![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Unfortunately a lot of claims relating As Nas to poker on the net come from poker journalists without any sources. The only source I found on poker history that came from an actual historian was found below:
http://www.pagat.com/vying/pokerhistory.html The question naturally arises as to which way round any borrowing may have taken place. Favouring the priority of As-nas is the fact that As-nas cards, a subset of the Persian ganjifeh pack, are attested as early as 1700 in Persia, though without any account of the game played with them. Against it are -
the absence of any description of the game earlier than 1890; the fact that As is not a Persian word and obviously derives from the French for Ace; and (hence) the probability that As-nas derives from a European vying game rather than the other way around.
Also, since games that incorporated handrankings,betting, and bluffing were found in earlier European games, it is safe to assume that the heart of poker lies within games such as Primero or Poque, not As Nas. If As Nas conributed anything to poker, it was the introduction of two pair and the full house (though considering thre earliest reference to As Nas was after the invention of American poker, this is unlikely.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.176.82.74 ( talk) 18:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The ISBN is wrong for Doyle's Super System (1979): the correct ISBN is 1580420818. The current text incorrectly suggests that Sklansky and Caro both wrote their books in the 1970's. Sklansky's Theory of Poker wasn't written until 1987. I don't have a copy of Mike Caro's Book of Tells, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't written in the 1970's either, and possibly as late as the 1990s. I haven't changed the article yet - do I have my facts straight?-- Toms2866 13:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Update: the Library of Congress suggests Caro's book first published 1984. [1] -- Toms2866 14:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
History > pochen
Please note that the German word 'pochen' also means 'to brag'. The same word is found in Dutch, meaning 'to brag'. So it is more likely that the translation 'to brag' is the one that should be used in the history of poker, rather than 'to knock'. 82.170.120.233 23:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that an article which purports to inform people about any game ought to contain -- Hpesoj00 22:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)a section on how that game is played. I noticed a link to a page dealing specifically with the ranks of poker hands, but why should this be separate from the main article? If you went looking for information on, say, Australian rules football, and found information about the history of the game, and what kind of outfits the referees wear, but had to link to a separate page for information on the game's rules and scoring structure, would that not seem a bit odd to you--not to mention inconvenient? And yes, I'm well aware that there are hundreds of variant games with the word "poker" in their names, but something that practically all of them have in common is the ranking of hands. This information, at the very least, ought to appear on the main page, along with a brief explanation regarding exceptions such as lowball, hi-lo, Omaha-8, and so forth. That way, if each game gets a link of its own, the reader can click to the game he or she wants to know more about with at least some idea of what they all share in common. Otherwise, a person who knew nothing about poker might be forgiven for thinking that what links all these games is the fact that they're played with chips, and that it's rude to "splash the pot." Frankly, it's hard to believe that this was ever a "Featured Article," as it currently stands. I'll leave it as it is for a few days, but after that I'm changing it if nobody can give me a good reason why I shouldn't. Buck 19:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Let me clarify: I wasn't recommending that we duplicate entire articles concerning specific variants like Omaha and Stud. What I was, and am, saying is that an article about a game ought to include some information about fundamentals of game play. On that we can all agree, I'm sure. Now, whenever I've had people who've never played before at my home game, the first thing they want to know is the ranking of hands--and this doesn't change from game to game (with a couple of exceptions, which I mentioned in my last post, above). Why not supply that information for curious readers of the Wikipedia in the body of the main article? And don't say the article is verging on being "absurdly long," because it's far from that. Go have a look at the articles on any other game in this encyclopedia and you'll find information in the main body of each one detailing game-play. So far, I'm not hearing any compelling arguments for keeping the article in its currently fragmented state. Anyone else feel like weighing-in on this subject? Buck 22:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, fair enough. The article certainly reads much more clearly and fluidly than it did, prior to your edits, LDC, so thanks very much. Buck 01:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've gone through the history with a fine tooth comb and put in the references to the two books that the original author mentioned (doesn't seem to be much added after that, mostly is formatting and removing ridiculous statements like "In the event of an electoral draw, the United States Constitution requires the President to be selected by a single hand of poker." However, I'm still unsure where people are getting their sources of information for the history of poker! Please, can we have the original source material cited so I can put this into the References section? - Ta bu shi da yu 12:40, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Er, do we have a reference for this quote? I Googled "'Andrew Barton'" and various parts of his quote, only to discover that the only pages that contained it were actually from this article! =P That's not very reassuring. -- Susurrus 10:04, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Should this be in [[Category:Sports]]? Not according to the wikipedia or dictionary.com definitions, it shouldn't. -- ALargeElk | Talk 15:31, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
No. No more then chess is a sport. -- Jtd00123 ( talk) 03:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Most of the world considers chess to be a sport. I think the definition of "sport" isn't so hard and fast, there are many qualities that they share, but not all sports share every quality. Judging by recent Olympic standards, the criteria of competition, media and spectator involvement, and monetary dividends seem altogether as important as physical exertion. And poker is actually physically exerting -- this has been measured on players while playing, and try playing for 12-14 hours a day, for several days in a row, see if physical stamina doesn't start to enter the picture. Revolver 07:29, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have been playing poker for over 5 years now and have heard the discussion before on whether or not poker is a sport. Just about anybody can participate in a sport, but the level of physical activity involved goes a long way in determining how good we are in it. Very active sports like football, ice hockey, and baseball are much more difficult for the average person to participate in. Many more people can play a game like golf, but very few are able to play at a really high level. Which brings me to poker. Like many other activities like darts, pool, or chess, poker is more of a fun and pleasurable way to spend time with friends. However when you start moving into the professional levels of these actives it is a much different set of parameters that goes into playing. Just as the average golfer has little chance of beating a Tiger Woods or Ernie Els, the average poker player does not have much of chance sitting with Phil Helmuth, Johnnie Chan, or any of the top-flight poker players. Last of all I would say there is one aspect of poker that moves into the realm of sport and that is tournament play. Sitting and being mentally sharp for multiple hours can be very taxing. It is a test of not only your skills as a poker player but endurance. GMR May 25, 2005
Talk's been dead around here for a while, but if anyone cares a few weeks ago I started writing about 40-50 new articles on poker players. Since establishing them I've started to go back and add more information as I do more in depth research. You may be interested in User:CryptoDerk/poker where I keep track of the articles, their progress, and miscellaneous information. Also, of course, category:Poker players contains all these people as well. CryptoDerk 00:10, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
Ok, the part about fireplace poker is really out of place. It's really nothing more than a dictdef, and plus now someone has put in a sentence at the top of the article that says that there's a sentence at the bottom of the article talking about the instrument. The referring sentence is longer than the sentence giving the dictdef of a poker. Because of all this, if there's no overwhelming objection then I think they should be removed in a week or so. Thoughts? Comments? CryptoDerk 14:55, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
Poker is an enormously broad subject, an almost textbook example of the value of adding links to an article. These links should enhance and further enrich the experience of a user that comes to this page. There some content rich websites out there that do just that, with hundreds of articles, how-tos, profiles and other explaintions. The fact that these sites will virtually always have advertisments is irrelevant to the goal of enrinching the user experience and educating that user on a topic.
At the same time, there are tens of thousands of low quality, copied, reprinted, stolen websites out there that offer no educational value. Their only value, if you could call it that, is in conduiting people to other sites that have value (in this case places where poker can be played, which are wiki-linked elsewhere). It's counterproductive to link to those.
The guiding principal should be in-depth, authoritative, unique content. If a site doesn't have minimally dozens of such unique content pages, it shouldn't be considered. If it does, linking to it is very valuable. Except for the US Playing Cards link which has trivial content, the other current links offer hundreds of thousands of words on the topic, with perspectives that users can benefit from being exposed to.
Let's keep the links focused on in-depth, authoritative, original content. Remove the mere conduits and copiers, and let small sites grow until they have the content to merit a mention. -- 2005
I have a site that lists home poker games Home Poker Games around the country - I think that it would be a valuable addition, but may be in the wrong section if listed under the very general topic of poker. If listed under Home Poker Games or something along those lines, it may be more relevant. Thoughts?
I think that it could be relevant depending on the content of the site because by linking to google poker and yahoo poker additional sites are being covered. I can see both of your points though UTC and citypokergames.com
for which playing poker is the main source of income?
What the hell is a professional poker player?
Daniel Negreanu. Jennifer Harman. Chip Reese. Many others. Poker is a beatable game because you play against other players, not impossible mathematics, like craps or roulette. Foodmarket 02:42, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Just out of interest for any pros out there - What levels blinds do you lot play, and how much do you make averagely every month or a year. I am just talking about cash games here not tournaments. Just would like to get some kind of idea.
