'm not sure I understand Ian's 20/20 point (posted via Cyberboomer). Connie Chung left in early 2002. But Marsden's cv (both versions, I think) says she was assistant in 2000. Now, frankly, I suspect that this is incorrect, but I'm not sure why Chung's 2002 departure is relevant. Can someone explain? Bucketsofg 22:33, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is the passage in question: Bucketsofg 22:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Marsden's resume, both the one referenced on this page and an archived version from August 2003 from the Wayback Machine, claim that she worked at 20/20 in 2000, while the IMDB entry states that the episode she helped produce aired in June 2003. In addition, the archived version of her homepage from 2001 has a link to an entirely different 20/20 story than that in the IMDB entry. Further to that, Chung left ABC for CNN in January 2002. (As posted by Cyberboomer)
I guess what I don't see is where the IMDb entry says Marsden's episode was in June 2003. I suggest that we try to find a concensus about his before we re-install it (if we do). Can people edit the above passage in place until we get there? Bucketsofg 22:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to greatly expand this section with lengthy quotes from contemporary sources. I'm doing this for now in order that we can include as much as of the argument from both sides as possible. Once we've gotten everything in, perhaps we can begin on how to make it more concise. Bucketsofg 02:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I read the harassment stories through. The whole incident is, quite frankly, repellent. I don't believe the "Marsden made the whole thing up" version has the ring of truth. The BC Business story says Donnelly admitted to having Mardsen in his apartment twice. I'm left wondering what on earth was going through his mind, if, in fact, she was harassing him. Marsden, herself, is not a convincing witness. It's pretty clear that, whatever Donnelly did, Marsden was a quite willing and eager participant. Most of the blame for the actual crisis, though, should go to the Sexual Harassment office and its administrator, O'Hagan. What's clear from the BC Business story is that the centre had a track record of faulty decision-making. Some eleven cases were thrown out once the workings of the office were investigated. That says to me that eleven people quietly suffered as similar fate to Donnelly, and that claims like Marsden's were encouraged. Had the office acted effectively, the Marsden/Donnelly case would have been properly adjudicated, Donnelly would likely have kept his job, and Stubbs would not have had his breakdown.
I would suggest the fact should be added into the entry that another eleven cases were tossed when O'Hagan's actions were investigated. Otherwise, the piece is about right.
I wonder, too, what Morgan was thinking. A guy 30 years older than Marsden, going out with someone who's known for the SFU stuff, then going to the police when the predictable problems start.
I know Marsden from a news dicussion forum, where she posts some pretty funny and self-deprecating stuff, and she invited me onto her radio show, and, I must admit, I had a great time talking to her (by phone). My own journalistic specialty has been writing about the wrongly convicted and the wrongly accused in criminal and terrorism cases. I found the original version of this entry to be the kind of writing that I had seen used against Liban Hussein, Mahar Arar, and against people accused (and later vindicated) in so-called sex cases. I'm glad this has been fixed and I think bucketsofg has put everything onto the page that a person would need to determine that, in the SFU case at least, the issues were more complicated that a one-off false allegation of harassment. Mark Bourrie 21:19, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, here's the SFU press release where John Stubbs announced he was taking extended leave as a result of depression: http://www.sfu.ca/mediapr/sfnews/1997/July31/president.html
I added this in the interest of NPOV: "Marsden's claims were never adjudicated by a court or a reconstituted university sexual harassment committee and no charges were laid against anyone involved in the controversy."
Given that the IMDb article does exist, and that it does refer to Marsden working at 20/20 as a production assistant, I suggest that we say something like "Marsden's role as production assistant on 20/20 is difficult to substantiate, and there is no corrobating evidence that she was Connie Chung's assistant. According to a National Post reporter, ABC denies Marsden worked there in any capacity." Bucketsofg 20:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that's OK, with a link to IMDB and the National Post, to get both versions. MB
I've deleted the reference to a recent story about Donnelly's team being suspended for a hazing episode that included sexualized talk. The question is what is the relevance to an article about Marsden. Maybe one could argue that there is sexuality involved here and sexuality involved in the Marsden-Donnelly episode. But the report does not imply that Donnelly was actually involved: quite the opposite, it says that it was the 19-team members (story here), with the older members hazing the younger. Bucketsofg 19:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Then why did the Globe feel it necessary to call him? This article is full of inneundo about Marsden. This leaves some doubt that the whole SFU story came out. MB
You don't get it. The Wiki article is full of innuendo about Marsden. Re Donnelly: The guy is accused of sexual harassment/assault. He doesn't show up to his own hearing (with the lame excuse that his lawyerr told him not to, for reasons unstated and, quite frankly, unimaginable, when counsel boycotts the sessions, too. Would YOU show up? I work for a university, and I assure you that no lawyer would stop me from putting forward a defence, especially if my case was as open and shut as the Fraser Institute* paper claims. Then, not a huge time later, his team is busted for weird sexual/hazing behaviour. The Globe calls Donnelly as a spokeman for the team -- his team, the one that he won coach of the year for operating. Why does the Globe call him? Because he's the guy in charge. It must stay in.
I take it Pasboudin, Homey, and, to an extent Bucketsofg, somehow support this prof in his work, and are willing to take his "research" at face value, knowing he's opposed to the university having a sexual harassment discipline system? I'm glad I'm not keeping company with this type of "academic".
BTW, please don't chop up my posts with your answers. Post them at the end, pls. MB
OK. CBC makes it very clear that Donnelly heard about it after the fact:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/sports/national/2006/02/25/Sports/simon_fraser_hazing060225.html
MB
I have no problems with this article as it is now (Feb. 25). I think it covers the bases without being strident. I'd like to thank Bucketsofg for his thoughtful work on this. Mark Bourrie
Hi, Mark. Listen, here is what IMDb says about itself ( [3]):
The information in the Internet Movie Database comes from various sources. Though we do some active gathering of information, the bulk of our information is submitted by people in the industry and visitors like you. In fact, about 70% of our staff is dedicated to processing the massive amounts of information we receive and add to the database every week.
