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Hi, I have drawn up a
user draft which builds on the current version and includes more reliable sources where possible, as well as addressing some issues. I’ve set out a full explanation of what I’ve done on the
talk page of that draft. If anyone has time to review and get back to me that would be great. I’m an employee at the Public Investment Fund as I’ve disclosed on my user page. Thanks.
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
13:43, 14 September 2018 (UTC)reply
I’ve updated this
user draft, with an updated explanation on the
talk page of how and why it differs from the main article. Suggested new sentences/paragraphs are in italics and anything I’m proposing to be removed is in strikethrough. If anyone has time to review these proposed changes I’d be very grateful. Thank you.
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
11:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)reply
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The introduction is very out-of-date and – particularly the second paragraph – written from the perspective of c. 2018. I’m therefore requesting the following updates to the introduction based on much more recent reliable source material.
1. Change 2nd sentence, 1st paragraph from:
It is among the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world with total estimated assets of $430 billion.
to:
It is among the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world, managing a portfolio worth $400 billion.[1]
Rationale: $400 billion is the most recent figure and refers to the Fund’s portfolio as per the Reuters article cited.
2. Replace the whole second paragraph with:
Established in 1971, PIF’s role has expanded to invest in a range of non-oil sectors and companies within and outside Saudi Arabia, with the aim of encouraging to increase domestic private sector development and economic diversification in support of the
Saudi Vision 2030 program.[2][3]
Rationale: The current second paragraph is written from the perspective of several years ago, e.g. “aims at transferring the PIF from a mere local authority to the largest sovereign fund in the world”, “working on managing assets worth $400 billion by 2020”. Similarly, the last line regarding “200 investments, 20 of which are listed on Tadawul” is very much out of date.
3. Add a new 3rd paragraph:
Initiatives financed by PIF within Saudi Arabia include projects to develop tourist destinations on the
Red Sea coast; the development of the Kingdom’s entertainment sector including the megaproject
Qiddiya; and
NEOM, a $500 billion economic zone focused on high-tech industries.[3]
Rationale: These are three of the most prominent projects within KSA being financed by PIF, and the most obvious examples of its diversification program to include in the introduction.
@
Quetstar: The above requests are neutral, the sources for them are reliable and their rationales are clear. You have not stated your reasons for declining them and seem instead to have dismissed them wholesale based on a personal view. Please give your reasons for declining these requests on their merits. Thank you.
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
22:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)reply
I've suggested edits to the proposed second paragraph and requested a
third opinion. I don't think there's any puff in what I've proposed here and furthermore this is actually in contrast to the existing second paragraph, which includes the phrase: "aims at transferring the PIF from a mere local authority to the largest sovereign fund in the world"
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
11:53, 7 September 2021 (UTC)reply
The
on July 18 by
Snooganssnoogans is reliably sourced but shouldn't be in the lead. The fund's transparency is not a prominent line of commentary.
As per
MOS:LEAD, lead sections should summarize the article's most important contents. A sentence, somewhere in the body of the article, would stand. Two sentences in the introduction, based on an article from 2016, does not.
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
23:59, 18 August 2021 (UTC)reply
The fund is known for being one of the least transparent ones in the world, so it is relevant no matter the case and therefore should be in the lead.
Quetstar (
talk)
02:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Third Opinion request. This should not be in the lead unless the lead is expanded and it is also addressed somewhere else in the article. Right now it looks like undue weight and non-NPOV. This isn't a widely covered statement, that I can see, either.
Pyrrho the Skeptic (
talk)
15:29, 7 September 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Pyrrho the Skeptic: Thanks for taking a look, agree also re weight and NPOV. I have a COI so prefer not to edit the article directly – would you be willing to remove the two sentences for now given current length of the lead?
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
19:54, 7 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Wait a sec; presently the fact that this is "among the least transparent sovereign wealth funds in the world" (sourced to Wall Street Journal, no less) is totally removed from the article.
I think that the sentence "It has been characterized as among the least transparent sovereign wealth funds in the world. In 2016, the Wall Street Journal noted that none of the fund's investments were named" (sourced to WSJ) defintely belongs in the article, perhaps under its own paragraph. So far two editors have indicated it belong in the lead, while two do not want it in the lead; no-one (AFAIK) has argued for removing it completely from the article, still, that is the result?
User:Snooganssnoogans,
User:Riyadhcafe87,
User:Pyrrho the Skeptic,
User:Quetstar: what do you think?
