![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 2006 March 31. The result of the discussion was No consensus. |
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This is a useful article title that is now taken up by a single book. Is this right?-- shtove 23:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't see anything here worth saving or merging. Maybe the topic is worthy of an article. If someone wants to start from scratch immediately, then keep it. Otherwise, it should be deleted.
FloNight
talk
16:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I came to this link expecting an article on the relationship between neoplatonism and gnosticism, but found a discombobulated book review. Does wikipedia have a book review section? This 'article' doesn't seem to belong here.
Zeusnoos
20:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Zeusnoos if you can find any other source about Neoplatonicism and Gnosticism please add it to the references in this article and help develope this article. The reason I created the article in this way was that the book the source I could find documenting such a movement idea or thing. The book is the documentation of the acedemic community attempting to create a movement and committee based on this idea exclusively. If you know of any other source more specific about the movement once again please add it. LoveMonkey 12:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello LoveMonkey! If you can develop Neoplatonism and Gnosticism into an article, I would be happy. I don't like deleting. That's the reason that I use PROD. I gives someone a chance to fix it and take off the PROD. FloNight talk 17:07, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
LoveMonkey, I understand where you are going with this now. I moved some of information to the top to explain why this book is significant. I'm going to wikify some of the table of content, (hopefully some will be links!)
FloNight
talk
17:21, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Might want to kill the bold type. Kinda looks like your making the letters bigger to take up more space (cheaters!) 0) Cyclops.
-- DanielCD 18:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
For a keep, it might be beneficial to explain the significance of the work and/or the authors. Has this book had a major impact on research/history of Neoplatism scholarship? Such an addition would probably strengthen the article enough to make a sprint for a possible keep. I'd like to read more, but I'd also like to have the importance spelled out. -- Shadow Puppet 14:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Sources I'm seeing say that R. T. Wallis and J. Bregman were the editors. Who is Armstrong and how does he relate to this?
Can't really find anything to add as far as the significance of the book. I tried, but not much immediately available. -- Shadow Puppet 20:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I reworded this, but is it supposed to say the influence of Plotinus on religions, or vice versa? -- Shadow Puppet 21:05, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
...and FloNight: i stole your dove picture and put it on my page...
I was really, from the offset trying to create an article along the lines of Decline of the Roman Empire. Only the article including the book this time as a spring board. LoveMonkey 20:25, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The deletion request of this article is disruptive. I have been working with a professor and member of the international neoplatonic society. What is posted has been reviewed and ok'ed by Profesor Moore, it is the best peer review I can come up with. LoveMonkey 04:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Where is the dialog on the reasons why the article is up for deletion? LoveMonkey 12:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It has been suggested that this article is not sufficiently notable, as it is or was based on a single book that presumably had a small print run, and in any case is out of print (I was intrigued enough by the contents listed in an early version of this page to want to order it from Amazon, but discovered it is not (or no longer) available there).
While I do agree that not every book needs a wiki page about it (even if some do!), the subject matter covered here would be of interest to the study of the finer academic details of Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, and for that matter Esotericism of the late Hellenistic period. I also think LoveMonkey has been doing a good job at improving the content of this page, changing it from a page about a book to a page about subjects discussed at a Conference. A Conference, although obscure to anyone not specialising in these subjects, is still worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. After all, if we have detailed pages here on every planet and fictional character in the Star Wars or Star Trek universe (something I as a self-professed geek fully support btw), then there is no reason why we can't have detailed pages on serious academic conferences on this or any other subject, provided they are in keeping with wikipedia guidelines (NPOV, no original research, etc).
So perhaps it is that the problem is not the content on this page, but that the title is too broad for the current page content, and hence inappropriate and misleading.
