This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic
Palestine region, the
Palestinian people and the
State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting
the project page, where you can add your name to the
list of members where you can contribute to the
discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the
Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You must be logged-in and
extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for
making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic
The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:
Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to
make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.
With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:
Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.
If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!
Comment
I have gone through this article and tried to put it in a more readable form. Towards the end there are a couple of paragraphs mentioning Palmachniks who went into politics. They should probably be grouped either into Left and Right, or those who are still active and those who aren't. However, I do not have the knowledge to do this. I'd be grateful if someone who knows about it, could sort that out. Regards, Joff —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
203.166.124.5 (
talk)
04:06, 4 May 2005 (UTC)reply
Incorrect Information about the Palmach in 1948
The article reads: "By the war of 1948 it had grown from humble beginnings to three fighting divisions"
However, the Palmach consisted of three brigades in 1948, not divisions.
Also, in Foundations Of Excellence: Moshe Dayan And Israel's Military Tradition (
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1988/KAA.htm):
"In early 1948, Yigal Allon, who succeeded Yitzhak Sadeh as Palmach Commander in 1945, had 6 fully-trained battalions at his disposal each of which contained 4 companies. By the early summer of that year, the Palmach contained 9 battalions and was capable of sustained, brigade-level offensive operations."
All the sources I have found, well Morris realy, say the reason for demolishing villages was to prevent them being used as bases. The case of Qastal is taken as evidence of what would happen if they were left standing. The main consequence of the 'systematic demolition' is that the villagers could not return to their homes. I don't think the Haganah leadership were suprised by this consequence. But that is just my POV.
Padres Hana (
talk)
22:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC)reply
Sources and NPOV in "The war for independence" section
Despite having many refrences, these are all to the same two sources - Morris and Khalidi - and both are highly critical of Israel. While Morris is biased but generally reliable, Khalidi is clear cut in his political views. The issue is even more problematic in issues based only on Khalidi's work. I also must say I get the un-easy feeling that the writer (or rewriter) of this section was intended on portraying a certain situation - otherwise I can't understand why he mentioned only Palestinian casualties or why the brutal lynching and mutilation of bodies of 35 Palmach fighters was described as "ill fated" (I've now edited this last issue). I've changed what I could, but I think it's important that people with access to more balanced historical sources get involved and help create a more balanced article.
Gal Kr (
talk)
21:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)reply
I agree that Morris and Khalidi have political views. But could I point out that the Khalidi work quoted, "All That Remains", is not the work of an individual. Walid Khalidi is listed as Editor. Also listed are two Associate Editors, a Project Consultant, three Asociate Editors and two Researchers. I have only once found it to be inaccurate - al-Dawayima - and don't see what the problem is. Sure lets include Palmach casualties. I've got a reference to seven killed by British on Jerusalem road ... but I get the impression it wasn't often that they were on the receiving end. "Brutal lynching and mutilation of bodies" verses "ill fated" - I don't think we will ever bridge that gap.
Padres Hana (
talk)
20:09, 13 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Dear Gal Kr, thank you for the link to the Palmach site. Not the slightest possibility of bias in any of the pages I have managed to access. Well some of the language might be a little POV...There is some doubt about the figure of 1187 killed 'during the war of independence and the years before Israel's creation'. This figure seems to be made up of all Palmach deaths including those after June 1948. Looking at the breakdown of names by unit there are some problems e.g. a couple of accidental deaths and at least two double entries: Slor Yehiel (18) in Vav Company and 1st Battalion; "Shoka" in Palyam and Palmach Headquarters. The total of named deaths by units appears (my count) to be 1085 with a high percentage after the Palmach was officially disbanded. I don't think the short-fall is because the names are not known. All the casualties on the 1945 naval operation are named as well as those who died fighting the Nazis, Vichy and the British prior to 1947 (I counted 70). More of a problem is the total listed by operations: which I make 432. All the same a very useful source that I look forward to working with. It would be good if you could feel the same about Walid Khalidi's work.
Padres Hana (
talk)
21:59, 18 September 2010 (UTC)reply
According to Zero000, the
Convoy of 35 is not a massacre because " soldiers killed in battle are not "massacred" ". So a humanitarian mission to a blockaded kibbutz (settlement, call it what you will), supported by 35 armed soldiers are ambushed by "hundreds of Arabs from a nearby training base" and killed and their bodies mutilated "beyond recognition" does not qualify as a massacre because it was during a 'battle'? By your logic,
Deir Yassin should not be considered a massacre and all of the massacres ought to be reconsidered in that light.
Ridingdog (
talk)
16:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)reply
It wasn't a humanitarian mission, it was a mission to reinforce the garrison. But that is irrelevant anyway, since an action against armed enemy soldiers in a war is not a massacre regardless of what they are up to. Deir Yassin is called a massacre because most of the dead were women and old men. The later massacre at Kfar Etzion is called that because the soldiers had surrendered. Neither case is similar.
Zerotalk00:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure how the photo of the Palmach members amongst the ruins came about but it would appear to be pure fiction. The Hebrew caption for the version of the picture in the Palmach archive is
אלבום: חטיבת הראל הגדוד הרביעי הפורצים יחידות המטה 5
תאור התמונה:
החבלנים בכפר הרוס
מופיעים בתמונה: למעלה ראשון מימין: יוסף אנוש, למטה שני מימין: מישקה נהוראי
מס' עמוד באלבום: 18
מס' תמונה: 9316
נתקבל מ: יוסף אנושי
I can't read Hebrew but Google translates the photograph description as "sappers destroyed village." Unless there is other evidence shouldn't that be what Wikipedia says?
Padres Hana (
talk)
18:05, 4 February 2017 (UTC)reply
Disagree. Not an Ashkenazi issue - transliterating guttral ח to English (which does not have the exact sound) is a complex issue - but "ch" tends to win (the alt. "h" system in Hebrew (without dotted h) gives up and just maps letter 8 to letter 8... and there is one "official" rule set here - there are several competing onea)... In terms of commin usage -
Google NGRAM - shows Palmach winning by some margin.
Icewhiz (
talk)
18:06, 1 August 2019 (UTC)reply
I will also note that the transliteration pdf you linked to uses dotted h - not plain h. Dotted h is also a common way of specifying ח - but it doesn't work with plain English chars. See
wiktionary on dotted h.
Icewhiz (
talk)
18:11, 1 August 2019 (UTC)reply