In addition to using as many sources as we can get our hands on, our data goes through a large number of consistency checks to ensure it's as accurate and reliable as possible. However, there's absolutely no substitute for an international team of movie buffs with an encyclopedic knowledge of trivia and a large assortment of reference works (and we include in this group many of our loyal contributors). Our main sources of information are on-screen credits. We also rely on press kits, official bios, autobiographies, and interviews.
Given the sheer size (over 470,000 titles and 2 million names) and the nature of the information we list, which is often subject to change especially on yet-unreleased films or long-running TV series, occasional mistakes are inevitable and, when spotted/reported, they are promptly verified and fixed. That's why we welcome corrections and submissions.
However keep in mind that our service is provided for the information of users only. It is not provided with the intention that users rely upon the information for any purposes.
In light of this, I think we should be careful about its value. For all we know, someone may have seen the 20/20 claim in Marsden's c.v. and added it to the IMDb. I have tried to neutralize this part of her career section. Bucketsofg 02:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
There are clear problems with the IMDb article on Marsden ( here). It includes among Marsden's 'filmography' an appearance on a "Crossfire" Episode dated 3 July 2002. There are complete transcripts for Crossfire on the CNN site, and that episode is ( here). It makes no mention of Marsden. If you search for Marsden on the CNN site, you get this from the 2 July 2002 episode ( here): "UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening Mr. Carville and Mr. Novak. My name is Rachel Marsden (ph), and I'm from Vancouver, Canada. And this is a question for Mr. Carville. Mr. Carville: How do you respond to comments suggesting that Bill Clinton and his administration blew their chance at capturing bin Laden after the embassy bombings in 1998?" The mistaken date, of course, is trivial. But the characterization of Marsden's role is obviously inflated. Marsden was not cast, but a caller. Why did IMDb get this wrong? Because they rely on whoever submits information to get things right. Bucketsofg 03:30, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
A reading of the IMDB page shows this is the process:
"You may report errors and omissions on this page to the IMDb database managers. They will be examined and if approved will be included in a future update. Clicking the button on the left will take you through a step-by-step process."
That means someone checked and found the Mrasden page was valid. You do not write your own IMDB page (unlike Wikipedia). MB
IMDB does say it checks before posting, but sometimes makes errors. Kinda like the National Post, and certainly like the Fraser Institute, which is relied on so heavily here despite the red flags raised by its Wiki entry. BTW can people please ID themselves in this discussion? MB
By the same token, go read the Wiki entry on the Fraser Institute, and see why so many academics shudder at using its work as a main source for an article like this. Seems any source is good enough for you, as long as it makes Marsden look bad. MB
There is a date conflict between IMDB and Marsden's own claims about when she did her stint at 20/20. Marsden's resume, both the one referenced on the page and an archived version from August 2003 from the Wayback Machine claims that she worked at 20/20 in 2000; there was no mention of any additional stints at ABC News. The IMDB entry states that the episode she helped prudice aired in June 2003. In addition, the archived version of her homepage from 2001 has a link to an entirely different 20/20 story than that in the IMDB entry. Ianking 01:09, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to have reverted you, but let's work slowly at this article and try to find common ground. Making sweeping changes will only get sweeping reverts.
Hi all. The reversion war that is going on here is getting hard to keep track of. Can both sides perhaps try to work towards versions that the other may find palatable (or if not palatable, then acceptable)? I'm going to start editing through this article in this direction. It might be helpful if we try an incremental approach: that is, one small issue at a time. Bucketsofg 21:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
This is my stab at how this article should start. "Rachel Marsden (born December 2, 1974) is a controversial Canadian media personality and political commentator, currently a columnist for the Toronto Sun." That she is controversial is surely well illustrated by the arguments about this article. 'Media personality'? Maybe, maybe not. Tell me what you think. "Political commentator" and "columnist" is there from before. If you want to change or improve this, say why here. Bucketsofg 22:20, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Good. If she was an activist, she isn't now, as far as I know. MB
It seems to me that in these few sentences we need to tell the reader what is best known about her, which is (I think) the television punditry and harassment cases. (If you think otherwise, or have something to add) explain why.) For both these points, however, I think we should leave the details about what TV show and the specifics of the harassment charges to the body of the article below. Then I think we conclude with her current position. Bucketsofg 22:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that we delete "Marsden has formal training in acting and experience as a runway model and portrait photographer" as not terribly relevant, but I'm happy for someone to revert me here if they can come up with a good reason to keep this. (Please note that 'it is true' is not quite enough to justify inclusion. Please explain relevance.) Bucketsofg 22:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Agree. I don't think she's done modelling lately. At 31, she's unlikely to break into it now in a big way. MB
I have revised "Marsden is an alumnus of the National Journalism Center's training program for conservative journalists" to "M. attended …". First, the direct verb 'attended' is more concise than 'is an alumnus of'. Second, sound usage requires 'alumnus' to be of the institution, not the program. (I am an alum of X university, not of the program in history of x University.) Third, one really doesn't use the word 'alumnus' in an educational context when the institutions in questions are are not colleges or universities. (It would in any case be, ahem, 'alumna') Bucketsofg 23:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Is it supposed to have some meaning? I've never heard of the place. Would sessions at a colloquium or conference show up in any other journalist's entry? Or little unpaid internships and college clubs, like her radio show? Most people just have their degrees listed, and that would be it. MB
In the reversion tussle that's been going on, it seems to have escaped people's notice how unsatisfactory some parts of the article are. The background and career section is a good example. At the very least, I think we should invert these two paragraphs. I think both could use some trimming, too. Which I'll begin.
