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Archive 1 |
The below was removed by User:Daniel Quinlan with the comment "Bush choking on a pretzel is not encyclopediac". I was not the one who first put reference to the incident here, but I'm not sure I agree that it's inclusion is inappropriate. Googling for "Bush Pretzel" gets over 17,000 hits; the event certainly became a known pop-culture reference. As I've often had to decypher old pop-culture references from historic materials of eras I'm too young to remember, I personally would find explantions of such potentially usefull in a project as wide and deep as Wikipedia aspires to be. I'll let others decide if this merits inclusion in the article; in the meantime, I moved the former text here to talk. -- Infrogmation 01:01, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
On 13 January 2002, US President George W. Bush choked on a pretzel and fainted, causing worry. He recovered almost immediately with only a minor bruise from falling off a couch. The event was much commented on by satirists and late night talk show hosts.
External Links
2bad that sob didnt die on that pretzel. that would be hella funny. 24.144.137.244 17:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
>>When did Dick Cheney open a pretzel company?
regardless of whether or not its an interesting piece of trivia, it really is (especially on this page) trivia, which is discouraged on wikipedia. i'm removing it for now unless somebody has any huge objection. Glassbreaker5791 ( talk) 15:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The image shown here has been listed on Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion with the claim it was obsoleted by the image now on the page yet the image now on the page does not really show you what a pretsel is just how they are sold. Plugwash 03:05, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, this article is missing a mentioning of pretzel variations, like "Yoghurt pretzels" and the like... -- Mnolf 13:28, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Pretzels are traditionally about the size of a standard cookie. ... What the heck is a "standard" cookie? I'm also surprised that there's so little to be said about something as common and everday as a pretzel. -- WikidSmaht 23:47, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
Most people believe the pretzel was actually invented by the Native Americans... ...The truth behind this can't be proven... ... I've never heard this one - I'd have thought the Jewish/German provenance to be much more certain, especially given the similarities between pretzels and bagels. If speculation is the game then why not assume that the refrigerator was also developed by Native Americans, as a means for keeping their pretzels fresh?
Taken from the book 'History of Science and Technology' (au: Bryan Bunch with Alexander Hellemans) has it that- "An italian monk invents prezels as a reward to children who learn their prayers. He calls the strips of baked dough, folded to resemble arms crossing the breast, prestiola ("little reward").
OK, just took a look at the article after a long absense. I previously wrote regarding the Hellemans quotation: "However no source is cited to back up this detail." Since that time someone has marked that statement itself with a "Citation Needed" tag. Um.... I'm really not sure how to provide a citation for the fact that Smith & Hellemans don't provide a citation. As you can see above I did look into this (I looked at least briefly at both Fruit and A History of Food and found nothing about the invention of the pretzel, certainly nothing so specific)... but what should I do, footnote Smith & Hellemans as my source? Or is the real problem that this is original research? If so, how can I more responsibly indicate that this source may be questionable? Pending further discussion I will remove the tag, but feel free to replace it with further discussion here. -- Iustinus ( talk) 03:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Additionally, the bit about "tying the knot" being a reference to pretzels is badly in need of a citation - I've not been able to turn up any reference to this, and at best the claim that this is where the phrase "got its start" is badly incorrect.
Gordon Schumacher ( talk) 03:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
The average amount of pretzel per american is mentioned two times, one being 1.75 pounds and the other being 2 pounds, which is it?
Hi. Please refrain from spamming the Philadelphia portal template on articles that are only tangentially related to the city. While it's acceptable to use on articles relating directly to the city, putting it on articles like Pretzel, Hoagie, and Stromboli is taking things too far. Thanks. - EurekaLott 04:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I added Image:Hortus Deliciarum 1190.jpg, which I imported from the Spanish wikipedia. There it is claimed that this is the earliest known depiction of the pretzel. However, several websites claim that the Vatican Library has a 5th century manuscript of Virgil with a pretzel illustration, Codex no. 3867. Of course even in this day and age, most of the Vatican Library is NOT available online. Anyone have any idea how to track down this reference? -- Iustinus 05:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
AHA! Codex 3867 is the manuscript known as Vergilius Romanus. But googling around for illustrations from that codex, I have yet to find the pretzel. Anyone have more luck? -- Iustinus 06:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
"Soft pretzels are good and traditional." This is not very becoming of an encyclopedia.
