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WhiteC 20:53, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
stevesawalker —Preceding undated comment added 06:01, 3 May 2009 (UTC).
If you want some help, I can write something on the Nicomachean Ethics. Let me know - TM
Different sections are being put in now, or edited. I'm still using this list (thanks for helping, Tom) to do it, but I'm a pretty slow writer. I'm still not sure which sections will lead into which other ones. I suspect different bits will get reordered as they are completed. IF ANYONE WANTS TO WORK ON A SECTION FEEL FREE TO JUMP IN. WhiteC 00:34, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I had a note on this page. On the last section there is the quote, "Every art and every inquiry, and similarly every action and pursuit, is thought to aim at some good; and for this reason the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim. - 1094a (Book I, Ch. 1)." While this is an important quote, it is also logically shaky. I think there should be some sort of acknowledgement of this fact.
In the article, I added the bekker number for the quote you wrote in, so that people can find the quote if they have a copy of the Nicomachean Ethics. - Tom M
I've just created a stub on Bekker numbers - I'd be interested to find out exactly why they're called 'Bekker', I've always assumed it was the name of the editor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekker_numbers Tom M 01:02, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I see someone added stuff (from the Aristotle article?) into a section called 'Discussion' in the article. That was a very confusing title, since I consider this to be the discussion section. Although the material is good, in my opinion it needed better organization; the subtitles weren't very helpful either. I made some minor modifications to it, but so far just in the section names. WhiteC 16:12, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In the section "The essence and function of being human", there is a quote attributed to Aristotle: "Now we take the human’s function to be a certain kind of life, and take this life to be the soul’s activity and actions that express reason. Hence the excellent man’s function is to do this finely and well. Each function is completed well when its completion expresses the proper virtue. Therefore the human good turns out to be the soul’s activity that expresses virtue."
This does seem to reflect Aristotle's opinions pretty well, but I can't find the quote in the NicEth--not in Book I, Ch 7 anyway, which is where I would expect it to be. Does anyone know where it comes from? If we can't find it in a week, I'll replace it. WhiteC 20:41, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The first para (of this section), some preliminary sentences to explain the quote better--feel free to comment, or give suggestions for developing this idea...
People have the ability to reason, which makes us different from animals, and so good or virtuous people should use this reasoning ability well. <need an explicit definition of virtue/arete or a link to it somewhere too, perhaps in a section before this one> WhiteC 02:34, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Can someone more versed in Aristotle help me out here? Obviously it helps if any new quotes have some reference to where they came from (any reference is better than none), but ideally...
What is the appropriate method for referring to a quote? The Bekker number is precise, and I want to keep the book and chapter numbers in so that people unfamiliar with Bekker numbers will have a better idea where to look. Should each quote mention the translation too (if we know it), or is it enough to just list different translations at the bottom of the article? WhiteC 22:55, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I cut this out of the Essence and function of being human. I'm pasting it in here in case it comes in useful in some other part of the article. "Only through man's ability to recognize and accept his own attributes and limitations can any one man excel. The measure of a man is not to be found according to the abilities useful to peers or a particular society/culture; rather, one could argue that a man can only be excellent when the internal activity is fully understood. Aristotle’s virtue cannot be achieved through habit; a person cannot just be virtuous for one day, for to be such would imply an internal contradiction between natural thoughts and the urge to conform one's natural pattern to one determined by others." WhiteC 04:05, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Aristotle's father and his son were both called Nicomachus. The article states that "The Nicomachean Ethics were either edited by or named after Aristotle's son." A later paragraph states that this is only a supposition, since the work itself does not contain any reference to a Nicomachus.
I removed the comment that the works may refer to Aristotle's father rather than his son, because it seems unlikely and I have seen no historical arguments to support this view. The NicEth was based upon lectures given by Aristotle at the Lyceum (Aristotle's academy where he taught). Aristotle's son was head of the Lyceum while the NicEth were being compiled, so other members of the Lyceum may have dedicated the work to him if he was not an editor himself. Aristotle himself did not compile these lectures, and did not refer to his father in any of his philosophical works (as far as I know). WhiteC 09:39, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thumbs up to WhiteC for his good work on this article :). Thue | talk 19:28, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to leave a brief note here saying that I was surprised to come across such an extensive, well-written article on the Nicomachean Ethics. The people on this page have done excellent work. -- Todeswalzer| Talk 17:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks for putting this in, Arcadian. Particularly the links the Perseus project.
