The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic.
This article is written in
British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other
varieties of English. According to the
relevant style guide, this should not be changed without
broad consensus.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject British Royalty (a child project of the
Royalty and Nobility Work Group), an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
British Royalty on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you should visit the
project page, where you can
join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion.British RoyaltyWikipedia:WikiProject British RoyaltyTemplate:WikiProject British RoyaltyBritish royalty articles
This article was
copy edited by
Twofingered Typist, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 22 August 2018.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
London on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LondonWikipedia:WikiProject LondonTemplate:WikiProject LondonLondon-related articles
This article has been viewed enough times in a single year to make it into the
Top 50 Report annual list. This happened in
2018, when it received 12,241,593 views.
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the
Top 25 Report9 times. The weeks in which this happened:
This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.
Royal Monogram
There has been no official word on his monogram being updated with the coronet of the Sovereign. When William's was changed to the Heir Apparent, we were told that it couldnt be changed because there wasnt anything official. Why do we get to change Harry's then? It should be reverted back to the official one used.
170.85.9.75 (
talk)
21:22, 7 January 2024 (UTC)reply
We changed William's to feature the coronet of a child of the sovereign as well (before the whole file was deleted for some unknown reason). The heir and his wife do not always use the coronet set aside specifically for the prince/ss of Wales (Diana did not, neither during her marriage nor after it was over, but Camilla did). The inconsistency in that specific coronet's usage is why we need a source for it. Keivan.fTalk17:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Coronation medal
With regard to
[1], I fear GBNews may have it wrong. Harry may not have been wearing the coronation medal because he was not given it. It is given to serving personnel or people who made an "active contribution". Page 2 of
the eligibility criteria says "attendance at an event, i.e. as a guest, does not in itself qualify for the medal". GBNews says he was given it "alongside other Armed Forces and frontline emergency workers". Is he a serving member of the armed forces?
DrKay (
talk)
08:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Proper title correction needed.
According to Harry's bio page on the royal website, his comprehensive list of titles no longer includes Prince. Nowhere on the site do they refer to him as Prince, except when referring to things he did in the past while he did have the title. Further research indicates that the Queen, in making him Duke of Sussex on his wedding day did not simply add the Duke title to his heraldry, but rather swapped out (reclaimed) the title of Prince for the title of Duke. The wording of the official change of title is vague, but it is an official *change* of title, not an announcement of title *bestowal*. Given that the subsequent changes regarding this on the royal website are uniformly in line with this, there can be no doubt that he is no longer Prince Harry,and has not been since his wedding.
The fact that the media calls him Prince, the common public calls him Prince, and he and his publicists call him Prince is really irrelevant if the Palace says he does not possess that title.
I propose it be corrected in the article with the relevant sources.
Announcement of title change:
https://www.royal.uk/prince-harry-and-ms-meghan-markle-announcement-titles
Bio page listing all his official titles:
https://www.royal.uk/the-duke-of-sussex
Special note should be taken to distinguish "prince", the biological relationship to the monarch, with "Prince", the royal title. The title is capitalized, the biological state is not. In Britain, being born a prince qualifies you for the title Prince, but does not guarantee it. Royal titles, including Prince, are the personal property of the monarch, and can be given and taken at will.
199.176.124.25 (
talk)
22:15, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
In 60+ years of studying royalty, I have never seen anything like "to distinguish "prince", the biological relationship to the monarch, with "Prince", the royal title". Looks like free fantasy to me. Source, if any? --
SergeWoodzing (
talk)
13:39, 28 February 2024 (UTC)reply
I am just trying to sort this out from the
royal.uk site on 19 May 2018:
"The Queen has today been pleased to confer a Dukedom on Prince Henry of Wales. His titles will be Duke of Sussex, Earl of Dumbarton and Baron Kilkeel.
Prince Harry thus becomes His Royal Highness The Duke of Sussex, and Ms. Meghan Markle on marriage will become Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Sussex."
That seems clear that he is no longer Price Henry of Wales.
"The Duke of Sussex is fifth in line to the throne and the younger son of The King and Diana, Princess of Wales"... "As announced in January 2020, The Duke and Duchess have stepped back as senior members of The Royal Family."
So, he has not been Price Henry since 19 May 2018 and is now Duke of Sussex.
I was trying to find something on the royal family site that showed that Harry lost his title of Duke of Sussex, and I don't see it.
To be honest, it's not really that great to take them from the royal family website either. Both constitute primary sources, whereas what we should be using is reliable secondary sources. —
Amakuru (
talk)
19:17, 28 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Carole, it is not his website. It is the official website of the British Monarchy. One of the reasons the British are so upset with Harry right now is that on *his* website he still refers to himself as Prince Harry.
199.176.124.25 (
talk)
01:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
At least in Britain, a prince (lower case) is the direct descendant of the monarch. It is a reference to lineage. A Prince (capitalized) is one who holds the royal title. Harry was born a prince, was given the title of Prince, and who is apparently now only a prince again. The incorrect use of capitals and lowercase to distinguish which meaning of the word is intended is a large part of the confusion regarding this issue. Most of the world thinks the biological relationship and title are one and the same as a result.
199.176.124.25 (
talk)
01:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
GoodDay Did you look at the post where I asked after a summary of name/title uses: "Would you please help us sort out the correct article title for Harry?"
Procedurally, an editor who wants a page moved can just unilaterally start the requested move, and the RM is how the consensus is decided. You are never required to already have a consensus before starting the RM. Of course, it's also always fine and good to talk informally first, if people think it's more productive, or if people aren't sure whether they really want to start an RM at all.