We actually call them "Brezel", Brezeln for plural. There is also a mistake that says that germans call the stretched ones "Salzstange". This is not true, they are called "Laugenstange", Salzstangen are more like a kind of crisp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.143.73.137 ( talk) 19:11, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
"Telephone books in the U.S. and other historical records from the early 1940's show that the Pretzel was there often referred to as the "Pretzel"" - Really? Sixty years ago we called pretzels pretzels. How is this worthy of mentioning? Adtroy 17:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
This is the word which can be found in the german wikipedia
This article suffers both from frequent vandalism by anons, and registered editors missing out on reverting it. I suggest a request for permanent semi-protection at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. -- Matthead discuß! O 15:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The article says that pretzels are dunked in lye. In practice sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide (lye's cousin) are used. before baking. I'm not disputing this, but I really think that section needs an additional mention that the lye in question is a *diluted*, food-grade lye solution/.More importantly, it needs to state the actual lye content in that solution. I'm guessing it must be a weak solution; between 0.1% and 3%, but I'm not certain, so I won't add it myself.
The reason I suggest this is, it's quite possible that some poor soul attempting to make soft pretzels could be unaware of the dangers of lye, and might use solid, non-food-grade, or a strong solution of lye, with the upshot being a trip to the emergency room, or worst case, the morgue. Can someone who knows add the specifics of what percentage the lye solution typically is? Or, at least post it here? 97.82.247.200 19:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I notice that this article lacks any detailed description of how the different varieties of pretzel are made and what parts of those processes are responsible for their distinctive characteristics (both traditional and mass-manufactured varieties), somebody that knows about pretzels should add this information, as well as perhaps a few recipes. I found the bagel article to be much more informative. 67.180.206.34 08:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Seems kinda unlikely. - Denimadept ( talk) 06:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
What date would that be-- January 13? User Talzhemir:Talzhemir —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talzhemir ( talk • contribs) 23:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
National Pretzel Month is October, ref [1], and National Pretzel Day celebrates pretzels of all shapes and sizes.
When ? Always April 26th-
See, [2]
Warrington (
talk)
13:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
The current second paragraph needs reworking or even deleting. This is the one about various pretzel variations (yogurt dipped, chocolate covered, etc). First of all it's a mess of random trivia that doesn't warrant being the second paragraph, but might be worth mentioning much further down. Secondly it's full of dubious statements about the popularity of the variations, which do not match my own experience. (No one I know eats yogurt covered pretzels, nor am I aware of any christmas association with chocolate covered pretzels..perhaps these phenomena or local to the writer's region). I'm tempted to just delete the whole thing but don't want to be too draconian, and some bits in reworked form might be worth preserving. I'm at least going to delete the useless bit about people's perceptions of the yogurt-dipped pretzel's healthfulness. -- Ericjs ( talk) 07:11, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Do not overdelete, add instead citation needed or clarification needed ={ {huh}} and wait a while. If your personal experience is not the same, it does not mean that your personal experience is always valid for everyone, everyhwhere.
Have a nice day
Warrington ( talk) 11:07, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
There are recently pretzels flavored with mustard; one may also dip pretzels IN mustard.if the latter is meant here then "dipped in mustard" is not a "variety" of pretzel.if the former please clarify. Asked by IP adress 140.180.21.199
Warrington (
talk)
09:52, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I think the timeline is very clear and makes things easy to follow and understand and I think it is a much better solution than an amorf text. Kids and even others get a much easyer understanding of the history part.
And you were not discussing that change yourself, the article was in this shape since a very long time.
