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The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 15:54, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Osteopathy → Osteopathy (alternative practice) – There is already an article called Osteopathic medicine in the United States. Its topic appears to be distinct enough to warrant a separate article, and equivalent in weight to the topic of this article. To avoid confusion, this article should be moved to an unambiguous location, and a disambiguation page should be created. Heptor talk 17:45, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
I am not able to find a specification, policy or general practice that edits may be reverted in order to keep lede and body text in the same topical order. I would like you to support your decision.
As I noted, I have found the present lay-out has created confusion, since non-USA readers read USA-specific information as applicable to non-USA osteopathy. To make statements that apply to only one form before the profound differences between forms has been stated is self-evidently potentially misleading, and subsequent sections continue to make statements that fail to make such distinctions.
As well as this poor presentation, there is a matter of WP:Worldwide balance. I understand that there may be, in a country in which a school of medicine preserves unscientific approaches, many people who wish to emphasise this - but elsewhere in the world this has no meaning. Moreover there appear to be many articles dealing specifically with USA-based "osteopathic medicine", and tags disambiguating the two. I think, therefore, that this article is intended particularly to deal with non-medical osteopathic manipulation as understood in most parts of the world.
I am prepared to re-order the entire article, but in this case a revert will be reported as prima facie bad-faith editing - I note this due to your initial failure to provide reasons for reverting, and to the inadequacy of your subsequent given reason. Thanks Redheylin ( talk) 20:29, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
The latest removal of a perfectly acceptable ref is surprising. I intend to return the ref per WP:BRD today, unless an acceptable justification per WP:PAG - Roxy the dog™ ( Resonate) 11:18, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
This has got to be the worst article I've seen on wikipedia. It doesn't contain even the slightest bit of information of the sort that someone looking up 'osteopathy' would presumably want: what does an osteopath do, and why? With what results? Instead all we have is a pointless catalogue of the names of organizations that regulate it in one country after another. What's the point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.45 ( talk) 16:59, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
Osteopathy ( Back to T:TDYK Article history ) ... that "the medical field of osteopathy had a rocky start, resulting in the harsh criticism and even arrest of early 20th century osteopathic doctors"? Reviewed: I still have to review another nomination and will post this here once it's done. Comment: History section of article expanded on March 10, 2017 5x expanded by Emarti84 (talk). Self-nominated at 19:29, 10 March 2017 (UTC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emarti84 ( talk • contribs)
I am concerned that this article is still unclear regarding its subject, Osteopathy, a pseudoscience, vs. Osteopathic medicine. I have done a bit of rewriting to correct some of the worst issues, but others remain which I do not have time right now to address. I do not believe this should be a DYK entry until these issues are corrected. RobP ( talk) 19:56, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Note that this discussion has been continued on the DYK nomination page here. RobP ( talk) 05:29, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
The history section is well written but it is unclear whether there were other major players in osteopathy beside Still. The section reads like a biography of Still since it discusses a single person. If osteopathy didn't change much after it began and he is truly the only person to influence it this is fine but should be made more apparent.