I know Poki comes out of the University of Alberta GAMES group, but isn't Darse Billings the primary author and not Jonathan Schaeffer? I think Darse should at least get equal mention, if not sole mention. -- Fritzlein 17:07, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I've been turning around in my head (and with people on 2+2 in the Beginners and Brick & Mortar forums) the idea of an extensive poker-specific wiki. I think it would go outside the bounds of Wikipedia, because I'm envisioning articles with evolving "best practices" for strategy, bankroll management, etc. as well as others tracking current state of casino and most likely online play (Where can I find a $3/6 game in Atlantic City?, for example -- for that matter which games are consensus fishiest?).
So here are the options that I see:
It seems like any of these will involve rework or cut-paste. For example, this site already has good high-level strategy and rules; no reason not to use that as a starting point as we drill down.
Any thoughts on this idea? In general, how does Wikipedia relate to other subject-matter specific wikis? (In other words, do people stop building out the Wikipedia entries and move to the specific site, or not, or what?)
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
PhilipR 13:31, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
This project is now live at http://poker.wikicities.com . Its intention is emphatically NOT to replace the poker content here, but to complement it with deeper, possibly more opinionated, content that's out of scope for WP. Come say hi. :) - PhilipR 22:18, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This section is an archive of old discussion.
![]() | This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
This article was the "article of the day" today (deservingly). One gets a different perspective on the article reading it in unlinked plain text. In particular, this sentence stands out:
When these are linked, the sentence makes sense; when not, it looks confusing and even ungrammatical.
I would propose a rule: An article should be written so that it makes sense whether or not the links are there. A plain text, unlinked version of the article should be entirely helpful and nonpuzzling. Therefore, the expected following of links should not do the work of text; links should be for further information, not for getting essential information to the topic at hand.
What do you think? -- LMS
Hmm. I am inclined to agree, though this may be harder in some cases than it first appears, and it may also make the text a bit more awkward than it might be otherwise for those who are reading it in original form. We have, after all, chosen the medium for our project, and a process that facilitates creation for that medium. The fact that the content may not work well in other media should not surprize us, nor should it bother us much. The hypertext concept isn't going away, so our information--and links are information too--will always be useful. Text such as the above can be reworked without much difficulty, but is it really worth the effort? What about articles with animations, or interactive content, or good use of fonts sizes and colors, or other aspects of this medium that can greatly increase understanding? Should we sacrifice those things to make articles mailable? Or should we add fallbacks at the expense of extra effort and possibly making the original uglier? I don't think it's necessarily a slam dunk, but should be left to the judgment of authors. Certainly articles that are primarily text with little need of extras should be written to fall back cleanly--articles on philosophy, history, and so on. But articles on math really need complex symbols to be understandable, and should use them. If that makes them non-mailable, sobeit. Likewise, my "hands" subpage here really needs the suit symbols for clarity. That makes them non-mailable too. I've tried to avoid those symbols on pages that didn't need them, but those that do really do. -- LDC
I'm now totally convinced that we shouldn't aim at making all pages mailable. I think I did have a point, but I'm not sure best how to state it. -- LMS
It might make sense for "accessibility" (in many forms, including the ability to survive email) to be point of quality, just not necessarily a reqired one. Math is the real toughie--there's just no way to do it without the symbols, and so we need to have specialized methods. But the change you suggest to the one sentence on the poker page does make sense, so I reworded it. It's now a better article, in that it expresses exactly what it did before just as effectively, and now it is also less confusing when read as email or on Lynx or a speech browser, etc. It's the same issue with things like illustrations: if you can make the article make sense without them with little work, why not? But if you can't, don't lose any sleep over it. --LDC
I read the recent update about an electoral draw being decided by a hand of poker, however I have not been able to find this referred to anywhere, particularly not in the US Constitution or in any of the Amendments. I'm new to Wikipedia, should I delete that line if it can't be proven or is wrong?
The game of poker (or at least most of the variants) is considered to be computationally unsolvable.
"Computationally unsolvable" means that it's infeasible to have an algorithm that would play perfect strategy, right? That should be explained. But, what would "perfect strategy" mean in poker, when there are humans involved? How can there be a perfect strategy for bluffing, for example? Axlrosen 15:50, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I think I've more-or-less cleared that up. [[User::Unknown|Unknown]]
I removed the Poker 101 site...there's a lot of questionable advice there, and even most of the unharmful advice is really not very important. For instance, there's one article that basically advocates a "set winning limit", this is straight out of the "silly money management" theory of poker. Even if you have a stop limit for psychological reasons, there's no reason to have a stop winning limit. Most of the stuff is about tournaments, which has almost no relevance to ring play. The stuff about online play is equally bad -- most of it is tells based on time for your opponent to act. First off, this is not a sure thing to go by, you're better just going by basic principles and solid play. Second, many people can fake these tells easily. Third, even if you're against someone who has these tells, if they're using the "act in turn" buttons, they're not very good players, and you can probably beat them without resorting to online tells. Bottom line, there's little basic strategy there, a lot of questionable stuff. Am I the only person here who thinks we shouldn't be giving questionable advice here at wikipedia? (The last time I checked, the Texas hold 'em article had some awful advice, see my comments there. Revolver 01:00, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The first paragraph had some stuff that was awkward and unnecessary; the specific reference to "five cards", for example. First, in the place it was found, I was talking about vying games in general, not poker specifically. Second, the idea that a game with other than five cards isn't poker is a matter of opinion that some (including me) would dispute. To me, the essence of poker is the betting procedure, not the hands. So something like Carribean Stud (a table game) is not poker at all, even though it uses the traditional 5-card hands; but 3-card lowball definitely _is_ poker, even though it doesn't use five cards or poker hands. I think the majority of professionals would agree with me on that one. LDC
I removed a link to pokerworks.com, the summary given said it was a link to poker rules, and although the site may contain that it was not on the page linked to. In addition, the site seems to be primarily a place for referals to online poker sites. --best, kevin ··· Kzollman | Talk··· 16:24, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
Don't the quotes belong in WikiQuotes instead of here? -- Randal L. Schwartz 05:08, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
This website has taken wiki's material on their site, [2], should they mention wikipedia on their site so that the copy left be accepted. 132.204.227.73 14:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Poker Forums have become an extremely popular method of both honing skill and meeting other people, albeit in cyberspace. They offer leagues, discussion groups, feedback on both land based and internet poker rooms and all types of related and unrelated items, including commerce.
Presently it could barely be argued that the three most popular forums are Online Poker Tour, Poker Cartel and Poker Analysis. These three forums represent more players between them in a popular online "Forum Challenge" than the other 97 forums represented combined. Their approaches to their niche markets is as different as the people who play on them.
Most players on forums participate in forum games at various site in what are termed "freerolls". This means there is no entry fee charged to enter a tournament, but there is prize money awareded to the top players in some amount that is usually supplied by the poker sites. In this way the poker sites provide some real money that will allow players who have not deposited yet to play at their tables. This prize inducement not only allows players who would normally just play in the "fun" (play money) games, it makes for more players, i.e. more "action" and hopefully will provided incentive for the players to actually deposit and continue to build the sites traffic/business.
Forums provide a service for both their members and their affiliate sites. The larger forums can bring traffic to new and established sites in droves. Poker Cartel recently brought over 1000 of its member to a new site in a months time and Online Poker Forum exceeded that number by 350 according to one poker room manager. Those types of numbers are a big boost to a new poker rooms' business.
Members of forums range from the very involved to the uninvolved. There are those who will spend hours a day communicating with friends/other members "posting" their opinions on various topics displayed on "threads". These "threads" allow for lively discourse, jokes, business connections, poker strategy, new bonus options at different sites and as wide a range of other topics for the membership as the imagination can come up with.
Please feel free to add to this poker forum topic.
I question placing the entire section titled "Computer Players" in the main article. While poker certainly is of interest to AI researchers, AI is generally not a subject that most poker players care much about. Why not move this to a separate article and reference it under this article's "See Also" section?
How about a more neutral pic? Besides, what about the different types of Poker, Carib, Pai...? Ksenon 02:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Anyone know what the game complexity of Poker would be? I don't think it is directly related to the probabilities of winning a certain hand or amount of cards. Help out in the combinatorial game theory sections as well. 70.111.251.203 23:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
What was wrong with the infobox that used to be up? 165.230.46.150 18:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Tells are shown through betting patterns, not simply physically, so to say that computers do not have tells is misleading.