Warrington ( talk) 22:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I really don’t care about maintaining the status quo. I simpl think that the timeline was more educational and more clear, I only care about the readers and how they understand articles. In my oppinion this change is not for the better. I think that this should be the main goal, all the time.
Where is that forbidden to use timelines?
Warrington ( talk) 16:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC) I do think this version IS better:
1700 - The soft pretzel was part of the southern German and Swiss German tradition. The large immigrant population became the thrifty Pennsylvania Dutch [1] culture. The pretzels popularity spread and, in time, many handmade pretzel bakeries dotted the Pennsylvania Dutch landscape. [2]
1861 - Sturgis bakery in Lititz, Pennsylvania, becomes the first commercial pretzel bakery in the US in 1850. Long wooden paddles, also known as “peels,” were used by the baker and his helper to place the pretzels on a stationary stone or brick hearth in the oven. A wider “peel” was then used to remove the pretzels from the oven. [3]
1884 - Bachman pretzel bakery founded in Reading, Pennsylvania{ [4]
1885 - Among the German population of Cincinnati, Ohio, the spelling "bretzel" is used. It is an Americanization of the pronunciation of the German word "brezel." City business directories during the 1880s have a classification for "Bretzel Bakeries", but not for "Pretzel Bakeries."
1889 - The Anderson Pretzel Factory, in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, calls itself the world's largest (65 tons daily). They have made pretzels by hand from 1889 to 1955 when machines were added. [5]
1909 - Snyder's of Hanover founded in Hanover, Pennsylvania. [6]
1922 - Federal Baking Company South Philadelphia, Pennsylvania was founded by Italian American Edmund Nacchio who followed his mother Maria Nacchio’s bakery pretzels that she began baking in 1922. It was continued by the various family members for four generations until it was sold to J&J Snack foods in the year 2000. Federal Baking lays claim for being the oldest baking soft pretzels in the city and made a major impact on the popular culture of Philadelphia comfort foods. This soft pretzel became synonymous with the Philadelphia soft pretzels. It was often slathered with yellow mustard estimated at a quart for each 200 pretzels sold. Street vendors for 80 years sold them on street corners in wooden glass enclosed cases or employed young boys to make extra cash who walked through the streets carrying baskets loaded with soft hot pretzels yelling aloud the phrase ’Fresh Pret-zels’ It became a staple Philadelphia food for snacking at school, at work or home and considered by most to be a quick meal [7]
1935 -The modern age of pretzel making began when the Reading Pretzel Machinery Company first introduced the automatic pretzel twisting machine. Prior to that, most commercial pretzels were actually shaped by a cracker-cutting machine, then placed on baking pans and put into the baking ovens by hand. [8]
1946 -Tom Sturgis Pretzel Company founded by Marriot D. “Tom” Sturgis, grandson to Julius. The first bakery was located on Grape Street in Reading, where the current Reading Area Community College is located. The giant pretzel in the front of the building serving as a landmark. [9]
1948 - At the bicentennial of the city, there were at least 15 pretzel bakeries in the Reading/Berks area. The key to the City of Reading even has a pretzel on it [10] [11]
1960 - By 1960, total pretzel sales reached $92 million. In the mid-60's, pretzels were the fourth most popular snack in the US and the number one snack with beer. Pretzel technology moved from machine-twisting to die-cut production. [12]
1963 -Largest pretzel of its time was baked: It was 40 lbs, 5-feet across baked by Joseph Nacchio of Federal Baking, Philadelphia, PA. The largest pretzel in the movies at 20 lb., 4’ pretzel shown in the 1963 movie “It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad World” by the same baker. [13]
1978 -First machine produced soft pretzel. Federal Baking Company used the original 1922 recipe but the last hand-twisted pretzel was made in 1978. Labor became too expensive and workers too hard to find. Machines were designed and at 7 pretzels a second, nearly 60,000 are extruded and baked daily. There was no change in taste or texture. The pretzel were of the same dimensions but denser and heavier (three and a half to four ounces) than the hand-twists sampled, and bears the unmistakable grainy machine surface. It also baked longer and hotter at 12 minutes. A wholewheat soft pretzel was attempted but harder to work in the machine and was discontinued. [14]
1993 - The Pretzel Museum opens in Philadelphia by members of the Nacchio family dynasty to highlight the area’s preference for their more unique more rectangle shaped styled pretzels being baked soft and unlike the dominant more circular hard pretzels produced in western Pennsylvania. Champion hand pretzel twister Helen Hoff demonstrated producing 57 pretzels per minute at this first museum. [15]