Zsmith7 ( talk) 12:25, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
@Zsmith7 Thanks for your comment! Still was the sole founder of osteopathy. I'll consider omitting the details of his bio since his wiki page is more suited to address that. However. I do think a background of Still and his developing philosophy is relevant to the history of osteopathy and is at least worth brief description. There were those who influenced Still, such as Andrew Davis, who is mentioned. Because Osteoapathy developed from a perspective of alternative medicine, it can be argued that many prominent figures of alternative medicine influenced its birth. Even so, the predominant figure in the history of osteopathy is Andrew Still. Emarti84 ( talk) 02:29, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi everyone, could we discuss the possibility of removing the sidebar "alternative medicine" and "pseudoscience" from the "Osteopathy" article? My reason is that when people want to learn about osteopathic medicine, a lot of times the google search bar suggests "osteopathy". "osteopathy" and "osteopathic medicine" are too close to be told apart by many people. Since "osteopathy" has the "Alternative medicine and pseudoscience" sidebar, it misleads many people into thinking that osteopathic medicine is pseudoscience. Also osteopathy is also used interchangeably occasionally with osteopathic medicine, so the sidebar "alternative medicine and pseudoscience is simply incorrect. Thank you for your consideration. Jing3094 ( talk) 03:04, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
I don't know if osteopathy and osteopathic medicine mean the exact 100% same thing. Probably not, but the overlap is large enough that to a laymen, they think they are close enough to be considered the same. If you insist that since there is a separate page where osteopathic medicine is explained as different from osteopathy, then why don't we at least switch the order of the countries and make United State the first country in the list. Or point out in this article early on that osteopathy might be different from osteopathic medicine, so that people are aware that these might be very different terms. Because I had to scroll down a long list to dig out a tiny piece of information that's the most relevant. If we moved "United States" to the top of the countries, people will get that piece of information faster, which helps with the efficiency of information distribution? Can we consider either moving United States to the top or adding (osteopathy is different from osteopathic medicine) early in the article? Thank you. Jing3094 ( talk) 22:59, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
I don't think Osteopathic manipulation should be merged with osteopathy. Because in D.O. schools they learn osteopathic manipulation in a evidence-based medicine format (as much as research results allow). So the modern concept of osteopathic manipulation is not alternative medicine or pseudoscience. If Osteopathy is different from osteopathic medicine, then osteopathic manipulation(which is part of osteopathic medicine) is different from osteopathy and should not be merged with it. Jing3094 ( talk) 23:06, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
If you are not yet willing to remove the label "alternative medicine and pseudo-science" from Osteopathy, I'm willing to look for more evidence and reference for you. Would you like me to look for more evidence? This decision should not be made solely on me believing it is not pseudoscience or you believing it is. It should be based on facts, not opinions. I'm asking if you'd like to see more evidence because I'm not very good at computer stuff and this is definitely the first time I edited anything on Wikipedia and I don't know anything about how these disputes should be resolved. So I just wanted to learn the steps of how things are done on here. Jing3094 ( talk) 23:12, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
The fact that even the editors of this page are confused by the terms "osteopathy, osteopathic manipulation, osteopathic manipulative medicine, and osteopathic medicine" just means that the reader can also be confused by these very similar phrases. So labeling any of these articles "alternative and pseudo science" just makes it that much easier to think all the other terms are associated with it as well. Jing3094 ( talk) 23:39, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jing3094 ( talk • contribs) 23:30, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
The concept of osteopathy cannot be completely separate from osteopathic medicine. Let's talk about osteopathic manipulation first. I am a medical student at a D.O school, and I don't believe that osteopathic manipulation works all the time. But extensive research is being done to find out how much of it is supported by evidence. There are some evidence that some components have therapeutic value and some don't. Therefore, I don't think osteopathic manipulation is alternative medicine or pseudoscience. Now let's talk about osteopathy. Frequently at school people use the word osteopathy, so I had no idea that "osteopathy" was different from "osteopathic medicine" untill I saw that there were two separate articles on Wikipedia. If a osteopathic medicine school used the terms interchangeably, I could only imagine a lay person confusing the two. Therefore, using the tag "alternative medicine and pseudo medicine" damages the reputation of osteopathic medicine and the descriptions are not even true. I hope you could consider keeping the terms "alternative medicine and pseudo medicine" out of this article. Thank you. Jing3094 ( talk) 17:07, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
I did a search on Pubmed, here are three examples of research articles supporting that osteopathy and OMT are different from placebo. There were many results and these are just some examples. Also, these articles does use the term Osteopathy when talking about treatments done by osteopathic physicians and OMT, which supports my statement that you cannot separate the term "osterpathy" from the field of osteopathic medicine. Maybe they are not equivalent, but they are used interchangeably in literature. You guys are Wikipedia editing experts, but please also try to look at the issue from the aspect of non-expert reader like me. Something is clear in the eye of the experts, doesn't mean it's not confusing to the rest. The words "alternative medicine" and "pseudo medicine" carry bias. You can say it is controversial, up to debate, but as evidence suggest in articles I'm citing here, osteopathy cannot be completely separated from the field of osteopathic medicine, and evidence supports that it is different from placebo.
I didn't meant to make bold edit. I just didn't know that to change anything on an article a consensus needed to be met. Sorry about that.
Here are the articles, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5426148/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28643968 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28532881
Thank you. Jing3094 ( talk) 17:35, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
The fact that one of the Search Key Words is Osteopathy and the articles talk about OMT performed by physicians is evidence that these terms are used in the same settings. And by "not high-quality", do you mean "not meta analysis"? Jing3094 ( talk) 18:07, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
The fact that one of the Search Key Words is Osteopathy and the articles talk about OMT performed by physicians is evidence that these terms are used in the same settings- no, that is anecdotal evidence at best, and violates Wikipedia's original research policy. -- bonadea contributions talk 21:21, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
"The concept of osteopathy cannot be completely separate from osteopathic medicine". True, so we shouldn't sanitise the former because of the hurt feelings of those involved in the latter. It would be a bit like removing the toxicity section from Foxglove because MDs don't want heart patients to know they were being treated with a deadly poison extracted from the foxglove. Moriori ( talk) 02:03, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
OK. I think I figured out where the problem is. The problems is that the word Osteopathy really has two components: 1) the alternative medicine that you guys are talking about, there are separate schools that teach just osteopathy and they don't call themselves osteopathic doctors. 2) osteopathic doctors also use the word osteopathy when they talk about osteopathic medicine-related stuff. Because from what I read in these journal articles, they do use the osteopathy to refer to osteopathic medicine. So for whatever reason, osteopathic medicine doctors and researcher use the word osteopathy to loosely refer to osteopathic medicine and osteopathic philosophy, but it is also true that osteopathy is also its own entity. Do you agree that it seems like osteopathy is used in both circumstances? After doing some more searching, I do agree with the statement that osteopathy has its own system, but I also couldn't deny the fact that osteopathic doctors use the word osteopathy in daily conversations and articles and they can't all be talking about the alternative medicine stuff. Opinions? Jing3094 ( talk) 03:02, 30 June 2017 (UTC) Jing3094 ( talk) 02:44, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Could some one remove the misleading bar, placed on the page by supporters of the Bastardy Sect Allopathy Gabirro ( talk) 11:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC).
The article says in the lede:
This is unsourced, and the equivalent statement in the body has been called out for a cite for several months. I find it dubious, not the least because it refer to a purported restriction "in the United States," when in fact, regulation of this type is done on a state-by-state basis. TJRC ( talk) 00:13, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
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Just wondered. Because all of this - "While the national health services of some countries consider there is "good" evidence for osteopathy as a treatment for low back pain and "limited evidence to suggest it may be effective for some types of neck, shoulder or lower limb pain and recovery after hip or knee operations", there is little, or insufficient, evidence that osteopathy is effective as a treatment for health conditions "unrelated" to the bones and muscles, "such as headaches, migraines, painful periods, digestive disorders, depression and excessive crying in babies (colic)"; an explicit reference to the claims of osteopathic manipulative medicine.[9] Others have concluded that osteopathic style manipulation "failed to produce compelling evidence" for efficacy in treating musculoskeletal pain.[10]" - is in the intro to this subject.
Sure it belongs in a section about criticisms of Osteopathy. But in the intro??? Do all medical and drug related articles have such heavily 'anti' introductions? Nope. So why does this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB05:45D:5B00:142C:68A3:5DE:EC77 ( talk) 20:06, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
The claim here is that the term "osteopath" is NOT applied to D.O.s (Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine (USA)). This is wrong. Further, the confusion between an osteopath and a D.O. should be a top priority here and it is badly fumbled. This article needs a statement at the top CLEARLY discriminating between Osteopathic MEDICINE and the pseudo-scientific practice of (traditional) osteopathy. It seems that this difference may not be meaningful in countries other than the USA, if not, then the article needs to be clear about that, too. 98.21.208.72 ( talk) 17:30, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
"For the American medical practice of osteopathic physicians in the United States, see Osteopathic medicine in the United States"at the beginning. I am going to disagree with that edit though, since there is no evidence in the article that
"Some countries mandate that osteopathic practitioners must be physicians or medical doctors"and it is absolutely not the case (as established in the article) that
"...a person without a medical degree is not allowed to call him- or herself an osteopath in the United States"or
Osteopaths in the United States are osteopathic physicians and practice the full scope of modern medicine.-- tronvillain ( talk) 22:04, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
The American Osteopathic Association and the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine recommend using the terms osteopathic physician (U.S.-trained only) and osteopathic medicine in reference to osteopathic medicine as practiced in the United States. What the language and limitations specified in state laws are is another question.-- tronvillain ( talk) 15:04, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Almost ten years ago an editor suggested adding a comparison between the two similar practices of Osteopathy and Chiropractic, but there was no response to that suggestion. I'm making it again. The Chiropractic article contains exhaustive and very helpful comparisons between the two as well as other forms of manual therapy. The same kind of comparison should be added to this article. Currently, it doesn't even contain the word "chiropractic" (or any word beginning with "chiro-") except in the Fringe Medicine sidebar. — 8.47.96.133 ( talk) 14:39, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Helpful in the sense that it notes that they're both pseudoscientific garbage that hurts people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.138.200.183 ( talk) 03:39, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
The OA account OA2020 is repearedly adding text to the article. [2] which appears to fail WP:V. What is going on? Alexbrn ( talk) 02:13, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Clearly all additions made have be cited materials, that are produced by independent and often government regulators. As such most are verifiable in making such editdecisions. Often deletions occur minutes after such additions, when reference materials wouldn't be able to be reviewed in that time. OA2020 ( talk) 02:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Students training to be an osteopath in Australia must study in an approved program in an accredited university. Current accredited courses are either four or five years in length. [1]
The whole page is titled "approved programs of study" as applied to osteopathy on a government regulators website OA2020 ( talk) 02:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
To be helpful I have added another citations to assist in building peoples understanding. I hope that is useful OA2020 ( talk) 02:38, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Maybe you can help me, would it be better for me to add another several dozen (cited) paragraphs on the regulation, accreditation and legislation surrounding the approved courses, and registration requirements to become an osteopath in Australia? OA2020 ( talk) 02:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
This is a secondary source - a government legislated health regulator...the same regulator who regulate medicine, nursing and about 10 other professions in Australia. OA2020 ( talk) 02:43, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
This is what i don't understand - the requirements for approved study, and how to become registered as a health practitioner in Australia is summary of that accepted knowledge. It is therefore useful (or not?) for people to understand that in Australia (unlike some countries) all osteopaths have to go thought a regulatory framework to reach registration and the ability to practice. If that simplified summary with links isn't enough, then surely a more in-depth info is acceptable to help summarise accepted process and understanding OA2020 ( talk) 02:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, the osteo Registration citation I added states this criteria: Online applications for general registration as an osteopath are available to: - final-year students that are due to complete within the next six weeks an Australian-approved program of study, or - graduates who have completed an Australian-approved program of study within the last 12 months, or OA2020 ( talk) 02:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
It appears some editors on this page remove cited information, linked to independent or government sources as they don't like the verified content. Often the cited content is removed within minutes, depite the citation being linked to 10-15 page documents so clearly there has not been a true review of the independent sources before delating or objecting. Likewise there appears several editors who try to remove any positive, verifiable citation and hark back to decades old resources of no relevance other than in a historical sense. OA2020 ( talk) 02:16, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Moriori, that one I understood and then re-edited the content as a summary, rather than a quote from the source. That wasn't really the deletions I was talking about so thanks for helping me to understand wiki better OA2020 ( talk) 04:49, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph to the osteopathy page has some inaccuracies. And I propose the changes as below:
1. The Forbes article by Salzberg that was referenced never mentioned osteopathy as "extra training in pseudoscientific practices" with regards to the statement regarding osteopathic training in medical school.
2. The statement: "Osteopathic medical schools also tend to be weaker than MD schools with regard to research and the understanding of scientific inquiry." is inaccurate. The author of this statement cited 3 studies. One is from 1987, this source is over 30 years old and cannot be used to compare osteopathic medical schools to allopathic medical schools in 2019. Another source stated that osteopathic research was lacking in the early and mid 20th centuries but there was no mention of other types of research lacking (in fields outside of osteopathy), therefore the comparison cannot be made to the counterpart MD schools. The third source cited a report from Abraham Flexner in 1910 who made this assertation.
3. Regarding the statement of Osteopathy in the Cranial field; the reference is to only 1 author who listed cranial osteopathy as pseudoscience in a blog post. Therefore, one can label it as pseudoscience using a generalization statement and placed in the introductory paragraph. I had originally moved the criticism of cranial osteopathy to the criticism section, specifically the paragraph regarding Stephen Barrett, the physician who wrote the blog posts.
The 3 above edits were reverted without explanation. The only reasons given were "fringe sources" and "whitewashing" without further explanation. Please be aware that you are responsible for your edits made using the Twinkle Javascript gadget and you are required to explain edits or reverts of edits. I am proposing the above changes to the article, please be aware. Golan1911 ( talk) 22:06, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
Hello. Thank you for the explanation. However, you did not address my second point above. I would still like to remove the statement comparing osteopathic medical schools to allopathic ones regarding "research and the understanding of scientific inquiry". Again, I have shown that the 3 sources pertaining to this statement are outdated by at least 30 years. I would also like to add that this statement is vague.
Thank you for changing the reference regarding my first point above, but I still propose to remove the statement regarding Osteopathy as "extra-training in pseudo-scientific practices".
I would also like to point out that the same author (Steven Salzberg) posted another article only 2 days after the original one (where he mentioned osteopathy as extra training in pseudo-scientific practices). In this article, titled "Second Thoughts on Osteopathic Medicine", Salzberg states:
"My post also included an implication that, because osteopathic medicine was founded in the 19th century by someone (Andrew Still) with some wacky ideas, that modern-day practice still included those ideas. I didn't write this explicitly, but the suggestion was there, and that was both unfair and inaccurate. Conventional medicine included all kinds of nutty practices in the past (bloodletting, for example), but it has moved on, as has osteopathy."
Golan1911 ( talk) 22:55, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I have tried making edits to the introduction about osteopathic medicine in the US to better reflect the statements in the citations. They have been reverted with a vague explanation.
There are two problematic statements:
this has been described as nothing more than "'extra' training in pseudoscientific practices"
This statement is the claim of one professor who is not in medicine 10 years ago. It's inclusion here, without allowing any cited counterpoints, is hardly appropriate.
"Osteopathic medical schools have been criticized as weaker in research than MD schools with regard to research and the understanding of scientific inquiry."
This statement remains uncited. It is, seemingly, original material and not appropriate per WP:OPINION.
The revised statement I inserted ("However, while some have described this as nothing more than "'extra' training in pseudoscientific practices,"., others acknowledge that it is less a part of the medical practice of an osteopathic physician and more a tribute to the legacy of osteopathy.") maintained the original quote while providing a cited counterpoint. In the cited article, the author writes:
In most osteopathic medical schools, osteopathy has been deemphasized to the point where it’s now, more than anything else, a historical vestige that continues to be taught more because of tradition than because of any continued enthusiasm for osteopathy
My counterpoint is a pretty straight paraphrasing.
The other issue with the inclusion of this in the intro at all is that this article is about osteopathy, not osteopathic medicine in the US. There's already an article about that topic. It's no necessary to have these details here. heat_fan1 ( talk) 18:18, 16 October 2020 (UTC)