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Removed Jhelum from the districts speaking, "standard Punjabi language", as the main language of Jhelum district is a sub-dialect of Potwari. Although standard Punjabi is spoken in some areas, the most common language is Potwari.
Hello
By including Jehlum District in Standard Punjabi dialect "Majhi" is due the fact as you your self described "in some areas it is spoken.
Jaredfan (
talk)
05:03, 6 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Hi,
Majhi is no way spoken by the majority of Jhelum district. Potwari, dhanni and mirpuri is. Also, Jhelum was never a part of "Majha" region of Punjab. It has always been a part of Potwar. As for the "in some areas it is spoken" comment of yours, well, some regions in Gujrat speak Potwari, so that doesn't mean Gujrat district can be included as a "part of Potwar". And please, do not politicize the issue. Thanks. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
14.200.157.154 (
talk)
09:35, 8 March 2015 (UTC)reply
Refer to Saraiki dialect Talk page, there is WP consensus on it being a dialect. Saraiki dialect is also referred as Multani dialect. Do not engage in edit war on this article because it is just a summary article.
39.32.99.86 (
talk)
16:42, 20 October 2013 (UTC)reply
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Punjabi dialects. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
It is pretty clear that Pahari languages: Dogri (a scheduled language according to Indian Constitution), Kangri, Kahluri & Bhateali are part of Western Pahari languages under Indo-Aryan Family. Punjabi is a language under Northwestern Zone of Indo Aryan Family. Dear, how do you have languages as dialects of a language across branches? Then one may simply say that Punjabi is a dialect of Hindi (which it is not). It is wrong & I strongly oppose it. I would like others to share their opinions over it. If there is no discussion of the topic, I will suggest removal of those languages from here.
Nik9hil (
talk)
07:16, 28 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Well, some mention will need to be made of Dogri because of its close relationship with Punjabi and the fact that it is sometimes counted as a Punjabic variety. I agree with you that there's no point in having a separate section about it. But then, I don't think there's much point in any of the other sections either – they have all been copied from the individual articles about each dialect, typically from earlier and inferior versions. I think we should get rid of it all and replace it with a brief overview, which would then link to each of the individual articles. –
Uanfala (talk)12:57, 28 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the reply. My concern here is with respect to only those 4 languages. If one sees the table down the page which shows a table of Punjabi varieties, it doesn't mentions these 4 languages. It only mentions Doabi, Majhi, Malwai, Puadhi, Dhani, Inku, Jhangvi, Lubanki, Pahari-Pothwari, Shahpuri, Awankari, Chhachi, Ghebi, Kohati, Riasti, & Thali. Yes, not only Dogri but other 3 languages too share some similarities with Punjabi. Given that the table also doesn't mentions these languages, it should be right to remove them from this page too. As for the other ones, I don't know much about them. If some user have something to be said with respect to them too, they also should say.
Nik9hil (
talk)
13:33, 29 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Dialects map
I would like to bring up for discussion the map on the right. I sort of like the map: it's a pretty colour palette, and it has all those nice little touches, like the green spot in the middle of the Pothohari areas representing the Standard Punjabi speakers in the city of Islamabad, or the green streaks throughout the Pakistani province, likely depicting the canal colonies with their speakers of Eastern Punjabi varieties.
On the other hand, the map contains a number of inaccuracies. For example, the entire Saraiki area in the south is partitioned between te Multani, Riasti, Derewal and "Thlochi", but these are only regional names, not actual dialects (see the Wagha and Shackle cited in
Saraiki language#Dialects), whose boundaries look a lot different. Look at
Kohati as well: it's shown to occupy the entire
Kohat District, but that is incorrect: the predominant language there is Pashto, and as detailed in its article, Kohati is confined to the city and to a line of villages running in an east-west direction. See also "Pahari" in the north: it's shown as a narrow band in light blue that runs along the entire northern boundary of the Punjabi areas. That's flagrantly incorrect: it appears to stem from the understanding that "Pahari" is everything that's spoken in the mountains, but the actual Punjabi variety of Pahari (as detailed with extensive sourcing at
Pahari-Pothwari#Pahari) is only spoken in AJK and the mountains in the west of the Kashmir Valley.
In the light of the above, the practice so far has been to not use the map in the articles on Kohati, Pahari and the other dialects that it gets wrong. (Sometimes people start insisting on inserting the map everywhere, so worth keeping an eye on these just in case). However, the big question is if we should use this map anywhere at all. It has so far been used in this article, and I guess it seems useful as a broad overview. But its numerous inaccuracies, coupled with the fact that it doesn't cite any sources, should frankly make it inadmissible anywhere on Wikipedia. –
Uanfala (talk)12:35, 19 April 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Uanfala For what it is worth, "Thlochi" is likely a name used by Awankari Hindko speakers to describe Thali, as the Awankari name for Dhanni/Chakwali is Dhanochi (Hardev Barhi explains the origin of the -ch- affix and its peculiarity to Awankari in his book Lahndi Phonology).