2003 - Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell declares April 26th "National Pretzel Day" to acknowledge the importance of the pretzel to the state's history and economy. Congress declared it in 1983, but stopped the "commemorative day" practice in 1998. Pennsylvania produces 80% of the nation's pretzels. [16]
2007 - Not all U.S. pretzels are made using automatic pretzel twisting machine. Some Pennsylvania pretzels, like Auntie Anne's Pretzels, Southeastern Pennsylvania are still hand-rolled soft pretzels. [17] The biggest pretzel ever baked spanned 12 feet across, and was created by Auntie Anne's franchisees from Lake Charles, LA. [18]
Warrington (
talk)
16:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I find the timeline easier to read, and more appropriate for the likel uses of an encyclopedia than a paragraph based style. Long paragraphs, especially with superscript references, so not work well in html. The best formatting for print and the best formatting for the web are different. We are an online encyclopedia. I see no reason to insist on the changed form. changing an established format for an article based on personal preferences is not helpful. DGG ( talk) 19:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Come on: I mean that removing the timeline, that change is not helpful – for the readers.
That is my oppinion, both as a reader and an editor. The encyclopaedia is for the readers, - and the efforts to make an article better is for the readers, they should be the ones to benefit from it.
Can’t find anything against timelines in the
Manual of style or
Wikipedia:The perfect article only a recommendation be: clear and accurate and the timeline is very clear, is a clear description of the subject major turning points in American pretzel history, it is understandable, is precise, explicit and informative.
~~ Warrington ( talk) 22:24, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Apart from writing your Wikipedia article in sections, paragraphing is the largest scale on which you'll need to structure your text. A paragraph break allows your readers to tie up the idea that they've just read about—to "download" it more deeply into their memory—and to start afresh on a new idea or a new aspect of the same idea. Aim for paragraphs of roughly equal size, without being overly strict in this respect.
Overly long paragraphs make it harder for your readers to stay interested; a mass of grey text will force them to work hard to keep an ever-increasing amount of information active in their working memory as they wade through. In this situation, try to identify a sentence in the middle of the paragraph that appears to be a departure—to offer something new. Make it the first sentence in a new paragraph.
Similarly, short, "stubby" paragraphs tend to break up the prose, interrupting the flow: give your readers the chance to link a number of sentences into a cohesive whole; that will usually be the easiest way for them to absorb your message. Stubby paragraphs are all too common in Wikipedia articles, and reviewers in the FAC room are apt to object to them. Apart from the psychological effect on the readers, one-sentence paragraphs can result in a fragmented visual appearance. A stubby paragraph should typically be either expanded into full ideas or merged smoothly with another paragraph (most often the previous one). Very occasionally, a single-sentence paragraph might be appropriate to emphasise or summarise an idea.
What about including a short section with a timeline.
I think the timeline breaks it up and makes it easier to understand, wiki rules say it is fine. I say go for it voice99 —Preceding undated comment added 14:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC).
Or soemthing as KV5 suggested. The article can remain in standard from with the addition and improvement of a short timeline of the most notable and critical developments included in a timeline. This would give a good illustration and perspective for the article. A similar timeline would improve the already impressive saffron and pepper articles as well, if someone wants to add one there. Although my experiences trying to work on FA articles leads me to believe they are guarded against anyone wanting changes. But I think Warrington is onto something. Timelines are frequently used in encyclopedias, and the reason is that they communicate certain pieces of information in a very effective manner, just like photographs. There are no words than can communicate an image, and there are no paragraphs that are as effective in describing and ilustrating the passage of time and the perspective that gives on events, the way a timeline does. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 00:12, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Sounds good.