As compared to an anonymous source quoted in one newspaper article that makes her look like an outright liar? I think in fairness we should go with the least derogatory. We are dealing with a person's reputation, so we should tread carefully. MB
I think the latest wording works. MB
I've tightened this up, leaving all the allegations of resume fudging but taking out the quotes. I have no doubt that Marsden worked at 20/20 in some capacity, especially after finding the imdb database entry, which, to me, is as solid a source as one unnamed ABC employee quoted in a newspaper article. I do believe it was for a short time and was almost certainly as an intern. Rather than have the drawn-out Post quotes, I simplified it by stating the resume claims and saying they were challenged by media. MB
Who is the ABC employee? No name, no title. Could be someone who just answered the phone. I really am amazed at how much trust is placed here in newspaper journalism. MB
I have taken out the suggestion she was fired by the Post because no one has proved it. Suffice to say she didn't last long. People who know the Post realize there has been a steady turnover of senior staff and editors. At most, she was canned after her boss was fired, but other sources say she was hired by one of the Asper brothers. There is no proof she was fired for cause or for anything connected with the harassment, as all of that stuff happened before Marsden was hired and surely was known by her employers )if the read their own paper). MB
Political work
I took this out: "Once a supporter of the federal Liberal Party, she volunteered in a federal electoral campaign for Kwangyul Peck in Burnaby—Kingsway." Why in the world would anyone care? I switched "fired" to "lost her job", since there's some dispute. The authors obviously discount Grewal's version, even though he was her direct employer. Too much POV. "Lost her job" says just that. People can read the paragraph and weigh the reputations of Grewal and the Conservative party's unnamed spokesperson. In my opinion, having to choose between the two requires too much of a leap of faith. MB
I've just never heard of the Liberal guy. I take it he lost, which means she didn't work for him for long. An election campaign, maybe? That's five weeks. Also there's no date or other time frame. It just kind of hangs there. The animal rights stuff could be interesting. Don't tell me she let a bunch of minks go? I know she's written in opposition to the seal hunt. I believe the piece was called "When Newfies Go Clubbing." MB
The Wiki entry for Toronto Sun identifies it as a conservative tabloid. Do you disagree with the entry? Pasboudin 18:43, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it's an accurate description. Problem is, if Fox is conservative, do we say CBC is liberal, or the National Post is conservative? It's clear for the Sun and for Fox, but it eventually becomes tricky. Like CNN, CTV, the Globe and Mail.
I took out the reference to Prof. Neil Boyd. What is "contacted by the police" supposed to mean? She wasn't charged with anything. I hope someone else reworks this section. Keep in mind, whoever edits this, that Donnelley refused to take part in the original harassment hearing, which means to me he was either involved with her and/or that he didn't have respect for the harassment complaint system. The fact that he boycotted the panel is glossed over in the report and, to me, leaves a glaring question unanswered. I can assure you that, had I been in Donnelley's place, I would have been at that panel, no matter what my lawyer said. Also keep in mind that the Fraser Institute report cited so often in this section was written by a Simon Fraser prof who now sits in the university Senate as a vocal critic of sexual harassment protection for women. I suspect this was a very complicated case in which Marsden was very much at fault, but I doubt the entry should be this length. As for the Morgan incident, the conviction was vacated (as in a pardon) when the condition of the discharge -- the year's probation -- was fulfilled.
The charge is criminal harassment, not criminal stalking. In fact, it's a better description, as stalking suggests following a person and invading their privacy. It appears Marsden was more intent on disrupting Morgan's life in a harassing way. The section flips from active to passive voice and past and present and future tenses. This needs to be fixed. IKt's also poorly written and some of the verbiage could be cut.
Media Controversies
The issue of weapons of mass destruction is not so cut and dried. Marsden is not a spokesperson for the Administration, so she's entitled to believe there were WMDs in Iraq. Some conservative/rightist commentators in the US believe the WMDs were moved to Syria before or during the invasion. I've seen this scenario show up in the mainstream media. Marsden and those who share her WMDs views could argue that Saddam certainly had WMDs when he gassed the Kurds, and that it wasn't unreasonable to believe poison gas could be hidden in Iraq. Like many other statements in this article's original version, it casts Marsden as dishonest when a reasonable person could come to the conclusion she's in error or immature. I would take this graf out. MB
I get the feeling that this is a very anti-feminist article. I also believe it has a strong underlying tone of "she's a bad woman and she gets to be on TV and in the papers. Why not me?" It reeks of envy, mysoginity and of anonymous back-stabbing. I've had enough of this piece. I'm going to ask Wikipedia to read the discussion below and take down the article.
I posted this on Jimbo Wales' talk page:
Something should be done about the "Rachel Marsden" page. In my professional opinion, as a journalist with 25 years experience in Canada, it breaches the Canadian libel laws and leaves Wikipedia open to a lawsuit. It's incredibly biased, uses discredited sources, ignores sources that contradict its negative POV, and appears to be an attempt to ruin the reputation of its subject. Marsden was involved in two harassment scandals, but the article tries to link her private life to her politics and her work as a columnist, and accuses her of lying about her qualifications. Formerly, it published information about a man with the same surname, claiming, without proof, that he was her father (as though that should matter). I have tried to make the article fair but have had it reverted. I don't want to become some kind of crank. It just bugs me that a couple of writers and a Wikipedia administrator perpetrate this entry and continue to defend it. I have never met Masrden and I don't work with her or have professional dealings with her. You have already posted on the dicussion page, but to no avail. I suggest the page come down or be reduced to a minimal entry, as the subject is not a major player in Canadian journalism and the harassment controversies are now of minimal public interest. Mark Bourrie M.J., PhD (cand) Dept of History University of Ottawa, Canada
I've done all I can to make this article fair. It's so obviously biased that I doubt anyone could take it seriously. It is a disgrace to Wikipedia and everyone involved with it should search their conscience and be ashamed.