So how about the following idea:
That way all the work on the current page isn't wasted, and at the same time a new page more appropriate to the subject title can be started. Also, the material on Plotinus and the gnostics which really takes up much too much space on the Plotinus page can be transferred to the new Neoplatonism and Gnosticism page. Or even better, it can be given a new page of its own. What does everyone think? M Alan Kazlev 09:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Really? The deletion page doesn't do it for me - although I didn't contribute. What I'd like to see:
Then let the article be fleshed out, preferrably with the substance of the relevant section in Plotinus, which can be transferred here with a link. And then Love Monkey's best loved book can have its title and ISBN inserted into the reference section, while its concepts are set out in the text. Why is this so difficult?-- shtove 01:53, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
OK since this was fought a while ago and no one has tried, I'll start working on an attempt. My user space has drafts of each of these two sub-pages. I'll work on them a little and anyone else can too, and when we think they are OK we'll replace the current page with them.
Bmorton3 20:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems that what is stated in AH Armstrong's translation of the Enneads must be censured and or suppressed. Why is that? Also Dan do you have a copy of this 1980s edition of AH Armstrongs Enneads of so then you know that he literally stated what was posted and then sourced. The term unhellenistic heretic is in the introduction notes they were written by AH Armstrong not me. I copied and posted them word for word. LoveMonkey 02:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
???? You deleted the comment heretic and made some reference that the word did not exist in Plotinus' time as justification to remove it. You also removed "took all of their truths over from Plato" [1]. This is blanket deletion. LoveMonkey 18:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Post here how it does. LoveMonkey 12:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Dan wrote... As it has in the past, your own link disproves your claim. Dan 03:17, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
This link are the edits you did [2]. You removed the word heretic and then the source to heretic that in the quote stated that "Plotinus thought of the gnostics as heretics.
Introductory Note This treatise (No.33 in Porphyry's chronological order)is in fact the concluding section of a single long treatise which Porphyry, in order to carry out the design of grouping his master's works, more or less according to subject, into six sets of nine treatise, hacked roughly into four parts which he put into different Enneads, the other three being III. 8 (30) V. 8 (31) and V .5 (32). Porphyry says (Life ch. 16.11) that he gave the treatise the Title "Against the Gnostics" (he is presumably also responsible for the titles of the othersections of the cut-up treatise). There is an alternative title in Life. ch. 24 56-57 which runs "Against those who say that the maker of the universe is evil and the universe is evil.The treatise as it stands in the Enneads is a most powerful protest on behalf of Hellenic philosophy against the un-Hellenic heresy (as it was from the Platonist as well as the orthodox Christian point of view) of Gnosticism. A.H. Armstrong introduction to II 9. Against the Gnostics Pages 220-222"
You also removed the line "took all of their truths over from Plato" and then also removed the sourcing to it that stated
"The teaching of the Gnostics seems to him untraditional, irrational and immoral. They despise and revile the ancient Platonic teachings and claim to have a new and superior wisdom of their own: but in fact anything that is true in their teaching COMES FROM PLATO, and all they have done themselves is to add senseless complications and pervert the true traditional doctrine into a melodramatic, superstitious fantasy designed to feed their own delusions of grandeur. They reject the only true way of salvation through wisdom and virtue, the slow patient study of truth and pursuit of perfection by men who respect the wisdom of the ancients and know their place in the universe. A.H. Armstrong introduction to II 9. Against the Gnostics Pages 220-222"
Please explain how what was sourced does not validate what was written in the article? You have yet to do that Dan. LoveMonkey 19:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Dan I think we need to maybe get an administrator or two involved. You removed specific statements from the article and then also the sourcing information and then claim that the two don't validate one another. You claim that I keep doing this and yet I am not even sourcing entire sentences or passages. I am now down to sourcing, the use of single words in the article and you still ignore the evidence given and instead make unsubstantiated accusations. And Blanket delete. LoveMonkey 19:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes between the comments taken from here (AKA heretics) and the blanket deletion of an entire section (with a summary of this articles content) from Plotinus an Rfc might be just the thing. LoveMonkey 11:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
LoveMonkey
02:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Re: 'Plotinus considered his opponents "heretics"'. Please provide the proof of this statement. The
disputed deletion contains the phrase "a most powerful protest on behalf of Hellenic philosophy against the un-Hellenic heresy". This phrase is a modern opinion about actions of Plotinus, not what he "considered his opponent to be". Or am I missing something here? `'
Míkka
20:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
LoveMonkey
02:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I could also add
apostate to the article since Christos Evangelous refers to the text and Plotinus' opinion of the gnostics as Apostates (neoplatonism and gnosticism pg114 through 115). In specific Adelphius and
Aquilinus. I only sourced the
Enneads but I could add even more if you like. Armstrong specifically uses the word heretic though. Armstrong edition is the Cambridge edition so if you know of another scholar that states that Armstrong is wrong please post them.
LoveMonkey
03:01, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Again this statement is incorrect-
Incorrect Armstrong's quote is..Word of word from the Enneads not my opinion.
Here is the quote from the book.
"The treatise as it stands in the Enneads is a most powerful protest on behalf of Hellenic philosophy against the un-Hellenic heresy(as it was from the Platonist as well as the orthodox Christian point of view) of Gnosticism. A.H. Armstrong introduction to II 9. Against the Gnostics Pages 220-222"
LoveMonkey 11:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
This is not so, Armstrong is peer-reviewed. Therefore he is not the only one making the statement. I have not made any conclusion, I have only posted what is in print. It is you who have decided that Armstrong and Loeb are not informed enough in the text to not properly represent the Plotinus text. It is you who are now stating that Armstrong was not good enough in his translation to make a statement and qualify it as opinion rather then fact. You are in essences second guessing Armstrong. You are stating that he as a translator was misinterpreting and misrepresenting Plotinus. Again I am not concluding anything I am only posting what is in Armstrong's translation of Plotinus Enneads. It is you who are concluding that I and also Armstrong are stating opinion as fact. Please show how me posting that in the introduction to the Enneads "Against the Gnostic" Armstrong qualifies his statements as opinion. Please show me another scholars work in the field of Plotinus that states that Armstrong was stating opinion rather then fact. If you can not do this then you are making an allegation and are engaging in Original Research. There is no reason to believe that Armstrong is wrong and or stating opinion in his introduction. It also appears that you requiring such a critieria is not normal of wikipedia articles and is not within the policies as already stated by wikipedia this is instead an innovation and is not the standard as established by the policy of verifiablity. LoveMonkey 16:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
If there is lack of clarity on the policy this is not on my end. I have not made an opinion I have stated what is in print. I have posted what can be sourced and sourced according the the criteria of verifiablity. I have not then went back and then tried to qualify in any scholars text what is opinion and or what is fact, unless the scholar did so themselves within the text of the source I have posted. LoveMonkey 16:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Plotinus. Enneads, 7 vols., translated by A.H. Armstrong, Loeb Classical Library.
Shortcut: WP:SOURCES See also: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources. All articles must adhere to Wikipedia's neutrality policy, fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view.[4]
In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text."
Armstrong's edition of Enneads mets these requirements. If what Armstrong has expressed is outside the academic consensus of his field of study AKA Hellenic Philosophy please post where this has been called by the academic community into quesion because I have not seen any such articles and if I am ignorant of them I apologize.
LoveMonkey
12:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
DGG when I was speaking of the deleting that Dan did I was speaking of his removal of parts I added to Plotinus that he deleted [3] as well as parts to this article. LoveMonkey 13:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Professor Turner wrote this about Plotinus' commentary in Against the Gnostics.
"Although the Platonists initially regarded the Sethians as friends, soon they too, like the
heresiologists of the church, began writing pointed and lengthy attacks upon them for distorting the teaching of Plato which they adapted to depict their own spiritual world and the path toward assimilation with it."
LoveMonkey
17:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
But DGG Plotinus never used the word distorted, that is your opinion. Since the word heresy is at least as old as Irenaeus which would make the word older then Plotinus. Armstrong used the word. Tell me how to "properly" express Plotinus' sentiments? Since if I just post from Armstrong I get criticisized as engaging in copyright infringement. Or if I write the article with a Philosophy Professor from Indiana University the article is then just an essay. Is this not a most impossible criteria? What sources have either of these two editors posted? What neoplatonic works by peer reviewed scholars have they based there objections upon? LoveMonkey 13:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
All of this has already been addressed. LoveMonkey 13:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Well Armstrong thought so, so did Evangleu also so did Turner above. This intensity that Plotinus is critical of the gnostics is what is being documented. Plotinus and then other Neoplatonists had a great distain for the gnostics that is the weight of the vocabulary. The Neoplatonist were very explicit in their critical stance toward the "gnostics". Hence such numerious statements as the one below.
"Although the Platonists initially regarded the Sethians as friends, soon they too, like the heresiologists of the church, began writing pointed and lengthy attacks upon them for distorting the teaching of Plato which they adapted to depict their own spiritual world and the path toward assimilation with it."
Again this is not Armstrong this is Professor John D Turner one of the translators of the Nag Hammadi. Also Evangelou used the word apostate although when Armstrong addressed and rebuttaled to Evangelou in Armstrong's intro to Plotinus' Against the Gnostics he stated that the Gnostics in origin were Pre Christian and outside of the Hellenistic schools of philosophy so they could not really apostate. Do either of you guys have any other Neoplatonic scholars and or their work published in journals online that can refute what Armstrong stated? Or Turner or Evangelou. I can name other scholars that used the same type of verbage in their depiction of the Neoplatonic stance against Gnosticism then even these three scholars.
I mean when this whole argument started on the Plotinus page. I tried to even educate (though I am not a scholar) the poster who was posting original research saying all kinds of crazy innovations on the subject of Neoplatonism and Gnosticism. I even enlightened him to the two source I found that objected to the gnostics being anything other then just another Greek Christian denomination. And how this was addressed by scholars in the Neoplatonic communitee. But that and this has caused me to have to narrow what the article and what I can say since now even when it is in print and a scholar says it administrators and posters can find justification to change and or reinterpret what is in print because they object to it. And if they are not objecting then what are they doing?
LoveMonkey
13:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Again this has been addressed. As for Plotinus and more Christian or not this too, is historical (see the originator of neoplatonism and teacher of Plotinus Ammonius Saccas)and not an innovation on my part. It is a matter of documented history. I have already argued that Plotinus never mentions Christianity nor Christ. As for your misunderstanding of what I previously stated take a look at my response to you again here [4] and my recent edits to the article henosis that you requested sourcing on. LoveMonkey 23:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Again it being addressed means no one is denying your right to criticise. What is the problem is, is that we have to work together with one another from reputable sources. If a reputable source is used it does nothing for wiki's credibility to then try and second guess that source. It is even worse when those doing the second guess have no connection to that community that they are now criticizing. I myself need to go back and look at all of it again just so that I can confirm (since I too have no direct connection). As for the henosis I did just quote Plotinus that is the sourcing I added to the article so you seemed to have missed the point. As for Plotinus I will say that his works are not easily understood and to take parts of them and quote them can make a bigger mess since he was writing more from a traditional and deeply intellectually informed perspective. You might if you could (since Professor Morton has left) put a section in the henosis article dedicated to the Valentinian and other gnostic nomenclatures. I apologize if I have angered you it was not my intention. LoveMonkey 14:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
This subject is very obscured by being imbedded in technical jargon. It would very good for readers to see the evolution of the Neoplatonic movement in it's understanding with Neoplatonism. In a more modern wording. LoveMonkey 13:25, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The article is rather badly written, perhaps the result of re-editing without consolidating. Sentences such as this (quoted in full), "Since a high aptitude would be a necessary qualification to understand and grasp the teachings of the academy", are typical throughout. The article is about an significant subject, so the failings of presentation become even more important. I will leave the task of amend and rescue to others, because of the time certain to be wasted (the article's chief architect I find to be rather obstinate and obdurate, though assiduous). - The Gnome ( talk) 07:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
This article can be summarized as follows: Gnosticism was influenced by (Middle) Platonism, but neo-Platonism rejected Gnosticism. I've trimmed the text, to put forward this summary. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 08:46, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
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