Warrington ( talk) 00:16, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Sure,
Howewer, Wikipedia:Lists guidline states:
Lists are commonly used in Wikipedia to organize information. Lists may be found within the body of a prose article, or as a stand-alone article. Redundancy between lists and categories is beneficial because they are synergistic, and is covered in the guideline Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates. Like categories, lists can be used for keeping track of changes in the listed pages, using the Related Changes feature.
Lists have three main purposes:
1.The list may be a valuable information source. This is
particularly the case for a structured list. Examples would include lists organized chronologically , grouped by theme, or annotated lists. (this case)
2 Lists contain internally linked terms and thus in aggregate serve as natural tables of contents and indexes of Wikipedia. ...
3 Some lists are useful for Wikipedia development purposes. The lists of related topics give an indication of the state of Wikipedia, the articles that have been written, and the articles that have yet to be written. However, as Wikipedia is optimized for readers over editors, ...
Timelines as a list according to the policy, are fine. First US pretzel, a court case?
http://www.hammondpretzels.com/histpret.htm
I added one more picture to the gallery for visual balance. Warrington ( talk) 08:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
[[Wikipedia:Lists guidline policy is both for lists found within the body of a prose article, or as a stand-alone article.
There are some stand alone list here and there, like
Lord Byron (chronology)
Chronology of European exploration of Asia or
Timeline of the Salem Witch Trials.
Wikipedia:Embedded list also states that:
Embedded lists are lists that are either included in the text of an article or appended to the end of an article. Embedded lists should be used only when appropriate; sometimes the information in a list is better presented as prose paragraphs. ( Which goes for the cronology )
At the Wikipedia:Embedded list, at thre saction Appropriate use, they say something similar:
However, it can be appropriate to use a list style when the items in list are "children" of the paragraphs that precede them. Such "children" logically qualify for indentation beneath their parent description. In this case, indenting the paragraphs in list form may make them easier to read, especially if the paragraphs are very short.
And I think it does make sense.
Warrington ( talk) 14:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
By the way, I like the new picture; it's a good shot. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 14:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes it flows. If we keep everything like it is now but add a section cronology to the end, I think it would be a good solution.
Warrington ( talk) 14:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
No idea. The timeline probably needs some reworking, do as you want...
Warrington ( talk) 15:30, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Ok. I do not know about this history about the trial when pretzel was mentioned in official papers för the first time in America, in the 1600s, but I have read about it everywhere, I think the Pretzel Museum is mentioning it too (hand made pretzels, manufactured, of course).
Warrington ( talk) 12:45, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, it was in the article for two years before, or so. I thougt that you can simply go adead and make you changes on it.
Warrington ( talk) 10:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
The Reuters article in the lead is a reliable source that provides factual support for the Italian origin of the pretzel. There is no support provided for the pretzel having a German origin; the reference that was provided earlier cited a legend, not fact, and gave no definitive time frame for establishment. KV5 ( Talk • Phils) 14:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
As you can see in http://www.brezel-baecker.de/brezelgeschichte , the origin told by reuters is a legend, too. In fact, nobody really can declare to know the real origins. As you can see in the link, many legends are mentioned, one of Italian, several of German origin. By the way: In the 7th century, it's just an anachronism to speak about "Italian" and "German". But, please, remember that the story of the Italian monk is just one interpretation of the pretzel history. And the fact that reuters mention only that one is not sufficient to declare that this should be the truth. In contrary, to mention only one legend is just not a scientific method. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.230.114.15 ( talk) 17:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, then let's try the linguistic argument: An Italian /p/ (of pretiola) can never become high german /b/. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.230.111.37 ( talk) 18:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
No, it can't. These are two different phenomena. As an university teacher of German linguistics, believe me, I know what I'm talking about: What you mentioned is called "Auslautverhärtung", and this is only related to the end of a syllable. In the 7th century, the second "Lautverschiebung (sound shift; Grimm's law)" is fully realized. So a /p/ in the beginning of a syllable can never become /b/ in high german. In fact, the other direction is common in high german dialects (e.g. berg --> perg in Bavarian), but the lenisation of an /p/ in initial sound is not documented.