Mark Bourrie
Are you ashamed Jimbo will see how you operate here? But is Claude Marsden Rachel's father? PROVE IT. And why does it matter? IK am not going to continue to roll in the mud with pigs. Pigs like it too much. Mark Bourrie
Marsden was production assistant at 20/20. See http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0501728/fullcredits a piece on Johnny Depp, 2003, where Marsden is listed as a production assistant. It was easy to find. Googled "Rachel Marsden" and "20/20". So, again, how much research has gone into making sure this entry is accurate and fair? Mark Bourrie
I think the latest version of this article works OK. I'm glad the stuff about Claude Marsden (her father?) has finally been taken out. I read the Fraser Institute paper and I didn't think much of it. The author is a professor at Simon Fraser who has launched his own campaign to undermine the university's sexual harassment system. He now sits on the university senate, where, even he admits, he's a disruptive influence. I am still left with questions, such as whether a relationship did exist between Donnelly and Marsden, and why Donnelly did not make any defence at all to the first allegations. I have my own suspicions, but when things look complicated, it's usually because they are complicated. Suffice to say that if I was completely innocent and sitting on e-mails that showed my accuser was lying, I would have produced them right away, no matter what my lawyer told me. As for the Connie Chung stuff, at least one Sun link says she actually did worked there. It seems that the National Post allegation trumps the Sun statement. Since Sun managing editor Gord Walsh has such an interest in this page (and no interest in defending a colleague), maybe he can straighten it out. There was also an error in the old article saying Claude Marsden had been "convicted" of sexual interference with a student. A reading of the link does, in fact, show he admitted to it to a professional discipline board. there is no proof he was convicted by any court of law. There is also no proof that Claude Marsden is Rachel Marsden's father. As for Marsden believing there are/were WMDs in Iraq, she certainly isnt' the only right-winger who held to that belief at the time. Does that mean Marsden is dishonest? Or does it mean the Bush White House propaganda about WMDs was so pervasive, and the later admissions so low-key, that at least some true believer-types missed the bus when the story line changed? All this, of course, is used to structure a Wikipedia entry that says Marsden is dishonest. There are a handful of Wikipedia writers and at least one adminstrator who have taken a very personal stake in seeing that this remains the theme of the article. I doubt very much they are working from an objective or disinterested point of view. That said, since the material about Claude Marsden is now gone and some of the rest of the article has been cut or toned down, I think it's probably best to leave it, unless someone adds something new and newsworthy. I think, between the obvious bias of teh arfticle and the material posted here, fair-minded people can find enough facts to draw their own conclusions. Mark Bourrie
I think the stuff about her dad should go. Even if it's all proven it was not even a similar charge. He was accused of sexual assault of a student, an act that's far different, and much more serious, than Rachel Marsden's "stalking", which, in the second case, involved sending e-mails and making phone calls. In the Liam Donnelly case, Marsden was not the alleged sexual assault perpetrator, but the supposed victim. Rachel Marsden has never been accused of forcing anyone to have sex. She's been accused of lying and convicted of being a scary nuisance.
First, I think you either don't understand the definition of "sock puppet" or you are throwing around an allegation that's untrue.
This exchange on my messages file and explains my insistence that this entry is unfair and is not up to basic academic standards
Just because something is sourced with a link does not necessarily make it true. Many articles have errors and "truths" can be strung together to form innuendo. I find the stuff about Marsden's father to be utterly loathsome, and I'd fail you if you were one of my students and included that. You ignore the points I make, then go running back to the line that "links" are "proof". Links to blogs and one article do not form a proof. You obviously are unfamiliar with what is accepted as "proof" in academia and in law. Wikipedia suffers from this kind of "scholarship".
I think there are a handful of people with some sort of vested interest in retaining a high level of smear and innuendo in this article. The amount of bias is overwhelming. I think I've made my case about this article several times over. It's a shame that Wikipedia authors and editors work in anonymity. I suppose most cannot feel proud of what they do, at least in regards to this entry.
As someone who works at the Sun, I find myself baffled and confused by what's going on in here, particularly the recurrent suggestion that a Sun article is suspect because the Sun is a tabloid, as though we are on par with scurrilous supermarket tabloids. We operate under the same journalistic standards, with most of the same libel lawyers, as every major newspaper in Canada. We also employ Rachel Marsden, who is clearly on this site (right above me, I suspect) and seemingly in cahoots with Mark Bourrie. There is nothing in the Wikipedia entry that is false, and I have been watching this discussion for a while and have gone back through various sources to check out its veracity. The Sun Media chain does not print lies. If Ms. Marsden or Mr. Bourrie would like to continue to suggest otherwise, perhaps the Sun has a libel case on its hands. Gordon Walsh.
The Sun doesn't print lies, certainly not on purpose. I know many people there and I've worked on the Sun, and they are honest. Including, BTW, Rachel Marsden. Writers have to keep their articles very short. A detailed and nuanced situation is hard to adequately report in six or eight inches. It does -- like all papers -- do its work very, very quickly. It's easy for people to find stories that suit their purposes. Mark Bourrie
142.78.56.9 and 142.78.64.223, both from public terminals in the National Library of Canada. Please stop removing sourced content. Wiederaufbau 16:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
So a guy with a **Ph.D** in media studies and media history (in other words, an expert and a professor) attempts to add balance to this highly biased and flat-out false Wikipedia entry, giving detailed justification and careful reasoning for each change, and all of his work gets reverted?! And people wonder why Wikipedia has developed a reputation of being nothing more than a bulletin board, run by left-wing militants, used as a vehicle for drive-bys against their ideological opponents?! The Rachel Marsden Wikipedia entry has to be the most blatantly biased and defamatory piece of garbage in the entire Wikipedia collection. Not to mention that the entry for this journalist/commentator is longer than the Wikipedia entry for the Canadian Prime Minister! Unbelievable. 70.25.152.39
Wikipedia does look bad when people put this much "work" in a smear job. Like the poster says below, this is the longest, most "detailed" article on ANY Canadian joyrnalist or columnist. Surely it's overkill. Jamie Bradie
I agree that this seems utterly biased and an attempt to "slam" a Wiki article subject. From the first line, I learn that she's supposedly a "rightist"? That's a politically loaded word, and I have to wonder why aren't other articles for journalists labeled "leftists"? Consider other entires for minor players in the cable TV (see the FLUFFY entry for Amanda Congdon) and the rather straightforward entry for Mike Wallace (journalist) and the BY FAR downplayed widespread allegations of bias in the article on Dan Rather. And yet, considering the "scandal"-laden article for Brit Hume and Ms. Marsden, I think I'm seeing a pattern of bias here. Wikipedia's Neutral point of view policy requires a fair and sympathetic tone when discussing controversies, no bias, and no undue weight towards one view or another. I also have to point out that simply saying, "I've got sources" is no excuse to BURY an article in allegations and scandal. Sensationalism is not allowed on Wikipedia. Nhprman 02:45, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Do you know the guy who organized the first Woodstock festivl gets about 1/10th of the entry length of this. It's ridiculous that a few people should go out and find the most sucrrilous stuff possible, including things like the Western Standard article that are known to have major errors, and insist the target of the work must "prove" that these articles are wrong. As for the WMD controversy, there are still people who believe somehow it was taken out of Iraq during the invasion, particularly to Iran and Syria. I don't agree, but certainly believing that scenario does not make someone dishonest.