These really don't belong in the article - as a rule, anything more than two of the absolutely most essential quotes is just getting spammy. I've removed them - feel free to pick a good one and put it back. Stevage 15:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone, thanks for letting me join your group of editors, I am writting my first article at Poker calculator, i'm gonna add references soon. But I was wondering if after I finish my article if it could be added to the List_of_poker_related_topics? Btw, is there a way to replace the underscore for spaces so it does not like ascii? -- Cheers
User:Jamon8888 added the inline comment to the article, I have moved it here for discussion. Personally, I don't think the website is substantial enough to merit inclusion. --best, kevin kzollman][ talk 23:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I really think that we have a "special " link that merit inclusion. We try to offer free meetup for poker players so we 'd like to be featured here. Meetup have a 19 $ fee to create a poker group and we think it is unfair. So up to you to include our link. It could help you connect each other in your local communities. xhttp://poker.citycita.org/ Local poker groups and events Local poker groups and events - citycita.org
Should the two afformentioned articles be merged?
Shouldn't there be something on "addiction" here as well? Perhaps a link to "Gambling"?
There already is - Compulsive gambling. -- Hpesoj00 22:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm very much aware that I posted this question at Talk:Poker. There seem to be no links from the Poker page to gambling in general or compulsive gambling. A bunch of my friends just started playing Poker online. So I came here wondering about how addictive Poker is. I was surprised to see that there was completely no mention of it here (at the page about Poker).
This article was removed from the GA list due to lack of inline citations ( WP:WIAGA criteria 2b). Tarret 23:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
nobody got a better picture? the current picture sucks in so many ways... it shows only a bunch of people (who could be playing any table game), it´s composition is a mess, and the image quality is also poor.
Sorry :) was looking for some information and came here and cant find it. I want to know who bets first, and who bet's last. I know the dealer button, and about the blinds. But not sure about the order of play and wether there's any variance.
anyone feel like adding something? or just replying? :)
That's typically defined by the rules and betting structure of the specific game being played, so no single answer suffices. In most non-stud games, there is a "dealer" who acts last on most betting rounds, the player to his left ("age") betting first. Blind bets may alter this order on the first betting round. In stud-type games, betting usually begins with the highest hand showing on most rounds, or with a forced bring-in on the first round. -- LDC 02:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The poker wiki should be linked to this page as it is hard to find. I don't know how to do it myself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.26.123.147 ( talk) 05:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC).
Someone put a note here about tournaments vs. ring games in the main game play section. I'm not sure whether that really belongs here; every game has different game formats like that, but that's really a detail that's not basic to the game itself. -- LDC 17:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm surprised the poker article is as short as this, compared to something like Scrabble or Monopoly (game) for example —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mglovesfun ( talk • contribs) 00:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
A bit surprising that there is no section about cheating, poker must be the the most famous game for cheating JayKeaton 04:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
It should be longer and more detailed. Phoenix7731 15:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
User 2005 seems to think that a link to a particular article more than twice is too much, no matter what the circumstances. Manual of style seems to disagree (overlinking section). As long as the links aren't cluttered together and the context is appropriate, seems you CAN have more than three instances of an internal link in an article! In this case the "see also" section serves as a quick place to find links to all the more detailed information about poker without having to filter through the whole article. So I see no reason that something as vital to poker as hand ratings shouldnt be simply placed in an uncluttered area that can be easily found. -- Jake11 08:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
NOWHERE in this article (and the same remark is true for the Poker hand rankings article) are mentionned the words SPADES, HEARTS, CLUBS or DIAMONDS !!!!!! 84.227.29.31 05:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
So, what's the question? Card suits are not used in ranking poker hands, so why should the terms be used? -- LDC 18:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Im slightly suprised there is no mention about it in the article, why the white wash? I mean poker legend Doyle Brunson talks about how he had guns pulled on him several times and if you read about that British guy David Devilfish Ulliott, Mike Matusow and others. Dont poker suffer from this negative stigma? Poker and films? There are always hustlers, criminals. Thankfully the chess community dont suffer from these criminals Mike Tyson plays chess 17:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)Mike
Sounds to me that the phrase "high roller" more likely originates in Craps rather than Poker. Scientivore 21:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |