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Neelum River. Please take a moment to review
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Hi @
Uanfala: while I have agreed to some of your reverts of the link, I do not agree with this
[1] revert. I understand the AK is linked before but why revert the
Pakistan administered Kashmir link that is in the article body. FYI Pakistan-administered Kashmir is no longer a redirect but an article now. --DBigXrayᗙ14:24, 7 December 2018 (UTC)reply
The river flows through the part of Pakistan administered Kashmir that is Azad Kashmir. This was already linked at the start of the paragraph. Suddnely changing gear in the next sentence and linking to wider regions isn't helpful: PAK is relevant only to the extent that AK is relevant in this context: a link to the PAK article would have been appropriate if there were discussion of the policital/international context or if it were needed to distinguish between the two regions. –
Uanfala (talk)14:31, 7 December 2018 (UTC)reply
ok, I get your point. I believe since the article text specifically calls out PAK, the geo article associated with that text should have been linked. we will agree to diagree on this wiki link. I will note my disagreement here and will not pursue this disagreement further. thanks for the reply, regards. --DBigXrayᗙ14:40, 7 December 2018 (UTC)reply
Devnagari
Uanfala, I am not sure why the Devnagari script has been included for the names in this article. Other than
WP:IS, Urdu is the official languages on both the sides of Kashmir as far as I know. --
Kautilya3 (
talk)
07:14, 26 March 2019 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I don't see a particular need for the Devanagari. Urdu, with added transliteration (if not for anything other than to make up for the phonetic ambiguity of the script), should be sufficient. –
Uanfala (talk)13:57, 26 March 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Uanfala:I understand that you
have reverted my edit removing the non-latin script from the article’s infobox per
WP:NOINDIC because you believe the article is “mostly related to Pakistan.” But of the 250 kilometres long course of the
transboundary river, almost a third fourth is within Indian territory or along the line of control—the de facto India-Pakistan border in Kashmir (about a fifth in only Indian territory). About a third of the river’s basin is located inside India. Comparable with
Ravi and
Jhelum. Wouldn’t this mean that the river is significantly within the scope of Wikiproject India, even if not mostly or entirely? The article itself doesn’t seem to be written in a way that would make it seem like it is mostly related to Pakistan.
UnpetitproleX (
talk)
12:43, 6 February 2023 (UTC)reply
I'd imagine the case to be settled given that over half of the river is outside India? I'm not claiming that Wikiproject India is not relevant here (of course it is), the point is that this article is primarily under the scope of another wikiproject, and the internal India rules don't apply here. Also, the original motivation for WP:NOINDIC is to prevent the sort of disputes over scripts (which ones and in what order) that were a painfully common occurrence on some Indian articles. These things are very rare on Pakistani articles, and I'm a bit saddened to see a rule meant to prevent controversies being exported to a topic area where it starts to create controversies that didn't exist before. Also, and I don't think this is particularly relevant here, but the article
Ravi River has had the native names in its lede for almost all of its history until, until they were boldly
removed in 2020. –
Uanfala (
talk)
16:04, 6 February 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Uanfala: I do think it is very relevant here, since much like the Kishanganga, over half of the
Ravi River also falls outside India. If the Ravi article can be subject to the
WP:NOINDIC rule, I believe this article can be, too. I’m guessing the
removal of native names by
Kautilya3 was prompted by the addition of
Punjabi name in Shahmukhi script by an IP user. Shahmukhi Punjabi is not an official language anywhere where the Ravi flows, but is sometimes added to articles related to
Pakistani Punjab (such as
Lahore) by Pakistani users.
Now if this article is to be exempted from
WP:NOINDIC, that means that all officals languages may be used in the infobox. Besides Urdu, there are three more official languages on the Indian side. We will need to add those for
neutrality, though I don’t want to add the Devanagari script for Hindi/Dogri, and the Perso-Arabic for Kashmiri, alongside the existing Urdu. It would be better to not include any non-latin scripts in the infobox.
UnpetitproleX (
talk)
07:24, 7 February 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Kautilya3: No, because unlike Shahmukhi Punjabi which is not an official language in any territory where the Ravi flows, those languages are actually official languages on the Indian side. In its current form the infobox is not
neutral.
UnpetitproleX (
talk)
07:07, 8 February 2023 (UTC)reply
I am not one that has ever understood the need for foreign scripts in an English Wikipedia. But one script that is widely undersood within the region of a locale would be acceptable. For an international river, two scripts or more may be necessary. Being an "official language" is not a requirement, except for the fact that it may be widely understood in the region. When you start talking about three official languages, I shut down and think "no, that is not the way".
If being an official language is not the requirement, then the usage of Urdu under “native name” makes no sense at all. The native languages of the region are
Shina,
Kashmiri, and
Pahari, not Urdu. They’re also likely more widely understood in the region, given the remote location and abysmal literacy rates (since non-native languages are learned mostly through formal education or interaction with outsiders), especially on the Pakistan side.
UnpetitproleX (
talk)
11:05, 8 February 2023 (UTC)reply
The infobox entry says “native name”, not “name in a widely read and understood language”. The only reason Urdu is there instead of a native language is because it is the official language in Pakistan-administered Kashmir.
UnpetitproleX (
talk)
12:16, 9 February 2023 (UTC)reply
No, "native" definitely does not mean "official", whatever that might mean. It means the language the local people use, for writing in particular. When there are many languages in use, you would still find a dominant language, in which people study in schools, read newspapers and announcements etc. This is not rocket science. --
Kautilya3 (
talk)
17:09, 9 February 2023 (UTC)reply
The Devanagari script should not be used as it's a non-native script in Pakistan and
WP:PAK only uses native scripts across it's articles. As far as India is concerned,
WP:NOINDIC prevents it's usage on India-related articles.
Oriental Aristocrat (
talk)
17:07, 16 April 2023 (UTC)reply
No, you are making flawed arguments. Either the article belongs to WikiProject India, in which case all scripts should be removed, or it belongs to WikiProject Pakistan, in which case there are no rules about scripts. You are making up your own rules and claiming non-existent "consensus". --
Kautilya3 (
talk)
13:34, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I have engaged in this topic area quite a bit, and can safely say that where script clutter arises removing them all is the best option and what is/should be generally followed. That was the intention of INDICSCRIPTS and its spirit extends beyond the India Project area.
As to the above comments when are where INDICSCRIPTS can be used: where the topic is not wholly/mostly India specific they can be including where other scripts are being so used (e. g. geo articles covering multiple countries such as here); but from what I have seen the best case usage (preventing script clutter) is to not use non-English scripts at all.
Gotitbro (
talk)
13:29, 21 April 2023 (UTC)reply