I have edited this page and I would have taken out more but I don't want to be accused of vandalizing. At best, Marsden has been involved in a very local Canadian controversy. Much of the personal material is drawn from a single source, The Western Standard, which is not a publication known for its veracity. Much of the rest is drawn from a few tabloid newspaper articles.
I think they're right. Who would hand in a high school essay with sourcing from a couple of blogs, the Western Standard and the Sun newspaper? Those are hardly credible sources. Wkipedia scholarship should be at the level of hard copy encyclopedias, especially in an article that is this negative. In Canadian and US libel law, it's up to the author to prove the statement is true. It's not up to the reader or the smear target to prove the statement is false.
Is an old stalking controversy in Canada really worth this much Wikipedia space? The first instance did not result in charges, while the second was settled with a conditional discharge. In the Canadian system, that's a sort of warning. The "seriousness" of this case can be determined by the actions of the court. The court found there was no need for any sort of incarceration, fine or even probation. The conditions of the discharge appear to have been met and there is no criminal record. In effect, Marsden got less of a sentence than a common shoplifter mighht expect.
There is no good reason at all for including the material about Marsden's father. Same for the fact that she was granted credits so she could graduate. As well, I see an implication throughout the article that Marsden acts unprofessionally as a journalist because of these stalking incidents. If the ownership of the Washington Times and UPI is to be placed in this article, for whatever value it has, then the ownership of the rest of the media mentioned -- the Western Standard, the ABC network, the National Post, the Toronto Sun, Fox News, HBO -- should also be included out of fairness. Better yet, leave it out.
The material about Marsden's "work" at ABC is unfair, since no one seems to have researched whether all "interns" and student volunteers are on file, or whether someone can just volunteer as a "go fer" at ABC. Years ago, when I was a student, I worked for free as an assistant to a newspaper columnist. I doubt there's a paper record of it.
The "suggestive pictures" on Marsden's web site were fully-clothed modelling shots and were flagged as such. I also took out the entire "controversy" in the "conservative press" because it involved, on one side, one article in a low-circulation commercial magazine and, on the other, the comments of a single blogger. I also took the blog links out. In all, it appears this article is cudgel being used to do as much damage as possible to the reputation of a middling Canadian newspaper columnist. It is sourced, for the most part, a very small number of obscure and untested articles. A proliferation of this type of entry can give Wikipedia a bad rep. I would also remove some of the rest of the links, which are, again, to material of dubious value to scholars. As a Canadian historian, I would not be happy with a paper that relied on this material -- a single article in the right-wing fringe Western Standard, a report (not peer-reviewed) by the Fraser Institute, one court document in a case that ended in a discharge, without punishment and a criminal record, and some Sun tabloid stories -- to make the case that someone is unfit to be a newspaper columnist. And I can't see any other interpretation of the theme of this artice.
It is not "sourced" well. It relies primarily on a report (not peer reviewed) from a right-wing think tank, on one magazine article, some material from the Sun tabloid newspapers, and two blog entries. It is over-kill and smacks of a smear job. I doubt anyone who had anything to do with writing this would put their name and their reputation on it. It goes far past anything resembling scholarship and well into voyeurism. MB
Mark Bourrie MJ, Ph. D. (cand), Dept. of History/Communications, University of Ottawa
Mark Bourrie replies:
Why is the ownership of the Washington Times more important, then, than the ownership of The Western Standard? Since when is an argument between a small regional magazine and a single blogger a "conservative controversy"? Since when does Wikipedia include the records of a person's father on a biographic post? This article is not up to any reasonable standards of scholarship. It looks to me like the author and some Wikipedia people have an ax to grind with this woman and are prepared to do whatever it takes to keep this post up. I think someone from the States should look at the post and this discussion and determine if this is up to Wikipedia's standards.
'
I think Bourrie's right. His version covers the bases without going into the crimes of her family and, for heaven's sake, how many credits she earned/did not earn. Does every Canadian newspaper columnist get that kind of treatment or is this something local/personal? The fixation on this woman is strange. For instance, she's often satirised in Frank Magazine. So what? Isn't everyone who's famous in Canada? Is Frank Magazine even in business anymore? Is being in Frank Magazine justification for a huge Wikipedia entry on one columnist on a Toronto tabloid newspaper? Come on, folks, have some sense of proportion. Maybe you can get her driving abstract, too? Or her dental records? Michael Valpy, who has been a far more successful and long-term columnist, a former managing editor of the Globe and Mail, who has written books, won awards, and run for Parliament, gets six lines on Wikipedia. Peter Worthington gets 16 lines ()less than half Marsden's entry. Paul wells gets 15 lines and one link. Perspective, please! 70.25.152.39
Just for reference, two bits about her education that fell out of the orbit of the main article:
Speaking now as an ordinary editor, I feel that the tone of this article is excessively negative to the point of editorializing inappropriately.
As an example, we say "with a minor in French, a language in which she claims fluency.". Ok, if she did minor in French in college, is there any particular reason why we should doubt her claimed fluency? What is the purpose of the clause? Has any published source ever doubt it? (If so, then let's have a citation.) Just because she is controversial, this is not a justification for random insinuations.
There are many other details of this nature in this article and related articles.-- Jimbo Wales 12:27, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Wow, I'm surprised Marsden is worthy of an entry!