What follows is some changes I will probably put in, which are relatively minor (compared to getting the order in in the 1st place), but feel free to yell if you disagree with any of them. I'm not sure whether books 2 thru 6 (various types of virtue) each merit individual sections--I think there should be an overview of virtue in general, and then perhaps subsections under that. Book 2 is moral virtue only. Book 10 should be divided into pleasure, then politics. Book 7 should be divided into evil, then pleasure (which Aristotle inconveniently put into 2 separate areas of the Ethics). WhiteC 06:32, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The eudaimonia article had, as a part of it, a list of bullet points which summarized how to achieve eudaimonia according to Aristotle's ethics. I copied in some of the arguments from it.
Note that some parts were not directly related to eudaimonia, and were more related to Aristotle's ethical arguments generally. Some parts have gone into "The essence and function of being human", others into "Eudaimonia" (which was split off from the former section which was getting quite long), and other parts have gone into different sections of the article (such as intellectual virtue).
WhiteC 20:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I moved the general information to a new article on Aristotelian ethics. It makes more sense to have this be a subset of that, a more general topic that includes Aristotle's other works and ideas on ethics. Uriah923 05:05, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
In regards to the previous paragraph, Aristotle actually defines Eudamonia (Happiness) as "an activity of the soul, in accordance with virtue, and if there are many virtues, with the highest and most complete virtue." (Nichomachean Ethics I.7) Therefore, happiness is by definition living in accordance with the virtues. Luck has no bearing on happiness whatsoever. If you are researching on the Nichomachean Ethics, go somewhere else, this is NOT a good resource. Most of the above information is incorrect. Krizaz 01:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Quick thought on my edit: I deleted the word luck. The Greek word used is τυχή which is not precisely the same as luck, since it refers more specifically to a fortunate birth (i.e. being born to well-off, noble parents — and, thus, on the right side of fate). Maybe I'm nitpicking too much, though, so feel free to revert it. Ig0774 07:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Very minor tidbit, I changed the parenthesized (e.g. we desire food because we want to be healthy) to (e.g. we desire money because we want to buy other things). I think the money example illustrates most clearly that what one would want for the sake of something else. Heath of the body has a much closer affiliation with ultimate happiness, and by some could be viewed as something to be desired for itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.162.219.140 ( talk) 22:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Since it is an editorial comment, added by IP 69.69.80.89, I've removed the following text from the article and copied it here for discussion:
I think there may be some merit the the anon's argument, but I am not an expert on the Ethics. Did Aristotle write that wisdom was the mean between ignorance and excessive knowledge seeking? Can the claimed Aristotelian quote: "not every action nor every passion admits a mean." be sourced?
Paul August ☎ 21:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I have an issue with the following:
"The excellent archer will find the mean between the two extremes when trying to hit the target, and he will not aim with force in excess like Machiavelli states to do in his book The Prince, “Let him act like the clever archers who, designing to hit the mark which yet appears too far distant, and knowing the limits to which the strength of their bow attains, take aim much higher than the mark, not to reach by their strength or arrow to so great a height, but to be able with the aid of so high an aim to hit the mark they wish to reach.” A follower of Aristotle will seek to find the mean in every action whether it deals with pleasure, honor, or expression of reason because they will understand that virtue is a mean. In order to seek the good they must also use reason as a guide to seek the virtue/mean."
The author of this paragraph misinterprets Machiavelli. Machiavelli does not suggest an excess of force, like using a cannon to knock down a straw hut. This particular passage reflects Machiavelli's beliefs that we often fall short of our aims, just as an archer falls short of a distant target. Machiavelli suggest that to correct for this tendency by aiming to use excessive force, as this will result in moderate and appropriate force.
Also, the rest of the paragraph is redundant in light of the rest of the article, and the example of the archer is not particularly illustrative.
24.17.211.229
03:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Peter Comerford
I think it should be mentionned that the two accounts of pleasure found in EN is an argument that parts of EE (Ethics to Eudem) were copied within EN. Richard Bodeus, for example, in the latest French edition of EN (GF Flammarion) argues for this opinion.
Can the epithet 'golden' be dropped from references to 'the mean' in this article? It suggests that Aristotle invented/used such a terminology where he does not - 'golden' is a later addition to the concept. 82.32.198.119 ( talk) 18:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Can we work on a full summary of all the books? For example book 1 is only summarized up to chapter 6. Dirtbike spaceman ( talk)
Yes, I think that is the aim.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, that is the aim, right now, for book one at least, there isn't a summary of the chapters, there is just a really lame overall views of the central ideas. Dirtbike spaceman ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added on 20:40, 24 February 2009 (UTC).