If your sources are cooking books, then try out http://www.dutchcountryconcessions.com/about/pretz_history.php. Can't you see that these "facts" are all legends and not scientific. I have not found a historian who could give medieval documents that prove one of those. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.230.111.37 ( talk) 18:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, I think it does, at least the opinion that is related to the linguistic argument . See the wikipedia articles for the laws of sound shifting. A source that mention at least a "documentation of the pretzel": http://zaracookout.wordpress.com/2008/12/14/brezel/. I have a diploma in Latin. So, the etomology is pretium. With a /p/ - it was ever a /p/ in the initial sound. So, your article shows really the exactness...I have to confess —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.230.111.37 ( talk) 19:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Cooking-books are? You can't divide this into word and the signed thing. In this time, if an invention was created, the word moved often from the one place into the next - together with the thing per se. And I wanted to show the etymological problems. By the way, if you use categories like "Italian", "German", "French", then see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia. In 610 A.D. there is simply no Italy, France, German,... it's the Franconian empire and nothing else. You use anachronisms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.230.111.37 ( talk) 19:32, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, if you want to take phrases out of books which are obviously historical mistakes and if you don't want to think yourself any further...than write the article of the pretzel history in a pseudo-objective manner.
But this is the exact thing you do. You write about "French and Italian" origin, you don't want to realize the sources that mention the "German" origin. This is ridiculous and this is dictatorial manipulation. Well, write what you want to - i any case, you are a person who only believes what she wants to. This a pervertion of hermeneutics, and I have really better things to do than convince ignorant humanbeings. Maybe your ignorance is the problem, your argumentation isn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.230.111.37 ( talk) 20:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Hey there: I saw a reference to this in Wikiproject Food and Drink. I'm afraid I share the qualms that have been expressed about the sourcing of the origin of the pretzel. I don't think that a cookbook is a reliable source, and the "Reuters" link was to a press release, not a Reuters article, so I've removed it entirely. I've let the others remain, but I still think the sourcing is quite weak so I have changed the wording to "possibly" French or Italian origin. I think that much better sourcing is needed. The books that are cited here are not serious histories. Much better sourcing is required to make a definitive statement about the origin of such a common foodstuff. -- JohnnyB256 ( talk) 00:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
The question of the origin is "answered" in the first sentence of the wikipedia article. Due to the many existing legends, all of the possible origins should be mentioned. An article should be objective and refer to those differences. Other things aren't scientific at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.230.127.182 ( talk) 04:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
"...It was the year 610 A.D., at a monastery in Southern France of Norther Italy, That a creative monk first formed strips of bread
dough into the shape of a child's arms folded in prayer..." Pennsylvania Snacks: A Guide to Food Factory Tours By Sharon Hernes Silverman May 2001
"...Pretzels have been traced back all the way to the seventh century, when Italian or French monks would shape strips of bread dough
into the shape of a child's arm folded in prayer..." The Best Bake Sale Ever Cookbook By Barbara Grunes March 8, 2007
"...One source claims that a monk in Italy in the early 600s developed the pretzel shape while trying to come up with a way to use
extra dough from baking bread..." Food Bites: The Science of the Foods We Eat By AnnaKate Hartel August 28, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.98.185 ( talk) 06:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
You know when I search for Soft Pretzel I would expect to goto a soft pretzel page, not the REGULAR pretzel page. I am most disappointed in this re-direction. 68.5.97.182 ( talk) 07:10, 23 December 2009 (UTC)