The Western Standard was widely quoted in the election when they leaked the Liberal platform. I'm not particularly a fan of the magazine but I think it's certainly been shown to be an acceptable source - particularly on conservative topics. I wonder, 70.25..., would you consider the Canada Free Press" a "vanity pamphlet" not worthy of being cited or does the fact that it has praised Marsden and published her articles exempt it from that epithet? Homey 16:23, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The Canada Free Press is a blog. The Western Standard is a magazine with a minimal paid circulation of 20,000.
This incident appears to be at the root of this dispute: http://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/judgments/pc/2004/03/p04_0369.htm
Under BC law this incident may be removed from the records of the court in a few years and she will have no "criminal record". If our editors have not understood this subtlety that is to be expected, see http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/crimrec/pandp_e.htm and http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/44958.html#section-730 from which note:
"2) Alternative measures shall not be used to deal with a person alleged to have committed an offence if the person (a) denies participation or involvement in the commission of the offence"
So she had to admit to the court that she had committed the offense in order to receive the sentence of "discharge" So the problem in the article is to adequately set forth this rather complicated situation rather than expressing the matter in the bald but inaccurate statement: "She was convicted of stalking." Fred Bauder 14:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
`1 Marsden has no criminal record, period. Her condition -- a year's probation -- is over, and she is discharged by the court. HOTR continues to revert to a version saying she was convicted of "criminal stalking" when the charge was actually "Criminal harassment". In fact, once the year's probation was completed, her conviction was vacated.
The article does not assert she has a criminal record or that she has a criminal conviction recorded. It asserts, correctly, that she pleaded guilty of a crime and was given a condtional discharge. Mark, I suggest you read the conditional discharge article rather than removing the link to it from this article. I have not reverted to a version of this article that claims she has a criminal record, I have reverted to a version that states, correctly, that she pleaded guilty and was found guilty and given a discharge. I'm sorry Mark either doesn't understand the difference or feels it's necessary to make an untrue statement about what I've reverted to. Homey 02:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The notion that Rachel Marsden engaged in "forgery" seems to have come from http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/pps/25/section_06.html which is part of http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/pps/25/ The author is David Finley http://oldfraser.lexi.net/about_us/people/david_finley.html
The link forged which while it does not focus on forgery as a felony, unfortunately has the connotation of serious criminal behavior while the actual incident was more of a prank. Another problem is that this is expressed as a bald statement of fact, not an "according to" statement. Fred Bauder 14:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Please stop removing references to Marsden's guilty plea. In Canadian law a conditional discharge involves a judge finding an offender guilty. Though there is no conviction there is still a verdict of guilt. Please read the conditional discharge article. Since conditional discharges are usually offered only in a plea bargain, they usually involve a plea of guilt from the offender. This was the case with Marsden:
Again, please stop removing references to Marsden's guilty plea. Homey 15:01, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Mark Bourie, I've addressed several of your points in my latest edit. I've removed the link to the blog entry. I've removed the reference to Frank magazine which isn't entirely relevant. I also removed the sentence about Marsden receiving several unearned credits. Hopefully with this good faith gesture we can all work together to make this article better. Much of the rest of what you're deleting (and I've reverted) is relevant and referenced with reliable sources, however. Pasboudin 21:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the stuff about her dad should go. Even if it's all proven it was not even a similar charge. He was accused of sexual assault of a student, an act that's far different, and much more serious, than Rachel Marsden's "stalking", which, in the second case, involved sending e-mails and making phone calls. In the Liam Donnelly case, Marsden was not the alleged sexual assault perpetrator, but the supposed victim. Rachel Marsden has never been accused of forcing anyone to have sex. She's been accused of lying and convicted of being a scary nuisance.
(Great spelling, chum)
The Western Standard article is a poor source because it contains errors. For instance, it calls her a "convict" -- which a click on the link to the "conditional discharge" entry will show is false -- and a "fraud artist", a criminal allegation that is not based on a charge, let alone a conviction.
I think these allegations against Marsden would have greater weight if the police had charged her with mischief in the Donnelly case. I don't know why they didn't, but I suspect there were aspects and complications which they did not wish to draw out in court. However, for people like us who are picking through the ashes, such a case would have certainly clarified things. Donnelly did provide proof Marsden stalked him. However, the allegation that he had a sexual relationship, one that is unethical, between a student and a university instructor/coach, was never dealt with by any forum except the one boycotted by Donnelly. I would state the allegation against Donnelly was "unproven", rather than false, but that Donnelly "proved" Marsden was a willing participant in anything that happened, and did harrass him.
I'm also not sure the line about Les Pyette hiring Marsden is right. I heard she was hired by one of the Asper brothers and she stayed a while after Pyette was fired. I've heard Jonathan Kay, the editorial page editor, pushed her out, not the new publisher. Since Pyette's not known -- doesn't even warrant a Wikipedia entry on his own -- you might re-consider. Something else to consider: the Post cut most of its freelance budget at the time, and Marsden's column was pretty expensive. It did, apparently, pull a good readership, perhaps for the same slowing-down-at-the-accident-scene reason that this page gets. With all the other nasty talk in this entry, I wonder if someone in the general public might draw the erroneous conclusion Marsden was fired for cause.
By the way, Pasboudin, your sourcing and your skills as an editor would be more impressive to me if you spelled my name right.
(Don't worry in that regard. MB) Mark Bourrie, MJ, Ph. D. (Cand), Dept. of History/Communication, U of Owe.
As the vandalization of this entry continues endlessly, I have to ask what any of this has to do with political leanings, with liberal versus conservative? This woman was involved in a scandal that saw one person's career almost ruined. The president of a major Canadian university ended up losing his job as a result. The events made major headlines. A few years later, she pleaded guilty to criminal harassment of a fairly well-known figure in B.C., suggesting, perhaps, a pattern of some sort. She is a public figure whether she likes it or not DUE TO HER OWN ACTIONS and would be regardless of her political leanings.
