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Archive 1 |
What is the meaning of The latters here - Jews or Gypsies and Jews? I would suggest to rewrite the sentence. Xx236 08:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The ability of Nazism and Facism to develop were in part the result of the immoral decay that ocurred in Europe especially Germany after WWI and the fall of the Monarchs and the class structure ?
In reference to Marlene Dietrich who was apart of the cultural decay scene of the times....
This is not currently part of this listing and should be included to improve the article.
--
Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti
(talk)
21:36, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Google books shows some information on the 'moral decay' post WWI
Seems this is not included.
--
Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti
(talk)
22:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
it is stated that the nazis had a 'ladder' for racial clasification. it would be good to publish the ladder, or simply post the various positions. all it says in this artcile is nordics at the top and jews and gypsies at the bottom. what of the inbetweens? surely the nazis classed the world's population in more catagories than gypsie/jew and nordic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.115.39 ( talk) 14:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
"All white people (Europeans) were considered to be Aryan as long as they had no Jewish ancestry (Nuremberg Laws) under the definition as "Indo-European".... The fate of black people from 1933 to 1945 in Nazi Germany and in German-occupied territories ranged from isolation to persecution, sterilization, medical experimentation, incarceration, brutality, and murder. However, there was no systematic program for their elimination as there was for Jews and other groups.... About 10,000 Japanese nationals (mostly diplomats and military officials) residing in Germany were given "Honorary Aryan" citizenship with more privileges than any other "non-Aryan" ethnonational group."
re: Ironically, pre-War Poland's population, deemed to be exterminated, had more citizens of Nordic race than pre-war Germany.[2]
This "deemed to be exterminated" sounds ironic and pejorative. Moreover, the statement about Poland having higher number of Nordic race than Germany is absolutely false. The pre-war Poland was a mix of ethnic Poles (who at the time were around 37% Nordic, which was clearly not such a "largely dominant" type) with Jews, Tatars, many other Slavs and ethnic groups from Southeast Europe, Armenians, Gypsies etc, while the pre-war Germany was rather a racially "homogeneous" country with domination of the Nordic type. My source is Jan Czekanowski and his book "Człowiek w Czasie i Przestrzeni" ("A Human in Time and Space") written in 1934, my re-edition comes from the 1960s, page 127. Thank you. Yatzhek ( talk) 17:43, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
One hears so often about how Hitler wasn't blue-eyed blond-haired like a "real" Aryan, yet when you read the history it seems like the Nazis defined Aryanness as much or more along phrenological lines, i.e. shape of the skull, nose, etc. Perhaps some discussion of how race was defined under Nazism, since it does not seem to be the same as the current-day English-speaking world? Historian932 ( talk) 04:51, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
It should be noted that the Nazis persecuted Jews not because of their race. There were no racial tests performed on large scale and the most prominent German anthropologists of the time admitted that it was impossible to reliably distinguish Jews by the racial criteria as the majority of German Jews belonged to the same racial groups as Germans did. So accusing Jews of belonging to another race was nothing more than a popular propaganda, like accusing them of being Communists etc. It is of note that racism was very popular those times, and not only in Germany, so the Nazis just employed a popular topic to attack the Jews.--
MathFacts (
talk)
13:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
in the propaganda documentary "the eternal Jew" made by the Nazi party they outline physical characteristics that Jews have. and also note that they look very similar to the German people and to the untrained eye would go unnoticed. they claim physical things like "big noises" and "rough hair". — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mattyyboyy86 (
talk •
contribs)
21:12, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The same can be also applied to Slavs: saying Slavs are of different race than Germans is a complete nonsense, non only now but was also those days.--
MathFacts (
talk)
14:17, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I propose the removal of the category "Subhuman: Romani, Slavs and Jews", not because of the content in the category, but because the term "subhuman" was not exclusively a racial term and the article is about Nazism and race. Plus, there was no such thing as a "subhuman hierarchy", according to the Nazis the hierarchy was essentially human vs subhuman. I think a more appropriate way of including this material into the article would be to put it in the "ideology" section.--
Adolphus Weber (
talk)
14:47, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