Huldra (
talk)
20:33, 7 September 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm the editor that removed it, after I provided a third opinion. Because the edit was added to the lead, while not appearing in the rest of the article, it was ignoring clear guidelines from
MOS:Lead: "significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article". It was not added to the body, nor was it discussed on the Talk Page, which is bare minimum etiquette for a controversial statement being added to the lead. No one seems to object to it being added somewhere in the article, so I suggest someone do that before adding it to the lead (though I still don't think it belongs in the lead).
Pyrrho the Skeptic (
talk)
20:45, 7 September 2021 (UTC)reply
The text in question should obviously both be in the lead and the body of the article. The text is basic information about the organization. I strongly disagree that we should take our marching orders from employees of an organization who are trying to hide well-sourced content about the organization.
Snooganssnoogans (
talk)
21:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC)reply
There is a blatant neutrality violation in removing this extremely well-sourced content while the lead and the main body uses poorly sourced content to make definitive statements about the organization doing X, Y and X, and serving goals A, B and C when the RS content that was removed clearly indicates that the organization is not at all transparent about its investments and that we shouldn't mindlessly repeat the organization's own claims.
Snooganssnoogans (
talk)
22:03, 7 September 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Snooganssnoogans: Firstly, as
Pyrrho the Skeptic says above, no one objects to it being added somewhere in the article. It is well sourced. It is not however, and as Pyrrho also agrees, a major line of commentary about the fund. You mention neutrality – as per
WP:WEIGHT, "neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources."
The prominence of this viewpoint in reliable sources is very low. According to NPOV it should therefore be in the article only, not in the lead.
Secondly, you mention poor sources. This is exactly one of the issues I’ve been trying to address, initially
in my user space and then with the edit request above, which uses two Reuters articles and one from AlArabiya. That was an effort to update what was there (which was several years out of date) with up-to-date, lead-appropriate information based on reliable sources.
Thirdly, to the extent that it's guiding your editing decisions, the argument in your last edit summary – that we should essentially disregard information in numerous reliable sources based on what's in one reliable source – I think at least strays into
WP:OR territory, i.e. "analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." Sure you're not making that claim in the article, but it does seem to be guiding your editing.
No one's issuing "marching orders". I'd like a fair discussion and to stick to policy and what's in reliable sources as best we can. Keen to hear from you and any others on these points.
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
23:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC)reply
I am not familiar with conventions in the English language Wikipedia, so please excuse my comment. I would strongly argue that the July 18 edit should not be in the introduction. You came up with a 5 year old article in 2021. I haven't read any such characterization of the PIF in a very long time. You must have dug deep to come up with this characterization in 2021. It is not neutral but seems politically motivated. Actually, PIF is making a lot of fuzz about their investments, they are holding their annual investment conference etc. In the spirit of neutrality, I would actually remove it not only from the introduction but from the main article, too. The article's credibility would greatly benefit.
Also, reference 3 needs a fix. I wanted to check relevance and context of the Hertog quote but the article is paywalled and you cannot even see title and date of publication in the reference text.--
Alte Kanzlei (
talk)
07:30, 26 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Alte Kanzlei is right, it shouldn't be in the article at all. It wasn't a widespread view 5 years ago let alone now.
This is simply not a characterization of the Fund worth mentioning now. Things have moved on, and as Alte Kanzlei says you've obviously dug it up.
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
02:16, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Still haven't seen why this paragraph would be relevant or would summarize a main point. It is sourced, yes, but that is not the purpose of the lead.--
Alte Kanzlei (
talk)
13:28, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
I don't think so. It is a singular five-year old observation. I couldn't find any confirmation that this was particularly characteristic of the fund. I do guess the world of finance isn't very transparent but this does not seem to be a relevant characterization of the fund in 2021. --
Alte Kanzlei (
talk)
13:45, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
What a weird comment. I literally cleaned up this
WP:COI-PR propaganda project by removing rubbish sources and adding actual reliable sources – and you're whining about this? When you're whining about the sources, you're referring to the peer-reviewed studies that I added to the article? What Wikipedia's RS guidelines describes as "usually the most reliable sources." It's completely immaterial whether you can personally access these sources or not (
WP:PAYWALL).
Snooganssnoogans (
talk)
12:54, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Lead
Snooganssnoogans let's get back to whether or not this description of PIF as non-transparent belongs in the lead.