There is also nothing in the Wikipedia article that has been proven false or libellous, and in fact it is all well-sourced and has been previously reported in various reputable news publications. I get the feeling from watching this unfold over the past few days that in fact only two people are taking issue with this article: the subject of the article herself and her friend, Mark Bourrie. Their arguments have nothing to do with libel; they have to do with attempting to curtail freedom of speech. In fact, through their repeated harassment and vandalization of this entry, they are attempting to censor Wikipedia. As so-called journalists, I would have expected these two to know the difference between libel and freedom of speech. They apparently do not. Aunt Clara
Yes, I do. Libel is when you distort the truth to harm someone's reputation, and that seems to be both the method and the goal of several posters here. Trying to tar me as Marsden's "friend" is a smear from an a anonymous coward, typical of the garbage that's appeared on this page. I've never met Marsden. I know her writing and I've seen her post some humourous stuff on discussion boards.MB
Interesting, you drop any mention of Marsden being fired by the Post (the way you put it she could have left because she got a better offer), you denigrate the Western Standard but have no comment on the Canada Free Press (or, for that matter UPI). Looks to me like several of your edits are quite POV. [6] Homey 04:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
That's rich. Prove she was fired. If you can't, give her the benefit of the doubt.
That article doesn't say she was fired. Read it again without the blinkers. Maybe she left because Pyette was fired. Your POV and scholarship need serious work. Mark Bourrie
The Western Standard has been assailed for printing the Muhammed cartoons and for publishing a quote saying the premier of Alberta's wife would be "just another Indian" when he leaves office. It is definitely a fring publication. I work on Parliament Hill and it has zero presence here. As for Canada Free Press, I simply don't know it. I have made the articele fairer. I dug up the 20/20 stuff by doing a very simple Google. Seems to me you are hell-bent on publishing as much derogatory material as possible, adding new stuff (the Maclean's stuff) when your old claims of dishonesty against Marsden are proven false. There are several people, including the founder of Wikipedia, who've said this article is way over the top. Too bad we don't know who the handful of people are who insist on its very biased tone. It certainly does seem personal. Mark Bourrie
You do not prove Marsden was fired. Maybe the Sun gave her a better offer. You ignore link in imdb that shows Marsden was a production assistant at 20/20 on at least one show. The fact that the claim turns out to be recorded on imdb, while the National Post source is wrong, suggests pretty strongly that the National Post is wrong about this and the story should be used with care as a source. UPI is still used by newspapers all over the US, it is not a fringe organization. The Washington Times has a circulation of 125,000. Surely all those people Washintonians aren't Moonies? Again, if you are going to put the ownership of UPI/Washington Times in, why not ownshership of all the other media outlets? Are you suggesting Marsden is a Moonie? Or that everyone else who writes for UPI and the Washington Times is one? Western Standard figures are accurate, from recent stories about them printing cartoons of Muhammed. 20,000 paid circulation, another 20,000 given away. Hardly mainstream. As for CFP, if yo have something to add, add it. I really don't know it. It's one of hundreds and hundreds of Canadian blogs. Taken together, an argument between one very controversial (google publisher Ezra Levant's name and read about his decision to run anti-Islam comics) small-circulation magazine and a web site/blogger can hardly be portrayed as some kind of big controversy in the Canadian conservative media. In terms of public exposure, the Sun is far, far bigger, and they employ Marsden as a columnist. HOTR's NPOV is very, very questionable. Mark Bourrie
"The guilty plea seems redundant, since she was found guilty."
You know, you can plead not guilty to a crime and be found guilty. Given that Marsden has at some points denied pleading guilty or making any admission it is not redundant to point out her guilty plea.
It is interesting how you denigrate the Post, a paper that subsequently employed her just as you previously denigrated the Sun, a paper that now employs her and that you now praise. Looks like your opinion of newspapers is determined by their relationship to Marsden more than anything else. Homey 13:32, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
As for Jimbo's comments, they were in reference to the article as it was several months ago, not to the article as it is now. Homey 13:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
The IMDB listing shows the Post was in error. The version criticised by Jimbo is substantially the same as this one, and, at the time, Homey refused changes to that version, too. The Post story quotes an unnamed ABC person -- no title or name attached -- who says she didn't work there, while IMDB credits her with being there for at least the Johnny Depp story. So who would a reasonable person believe. As for Marsden not suing the Post, there were, in fact, corrections to the article published after Marsden complained. Homey continues to revert to a version that says Marsden was fired from the Post, with no proof. Homey is hell-bent on publishing a Wikipedia entry that has errors, innuendo and unsubstantiated derogatory information. Mark Bourrie
"ABC" is officially on the record?!? Who at ABC? The person who answered the phonme? The president? Someone in HR? Someone who could be wrong? Obviously it wasn't much of a source, or the Post reporter would have named her/him and stated their position. That, in fact, is standard journalistic practice.
"As for Marsden not suing the Post, there were, in fact, corrections to the article published after Marsden complained."
Please publish the text of the Post's correction announcement. It's not exactly straightforward to say they published a correction and not say what it was they corrected. Did they retarct the entire article? Did they retract the ABC News claim? Did they simply correct a minor fact such as the year she graduated or what her BA was in? If you teach journalism surely you know better than to just say something as vague as "there were...corrections to the article published" without going into specifics. Homey 02:51, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not a J-school teacher. I'm a history prof. I used to be a journalist. In my professions, you do not publish speculation and innuendo, then demand the target of the innuendo prove that you are wrong. You do not publish second-hand drive-by smears, then say they're accurate because the target didn't sue. The Post story was wrong about 20/20. It said, or at least strongly implied, that she was never there. I am sticking with this entry because I believe it is exactly what's wrong with Wiki: people with hidden agendas and personal axes to grind doing hatchet jobs under nicknames and in anonymity. If you won't put your name on it, you can't be very proud of it. Mark Bourrie
"She might have been an intern" said the ABC source. May she, perhaps, have interned as a production assistant? Has the claim that she was not on ABC's payroll been refuted? Homey 02:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Marsden never claimed to be on ABC's payroll. Cyberboomer's incredible bias shows when s/he tries to take off the imdb link, saying it might be wrong, but accepting everything in a newspaper article, even quotes from anonymous sources, at face value. MB
Fine, you're a history prof- you still haven't told us what, exactly, the Post corrected in thier article. Homey 19:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
You don't deal with any of my objections, including the one about 20/20, imdb, and the fact that she never claimed to be on their payroll. It's not up to me to do your research Re: the Post's clarification. Spend your own money on InfoMart to find it, rather than using Atonia Zerbisias' links to the uncorrected article. You have a "smear 'em and make 'em defend themselves" attitude. It's not up to any standard of scholarship to post or publish derogatory information, then demand the subect of the post or publication prove they are not guilty. And one or two newspaper stories using unnamed sources does not constitute enough proof of wrongdoing by any standard of fairness? Why don't you get it? Plus you can't spell. MB
Mark 1) why have you removed the (sourced) Grewal material 2) why did your edit note not mention this rather major change? Homey 19:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC) I\'m not sure which sourced material. I changed \"fired\" to \"lost her job, as there\'s some matter of debate on this (between the newspaper and Grewal). I took out the reference to her Liberal work because it seemd brief and unimportant. The guy was a candidate and was never elected, so by definition it was short-term work. I suppose it is interesting that she was a Young Liberal, and someone put in a date. MB
Nice edit on the Sticks and Stones documentary, Mark.
