![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This new article cites no references, so I added the original research/ verifiability template. DOONHAMER | BANTER 19:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
True enough, Doonhamer, though I'll reckon you're a bit out of your area of expertise. I assume we'll get this page rolling soon. There's a rather dire need for it, for folks interested in contemporary marxist and post-marxist theory. The existing page on consciousness just ain't the thing. If it's okay by you I'm going to delete that "original research" thing when the time comes. Happy gnoming. -- Dylanfly 20:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I am indeed out of my area of expertise, which is why I would not attempt to edit the content of this article. I do, however, have more than enough expertise and experience with Wikipedia to recognize when an article on a complex subject requires reliable sources to back up its claims. I thus felt fully qualified to add the NOR template. I have complete faith in your analysis of the adequacy of the existing article on consciousness, and I completely trust you to have the expertise necessary to provide the needed sources to this article. When you have done so, it will indeed be okay by me if you remove the "original research thing". Indeed, it will be far more than okay by me. Oh, and as if gnoming could be anything other than happy. :o) DOONHAMER | BANTER 21:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I like the idea of this article. In my understanding, Marx held the view that the development of productive forces is decisive for state of development of a society, while ideology plays a secondary role. For example, "The German Ideology" First Premises 4. The Essence of the Materialist Conception of History Social Being and Social Consciousness, reads:
The phantoms formed in the human brain are also, necessarily, sublimates of their material life-process, which is empirically verifiable and bound to material premises. Morality, religion, metaphysics, all the rest of ideology and their corresponding forms of consciousness, thus no longer retain the semblance of independence. They have no history, no development; but men, developing their material production and their material intercourse, alter, along with this their real existence, their thinking and the products of their thinking. Life is not determined by consciousness, but consciousness by life. In the first method of approach the starting-point is consciousness taken as the living individual; in the second method, which conforms to real life, it is the real living individuals themselves, and consciousness is considered solely as their consciousness.
Thus, instead of
from the quote we could (in a formal manner) deduce just a statement like
I have problems to find an actual example where Marx really claims that the ruling classes create und use ideologies as a means to "mislead", "confuse" or "beguile" the oppressed classes. -- Schwalker 21:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the camera obscura metaphor can be interpreted as a critique of (social and other) inequality. On the other hand side, this metaphor is vague and open for many interpretations, so to avoid original research it seems the article would need a secondary source from an important scholar who delivers an interpretation according to which the metaphor does refers to inequality. I don't know, and was not able to determine via google-search, which Marxists gave what first interpretations of the metaphor (after The German Ideology was published in 1932), so this probably requires to open books. In my personal understanding, the metaphor is a critique of the subject and object categories as such, and by this critique goes beyond direct economical class inequalities. I find it similar to the fourth thesis on Feuerbach, where Marx speaks of the religious duplication of the world.-- Schwalker 21:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Folks, head on over to consciousness and look what you find: a rather limited, neuro-psychological depiction. Don't you think we should dis-ambiguate consciousness? There's artificial consciousness, Political consciousness, Black Consciousness Movement, consciousness raising, and perhaps more. I'm concerned that this discussion of consciousness overwhelms the other common uses. And now we've got political consciousness. I'm new on Wikipedia and would like help proceeding with disambiguation on this topic.-- Dylanfly 20:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)