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This article has been created by copying the text from Overtoun House. As I'm uncertain how to properly attribute that I'm leaving this note here. Eric Corbett 23:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
According to the Times, "... more than 600 dogs jumped from it on to rocky ground almost 60ft below. In the past 70 years, between 50 and 100 dogs have been killed after leaping off Overtoun Bridge". This seems to suggest that most dogs survive the jump, or maybe that most of the incidents took place prior to 1945. Or maybe it's neither of those, and the article is mistaken. Anyone know? Open4D ( talk) 14:49, 20 July 2015 (UTC) hello — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.229.77.245 ( talk) 11:20, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
It's pretty clear from the photographs that the dense foliage at the end of the bridge would prevent a clear view of the ravine. If you were shorter than the height of the walls, there would be no indication at all that you were above ground level. 74.84.210.70 ( talk) 15:36, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Please discuss, Loonball5, why you keep reverting information that has no place in this article? Cassianto Talk 18:03, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Someone figured it out - the height of the paths changed. This changes the angle of deflection of wind coming into/exiting the valley which could create an occasional high frequency sound that draws the dogs off. 24.140.226.1 ( talk) 22:59, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I removed this paragraph
"Studies have shown that since the 1950s or 1960s an estimated 50 dogs have leapt from the bridge. Dogs that leap over the bridge parapet fall 50 feet (15 m) onto the waterfalls below. The only linking factors for this unexplained event are that dogs mostly jump from the same side of the bridge, in clear weather, and they are breeds with long snouts.[5]"
The article cited does not support the claim that there were "studies" Waughd ( talk) 00:41, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
I will not remove this section on my own, but I think for the most part all of this section is generally unsupported,and often with questionable references. It's clear that there have to be some reference to all the publicity (as that is real), maybe after "Overtoun Bridge has attracted international media attention because of the number of dogs who have reportedly leapt from it..." and include some of the notable references. But it seems clear that there is little evidence of the number of dogs jumping (which is anecdotal at best), and lots of folks that have ideas as to why the dogs are jumping. The "dog jumping" is really a fact that has not been established, so I'm not sure how theories on a non-established fact are relevant. Listing unsupported ideas for non established facts is not what wikipedia is for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Waughd ( talk • contribs) 01:13, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
I also think this part should be removed. Based on the reference, this event was probably true. But, I don't it's relevant. If it were, we would have a list of every person who jumped or pushed/threw someone off each bridge in the world. This is clearly not relevant to the article. If it had been a notable person, that could be relevant, or if the bridge truly had an abnormal number of people jumping off that might be worth adding. Waughd ( talk) 01:31, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
No Space looks like this
<- Note the space there.
Wyatt Tyrone Smith ( talk) 13:51, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
An anonymous IP recently re-added a rather obviously self-published work, with the edit summary of Please point to evidence of this
, “this” being the books self-publication. The book isn’t even in WorldCat (see
here). The “publisher” is a
dormant company, of only a couple years existence. The single name associated with the “company” is
the author.
Qwirkle (
talk)
12:55, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Not currently used in the article, putting it here for possible use The doggy bridge of sighs. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 06:22, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
This article. Man. This article's got some crunchy, I-came-out-of-nowhere, I-heard-someone-else-say-it, fuck-it-we'll-print-it-for-tomorrow, editorial-standards-who?-we're-the-Times numbers in it in regards to dogs and their jumping from said bridge. I'm determined to track down where all the following figures and details come from:
Thanks to a handy email from another editor, I've got my mitts on the full text of an article from The Times on this bridge, from 2015 - which mentions the '600 dogs' number, but doesn't mention where this number comes from, annoyingly. Let's go through it:
Spooked dogs leap to their deaths from haunted - Times, The (London, England) - June 26, 2015 - page 17
Michael Glackin
A Victorian bridge has been dubbed "Rovers' leap" after more than 600 dogs jumped from it on to rocky ground almost 60ft below.
"Rovers' leap" - where does this come from? The lead at the minute says it's been dubbed "Dog Suicide Bridge", but that doesn't have a source either; that addition dates back to this diff, which cites a Youtube video of Unsolved Mysteries. The video isn't available anymore; a brief look through the WayBack Machine here shows a relatively long description that cites "at least 50" dogs having died as a result of jumping off the bridge. (I did look for the episode in question; I couldn't find mention of Overtoun Bridge having been mentioned in an episode of Unsolved Mysteries.)
"Rovers' leap" also sounds like editorialising, and something pulled out of a tabloid headline, not an actual-factual switch-it-out name used by locals in anything more than passing.
The '600 dogs' quote mentioned in the first sentence isn't explained later in the article, either, it's just thrust in there.
In the past 70 years, between 50 and 100 dogs have died after leaping off Overtoun Bridge in the Scottish village of Milton, West Dunbartonshire. The phenomenon has left pet owners and locals baffled.
See, here's the thing. You've got between 50-100 dogs having jumped off this bridge since the 1950s, which leaves between 500 and 550 dogs having leapt off before that. This diff to Overtoun House cites the first reports of dogs jumping off Ye Olde Bridge having come in in 2005, citing this New York Times article published in 2019, which makes no mention of 2005.
Having done a Google search limiting dates to between 1998 and 2005, I've found a few - well, two - early mentions of Overtoun Bridge having a high number of dog fatalities, but they all date to 2005; maybe it's my poor Google-fu, but I couldn't find mention before then.
From 27 June 2005, we have this forum post that makes passing mention, with no sources linked before or after:
Postby gap74 » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:48 pm Is that the bridge that dogs were apparently throwing themselves over recently?? Am sure there was a thread about this strange phenomenon somewhere!
And more notably, from the 5 August 2005, we have this addition to the article Bridge:
* Overtoun Bridge, - Scotland, dogs have leaped to their deaths rom this bridge, leading to urban legends.
With no source. The subheading "Notable bridges" was taken out in December 2006, at which a point it still had no source. The section was moved to List of bridges, which then got moved to List of bridges in the United Kingdom#Scotland, where it still does not have a citation, though any mention of dog deaths has seemingly been removed, if it ever got ported over to begin with.
These are the only two mentions of Overtoun Bridge vis a vis dog deaths in 2005 that I could find; it doesn't seem likely that the latter Wikipedia addition was the source of later reporting, because there is no reporting from 2005 after this on this topic. It also doesn't explain the forum post before this - so clearly there's some report from or before June 2005 that makes mention of this, somewhere, which means the Wikipedia addition didn't come out of nowhere, it was added after someone had seen something. It would be really weird to make up that dogs jumped from one obscure bridge in Scotland after seeing a really obscure forum post on it. It doesn't read like griefing or vandalism at all. I have a feeling the source I'm looking for from this time may have been in a local tabloid, and for 2005, I highly doubt they would have web editions.
Post-2005, it seems media attention kicks up; here is that same Google search, now limited to between 1998 and 2006. All of a sudden, we have sources.
If I can find mention of any local tabloids or newspapers, then I may have something to chase up, in terms of archives and requests. It's looking like the best route, as no major newspaper mentions this bridge before 2005 in regards to dog deaths - even this article in The Herald from 1995, covering the case of a father unfortunately throwing his newborn son off the bridge, doesn't mention it, and that's in an article about a literal murder. You'd expect it to be mentioned as part of the morbidity, but it's not.
Going through the 2006 sources - a Daily Mail article (archived), a Guardian article (archived) and an article from The Express (archived slightly unreadably on archive.is, but seemingly it breaks the WayBack Machine). None make mention of 600 dogs, all make mention of about 50 dogs in the past 50 years. Let's go through them one at a time.
From the Daily Mail, 17 October 2006:
Other dogs have not been as fortunate. In the past half-century, some 50 dogs have leapt to their deaths from the same historic bridge. During one six-month period last year, five dogs jumped to their deaths. [emphasis added]
Okay, that's specific, and narrows it down from 50-100 to just 50; it also gives us a time period - the year before, 2005 - and a specific number of deaths - 5 - to focus on. We can assume that the forum post mentioned earlier was likely talking about this. Again, no mention of 600 dogs; I'm starting to think that's local tabloid legend.
In an attempt to solve a problem which has left many local dog owners so concerned, they will no longer walk their pets on the doomed bridge, a host of specialists converged on the west Scotland town earlier this year to investigate - and finally solve the mystery. [emphasis added]
That gives us more details; we know 5 dogs jumped off the bridge in a six-month period in 2005, and that in early 2006, a number of people visited the bridge with the express intention of investigating it. That gives us more local newspaper clues, because that'd definitely be picked up on.
I will say that this is a Daily Mail article. There's a reason it's deprecated, an example of which can be seen in the following sentence from the article:
A famous Austrian experiment has shown dogs can pick up on the thoughts and intentions of their owners from many miles away
Which is a reason we don't cite it anymore. I wouldn't cite it - it just gives me something to go on to see what else I can find.
At the end of the article, I think I've found the source of the epithet "Dog Suicide Bridge":
Dog Suicide Bridge is on Channel Five on Wednesday night at 8pm
And being in the UK, I may be able to track it down and watch it. Onto the next source, The Guardian, 19 October 2006:
In the past 50 years, it has claimed as many dogs, and there are sometimes spikes in the piteous graph of doggo-demise, like one six-month period last year, when a full five canines did a suicide leap.
Article topics in the UK get passed around newspapers like a spliff at a party; this article was written two days after the Daily Mail one, so it may just be parroting that claim. There's nothing else in the article on dog numbers and dates.
The next source, from the Daily Express, was published on the 12 October 2006:
Over the past 50 years, dozens of pets have inexplicably leapt to their deaths on a mysterious, haunted private estate.
Non-specific, but it's the first mention of dog deaths in a...reliable-enough source, so it's something. And again, it mentions:
The Dog Suicide Bridge will be shown at 8pm next Wednesday, October 18, on Channel 5.
And if Chekov's gun is real enough, that documentary is probably where I'll have to look.
So, what did we learn?
What did we not learn or figure out?
I'm gonna return to this later to figure out where these numbers come from. -- Ineffablebookkeeper ( talk) 18:14, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm a little tired at the minute, so I'm gonna jot down key parts of the Independent article in order to insert them at some other time:
Kelbie, Paul (4 March 2005). "Spate of canine 'suicides' from bridge baffles animal experts". The Independent. p. 15.
I'll write this up at some point when I'm not half-dead. Thanks again for the article, as I have no access to ProQuest; I wonder if there's anything else on there or not. -- Ineffablebookkeeper ( talk) 20:48, 16 November 2021 (UTC)