If you bothered to consult your own source, you might have realized that:
- 5 of the 12 letters posted were negative (majority?)
(I did a recount and found 6 and 6, if you interpret the last letter as hostile to the piece. I realize now its meaning is unclear) MB.
- 85% of all received letters were positive
(So the CBC says) MB
But of course as we all know by now, you care very little about the accuracy of your entries. It is clear that you are simply here to push a particular viewpoint with unsubstantiated claims like this one and whitewashing, incredibly while baselessly accusing your fellow editors of the same thing. Your POV-pushing is mind-boggling. Pasboudin 02:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I certainly never accused anyone of whitewashing this entry. MB
MY POV-pushing? Really. You should talk. You are desperate to maintain innuendo. There are three people who insist on this article being as slanted and laced with innuendo as possible, despite critcism by Jimbo Wales and many others. What is their agenda? Why is my version of this article, which has all the harassment scandal but tries to be fair, so troubling to HOTR, Pasboudin and Weideraufbau? Why revert my version of article to one full of errors? Why take out the imdb material for no good reason at all, while leaving in the Post story, which is an obvious hatchet job? Why leave in so much that depends on the Western Standard, when the Standard calls her a fraud artist, something she was never charged with. Are single sources from the media (selected ones, since imdb was to be deleted) considered so solid that they can be strung together to make an article that is an obvious attempt to poison the opinion of anyonew who reads it? These three people have decided to portray Marsden as an unfit journalist by innuendo. I see her as more complex, extremely immature in her relationships, but fairly successful as a young columnist. Wikipedia does not exist to determine if her opinions are wrong. It's here to properly explain things. In Marsden's case, it's being twisted, despite protests from Wikipedia's founder, into a smear mechanism.
Pepple might enjoy seeing how "Cyberboomer" and "Pasboudin" work in tandem to keep this smear page going. Seems they also work on the Judi McLeod entry and received similar complaints from Jimbo. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cyberboomer.
MB
Pretty obvious from the latest reverts that Pasboudin and Cyberboomer are not interested in dicussing the obvious problems in this article, nor can they be shamed by exposing their little tag-team of smear. MB
You are WAY out of line. You refuse to deal with any crticism of this POS article. I am not "stbear" on any board and you have a lot of nerve adding me to your smear campaign. People like you are ruining Wikipedia. You neveraddress the errors and biases in this article. All I am asking for is fairness to someone who is not a Wikipedia administrator and so cannot defend herself. There is no shame in trying to try to face down a lynch mob. You and HOTR are using moderating powers to attack the livelihood and reputation of a journalist and now you are attempting to smear me based on innuendo. You hide in anonymity and are the worst kind of cowards.
"You are a fraud, a liar,"
And *you* just violated Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Homey 03:18, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
It's certainly a fair comment to what Cyberboomer wrote. (written by Mark B.)
It's a violation of the policy and can get you yet another ban if it were brought to the ArbComm's attention.
Mark, I think it's time you come clean on your association with Rachel Marsden. You are hardly a neutral observer coming to her defence. Homey 04:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I have no "association" with Rachel Marsden. As I said earlier, I have read her posts on another discussion board. That's it. I have fixed my statement re: Cyberboomer, but I do note that the slur against me remains. Cyberboomer is also guilty of a personal attack. At this point I don't care if I get banned from this group. Complain about me, but make sure you add Cyberboomer, too.
Essentially of accusing me of being a troll. But you don't get it. You always work from a double standard. You have a very immature and under-developed sense of fairness. And I do believe that people really should use their real names, especially when writing articles that affect the reputation of others.
I know Marsden from a news dicussion forum, where she posts some pretty funny and self-deprecating stuff. Mark Bourrie
This is the news discussion forum Mark Bourrie means. Rachel Marsden posts as "Missy Tee". Damn that's some funny stuff there Mark. Touser 01:03, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Karla Homolka Aspers Thoughtful comments about another woman's appearance Hair grooming tips Female etiquette Christmas morning rituals Health question stalking MP James Moore Racism Aunt Jemima Hurricane Katrina Christmas wishes Her own dancing experience Her own health problems Ezra Levant 1 Ezra Levant 2 Ezra Levant 3 Olympics sexual experiences media lists Vancouver police anti-English discrimination Kathy Shaidle Tori Spelling On the use of polite English On CBC's anti-American bias Showing respect for police and the law Barbara Amiel's physical dignity Rachel Marsden's latest love Request for financial help Movie Review 1 Movie Review 2 Movie Review 3 Movie Review 4 Movie Review 5 A call for justice Donald Trump and Martha Stewart weather alerts Outing Celebrity gossip Compassion for our fine feathered friends [Above unsigned comment from User:Touser; revision in two parts here. I (Samaritan) then edited it only to strip the two line spacing occupied by each link, by which the list came to occupy several screenfuls of scroll space.]
Some of it's funny, some isn't. Get over it. And is Marsden "Missy Tee"? Prove it.
BTW, "Touser" has made three contributions to Wikipedia. Guess what they were. MB