MOS:LEAD and
WP:WEIGHT are there for a reason. It was never a prevalent characterization, and not only the sources I've linked above but actually a fair portion of the article shows how misleading it is to have it there. If it was a 2 or 3 on the
SWFI Linaburg-Maduell Transparency Index then sources would reflect that, but it isn't and they don't. To insist on this based on so little, from so long ago and when so much since tells such a different story makes no sense.
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
14:11, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is an archived record of a
request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Due to the requesting editor's battleground mentality, as well as several convincing opinions on the lead, I have decided to speedily close this RfC. The consensus is to keep the transparency sentence in the lead, but in a shortened form.
Quetstar (
talk)
14:39, 2 October 2021 (UTC) (
non-admin closure)reply
Remove from lead or expand lead. I was involved in the earlier discussion, responding to the Third Opinion request. As it is now, one article's criticism is taking up about 40% of the lead. If there are widely-covered criticisms, they can be included in the body, either a criticism section or throughout, and then those criticisms could be added to the lead in more general terms. But as it is now, it's WP:UNDUE in the lead, in my opinion. NOTE: Since writing this, another involved editor has now expanded the lead to include more criticisms, but these additions are copy/pasted and are now the majority of the lead, which I still believe is WP:UNDUE and non-neutral.
Pyrrho the Skeptic (
talk) 17:41, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
Pyrrho the Skeptic (
talk)
17:41, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
This comment incorrectly claims that this content is a "criticism". It's not. It's basic and uncontroversial information about the organization. If numerous scholarly sources say that this is a uniquely non-transparent sovereign wealth fund and that it barely qualifies as a "sovereign wealth fund", then the content clearly meets
WP:DUE and it's not "criticisms".
Snooganssnoogans (
talk)
17:56, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support shortening per above. It should be at most one sentence if it is not extensively covered in the body. Note as well that the lead text about transparency is a copy of the body text about transparency. Nonetheless the PIF has historically been much less reliably audited: as cited by an expert:
"Some holdings lacked Western governance standards, says a person briefed on a PIF audit by Ernst & Young. “Although they do have audited financial statements, they’re not necessarily the right figures,” this person says."
perFT.
"A former senior PIF employee says there was an “unspoken understanding” that Mr Son would be a “fundraiser” for PIF’s mega-projects, particularly Neom, Prince Mohammed’s flagship development."
from another FT article
Historical criticism of corruption within Saudi ministries, "sovereign wealth vs. sovereign's wealth".
2009 journal article
Which includes: “While critics decry the lack of transparency of SWFs, the Saudi launch of a new SWF could represent a move toward greater transparency”
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
13:56, 2 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Hiring of US PR firms on behalf of the Saudi Government in 2019 as well as corrupt promotions/contracts to pro-Saudi individuals/companies
per journal article.
Use of the PIF for political purposes both within SA (to consolidate crown prince's power base) and outside (to gain support), indicating the fund is not result-oriented and thus, in my opinion, of an importantly distinct character to average
SWFs2019 journal.
Again this is another point. 13:56, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
Non-membership of the
IFSWF and non-signing of the
Santiago Principles mean there are no guidelines which the PIF must be accountable to.
Keep in lead. 'Riyadhcafe87' is an employee of the PIF. The editor is falsely claiming that only one source in the article has remarked on the company's lack of transparency. The body very clearly includes other sources, including peer-reviewed studies and expert assessments, that point to the PIF's lack of transparency, as well as its dubious status as a "sovereign wealth fund". The body, for example, quotes a recognized expert (cited by the Financial Times in 2018) who says that the PIF "is seen as opaque, a black box. Few know what’s going on there, including sometimes other government ministries." I find it disturbing that a PR employee of the company is permitted to start a RfC and to make false claims in the RfC itself.
Snooganssnoogans (
talk)
17:56, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Please remember that the employee has stated their COI numerous times. The point of an RfC is to get independent opinions, which is the correct thing to do, to prevent edit warring and establish consensus.
Pyrrho the Skeptic (
talk)
18:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Points raised by Riyadhcafe87 can still be valuable contributions to the article even if there is a COI. The editor has made an effort to establish community consensus, provided ample sources in good faith, and most importantly while the text of the RfC is not particularly neutral if one takes up the RfC from the perspective of
MOS:LEAD it should be considered worthwhile discussing. Nonetheless, I do believe that mentions of lack of transparency are important, per my comment above. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Talk10:06, 2 October 2021 (UTC)reply
I also have concerns that the push to whitewash the page (which includes ceaseless advocacy by the company's employees, as well as edit-warring from newly created editors) may be motivated by a desire to obscure the organization's structure due to the PIF's current negotiations to purchase a Premier League football club.
Snooganssnoogans (
talk)
18:09, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
You're right, they should disclose their COI on the RfC, but I don't believe it's required, and should make no real difference to any editors jumping in to comment. It either belongs in the lead or it doesn't. I also saw the newly-created account in the edit history, and that should be brought up in a sock investigation, and not influence this particular point.
Pyrrho the Skeptic (
talk)
18:14, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
I don't think that the lead is unduly weighted, so i think that it should stay as is. (FYI, I was the one who readded the transparency sentence back into the lead, before Snoogan expanded it.)
Quetstar (
talk)
22:50, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep besides its wealth, it is really its non-transparency which is most notable about this fund, so yeah: this belongs in the lead. (Want ot away from the lead: increase the transparency of the Fund is how to do that)
Huldra (
talk)
23:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Sorry but can I just say this again (
WP:DUE): "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." Let's see the sufficient prominence of this viewpoint for it to be in the lead.
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
00:11, 2 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Riyadhcafe87 it seems we both were writing edits at the same time and so my revision of my text above does not make sense anymore. I have pasted it below:
Yes (to your question about there being enough sources). Perhaps not the exact wording, but most definitely the characterization of the PIF as obscure (see my comment above). The line calling it a "quasi-sovereign wealth fund" is also extensively cited in the lead. HOWEVER note that
WP:DUE is best described as "Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects.". The view that the PIF is obscure is overwhelmingly documented, per my sources above as well as those already cited in the article. Thus, statements supporting this view must be given the due weight that inclusion in the lead entails. Per
WP:LEAD: "The lead is the first thing most people will read upon arriving at an article, and may be the only portion of the article that they read. It gives the basics in a nutshell and cultivates interest in reading on". Readers should receive information about the PIF's nontransparency and corruption as part of their basic understanding of the fund — with additional detailing on the topic in the body.
In fact, I think that you might be falling into a
false dilemma. The fact that some acquisitions made by the fund (of very notable companies, such as Tesla) are known publicly does not mean that the company is very transparent. Claiming that because it is known that the PIF invested in Tesla we know all about the investments made by the fund and thus the claims made of non-transparency are false is a false dilemma. Both statements can be true, seeing as we do not really know the number of investments it has made through shell companies (which Saudi investors with connections to the PIF and the monarchy have made
such as in this case) or in nations where it is not necessary to disclose investments (note, for example, that Tesla must disclose investments into the company per NASDAQ/USA/SEC rules to its shareholders). In addition, the fact that sources such as FT
could only quote a range of 3-5% rather than an exact amount puts in doubt exactly how transparent that deal was.
Reports on the PIF's deals in the US cite security filings (meaning legally obliged disclosures) when writing about deals made by the PIF. One could safely assume that in countries such as Russia, China, or
LEDCs these disclosures would not be as detailed or made at all. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Talk13:19, 2 October 2021 (UTC)reply
I've made straightforward arguments and asked straightforward questions. I'll let others decide if I've been more bludgeoning here than anyone else. We can be straight and
civil and I have been civil.
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
14:01, 2 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Riyadhcafe87, please if you are so inclined to continue the discussion and feel it is truly truly necessary to improve the article create a new section outlining, once again, your responses explicitly. Continuing this section is redundant, as the RfC is closed. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Talk18:10, 2 October 2021 (UTC)reply
No I'm not. I know you think that because the RfC is closed I'm now refusing to drop the stick but we simply don't have enough sources saying it do we? You link to an FT article in your first point above, and then to the same one in your second point, saying it's another article. You then make a number of unrelated points.
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
07:17, 3 October 2021 (UTC)reply
I closed it because you were disruptive by repeatedly asking for proof – Yes which I don't think I got
Riyadhcafe87 The lead will stay as is and that's final whether you like it or not.
Quetstar (
talk)
13:59, 3 October 2021 (UTC)reply
"It has been characterized as among the least transparent sovereign wealth funds in the world. In 2016, the Wall Street Journal noted that none of the fund's investments were named."
Riyadhcafe87 (
talk)
14:13, 3 October 2021 (UTC)reply
But the fund does not release quarterly reports, which makes it non-transparent as we can't know the entirety of the fund's investments.
Quetstar (
talk)
14:32, 3 October 2021 (UTC)reply