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A news item involving October 2022 United Kingdom government crisis was featured on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the In the news section on 20 October 2022.
Flora Bowen (17 October 2022).
"Wikipedia adds separate page for Truss government crisis to avoid confusion with Johnson era". The Daily Telegraph. Dozens of changes had to be made to the page to keep pace with the news cycle, with users editing multiple times a day on the fastest-moving days in July to cover the wave of resignations made by ministers in that month, Owen Paterson's lobbying, the Partygate scandal, and Mr Johnson's subsequent departure.
Ellie Abraham (19 October 2022).
"There are now 2 Wikipedia pages for the '2022 UK government crisis'". Indy100. Helpfully, a Wikipedia volunteer editor named P.Wilkinson made sure users avoid confusion between the two scandals by adding a note to the top of the page titled '2022 United Kingdom government crisis'.
Matt Novak (20 October 2022).
"Wikipedia Tells Users to Be More Specific When Searching '2022 UK Government Crisis'". Gizmodo. Wikipedia editors have added a new landing page that asks readers to be more specific if they're searching for the "2022 United Kingdom government crisis." And it speaks to just how poorly things went for conservative Prime Minister Liz Truss, who resigned her post Thursday.
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
[[Liz Truss#Resignation|Resignation of Liz Truss]] The anchor (Resignation)
has been deleted.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors
Adding
Kwasi Kwarteng's firing/budget plan as a possible cause in infobox?
It seems like one of the causes was the budget he had planned to use, until it was mostly scrapped and he was fired. At least, its seems like the BBC broadcast thinks so.
TheCorriynial (
talk)
22:15, 19 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Infoboxes are used to summarise pertinent information from the article. If the article concluded that this was a cause, then there might be a case to add it to the infobox. --
DeFacto (
talk).
07:29, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I've just created a section regarding the lettuce. Just to check, I assume the Daily Star is not considered by Wikipedia to be a reliable source, despite being the primary source material?
ISD (
talk)
10:26, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
There is more than sufficient reliable coverage in secondary sources, which gives original credit to The Economist, and documents the global coverage outside the United Kingdom:
Rothwell, James; Badcock, James (2022-10-20). Crisp, James (ed.).
"How Liz Truss lettuce news became a global joke". Telegraph. Retrieved 2022-10-20. The stunt was inspired by a column in The Economist, which branded the Prime Minister, who has only been in power since last month, "the iceberg lady" with "the shelf-life of a lettuce". … Swedish television was the latest to draw attention to …
and various other international publications. So it might not be flattering, but the
WP:RS are there, although with lots of subtle references during TV/radio interviews. —
Sladen (
talk)
11:16, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
@
XxLuckyCxX:: Thanks for pointing that out. It would appear that
Special:Diff/1117076917,
Special:Diff/1117185621,
Special:Diff/1117186925 all removed "lettuce" content. All were made by the same editor. The third removal stated "per
WP:BRD take to talk for consensus to include", but did not open a discussion here on the article Talk: page, and has also not commented—which makes it difficult to know what the concerns might be, and therefore how to address any remaining concerns. —
Sladen (
talk)
12:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
For what it's worth now, this is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, not a satirical magazine or tabloid newspaper. Glorifying sensationalist ridicule is very unedifying. --
DeFacto (
talk).
12:47, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I can't imagine an acceptable way of including that sort of trivia in this article. Perhaps an article about sensationalist journalism would be the place for it? --
DeFacto (
talk).
12:57, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
@
DeFacto: per "I can't imagine an acceptable way of including that", that's perfect fine. Perhaps in the mean time other editors can be left to restore the original wording and
WP:RS citations—which does not need any imagination and already existed in the article (in several variations). —
Sladen (
talk)
13:04, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
That's only if we have a reasonable reason to include it in the first place, which, as far as I can tell, we do not. See
WP:ONUS for more guidance on this. --
DeFacto (
talk).
13:11, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't think The Economist has let anyone down. The Truss government, on the other hand, has been an international embarrassment and a complete shambles. Lettuce or no lettuce.
205.239.40.3 (
talk)
13:31, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
As far as the events are concerned, we should add in the lettuce (or make a new section titled "Parodies/political satire in relation to the crisis", seeing that there have been so many memes about it.)
Orbitingelectron (
talk)
03:06, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
it doesn't matter , its not relevant really to the subject, there has been memes about lots of other things, maybe add it to the meme section? also a lettuce has a shelf-life of around 21 days so how its not even accurate, its just labour supporters being trolls as usual
92.30.245.77 (
talk)
04:20, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Not really. If you discount the 10 days of mourning for the Queen and the days after the mini budget when she was trying to survive, she only lasted for about a week.
Orbitingelectron (
talk)
02:15, 25 October 2022 (UTC)reply
We don't know exactly what was said or what was meant, which is why we need to err on the side of caution. It is not our place to try to interpret unclear meanings. --
DeFacto (
talk).
13:01, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
To link it to anything would be SYNTH. We do not know exactly what was meant. It's like linking ambiguous phrases in verbatim quotes are discussed in
MOS:LWQ. --
DeFacto (
talk).
13:07, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
The Guardian says: "It was because of all the mayhem over whether it was a confidence vote or not. ... Another said it was nothing as dramatic as that there was just "lots of confusion" about whether it was a confidence vote or not." That was the situation. But we still need to link to the thing over which there was confusion.
205.239.40.3 (
talk)
13:24, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
All links to motions of no confidence or votes of no confidence should be removed as they do not reflect what is actually meant by confidence vote. the Traditional meaning which is what is linked implies that this was a vote to oust someone from power. What a confidence vote meant in this context is that the whip would be removed from anyone that doesn't vote in line with party procedure. as such any links here are inaccurate. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
95.152.219.34 (
talk)
14:09, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
No consensus Editors in favor of a merge argue that the article has little content beyond the main subject and it is too soon to know whether this article will have significant expansion. Editors opposed to a merge argue that this follows the scheme of the July crisis and already has implications beyond Truss's premiership. Most editors are opposed to the merge and it is unlikely that a consensus will form soon especially given the differing positions on how the future will play out. Better to revisit these questions in a few weeks when more information is available. —
Wug·a·po·des19:48, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I agree with the merge, as it seemed like the obvious thing to do to me. There seems no point having this article now, when the other one can cover it with space to spare. --
DeFacto (
talk).
13:52, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Although I agree with the merge as the article "Premiership of Liz Truss" is going to remain pretty short lol, I also agree that a discussion needs to be opened and that this has not been adequately merged.
Arcahaeoindris (
talk)
14:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Merge This "crisis" (not called that by any sources) lasted all of one day. Now that Truss has resigned, neither this nor the main article would be getting much longer and all content can and should go there. The sections are already largely duplicative and there is no need for a split.
Reywas92Talk14:32, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
The CNBC article's title refers to an escalation of the existing crisis, the AP article refers to what was triggered by the economic package last month, and the Vox article also refers to the mini-budget crisis but fine. The events of the last few days are an extension of the the crisis that the entirety of Truss's premiership has been, rather than a stand-alone "October crisis", and this is best described in the main premiership article rather than separately and duplicatively.
Reywas92Talk14:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't think the word "crisis" is really appropriate. It's used widely within political commentary for effect, but it's not really a constitutional or insertional crisis - it's more a crisis within the Conservative Party which has obviously had big consequences for the people as they are in Government.
SW1APolitico (
talk)
09:33, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment - There was discussion on the
September 2022 United Kingdom mini-budget talk page about spinning off a political ramifications article (discussion
here) which would include the sacking of Kwarteng, appointment of Hunt, reversal of most of the mini-budget - and now Braverman's resignation, the fracking vote, and Truss's resignation.
WJ94 (
talk)
15:34, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
It doesn't matter what happened. What matters in terms of the encyclopedia is what's covered in reliable sources. ~
TPW18:38, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose By that logic, it should be merged just because it *happened* when she was the Prime Minister? Okay, well I was not trying to be mean, anyways I respectfully oppose.
Some random serbian (
talk)
17:16, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Strongly Oppose: Should not be merge for consistency with articles of previous PMs, ease of user navigation. Earlier signs also suggest that this topic in itself will remain notable to support separate articles.
Spilia4 (
talk)
17:22, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Merge This is so closely related to the article on the premiership, it really only needs a stand-alone article if something like
WP:LENGTH or
WP:UNDUE mandates a split. This is not excessive text to need to be its own article, and the text can all be comfortably and naturally part of the Premiership article, it is functionally the most important part of her premiership, so the fact that it would be a sizable part of the article is also not a
WP:UNDUE issue. --
Jayron3218:25, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Merge The topic of this article does not carry any notability which is independent of Truss' premiership. No source that conveys notability on the crisis that brought down Truss' government does not also convey notability on Truss' government itself.
JayAmber (
talk)
20:25, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - This is a distinct and deeply covered political moment that implicates the entire Tory party in its scope - it exceeds the bounds of simply discussing Truss' premiership, and focussed coverage of the actions of other party members in the proceedings would not be appropriate within an entirely Truss-centric article.
BlackholeWA (
talk)
20:42, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose The crisis may have been caused by Truss' premiership, but it has been unleashed on us all: it already implicates Braverman, Hunt, that ruckus in the Commons, possibly Boris, and a 60p lettuce. It's more than Truss' premiership; even if you don't agree so, well, the crisis will likely persist through her resignation, the leadership election, and Hunt's (or whomever's) budget, the unfortunate next PM's early days (if not longer) ... perhaps it's too early to call all that, but then by default it would also be too early to call merging this article.
Kingsif (
talk)
21:05, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Braverman and Hunt are part of the
Truss ministry, and their participation is intimately tied to her premiership. The "ruckus in the Commons" was due to Truss's leadership or lack thereof on the vote. It was too early to call to make this article in the first place.
Reywas92Talk22:58, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Merge the 'crisis' is already discussed plenty in Truss's premiership article or the mini-budget article and does not have enough information on its own to warrant an article. This article really just contains background on the mini-budget, the lettuce, and opinion polling - hardly enough information for an article.
Yeoutie (
talk)
22:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose There exists precedent from other similar crises and their own pages to show that this should not be merged. While it was one of the most significant periods within the premiership, its scope extends well beyond this and could be argued is more relevant to the Party than the premiership. On the note of this article being too short, I think that that's a bit premature to say on an article discussing a current event.
Moonwater21 (
talk)
00:03, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose as the event is distinct from the tenure, her tenure includes events other than the crisis (notably the death of the Queen), maintaining consistency between articles on similar subjects (see
July 2022 United Kingdom government crisis) is important for disambiguation and because the crisis will not be over with her departure.
Espatie (
talk)
00:18, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Strongly oppose. As others have cited earlier, this does not EXCLUSIVELY involve Liz Truss but rather the government hence a "government crisis" and not a "Liz Truss crisis". Also, according to
WP:Merge the topic should meet the
notability guidelines which this topic does.
Raymond Kestis (
talk)
00:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose as the crisis goes far beyond Truss herself; it represents a fundamental collapse of the structure of British government, originating from the crisis of identity within the Conservative Party and magnified by the total shitshow of the post-Brexit, post-Ukraine-occupation, post-Covid economy. Truss' premiership was a symptom, not the underlying malady. —
The Anome (
talk)
07:55, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose merge - The crisis is now notable in itself, far beyond just Truss's premiership/resignation and includes the financial instability caused by the mini-budget, the events leading up to Truss's resignation and possibly the events of the forthcoming leadership election. Also, even for those who think this material will just duplicate other articles (i.e.,
Premiership of Liz Truss,
September 2022 United Kingdom mini-budget and
October 2022 UK Conservative Party leadership election),
WP:SPINOFF would allow us to do this. The mini-budget article is already very long and I think a lot of the reaction material could be summarised and the full details migrated to this page. Also, plenty of sources are now calling this a crisis:
[1],
[2],
[3],
[4] just from the first few pages of a Google News search.
WJ94 (
talk)
09:08, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose merge - Eventually this might be appropriate - but right now the crisis is not just Truss, but her successor and how they fix the issues caused. In the unlikely event that current issues are stabilised promptly with the selection of a new tory leader then it should be. However it is currently unknown if, and highly likely, there will still be a crisis due to the perceived lack of legitimacy of 3rd PM since an election. I'd suggest we let the dust settle before deciding -
Natet/
c10:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose merge. I was undecided about this but on balance I think it should be left as-is for now. The UK has been in a political crisis for most of this year and that won't change anytime soon. Eventually it's possible that this and
July 2022 United Kingdom government crisis could be merged into a single article which also includes whatever happens between now and the end of the year. It's a developing situation so probably best not to rush and make changes that might eventually need to be undone when we have a fuller picture.
Neiltonks (
talk)
14:02, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose merge - We still don't know if its entirely over, being the current "election" in the party, potential of further crises related due to the election (i.e Boris Johnson returning?) and the unpopularity of the party in the public.
TheCorriynial (
talk)
15:06, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Merge- Merging this article with the premiership of Liz Tuss would provide a more fluid research experience to people in the future when this event is not so strongly etched in public memory ( say 10-15 years down the line ) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Alexandria Bucephalous (
talk •
contribs)
04:03, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
There's such thing as
hatnotes which guide users to other topics of interest or other related pages. Any user searching for the info on the other page will be easily redirected to here. Keivan.fTalk06:25, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose merge as the event's ongoing. Let's revisit this again in a few months when all of this is hopefully history and we can look at it all with perspective.
This is Paul (
talk)
09:45, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose merge. While Liz Truss' entire premiership has been the one long government crisis, the current crisis seems unlikely to end after her successor is chosen. Therefore the scope of this article is likely to widen in future.
gbrading(
ταlκ)16:41, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Merge per
WP:OR/
WP:SYNTH/
WP:POVFORK as the details covered in the article do not define an event that the consensus amongst reliable sources agrees is a "government crisis". Wikipedia should follow the sources and not try to invent things that do not exist in the literature. This is an encyclopaedia, not a leftist tabloid or satirical blog and any credible info in this article can be better and more NPOVedly absorbed into the "
Premiership of Liz Truss" article.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Comments
COMMENT I see this merge discussion closed as "no consensus". It seems there is a consensus, to "not merge" ? That would be different from not having a consensus. --
65.92.244.114 (
talk)
19:56, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I agree with the IP. Far too many discussions (of all kinds, not just merge discussions) are closed as "no consensus" when it is abundantly clear the proposal, whatever it is, has been roundly rejected. My best guess is that some closing editors choose "no consensus" as a way to placate the losing faction: "let's agree to disagree" as it were. Even when we really should conclude the discussion by clearly stating one viewpoint carried the day and the other was rejected. We actually did reach a consensus here. It was to reject the idea to merge the article.
CapnZapp (
talk)
10:52, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
The opposition was generally quite weak---based largely on
speculation about how the event might grow larger---whereas the support tended to articulate
established reasons for merger and
the notability guideline on breaking news. There was sufficient opposition to prevent the formation of consensus, but not enough to completely overcome the weight of merging guidelines. Based on my experience with articles on recent events, I doubt the opposition would have been so numerous if not for the high viewership. Roughly 1-in-7 participants have fewer than 100 edits, and they skew towards opposition. I saw no consensus (rather than consensus against) because the outcome seemed heavily biased by external political factors rather than our editorial guidelines. A new discussion, once it's out of the news cycle, will give a better sense of consensus and give more time for the predictions of both sides to actually play out, allowing us to make a more informed decision with minimal need for speculation. —
Wug·a·po·des21:56, 25 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Please resolve: "opposed" vs. "won" vs. "against"
Could someone please resolve this, from the Parliament section:
The motion was opposed, and easily won by the government, with a majority of 96 against it.
It was a Labour motion, so it was opposed successfully by the government, with a majority of 96. 'Against it' is unnecessary.
GedUK16:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Perhaps it could be more clearly written, e.g. “The motion was successfully opposed by the government with a large majority of 96 against it.” ? It all seems like too much detail to me, but someone who wants it can try a rewrite. Cheers
Markbassett (
talk)
20:30, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Scope of this article
Can I just clarify the scope of this article? I understand it to be everything which led up to Liz Truss's resignation excluding the mini budget, which has its own article.
Am I also right in thinking that the scope of the article may extend beyond Truss's resignation if the crisis is perceived to continue?
A.D.Hope (
talk)
21:55, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I think the answer to the latter part of your question would be yes. The mini-budget fiasco is part of the background, the dismissals and resignations are what 'officially' started it all, and if the situation persists this page should continue to cover the subsequent events (if they don't merit their own pages, so we shall wait and see). Keivan.fTalk22:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)reply
This is always going to happen with an article on a newsy topic. You get frantic bouts of editing and plenty of bad, careless or unencyclopaedic writing – alongside, however, the development of some really excellent content which will have a longer life. If you hate it right now my advice would be to not worry about it for a while then look back once the dust has settled when, with luck, you will find something much more stable and well-written. And with luck some editors will want to stay and will hone their writing skills, so although it is a rocky road there is a net benefit. Best to all,
DBaK (
talk)
17:11, 25 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Credit ratings and calls for a general election
The reduction in the UK credit rating was clearly due to the crisis following the mini-budget. Calls for a general election happened for a long time but were intensified during the crisis. I feel both should be in the article.
Proxima Centauri (
talk)
11:15, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
As they stand, these additions add no value to the article. The credit ratings piece does not give the context or reasons for their inclusion in relation to the subject of the article. Calls for an election have been made several times a day for months, if not years, by opposition party members - what's so special about these calls to give them appropriate
dueness to add here? For those reasons I do not support these additions. --
DeFacto (
talk).
13:03, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Trussonomics is another reason why Liz Truss resigned. The poor handling of the UK's economy. Trussonomics is having a major effect on the economy of the United Kingdom.
Hsija (
talk)
15:12, 25 October 2022 (UTC)reply