As Nazis engaged in racist actions against Poles, Jews and Romani who they viewed as non-Aryan subhumans and aimed at their enslavement and extermination this section is necessary.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:09, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Irene Tomaszewski, Tecia Werbowski - 2010 and Slavs and Jews in the lowest category of Untermenschen (subhumans) The Western Heritage from 1500 to the Present Stewart Copinger Easton - 1966 - Other "races" were degenerate or mongrelized or subhuman, the Jews lowest of all and the Slavs next to the lowest The Impact of Nazism: New Perspectives on the Third Reich and Its Legacy
Alan E. Steinweis, Daniel E. Rogers - 2003 But to ensure their preeminence, Germans would have to be segregated from the Untermenschen, who could biologically contaminate the former and diminish their racial value. Less racially hazardous Untermenschen, such as Poles, would be allowed to live, but Jews, whom the Nazis deemed the lowest Untermenschen
Terror, Force, and States: The Path from Modernity Rosemary H. T. O'Kane - 1996 - 'Untermensch 'philosophy The categories of workers chosen for exploitation were based on Nazi racist views of superior and ... Ranked beneath the Slavs, at the lowest rung of inferiority, Jews and gypsies would be treated with even greater
I removed a link to website called www.white-history.com.
It goes to self-published website with title March of the Titans The Complete History of the White Race which should bring about alarm bells ringing. The site seems to be by Arthur Kemp who has his own wikipedia page /info/en/?search=Arthur_Kemp He is a former member of British National Party, we can also read that "Kemp has written and self-published several books including March of the Titans: A History of the White Race, which says that race—understood in biological terms—is the driving engine in history.[15] An article in The Guardian says that the book questions the number of Jews killed in the Second World War, and "is popular with far-right activists around the world".[6] In the Western Mail news article he is quoted as saying, "I deny outright that my book denies the Holocaust." The book itself is quoted as saying "... certainly far fewer died than what is most often claimed. Increasingly, all the evidence urges a complete revision of this aspect of the history of World War Two."[2]
According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, in 2005, some of Kemp's writings had been reproduced in National Alliance publications, and the National Alliance awarded him the "Dr. William Pierce Award for Investigative Journalism", which brought with it a $250 prize, for his article in National Vanguard, "White South Africa: What Went Wrong?".[16] That article had appeared on the internet prior to its publication in National Vanguard magazine on Kemp's blog and in a book he published called The Lie of Apartheid.[17]
The use of such source by editor leads me to be very concerned about nature of his edits.
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 22:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
My edit to this article
[1] has been removed with the reason "remove most, this is not in regards to Gunter and distorts Nazi policies" - this is not true. The Nazis did regard most Slavs as racially inferior to the Germans. But, some Slavs were recognized to have Nordic traits and were considered to be suitable for Germanization. The Nazis were constantly looking throughout the Czech, Polish, Russian and other Eastern European countries for people who appeared to be Nordic. Not all Slavs were targeted the same as was the case when it came to the Jews.--
Adolphus Weber (
talk)
01:14, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Currently the article states "Günther believed Slavic people to be of "Eastern race" separate from Germany and Nordics and warned about mixing "German blood" with Slavic one" with the source Wulf D. Hund, Racisms Made in Germany p.19. The source does not say what this sentence is saying at all, the source states that Günther warned about Slavs who belonged to the Eastern race mixing with Nordics would result in a loss of Nordics in Germany (German nation), it does not say that he opposed all mixing between people of "German blood" and Slavs.--
Adolphus Weber (
talk)
01:22, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
This section is abstruse and needs to be rewritten in more lay terms. There are too many links in this paragraph which are necessary to follow to gather a base understanding.- 24.130.100.115 ( talk) 18:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Philosophers and other theoreticians participated in the elaboration of Nazi ideology. The relationship between Heidegger and Nazism has remained a controversial subject in the history of philosophy, even today. According to the philosopher Emmanuel Faye, Heidegger said of Spinoza that he was "ein Fremdkörper in der Philosophie", a "foreign body in philosophy" – Faye notes that Fremdkörper was a term which belonged to the Nazi glossary, and not to classical German[2]. The jurist Carl Schmitt elaborated a philosophy of law praising the Führerprinzip and the German people, while Alfred Baeumler instrumentalized Nietzsche's thought, in particular his concept of the "Will to Power", in an attempt to justify Nazism.
In the section 'Origins', the paragraph which gives an account of the prevailing views concerning race relations in both American and Britain in the early 20th century is irrelevant and thereby removed. It decidedly gives a brief account on some views regarding race, mainly in America, but fails to correlate any substantial relationship or link with Nazism and race. It would better serve readers if it were appropriately placed in Wiki pages concerning American and British eugenics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.95.165.92 ( talk) 16:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The section is abstruse because the content is nonsense; the hit piece on Heidegger by Farris does not even make these claims. That Heidegger may have gone along with the Nazis fails to show that he had any influence on reigning Nazi ideology, which is an obvious falsehood which no one, even the most ad-hominem detractors of Heidegger like Farris believes. The Nazis did not read Heidegger or like him, and he was only in the University Rector position for one year in 1933 and then resigned. There is already an entire article on Heidegger’s association with Nazism. That article is bad enough, let’s not ruin this article too with ill-digested innuendo about Heidegger and vague suggestions that he influenced the “origins of Nazism”- claims which NO ONE believes. Even the insufferable academic hack Farris doesn’t claim what this paragraph purports to say, namely, that heidegger had some kind of influence on the intellectual origins of Nazism.
Drug Addict (
talk) 14:01, 24 January 2018 (UTC) Struck as sockpuppet.
Beyond My Ken (
talk)
18:11, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
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Is it really necessary to have separate sections for Slavs and Poles? Poles are classified as Slavs (West Slavs), so why is there a need to have an extra section? By the same argument, there should be a separate for other Slavic nations e.g Russians that also suffered from Nazi persecution. The section also says "Subhuman: Poles", some readers may interpret that as Poles being different from other Slavs which is simply not true. Would it not make more sense to remove the word "Subhuman" from the title of the section and have separate sections for Jews, Romani and Sinti (Gypsies) and Slavs? The latter category could have subsections such as "Poles" and "Russians" with extra information about how those Slavic ethnic groups were targeted more than other Slavic ethnic groups.-- 92.18.69.191 ( talk) 01:09, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Beyond My Ken: Do you have any problem with me making this adjustment? I would like the proposed format style so I could also create a section about the Nazis treatment of Soviet POWs and Russians.-- 92.18.69.191 ( talk) 18:02, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Given that Finns, Karelians, Sami, Hungarians, etc. are, to my understanding, neither Germanic nor Slavic, how did the Nazis classify them? Finland was de facto an Axis power during the Winter War, or so I'm told, so the Nazis must have dealt with Finns at one point, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Franxz ( talk • contribs) 05:04, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Heinrich Himmler and some of his handpicked researchers in the Ahnenerbe were fascinated by Finnish culture. I don't know any sources for their standing in the Nazi racial hierarchy but it does seem probable they were considered Aryans of some type (Nazi racial science was never too bothered with things like evidence after all). 97.115.195.164 ( talk) 23:32, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
Propaganda? Hitler seems to have not even believed in the concept of "Slavs" as an ethnic group. Why do you continue pushing this propaganda? I have images of Poles in the SS and Wehrmacht, Serbs being regarded as Aryans and the such. Didn't the SS requirements for joining include being of pure Aryan blood? How come 1,5 million Russians collaborated with Nazi Germany if they wanted to genocide all of them? How come Hitler spoke positively of the Poles? How come that, after viewing the history of the edits, Tomislav's edits were removed even after he had given proof?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Truehistory14 ( talk • contribs) 07:04, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
The very first image in the article showing Hans F. K. Günther's map that goes by the name 'Rassenkarte von Europa.jpg' is photoshopped. You can find the original just by googling the current one.
For some reason in the current variant someone made russians more nordic. I wonder who and why did this.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddutkovich ( talk • contribs) 16:45, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
This article does not say anything on how the Nazis regarded northern Italians. Because the article says that central/southern Italians were regarded as Mediterranean aryans, but what about the northern Italians? 79.50.181.132 ( talk) 20:41, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
Study racial theorist in bed with Nazism and Fascism, Julius Evola. The official Fascist Racial Manifesto blessed by Mussolini states the original ethnic nuclei of the Romanic-Italian people was Nordic - not Germanic, but NORDIC - and leading Nazi racial thinkers generally were identical to Evola here - Italian mixture with non-"Aryans" was noted, but considered redeemable via eugenic re-purification; the Sicilian population, its history with Afro-Arabian contacts, was conceded but Sicilians in the end, all parties allowed as at least minimally Mediterranean idiovariations of the more racially-preserved Northern-Italian type, primordially a sub-variety of the greater Nordic subspecies. Evola involves mystical Hyperborean theories here, but it amounts to the same thing... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:B34B:A940:5C4E:8E8:22DA:76FE ( talk) 20:57, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
I believe that Ukrainians deserve mentioning. Western Ukrainians were treated relatively well, the Eastern ones were Ostarbeiter. I don't know ideology behind the discrimination. Xx236 ( talk) 11:31, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Guys,
for accuracy I have to tell that in Hitler's final political testament in 1945 he reinforced in written that eventually not necessarily a fundemental (= hating just per se of being existent without any reason) racial hatred lead him, but mainly behavioral and cultural patterns of the respective people.( KIENGIR ( talk) 17:02, 19 August 2019 (UTC))
I think this section is missing views on Indians. The only part relating is about the Romanis (gypsies). I know Nazis respected Aryan/high-caste Indians. Some of their ideology came from the caste system. They probably did not respect Dravidians. I do not have enough information to add but request somebody does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.234.160.68 ( talk) 23:48, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
123Uncle,
please discuss before any further changes here and gain consensus first. Thank You.( KIENGIR ( talk) 17:53, 18 December 2019 (UTC))
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The Nazi use of Atlantis to promote racial propaganda is very interesting. [2] [3] 2601:447:4080:10:D0B4:F8AB:2EE2:B2A4 ( talk) 02:35, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Beyond My Ken has reverted my addition of templates to the article. I do not think a consensus is strictly needed to add them, but it's worth setting out the issues with the article here anyway. The bottom line is that there are a number of very serious issues with this article which are only compounded by the fact that it addresses sensitive issues which we should be particularly careful to get right.
Does this provide some justification for the tags? — Brigade Piron ( talk) 18:08, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Beginning in 1933, the Nazi leadership in Germany made efforts to increase their influence in Iran, and they financed and managed a racist journal, Iran-e Bastan, co-edited by a pro-Nazi Iranian, Sheikh Abdul-Rahman Seif. This and other chauvinistic publications in the 1930s were popular among Iranian elites; they "highlighted the past and the pre-Islamic glories of the Persian nation and blamed the supposedly 'savage Arabs and Turks' for the backwardness of Iran."[29] In Iran:
The Nazis found a favorable climate amongst the Iranian elite to spread fascistic and racist propaganda. The Nazi propaganda machine advocated the (supposedly) common Aryan ancestry of "the two Nations." In order to further cultivate racist tendencies, in 1936 the Reich Cabinet issued a special decree exempting Iranians from the restrictions of the Nuremberg Racial Laws on the grounds that they were 'pure-blooded' Aryans ... In various pro-Nazi publications, lectures, speeches, and ceremonies, parallels were drawn among Reza Shah, Hitler, and Mussolini to emphasize the charismatic resemblance among these leaders."[29] Nazi ideology was most common among Persian officials, elites, and intellectuals, but "even some members of non-Persian groups were eager to identify themselves with the Nazis" and a supposed Aryan race.[29] Hitler declared Iran to be an "Aryan state"; the changing of Persia's international name to Iran in 1935 was done by the Shah at the suggestion of the German ambassador to Iran as an act of "Aryan solidarity."[30]
I think that this paragraph should be deleted because there is no source on it, and the article appears to be an opinion and not a fact Sarazxs123 ( talk) 09:25, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
I can't find out how the Nazi theories classified and treated the Baltic Lithuanians and Latvians; the only remark I could find was in German occupation of the Baltic states during World War II § Under German rule: "Germans immediately initiated anti-Jewish persecution by deploying its mobile death squads, the Einsatzgruppen. The remainder of the Baltic peoples were deemed by the Nazis to be "a dying race" that needed to be "replaced by a more dynamic people", meaning Germans." -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 04:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Ninja Diannaa: @ Menacinghat: @ Generalrelative: Is it time to have a conversation about the photo being repeatedly deleted and reinserted?