Adumbrativus (
talk)
02:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Adumbrativus That's good to know. I have only requested moves that didn't require discussion - or as the result of discussion and consensus - but wasn't able to do the move myself. I just perused the
WP:RM information. Thanks!–
CaroleHenson (
talk)
08:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Questioning royalty and nobility guideline
This practice is part of the problem. In Britain, one can be a prince, but not a Prince. The biological relationship is not the same thing as the title. Harry is a prince, but according to the British monarchy he is no longer a Prince. This is the reason I started this discussion...because referring to him as Prince Harry is to impart a title to him which he no longer has. It is inaccurate. As far as Ducal titles go, your practice is also flawed because not all dukedoms are royal, not all of them are held by Princes or princes. Traditionally, but only traditionally, royal dukedoms have been held by Princes. There have been exceptions even to that though, which is why your practice is problematic.
Maybe we are making this more complicated than it needs to be. The *why, how, and when* it happened can be discussed over time, as can the nuances of British titling, but the basic fact is that according to the official website of the British Empire, Harry does not possess the title of Prince anymore. It is not present in the official list of his titles, and they no longer refer to him as Prince when they use his formal address, and they have taken great pains to remove such reference to the title Prince in the present tense from every last current reference to Harry throughout their website. Therefore, this page should be changed to reflect that, and to conform to his official formal address and titling as it is used by the Palace.
199.176.124.25 (
talk)
00:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
In Britain, one can be a prince, but not a Prince. This is
WP:OR and is categorically false.
Here are Charles and Andrew being referred to as "His Royal Highness The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales" and "His Royal Highness The Prince Andrew, Duke of York", respectively, in The London Gazette. The statement was released by St James' Palace. Keivan.fTalk00:48, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
When it is capitalized it is a reference to the title. When it is lowercase it is reference to the biological relationship. Prince is a royal title, prince is the son or grandson of the monarch. In Britain only a prince can be given the title Prince. The biological relationship and the title are two very different things.
199.176.124.25 (
talk)
00:52, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The IP appears to be under the presumption that he was stripped of his princely rank once he married. This never happened; a prince does not cease to be a prince when he's granted a
peerage. Also, after leaving the UK he was simply stripped of his HRH, like his uncle
Prince Andrew, Duke of York, not his peerage or princely rank. Keivan.fTalk22:41, 28 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi Kevin. No, I am not under that impression. I am under the impression that it *appears* the Queen reclaimed the title of Prince at the same time she bestowed the title of Duke. It appears that way for a number of reasons. If he had still been a Prince when he married, Meghan would have been eligible to become a Princess, and the bestowal would have been a formality as it was for Catherine. Additionally, and at the same time, the royal website began making changes to how they reference Harry as well as to his list of titles. But most notably is the actual wording of the announcement of title change. It says, "Prince Harry thus becomes His Royal Highness The Duke of Sussex...", it does not say "Prince Harry thus becomes His Royal Highness Prince Harry, The Duke of Sussex...", which would have been the proper way to phrase it if he had retained the title.
But as I said, this is how it *appears* to have happened. The only thing that is certain is that according to the official website of the British Empire, Harry does not currently possess the title of Prince.
As a matter of clarity, could you please capitalize the word "prince" when referring to the title and keep the word in lower case when referring to the biological status? Thanks!
199.176.124.25 (
talk)
00:48, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
There is no indication that he ceased to be "Prince Harry" once he was created Duke of Sussex, just as there is no indication that Andrew or Edward ceased to be "Prince Andrew" and "Prince Edward" when they were granted peerages. I just gave an example from the UK government gazette mentioning both Andrew and Charles when they were appointed councellors of state. Meanwhile, you drawing conclusions from the website and claiming that he's no longer "Prince Harry" is
WP:SYNTHESIS, unless you can give a reliable source which explicitly states this. Keivan.fTalk01:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Keivan, you are still equating prince with Prince, and misusing the word "peerages". Your referencing Andrew and Edward and Charles is irrelevant without including the official notice of title change to compare the wording.
And once again, because you keep missing this: the indication that Harry is no longer a Prince is exactly as I have stated: The **British Empire** says he does not have the title. They do not include it in the official list of his titles and they do not include the title in his formal address. Given that it would be his highest ranking title, it would be listed and used in his formal address if he held it.
I am not sure how much clearer it can be, short of a hand-written letter from the King. Whatever the circumstances, timing, and process has been, Harry does not hold the title of Prince. It is not speculation on my part, it is the stated official record of the bloody British Empire. He is not "Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex", he is just "Harry, Duke of Sussex". His Wikipedia page should reflect that.
199.176.124.25 (
talk)
01:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The **British Empire** says he does not have the title. The
British Empire does not exist anymore. You're referring to the
British Monarchy. And the monarchy has said no such thing; here's the website
referring to him as Prince Harry and
here's The London Gazette referring to him as Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex: "On 6 May 2019, Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex and Meghan, Duchess of Sussex’s first child was delivered. Born “at 05.26” in the morning, Archie Mountbatten-Windsor was the Queen’s eight great-grandchild." Keivan.fTalk02:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
There are precedents for the guideline as stated by GoodDay above and on that post.
If you question that response, the guideline page would be the page to question the response that "Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex" is not correct.–
CaroleHenson (
talk)
03:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
This entire thread should be ignored. The IP is wrong, and we are under no obligation to respond to its absurd contentions or attempt to educate those that do not wish to learn.
Celia Homeford (
talk)
09:48, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply