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What is Wikipedia guidance on people's family lives? I am disatisfied that it says that Woolas' children go to school in London, because he has a young son living in Oldham too. Do we err on the side of privacy and allow this misinformation to go out? Do we remove any mention of children because it is better to say nothing than be inaccurate? Or do we publish and be damned? I think I will leave the article unchanged until someone senior from wikipedia makes a decision. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.238.173.248 (
talk)
17:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC)reply
I am not "senior" (since nobody is, really), but we should err on the side of not giving out personal information about children on privacy grounds. I don't see where they go to school is gername to an understanding of Woolas, and would happily see that information removed.
Rodhullandemu17:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)reply
I think it's germane because Woolas in particular has claimed to be local and has repeatedly said that he lives in the constituency, that his main home is in Oldham, and that his London address is his second home. It matters to him, and presumably his constituents, because it has been on every leaflet, press release and website he has used. It is also patently incorrect, as his wife and their children live and London and Woolas rents a flat in Oldham. But I do have a dislike of getting children involved. If only adults weren't so hypocritical! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.238.173.248 (
talk)
17:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)reply
If a significant controversy has arisen over where his children go to school then it may be okay to mention it. However it will not be okay just because we feel it's relevant because we feel it reveals some degree of contradiction with his published statements
Nil Einne (
talk)
08:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)reply
I agree - if there is no significant coverage concerning his children elsewhere, then there is no reason for discussion of them in the article. (There seems not to be discussion of them in the article at present.) --
Demiurge1000 (
talk)
09:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Why is this man being so protected by people? The wiki article tells nothing about his background or parents.What is the origin of his surname?-This man had in his hands the protection and integrity of 60 million British people,and failed disastrously.Who is he? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.132.130.90 (
talk •
contribs)
Depends why he's a "Rt. Hon". I'm not sure he's ever been a Cabinet Minister, which would put him in the
Privy Council and still entitled to use the Rt Hon thereafter, even after ceasing to be a PC. Needs looking into, because I can't find out right now whether any of his posts have been of Cabinet level.
Rodhullandemu23:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Is there any evidence he's been expelled from the privy council. The electoral court can't remove his membership of the privy council, as it is a crown appointment. Whether he's been in the cabinet is irrelevant.--
Scott Mac23:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)reply
He acquired membership of the PC by virtue of being Minister of State for the Treasury &/or Home Office, a Cabinet Post, and not otherwise. That's the only way he could have got on to the PC, and so his membership, and "Rt. Hon" continue until and unless he is removed by the Crown or resigns.
Anne Widdecombe kept the "Rt. Hon" after ceasing to be a Home Office minister.
Rodhullandemu23:46, 5 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Technically he'd didn't acquire it by virtue of being a minister. Appointment to the privy council is technically a separate thing entirely. One is appointed by the monarch, and the appointment is for life, unless the monarch explicitly removes you. Cabinet ministers are traditionally always appointed to the privy council, as are some other senior ministers. In this case Woolas was appointed when he was a minister of state - but the appointment if for life. His ceasing to be a minister, an MP, or even being disbarred from being an MP makes no difference. So, unless we have evidence that he's been removed by the Queen, we list him as a PC (some discraced councillors have been removed in the recent past).--
Scott Mac00:11, 6 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Perhaps I misread
this or that article is incorrect in failing to explain the subtlety; however, we're now both saying substantially the same thing, so that's OK.
Rodhullandemu00:21, 6 November 2010 (UTC)reply
It's certainly true that former Ministers retain membership of the Privy Council for life, and certainly after leaving Parliament. However I'm not sure if Phil Woolas has been awarded membership of the Privy Council. His name does not appear on the
current list of Privy counsellors.
Sam Blacketer (
talk)
09:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)reply
I think you may well be right about this. I note a Google search for site:parliament.uk "rt hon phil woolas" does return a few mentions, as does a search for site:gov.uk "rt hon phil woolas" but in the absence of anything more significant those could simply be mistakes.
Adambro (
talk)
10:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC)reply
If the election result was void (not voidable), as the ruling says, that means that it never occurred, and Phil Woolas has not been the MP since 6 May 2010 - since then there has been no MP. I presume this needs to be changed?
138.40.149.194 (
talk)
20:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm not saying you're wrong, but do you have a source for that? The reason I'm asking is that "void" legally (in England and Wales, anyway) tends to mean "never happened", whilst "voidable" means "was not valid but exists up until a successful challenge". Everywhere I have read about this suggests that this election was void (e.g. Harman on Sunday: "null and void", BBC: "void", judgment also says void). So, as I say, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, it's just I wondered if you had read the answer anywhere (reputable). Thanks
138.40.149.194 (
talk)
12:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)reply
I think the best way to lead off in demonstrating the situation is to consider what would be the difference between a situation where the election result was retrospectively changed back to 6 May, and a situation where the election result is recognised as happening but simply ceased to have effect once the court ruled. As the court can't actually change what happened in the past, the only thing to do is look to see if anything consequential on the MP's Parliamentary activities during the period between the general election and the court finding the original election void is itself cancelled. And the answer to that is that it isn't. Their speeches are not removed from Hansard, their votes are not struck from divisions, any motion they moved which the House agreed to remains a resolution of the House. For instance
here are
Frank Gray's contributions to the 1924 Parliament up to the point his election was declared void. Salary is paid to an MP up to the point of the election being declared void.
Sam Blacketer (
talk)
15:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Actually, I believe I read somewhere they were looking into whether they can / should ask for money paid to him since the election to be repaid. But otherwise, I agree with you.
KTC (
talk)
01:30, 9 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Possibly non free image removal
So, I removed the image. That rationale is it's placement (by a possible sock puppet) is potentially in breach of copyright. Specifically this file would appear to not be available under the open gov license. The source page on the archives (
here) has copyright conditions which are presumably subject to the archive copyright statement found
here. Point 5 of this is very clear that images are not necessarily subject to free use unless permission is specifically applied for. The freedom of information request linked to from the image page ends up with a
PDF file here. Nowhere in this does it suggest that permission is granted to use treasury images, simply that these images are held by the department.
Current treasury copyright for images is identical (see
here) which suggests that there is some doubt that this image, and any similar ones, has been released under the open gov license.
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@
Bondegezou:, can we bring this discussion here? I am against using the word "disgraced" in the first sentence because it is heavily weighted and is certainly not neutral language.
WP:PUBLICFIGURE suggests that in BLP articles only the facts should be included when an incident is notable (which this is) and shouldn't be accompanied by weighted adjectives; the example given is " messy divorce" vs "divorced". If you want another article to compare to, look no further than
Lance Armstrong. He is a world class cyclist who was caught doping. Is he described as a "disgraced former professional cyclist"? No, he is "an American former professional road racing cyclist". It is later in the first paragraph (and only after qualifying his notability through his Tour de France wins) that the ending of his career through a doping scandal is mentioned. I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from.
Gaia Octavia AgrippaTalk14:54, 30 November 2015 (UTC)reply
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