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"On November 21, 1953, however, scientists pronounced it a crude forgery, the marriage of a modern human skull and an orang-utan's jaw, and decided that the entire package of fossil fragments at Piltdown - which included a ludicrous prehistoric cricket bat - had been planted by someone."
Monicasdude 22:12, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) (no financial interest)
The cricket bat explained (Piltdown A Scientific Forgery, Frank Spencer, ISBN 010 838 5225 Parameter error in {{ ISBN}}: checksum):
Martin Hinton is credited with carving the cricket-bat: http://www.clarku.edu/~piltdown/map_expose/betrayers_of_truth.html
Cricket bat image at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/sci_nat/03/piltdown_man/html/tools_and_fakes.stm
The cricket bat reference comes from a follow up paper by Dawson and Woodward in 1915. The authors themselves are not responsible, as the comment was made in a 'Discussion' section at the end of the paper, recording the thoughts of scientists present at the original reading of the paper. 'Mr Reginald Smith' is recorded as saying "he could not imagine any use for an implement that looked like part of a cricket-bat" (p148). Whilst this comment is telling of how English-centric the scientists' studying Piltdown were in their thinking, it should be noted that no one ever said that they actually thought it was a cricket bat. Dawson, C. and Woodward, A.S. (1915) “On a Bone Implement from Piltdown (Sussex).” Quarterly Journal of the Geological Society of London 71:144-149. Carl weathers bicep 15:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
If your "WRONG" statement was directed at my comment, then feel free to go ahead and check my references. Its right there in the 1915 paper. Not to dispute your expertise or anything, what with you have watched a documentary about Piltdown Man once. -- Carl weathers bicep ( talk) 15:54, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the following sentence from the Exposure section:
Perhaps the most ridiculous revelation was that an " artifact" near the bones which was believed by the scientists to be a tool or a part of the skeleton, but later turned out to be a cricket bat.
It is entirely untrue that this item "turned out to be a cricket bat" - it was a fake prehistoric artifact carved out of bone. Nor was it ever believed to be part of the skeleton.
I cannot help wondering whether this anonymous addition was really made in good faith. It would imply that the scientists who examined the finds and believed them to be genuine, were not just gullible or careless, but staggeringly incompetant. Could it be a subtle creationist dig - an attempt to imply that scientists are prepared to overlook obviously bogus evidence as part of some grand "pro-evolution" conspiricy? -- TomH 02:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
It is entirely true that it was a cricket bat. See, for example, the recent TV documnetary mentioned below 68.183.223.189 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 01:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
... I stopped his work, and searching the spot with my hands, pulled out a heavy blade of bone of which he had damaged the end. It was much covered up with very sticky yellow clay, and was so large as to excite our curiosity. We therefore washed it at once, and were surprised to find that the damaged end had been shaped by man and looked rather like the end of a cricket-bat; we also noticed that the other end had been broken across, and we thought it must have been cracked by the weight of the gravel under which it was originally buried.
on p.45 are two drawings of the "tool", and they do indeed resemble the wedge of a cricket bat. Smith-Woodward surmises that they are made of bone from an elephant. He says (p.47): " We cannot guess for what purpose it was made or how it was used... On the whole, it suggests a digging stick... Although no wooden tools have been preserved in the Piltdown gravel, there can be no doubt that the man who made the bone tool just described was accustomed to work in wood. The method of shaping the bone suggests work in wood." Indeed! It does look like a hoaxer's joke. But do we have a reference for the notion that it wasn't bone but was indeed wood? -- Dannyno ( talk) 09:50, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
I researched Piltdown pretty throughly a few years back, relying on the original material rather than an unnamed documentary, and never came across anything that suggested the 'cricket bat' wasn't simply a bone implement that resembled a cricket bat. As far as I am aware no one ever seriously suggested that it was a cricket bat (see my reference in discussion above) -- Carl weathers bicep ( talk) 16:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Who was Martin Hinton and what could have been his motive in perpetrating the hoax? Bastie 00:55, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Just a couple of points.
Firstly, I seem to remember reading that Dawson had a history of faking. This was in connection with the sighting and recording of rare birds in Sussex, I believe.
Secondly, The Piltdown forgery was technically extremely poor. Its genius was in offering the experts exactly what the wanted, evidence that human evolution was brain-led. It was also a British fossil man, the French had theirs, the Gemans had theirs and even the Chinese (horror of horrors!) had theirs, so where was the British one? It was all so unfair. Because it gave them what they wanted the people who were taken in by the Piltdown forgery were prepared to ignore all of the rules that normally apply to any sort of evidence.
Thirdly, one big problem that fakers have is where one thing joins another, in this case the area where the jaw joined the skull. The faker solved this problem by simply breaking off the terminals of the jaw. It was pointed out at the time that this must cast doubts on the integrity of the specimen, but these objections were made in the main by foreigners, whose opinions, by definition, did not count. Happy days.
Regards, Nick. -- Nick 11:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
From the article, at the end of a section:
Although now clearly discredited, Piltdown Man is a bit of a cause célèbre for creationists, who claim it shows evidence of corruption in the scientific community, and points to the possibility that other hominid fossils are hoaxes.
I think this needs to be fleshed out with some common sense reasons that this is not evidence against evolution. First of all, the hoax was perpetrated by one or a few people and discovered and outed by the scientific community as a whole. Modern theories of hominid descent (obviously) do not rely on this "fossil" and thus are unaffected. In addition, the number of hoaxes in the history of biology pales in comparison to the number of hoaxes and just plain outright lies in the creationist and intelligent design movement. -- Cyde Weys vote talk 13:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't think we should be waging the evolution v. creationist war here, the following might be fair to both sides of the argument:
Now clearly exposed as a fake, the Piltdown skull has been taken up by advocates of creationism who claim the forgery exposes corruption in the scientific community and points to the possibility that all existing specimens of fossil hominids are forgeries, thus weakening the case made for human evolution. The advocates of human evolution counter the creationists' claim by pointing out that the Piltdown hoax was exposed by the members of the same scientific community whom they, the creationists, accuse of corruption.
Regards, Nick. -- Nick 15:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to offer an explanation from my recent edit, in which I replaced the controversial text that referred to Creationism with a more generic statement about skeptics of the scientific process. First, the text as written put an inappropriate spotlight on the Creationism debate. This article is not about that debate, but about a specific historical scientific claim. The article is fairly brief as it is and the level of detail does not support drawing out the Creationist debate. Second, the statement stereotyped the Creationist viewpoint and implied that all Creationists argued that Piltdown showed science to be flawed, which isn't the case. Third, the text implied that Creationists are the only skeptics of the scientific community and scientific process, which is also not the case. Fourth, there are other points about the relevance of Piltdown, such as the fact that many fossil dating methods were improved through the inquiry on Piltdown, and the fact that we can now have a greater trust in science because Piltdown raised the level of scrutiny applied to scientific claims, are not included here, for the sake of brevity.
Rather than clarify all of these points, it makes more sense to simply refer to the general legacy Piltdown has on the reputation of science. Highlighting Creationism smacks of a political agenda on both sides and should be avoided. Coastside 15:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I should be grateful if editors from here could look at Edward Thomas Hall. Can you source, or disprove, the claim that he exposed the fraud, please? BlueValour 23:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, BlueValour. The items you reverted were by me, not TomH. I forgot to sign my little piece. Skull with a k is the correct spelling. Not sure why you removed the little groaner at the end. Possibly you didn't get the joke (such as it was), or else you feel that the seriousness proper to articles should extend to talk pages as well. I don't think it needs to. Please feel free to remove this paragraph when you have read it. Copey 2 10:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Kenneth Oakley did it. He's the one that invented radiocarbon dating which dates fossils and showed PM wasn't half a million years old; thus exposing the fraud. -- Indie.Bones 18:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Indie Bones
Its... just wow. Really badly built and arranged. I'm gonna do what I can, but I need more help from people who know more about the subject. AllStarZ 01:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
On the night of children in need 2003, over on BBC2, at 9pm, there was a timewatch episode about Piltdown Man entitled "Britain's Greaest Hoax" (I know because I recorded it out of intrest and have kept it ever since.) It presented cases for all the suspects and one of the interviewees said that Martin Hinton may have known it was a hoax and planted the cricket bat as an indicator that it was a hoax. -- Indie.Bones 18:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Indie Bones
Quote: "The fact that this theory was disproven, in spite of the enormous amount of research required, shows that science is a self correcting discipline."
This is a stupid statement. One example cannot prove that science is a self-correcting discipline. Science has many flaws. It is also unsourced. I brought it here to see what other users think before I remove it. Lotans 18:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
That whole section is horrible. It sounds like a speech, and presents opinion. This was written by somebody who has a bias, and trying to erase the falsehood. This article is is an apology of a lie. Lies still exist in science, which this section tries to assure you they don't. Should I mention some lies in recent past? 68.125.189.60 20:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've chopped it out. I also took the liberty of tweaking the intro a bit; removed "so called", "early 20th century" to 1912, "ape" to "orangutan"...
Steve Lowther 03:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Calling the forgery a "hoax" is the onset of the "excuse" tendency of this article. As early as 20tiies French and German scientists knew that this was forged, typical for that time in science, they did not write much on it. Neglecting such a find meant more or less doubting it. The fact that other scientists, esp foreigners were not allowed to inspect the skull closely, says all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.221.214.253 ( talk) 12:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
According to Beard (2004, 284-85), Eoanthropus was found in rocks dating to the Pliocene. The occurrence of Eoanthropus in the Pliocene of England may suggest that this genus was an aberrant descendant of its African ancestors, which lived during the Pliocene.
Beard, K. C. 2004. The Hunt for the Dawn Monkey. The University of California Press, Berkeley, 348 pp.
Perhaps an advocate of the theory of evolution, as opposed to one disputing it, can give an NPOV account of the credulity this hoax found in the scientific mainstream as if it were "too good to check". The earliest debunkers, for example, for dismissed for their jealously of the fame Charles Dawson obtained. 12:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I re-wrote much of the article below the history section. A lot of this meant basically taking out original research and what looks like a paste and extensive summary of the talk:origins archive page on Piltdown. It's much shorter, but I think it reads better. Could still use a bunch of references though. WLU 18:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
it is no fake? there are such opinions. why are they suppressed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.15.142.110 ( talk) 02:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Here: http://www.palarch.nl/NorthWestEurope/nweur_2006_1_1.pdf
According to THE LOST CONTROL AND OTHER MYSTERIES: FURTHER REVELATIONS ON NEW ZEALAND'S FLUORIDATION TRIAL a New Zealand dentist first discovered the Piltdown Man. They give a citation of: Taylor, R.M.S. (1937) The dentition of the Piltdown fossil man (Eanthropus dawsoni) from a new aspect. Presented to Congress of the Australian and New Zealand Association for the Advancement of Science. Reprinted in Taylor, R.M.S. (1978) Variations in Morphology of Teeth: Anthropologic and Forensic Aspects. Springfield, Illinois: Thomas. I didn't see a mention of this here. II | ( t - c) 05:19, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
The timeline at the end of the article includes the year 2003, describing it as marking the "full extent of Dawson's hoaxes exposed." However, in the rest of the content of the article, the year is only mentioned in conjunction with a 50th anniversary exhibition, and in the publication dates of several of the reference sources, which I would assume were published at that time to coincide with this anniversary and/or with the exhibition.
So... outside of an exhibition and books published in conjunction with it, what exactly happened in 2003 to more fully expose the hoaxes? I can think immediately off the top of my head of three major anniversary exhibitions which occured in the last year or two in my field of study - Japanese history - relating to the anniversaries of various historical events; but that doesn't mean that, purely by acknowledging and celebrating an anniversary with an exhibition, that anything new is being discovered or exposed.
What was discovered or exposed in 2003 that was not in 1953? Thanks. LordAmeth ( talk) 22:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
That portrait is obviously a photo, not a painting. Awien ( talk) 04:02, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
It is a painting, as a brief moment spent with Google shows. http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/human-origins/piltdown-man/ 78.28.98.192 ( talk) 04:55, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
You can clearly see a the detail of this painting (in colour) over there. In any case, the composition seems to be (at least to me) too unnatural to be a photo in any case. 77.233.75.87 ( talk) 21:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC) Also. https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/tag/john-cooke/ Quote: "This is not a photo, but the painting made by John Cooke, R.A" 77.233.75.87 ( talk) 21:47, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
The Portrait is hung in the council room of the Geographical Society of London and is discussed here https://blog.geolsoc.org.uk/2012/12/13/a-tale-of-three-meetings/ ADR — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.120.175 ( talk) 18:00, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
This article needs more HPS to maintain its B rating or move forward to A. Fifelfoo ( talk) 07:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
"The "Piltdown Man" was the fossilised remains of a previously unknown early human, ... later discovered to be a hoax"
That first sentence is factually incorrect because it states something like "X is Y, but X isn't Y". Would it be more accurate to say "The Piltdown Man was believed to be the fossilized remains...", or "The Piltdown Man was a hoax presented as the fossilized..." Wanderer of Wiki ( talk) 18:11, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I find it very odd that no mention is made of the bones' current whereabouts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason Peterson ( talk • contribs) 17:12, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
this article gives the location as the Natural History Museum, the photo has a NHM digital graphic in the corner and the article reports a news story on the NHM website which gives most of the details.- ADR — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.155.248 ( talk) 17:53, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Towards the end of paragraph five of the Find section it says "Smith sided with Woodward and at the next Royal Society meeting..." It's not clear from the rest of the article which Smith this is refering to. It's not a reference to Arthur Smith Woodward (for obvious reasons), and the only other Smith mentioned in the body of the article comes later on, in the sixth paragraph of the Find section (American zoologist Gerrit Smith Miller). Could this mysterious Smith in fact be G Elliot Smith, who is mentioned in the caption for the 'group portrait' image in the introduction section? He was a member of the Royal Society, after all. However, it's a little confusing as the body of the article doesn't make any reference to the people depicted in the image. Thanks! Siscarfe ( talk) 21:07, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
I am not expert enough in the subject, but you may wish to add a reference to scientific discussion prior to 1915 e.g. this article in The Forum, July 1914: https://archive.org/stream/theforum52newy#page/2/mode/1up Echinops ( talk) 10:20, 28 May 2014 (UTC)Echinops
I restored the {Globalize} tag, removed by Maunus. His rationale, limiting the early 20th century paleoanthropology mainly on 'the US and "England"', while dismissing other anthropologists worldwide (mentioning India and China in a derogatory manner, which IMO reflects somewhat unfortunate attitude towards non-Western scholars on his part), while not acknowledging scholarly anthropological research on the European continent at all) shows how much important it's important to put the supposed global influence/or acceptance of the Piltdown Man into correct perspective. Thanks.-- 188.122.212.12 ( talk) 18:34, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
T. de Chardin denied that he was in England at the time of the first discovery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.98.54.253 ( talk) 16:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Gould wrote in Natural History Mar 1979 a good argument implicating de Chardin, and despite prior sections here de Chardin was in the area long enough (and savvy enough about archeology) to convincingly plant the pseudoartifact in a place where it would be found- he did not need to be in the area the day of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.170.78.58 ( talk) 05:18, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
This section begins with the statement that "The identity of the Piltdown forger remains unknown." My read is that both palaeoanthropological and circumstantial evidence now indicate, possibly conclusively, that the forger was Charles Dawson. The August 10, 2016 article by Isabelle De Groote ( Solving the Piltdown Man crime: how we worked out there was only one forger) reviews recent DNA analyses, CT scanning and X-ray tomography studies that made by De Groote and her colleagues. Combine this evidence of consistency of techniques and the limited number of specimens used to create Piltdown I and II with the fact that Dawson was at every discovery, and the only one seen at the Piltdown II site. This led De Groote and her colleagues to the conclusion that Dawson was the only forger responsible for the hoax. An archival research furthermore showed that Dawson was responsible for at least 38 forgeries, such as Roman inscribed tiles and a statuette excavated by him. Catrachos ( talk) 21:26, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Could the word "supposed" or "alleged" be inserted here in front of "dishonesty"? The only dishonesty is on the part of creationists who quote the Piltdown Man hoax as "evidence" that scientists were supposedly lying, and that creationists are by implication always truthful. 89.212.50.177 ( talk) 17:38, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm new to this subject, it's all quite interesting. As far as the article goes, there's one thing I, the casual reader of Wikipedia articles, still find quite unclear; it is understood that the skull is a faked composite, yet the article refers to the braincase as being "two thirds the size of a modern human". Was the braincase from a single human? If not, OK, but clarify the point. But if it is from a single modern human, nowhere is it addressed as to why the brain size is so small. Are there any theories out there as to the origins of the source individual used in the hoax? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:6582:8580:C00:3C24:8B48:824E:B1F1 ( talk) 12:18, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 31 January 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Xiaoer8848 ( article contribs).
[5] There is no reason why this should not be in the article. Gould is a great source. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 19:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)