Yes, the article needs work. I have not had time recently myself, but it definitely needs work.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
There appear to be a couple of errors in the section on 'Friendliness'. First, the mean is given as 'philia'. It surely is not philia, else Aristotle would have called it that. Instead he states that the mean has no name (though it resembles friendship). Second, the mean is supposed to require, "Sometimes being able to share in the pleasure of one's companions at some expense to oneself, if this pleasure not be harmful or dishonorable." I cannot find any basis for this in the Nicomachean Ethics, even reading between the lines. Kinsaku —Preceding undated comment added 21:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC).
Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately I don't have the Loeb edition, but I do find that reference surprising: Aristotle devotes two entire chapters to friendship (philia) elsewhere in the same book and it clearly isn't the same thing. I don't think Aristotle meant that there is no exact word for the virtue, only the less precise 'philia'; he meant that they had no word for it at all - including philia - just as they had no word for the mean between ambition and unambitiousness. Hopefully, I've convinced you to take it out.
You have provided the source for the point I questioned. I think I see where you draw support from: "He will...refuse to acquiesce in a pleasure that brings any considerable discredit or harm to the agent if his opposition will not cause much pain". The implication being that if his opposition does cause much pain then he will acquiesce in the pleasure.
I believe the 'agent' in question, though, is not the 'Aristotelian agent' but the person enjoying the pleasure. Ross translates it:
"...if his acquiescence in another's action would bring disgrace, and that in a high degree, or injury, on that other, while his opposition brings a little pain, he will not acquiesce but will decline"
The italics are actually there in the Oxford edition. So it reads that if someone else's enjoyment is highly disgraceful and opposition to it brings only a little pain, the virtuously 'friendly' person will oppose it.
I personally don't think it is worth salvaging anything from the original point and would just remove it.
Best regards Kinsaku —Preceding undated comment added 12:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC).
Thank you Andrew - I hadn't understood it. I see your point about philia having been used in the 'pre-discussion' in Book 2; I hadn't realised that, and I can see why you faithfully reproduced it here. Your amendment would normally be a fair compromise, which I should like to accept. However, the fact remains that in the actual discussion of 'friendliness' Aritotle states that the mean has no name and explains how 'friendliness' is different from 'friendship' (the subject of Books 8&9):
"But to [the mean of friendliness] no special name has been assigned, though it very closely resembles friendship [philia]. It differs from [philia] in not possessing the emotional factor of affection for one's associates..." [From the section you referred me to.]
The Wiki article goes on to acknowledge this. So I'm afraid that stating philia as the mean in the heading will just confuse the reader. I will make the slightest of changes to your amendment, which will make it quite agreeable, but I will not argue if you change it back.
You didn't respond to my second point about "sharing in the pleasure of one's companions at some expense to oneself". I hope I've said enough to persuade you to remove that bullet; in the light of what I have said I can't see any support for it.
Many thanks for the discussion, and for producing a great resource. I shall bow out for now and allow other readers to comment if they would like to see things changed. Best regards Kinsaku —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.70.231 ( talk) 12:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone have a good source on the date or time in Aristotle's life when Nicomachean Ethics were written. The article is blank on this and I think it would be a useful addition to the article. What do scholars say? N2e ( talk) 19:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Remarks on this talk page show that others must surely agree with me that this article needs a lot of work. But probably like me others find it difficult to start, because there is already a lot of material, not all of which is all that bad, but it is such a hopeless state of mixed up confusion that in the end a lot of it will need to be removed, if only in order to avoid "keeping bits of the old" becoming a major distraction to the higher priority of making the best possible article. Massive deleting is not a nice thing to do, and is likely to get reactions from people assuming arrogant intentions. So in order to help I am setting up a draft at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Andrew_Lancaster/Drafts/Nicomachean_Ethics. I invite others to work on it also. It means we can work on big blocks without shocking people too much, hopefully.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:47, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
In the case of Book VI, which was virtually undiscussed, I have of course edited directly into the article. Something is better than nothing.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 14:54, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
We are approaching 100kb and I want to mention before anyone gets too critical about it that this article will eventually need to be compressed and split in some way. I would suggest that some areas of Aristotle's thinking deserve their own articles, or perhaps major sections within existing articles such as Justice, Happiness etc, but:
Hope that makes sense.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:29, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Aristotelian Ethics is probably also an article which needs a lot of work and could eventually take some weight off of this article (thus also allowing the Eudemian Ethics to be handled better).-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 13:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
In addition to eventually using Aristotelian Ethics to take some of this material, maybe the creation of a Justice (Aristotle) article is justified?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 12:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Remark on how this is working: first attempts to complete a skeletal summary, which has long been the basic implied structure of this incomplete article, are always long, so as I do each section the size goes up but then later often starts to go back down. Finding ways to compress and split Aristotle neutrally takes time to do without creating problems. So as a rough guide I am telling myself to stay under 150kb in the first round, and then to aim later at getting it back under 100kb. (See WP:SPLIT.) Tertiary sources are also a desirable aim eventually, which may actually help to find ways to compress and split in some cases, but while some are already being used here and there the skeleton comes first. I remain to other ideas of course, but for now seem to be working on this more or less alone, so I just record my ideas for everyone.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Finally I have a relatively neutral, but primary-source dominated, skeleton, which is about 125k. That is theoretically a bit big for one article, but it is to be hoped that this structure now allows the introduction of more secondary and tertiary source material, that might help compress in places, basically I think by identifying themes and trying to reduce repetition. (I have avoided doing that fairly rigorously because of WP:SYNTH.) For those not familiar with the problem however, many if not every such attempt by commentators to bring together and synthesize concerning similar-looking, repetitive-looking parts of what Aristotle said can be accused of changing what he said, because it is often said that his way of building up positions is part of his message so to speak. There are also so many interpretations of him. This is in a sense one of the oldest big systematic works in the whole western tradition of scholarship leading up to today and nobody ever stopped writing about it. What I've been doing in practice though is inserting other sources already when I think one would fit non-controversially. It would be interesting at this point in the work to ask if anyone is watching this, and whether my on-going ideas make sense.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 14:08, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
<moved from above> Just a small point about the article's reference to the inscription at the Delphic Oracle in the section on the Golden Mean. You suggest that it says "nothing to excess" but I always thought it said "Know thyself". Which is correct? RS
From a user talk page:
Copy of discussion do not edit in this box |
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== How would you pronounce Nicomachean? ==
I would be interested in your opinion. I know Greek does sometimes get strangely Anglicised (I have included mention of such a pronunciation in the Nous article), but I do not think I ever heard anyone say the "i" in Nicomachus or Nicomachean anything like the way the brand "Nike" is pronounced, only the way people say "Nicholas", i.e. something like the original Greek. But the first line of Nicomachean Ethics has a source for such a diphthong pronunciation. (I wonder if the source really mentions the Ethics or just gives a general remark that Greek I often becomes "ai".) Is this something people say in American academia?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 10:32, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
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So I would like to call for remarks. Obviously sometimes good sources can be wrong, and we do not have to use them. On the other hand I do not even know if the source is being used correctly.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 20:12, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
I have made an example of this in the section marked 4.4.8 Being Witty or Charming. I find this format to be much more pleasing and easier to understand, and I am not an incredibly intelligent person, so that's saying something. If anyone has the time, please go and reformat the rest of the examples. I think it makes these concepts much easier to understand from a visual learning standpoint. Feel free to fix the error I made by leaving part of the graph jutting out, or leave it in the rest of the examples, I honestly don't care. My thanks will go to anyone who takes up this little task of mine, I'd do it myself but I just don't have the time or knowledge to make them aesthetically pleasing.
Signed,
Diligit scientiam (LB) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.96.67.86 ( talk) 04:47, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree that the mean should be situated between the deficiency and excess as outlined in 4.4.8 although I am not quite sure how to make that formatting change. I'd be happy to take that on if someone could explain to me how to do it.
Wikiriker ( talk) 16:26, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
"In chapter 11 Aristotle goes through some of the things said about pleasure and particularly why it might be bad, but in chapter 12 he says that none of these things does not show that pleasure is not good nor even the best thing can be shown two ways: first that what is good or bad need not be good or bad simply but can be good or bad for a certain person at a certain time, and secondly that a good or bad thing can either be a "being at work" (energeia) or else a stable disposition (hexis) and there are pleasures which come from being settled into a natural hexis, and also pleasures which come from being in a stable hexis already, such as contemplation; and thirdly, pleasures are ways of being at work, ends themselves, not just a process of coming into being aimed at some higher end."
Can someone who understands what the above is saying please reword it. --81.153.150.126
Doing a brief evaluation on this entry for a class. From what I can tell, this page seems fairly well fleshed out and I haven't found any flaws that a non-Aristotelian Scholar would find. Tone is neutral, sources are direct and unbiased, and links are still working. No obvious grammar or spelling mistakes either. Kudos people! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wahey24 ( talk • contribs) 00:45, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
If I were to best evaluate this entry I would say it does give a comprehensible insight into the world of Aristotle. The writing remains unbiased throughout, and I was unable to find any errors. The contributors to this article did a great job. As a person who previously knew little to nothing about Nicomachean ethics, I believe this entry was able to properly inform me about the topic. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Camille.dickerson231 (
talk •
contribs)
01:44, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Also, as part of a class assignment, we are to evaluate this page and determine if anything needs to be edited. I am no expert on Aristotle by any means so I don't have a specific suggestion for changes. I did notice that there are suggestions on the "To-Do" list and was wondering if this is something we, as a class, should work on. Does anyone have any input on a specific area that we should focus on? Wikiriker ( talk) 20:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
The only critique that I would add to this article, is that as more information is added, it will be important to describe the weaker points of Aristotle's arguments. Possibly where his reasoning needs further development, and when, if at all, he contradicts himself within his writings. Wikiriker ( talk 8:41, 2 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zokusai ( talk • contribs)
@ WhiteC:Good article it help me understand Aristotle's Ethics ScottB10 ( talk) 00:19, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
OVerall I believe "Nichomachean Ethics" has a good flow to it in respect to the subject matter. I liked that it included Aristotles written work such.Could not find any erros to the page. Tirsa.truji35 ( talk) 01:40, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Breaking each section section down by book and the main theory in each section was excellent. The use of tables to describe the ideal virtues is helpful for the visual learners. A ceja1994 ( talk) 19:23, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
I plan to edit this page as part of a class assignment.
Wikiriker ( talk) 07:15, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Bibliography Sources to Date:
Kraut, Richard. "Aristotle's Ethics", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Summer 2014 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.) URL = < http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/sum2014/entries/aristotle-ethics/>.
Heineman, Robert. "Eudaimonia and Self-sufficiency in the Nicomachean Ethics", Phronesis. BRILL: 1998, 33.1. Print. URL = < http://www.jstor.org/stable/4182292>.
Nice start,Wikiriker!-- Lejulelejule ( talk) 20:52, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Good job on all of the hard work everyone has put into this page. I know it took a lot of effort into making it. I was able to use it as a reference when I was writing something to post and don't have anything bad to say about it. Carissa Raines 19:17, 4 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carissa.Raines512 ( talk • contribs)
Just to register a discussion at User talk:AndrewOne:
I removed your template on Nicomachean Ethics although I understand the point and want to make sure you realize that. I think however that the template is not quite right.
First of all it advises that the articles should be expanded, which clearly does not fit the case quite well. I think your real point is not that the article is too short, but that it is not "secondary" enough? I agree with that to an extent, and the article overall could make more references to secondary works, though I think the template exaggerates the lack of them, and doing this is not quite as simple as the template suggests... Second you did not take the specific problems of this subject into account, and indeed these have been registered over the years on the talk page... Firstly, this is a work with thousands of years of complex and controversial secondary commentary. Every chapter of the book even has the same problem. For many points there are dozens of major positions that could not be ignored, and sometimes very much in conflict with each other.) To really deal with each of them well, I think the book's main article needs to be seen as a the main article, with specialized articles coming off it. But secondly it is hard to make a short main article concerning this book because the second problem is how complex it is, and how many different ways it is read. The summary is actually very compressed. (So to add more secondary material you would only make the article longer. You could not just remove all basic summary could you?) Inevitably then, there is a conflict between the two standard WP aims mentioned above (reasonable article length and based on secondary references). This is why, in order to at least get a core article which other articles can link to, a fairly detailed review has been needed, which explains in one place what the book contains at least, in a reasonably neutral way. Or at least this is the only solution anyone has proposed so far and frankly not many people are willing and able to work on an article like this without making it worse. Anyone proposing changes needs to grapple with this in detail, not just post a template, which could make the article worse. The way I see it in terms of the norms on Wikipedia, this is one of those compressed main articles we often have for a big subject - basically just used to link to the more detailed topics. The reason it does not look like it is because it is long. I suppose eventually other solutions can be tried but they will be a massive restructuring, not just a bit more sourcing? For example following the philosophy I have used, we could turn this article into one which really is short, and make articles for each book, moving something like the current sub sections to the new articles, making it more obvious that the article should be used as a starting point. But that could really go wrong and does not necessarily solve the problems mentioned on your template. (But currently, the main offshoot articles are more thematic, for example book 5 can and should be covered by an article on Aristotle's theory of justice, comparing it to his other known works for example. So arguably an article for every book would not be the right thing to do.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:39, 4 September 2016 (UTC) |
I will go through the latest template you have added and show how it is not appropriate. It seems too much of a blunt weapon:
There seems to be a little error in this very helpful article: the term "eudamonia" is only introduced in I.4, and not in I.3 as is suggested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.131.64.47 ( talk) 13:18, 19 February 2017 (UTC)