Otherwise though, yes, I agree this map requires improvement, and further I would suggest that the colours need changing as well to use a colour-blind friendly pallette. I will try to do the research necessary to create an updated map, although there are some odds and ends I need to work out before doing this.
عُثمان (
talk)
14:03, 12 January 2023 (UTC)reply
I was wondering whether Punjabic Dialects and Dialects of Punjabi should be segregated under separate headings and whether a clear distinction should be made between them? At the moment, I feel dialects like Saraiki, Pothowari are being equated to Malwai or Doabi? Even though the former are recognised languages, and the latter are considered proper dialects of Punjabi. Pinging @
Uanfala and
Malikhpur:, as I know they've made significant contributions to the page (apologies for the ping).نعم البدل (
talk)
03:28, 11 February 2023 (UTC)reply
The article already distinguishes between Lahnda which covers Saraiki, Hindko and Pothwari from Eastern Punjabi which covers Malwai etc. There is no need to have separate headings. This articles recognises that Pothwari etc are separate languages in the lede when it states Punjabi is a series of dialects and languages forming part of Greater Punjabi.
Malikhpur (
talk)
08:29, 11 February 2023 (UTC)reply
Pothwari
@
EstablishmentOfKnowledge: Your citation does not support your claim. Pothwari speakers could have well chosen Urdu, or Hindko, or Saraiki, or Other, just as they could have selected 'Punjabi' - you have no way knowing for what the majority selected. The survey which was conducted in Azad Kashmir should be and indication that Pothwari speakers don't associate their language with Punjabi, when given the option. We don't even know how many Pothwari speakers there are exactly in Ralwalpindi. You'll need a better citation.
نعم البدل (
talk)
23:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
These are the previous census results for the Pothohar which is where Pothwari is a majority language. The people selecting "other" in these Pothwari speaking districts did not even amount to 1% of their respective district population. The data clearly supports the facts that Pothwari speakers overwhelmingly selected their mother tongue as Punjabi in previous enumerations
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (
talk)
23:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
No it doesn't. All you're doing is presenting the results from the Census and your claims are
WP:OR, you're making claims based on primary data, not making statements based on secondary research. The census (handled by the government) never even recognised Pothwari as a language up until recently, I'm confused as to how you're even deriving these conclusions. Not even mentioning the fact that areas like Jhelum, though influenced by Pothwari, do actually majorly speak Punjabi, not [the] Pothwari dialect.
نعم البدل (
talk)
23:50, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
This is not
WP:OR when the data clearly supports the claim. Pothwari speakers did indeed overwhelmingly select Punjabi instead of "other".
In the results for Rawalpindi District, only 217,092 individuals selected "other". This is a mere 4% of the population of Rawalpindi District, when Pothwari speakers make up several million individuals according to ethnologue and linguists.
Even in Tehsils where only Pothwari is spoken as a major language, like Gujar Khan, only 3,427 from a population of 678,062 selected "other". It's very clear based on the census data of the Pothohar that most Pothwari speakers are selecting their mother tongue as Punjabi.
Pothwari is definitely spoken in Jhelum, that just happens to be where Pothwari transitions into standard Punjabi.
Pothwari wasn't recognised as a language until recently, but that doesn't mean that Pothwari speakers haven't been selecting Punjabi as their mother tongue. It would be a blatant misrepresentation of data to suggest that Pothwari speakers are selecting "other"
1. How do you which areas speak Pothwari, as opposed to Punjabi? 2. What data? Where does it say directly that 'Pothwari' speakers opted for the 'Punjabi' language, and too in relation to the census. Again, you've not given any references for that. That 'small' survey that you object to, is one of the few publicly available census/surveys out there, unless you can provide any other citations.
Like I say, we don't even know what the "Pothwari-major" districts are in Mainland Pakistan. You are just assuming that they all picked Punjabi, when they could have just as well picked Urdu, Saraiki, Hindko, or 'Other'. You have nothing to say otherwise, or are you just assuming that every place in the
Pothohar Plateau speaks Pothowari?
نعم البدل (
talk)
00:44, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Jhelum isn't 'split' between Punjabi and Pothwari, they speak Punjabi which is influenced by Pothwari. I agree the past Jhelum the influence grows towards/dies thither. I always assumed the dialect that was spoken in ISB/RAW was Hindko, rather than Pothwari anyways?
نعم البدل (
talk)
01:05, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Because Pothwari and Punjabi are largely similar, there isn't a distinct border between them. There's more of a gradual change from Pothwari to Standard Punjabi, and the east part of the district is known to speak Pothwari proper.
Hindko isn't really native to Isb/Rwp, Pothwari has always been the native language in these parts. Hindko is mainly spoken to the North West of the Punjab district like in Attock and parts of KPK
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (
talk)
01:10, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
A small survey from Azad Kashmir which barely includes 1000 people cannot be used to speak for Pothwari speakers as a whole, not when they've been estimated to be up to 2.5 million people.. The census actually includes all Pothwari speakers in the Punjab
Pothwari has historically been regarded as a part of Punjabi by speakers and linguists, and some Pothwari speakers even call their language "Punjabi". One such source for this is found of the Pahari-Pothwari page: We know that Pothwari is a majority language in Northern Punjab, ethnologue and the literature regarding Pothwari is very clear on that.
Why would they pick Urdu when up until recently Pothwari was officially a dialect of Punjabi. In the Pothohar and Azad Kashmir many Pothwari speakers do see their language as Punjabi, and some even call it as such. Here's one of the sources for this which is available on the Pahari-Pothwari page:
https://www.sil.org/resources/publications/entry/9130 ". ...It is difficult to know whether Punjabi indicates Punjabi spoken farther south in the plains or the language spoken in Mirpur, since some speakers call their mother tongue Punjabi".
The matter goes back to the references, I'm not saying use the survey as the Bible, but use it as an indication. I never removed the SIL reference, because I never objected to it since yes some Pothwari speakers to deem their vernacular to be 'Punjabi', but that same reference can't be used to state to imply that all or most of Pothwari speakers living in Rawalpindi (the populace which is unknown anyways) would have apparently picked Punjabi, that is big stretch from the statement that was made in the SIL citation, since it never even mentions Rawalpindi, and is meant to be taken as a general note, or "generally-speaking".
نعم البدل (
talk)
01:09, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Not to mention you expressed it as:
> Pothwari speakers overwhelmingly selected 'Punjabi" instead of "other" in all previous census enumeration.
It's the only plausible conclusion that can be reached. If Pothwari speakers were selecting "other" then the "other" category should be much larger seeing as Pothwari is a majority language in Northern Punjab.
Even going back to 1981 census, 85.1% of households had Punjabi as mother tongue. It's a simple conclusion that Pothwari speakers were selecting their language as Punjabi, especially when they see their language as such.
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (
talk)
01:29, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm a native Pothwari speaker from Rawalpindi, but seeing as there aren't any secondary sources regarding this specific issue, there isn't much I can do.
I propose we remove the section on Azad Kashmir and the part about Pothwari speakers selecting their language as Punjabi if you still disagree. We should mention the Pothwari speakers as a whole.
We can replace it with something neutral such as: Pothwari speakers has been represented by Punjabi in previous census enumerations, and a number of Pothwari speakers refer to their mother tongue as Punjabi.
If there aren't any secondary sources then unfortunately, you might have to leave it out – the 2023 Online Census has been concluded anyways, so we might not have to wait that long for more secondary sources to appear for Pothwari. However, I don't see why the AJK survey has to go?
I think this bit suffices:
Some Pothwari speakers in Azad Kashmir and the Pothohar refer to their mother tongue as Punjabi, so those who selected Punjabi may be referring to Pothwari.
And the SIL reference IMO suffices alongside.
But I'm quite opposed to the following statement:
Pothwari speakers overwhelmingly selected 'Punjabi" instead of "other" in all previous census enumeration.
Definitely not assumptions, saying such a thing is just completely ignoring census data results for the Pothohar which actually sampled millions of people, not just 1000 in Azad Kashmir
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (
talk)
14:58, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't dispute that some Pothwari speakers may have picked Punjabi as opposed to "Others". I dispute that fact that an overwhelming number of Pothwari speakers would have picked Punjabi.
Again, as you'll know we've not been spoiled with citations regarding the Pothwari language, and there's really nothing wrong with the survey, and also where does it specifically say 1000 people participated in the survey?
نعم البدل (
talk)
15:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm willing to change the statement to something along the lines of "Pothwari has been represented as a dialect of Punjabi until the 2017 census".
And it's not "some" Pothwari speakers, it is the vast majority. That's why the "other" section only includes a fraction of the actual Pothohar. There is quite simply no other plausible conclusion that can be drawn from the census
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (
talk)
15:10, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
On the page the following locations in Mainland Pakistan are mentioned:
1. Jhelum
2. Gujar Khan
3. Islamabad
4. Murree
5. Abbotabad
Come on, you know well, just as I, that none of those places have a significant number of Pothwari speakers. They are all either Punjabi or Hindko places.
نعم البدل (
talk)
15:47, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
You're just showing how little you understand about Pothwari.
Abbotabad isn't even the Punjab let alone Pothohar. Pothwari is not spoken there
In Gujar Khan and Murree only dialects of Pothwari and Pahari are spoken. Both are among the majority of other Pothwari speaking tehsils which are Punjabi majority in the census
Yes and thank you for proving how absurd that Pahari-Pothwari page is, because THAT is the page that listed those locations not me. Abottabad, is clearly a Hindko speaking area.
Jhelum does not speak Pothwari, they speak Punjabi. As I said, it's Punjabi is influenced by Pothwari, but that doesn't mean they speak Pothwari, or that they have a significant number of Pothwari speakers.
نعم البدل (
talk)
15:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Jhelum does speak Pothwari, especially in the Easternmost tehsils only Pothwari is spoken. Literature on Pothwari is clear on this.
And the Pahari-Pothwari page is correct in saying Pothwari is spoken in Jhelum, Murree, Islamabad and Gujar Khan. You're the one who's claiming it isn't when we know Pothwari has a strong presence in these regions
Because not everyone is a linguist, or takes an interest in languages, and for a dialect like Pothwari, it's not unfathomable for Pothwari speakers to associate their dialect with Urdu or Saraiki or Hindko etc.
It was taken for granted that it was a part of Punjabi. Even today Pothwari speakers from the Pothohar and Azad Kashmir are divided as to whether or not it's part of Punjabi. It's mostly a political issue, that's another reason why a survey from Azad Kashmir shouldn't be used to represent Pothwari speakers as a majority
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (
talk)
01:25, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Well, considering the Government of AJK doesn't release census data for languages, it's difficult to get any sort of language data for Pothwari speakers. You still need to provide a citation to stitch the census with your claim.
نعم البدل (
talk)
15:08, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The census data for the the districts of the Pothohar should be more than sufficient. It clearly shows that Pothwari speakers are selecting "Punjabi" in the districts and tehsils which are known to be Pothwari majority
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (
talk)
15:11, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
What "Pothohar districts"? The Pothohar region includes places where Hindko, Punjabi and even Saraiki are spoken as a majority. Pothwari speakers were never even that significant in this region.
نعم البدل (
talk)
15:19, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
As per what exactly? The
Pothohar region covers as West as Mianwali – which is majorly Saraiki, just North of Islamabad, which is all Hindko, and South, which is all Punjabi.
Also, if you looked at the neighbouring districts, you're statement that Pothwari speakers all pick 'Punjabi' couldn't be more untrue.
Kallar Sayaddan = 62% Others, Sohowa = 46% Others, which all border AJK.
What you call an "anomaly", are 240,000 people picking 'Others' over 'Punjabi (150,000) in those 2 Tehsils alone. That should be enough to rethink the use of the word "Overwhelming" in this context.
Take a look at the districts of the Pothohar as a whole
All of these districts are are Punjabi majority. In Rawalpindi District alone, Tehsils Gujar Khan, Kahuta, Kotli Sattian, Muree, Rawalpindi, Taxila, all are Punjabi Majority. Sohawa and Kallar Sayaddan are clear anomalies when you look at even the district as a whole
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (
talk)
15:49, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Look, at this point you're just picking and choosing information, from the same source. You're trying to insinuate things from a Primary source - the 2017 Census which doesn't even mention Pothwari, and you don't have any secondary sources to back up you're claims. I'm not going to go any further, please either provide reliable citations or I'm putting this discussion up on the noticeboard. Thanks.
نعم البدل (
talk)
16:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
You can put it up on the noticeboard.
It is absurd to disregard census data just because it doesn't agree with your views. You've shown in our discussion that you don't know enough about the subject, you aren't even familiar with the regions in which Pothwari is spoken.
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (
talk)
16:07, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
As you wish then.
I'm not the one disagreeing with the Census results by calling some set of results an "anomaly" and the other bit 'facts' through assumptions.
And as a person who's originally from these areas, I think I do have some knowledge of the dialect that is spoken in these regions.
نعم البدل (
talk)
16:10, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
An anomaly is data which doesn't fit with the data as a whole, so yes it was an anomaly and the claim is still correct
You may be from these areas just as I am, but you claimed that Pothwari isn't spoken in regions where it's a majority language. That doesn't inspire confidence in me I'm afraid
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (
talk)
16:13, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I owe an apology, I believe Rawalpindi is also a Pothwari speaking region, I'll add references to the claim, but I will remove 'overwhelming' for another appropriate synonym. I've also striked down the discussion at the noticeboard.
نعم البدل (
talk)
16:38, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
That's okay my friend. Rawalpindi is in the heart of the Pothohar, and another local name for Pothwari in the region is Pindiwal Punjabi. Removing the word "overwhelming" would be sufficient though.