The Mismeasure of Man documents the history of research like that depicted in this photo and used to "prove" that whites in the US were genetically superior to Negros. He does not discuss the Nazis. There are doubtless other work that discuss how scientific research like that in this image were used by Hitler and his supporters to justify the Holocaust and other mistreatment of anyone not meeting their definition of healthy Aryan.
The text may need to be modified, but I think the photo belongs here. Comments? DavidMCEddy ( talk) 15:03, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
What about Basques? Una esvástica sobre el Bidasoa mentions the documentary Im Lande der Basken that shows the interest of Herbert Brieger about the Basques, but the impression I got is that this interest was limited to a small faction of the Nazis. Did the racial theorists judge the Basques? -- Error ( talk) 23:57, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
To just Lebensraum (living space) for Germans, the Nazis later described Slavs, mainly the Poles, Serbs and Russians, along with Jews and Romani (Gypsies) as “subhumans”.
I think that's supposed to be "To justify". Anyway, this sentence cites Rosenberg's Mythus p. 234. I didn't find anything on page 234, and using ctrl+f I didn't find anything about Serbs in the whole book. Also, the sentence sounds like it's talking about Nazis in power justifying an ongoing or planned policy, so citing a 1930 ideological work seems misleading. HonestManBad ( talk) 22:04, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
It talks about "The text seems to address the European races in descending orders in the Nazi racial hierarchy: the Nordic race (including the Phalic sub-race)". Phalic sub-race? ~~~~ Rafstr ( talk) 08:35, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
The standard view - still seen as valid by non-racist experts - was that they were an offshoot from German and Scandinavian populations.
A valid description of the wider view was also removed.
I've called it Good Faith, but it could be someone trying to cover up the degree to which similar ideas flourished in England. GwydionM ( talk) 09:15, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
Recent mass additions by Sr L adds WP:UNDUE amount of material about a subjects such as "Arabs" and "Spaniards" subtopics into the article and violates WP:PROPORTION. Some of those material relies on WP:OLDSOURCES or predatory journals (such as drafts, undue reliance on local newspapers, etc.). Such low-quality sources should not be used in contentious topics like these. I suggest the involved editor to have them fixed; otherwise, it is best to revert the article back to a stable revision.
It is also generally advised to not add a very large amount of material in a single edit (it is cumbersome to review). -- WikiLinuz { talk} 16:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Czello Hi, about this -- It seems that the source is okay, but I agree that relying on one source for this is not great. I haven't read the whole cited book chapter, but it seems like the claims are supported. I have formatted the reference and did some copyedits. I think that the way forward would be to find another supporting source. Do you still support removing? — Alalch E. 09:35, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Why put this in the article:
"unlike mid 19th century English race theorists, who believed they were superior to the Catholic Irish and tried to claim that Celts were less evolved as subhuman nonwhite others"
Ignoring the juvenile prose, exactly what do "mid 19th Century race theorists" have to do with Nazi racial views? And who are these "English race theorists"? English "race theorists" held a range of views although it is certainly true that the "Anglo-Saxonists" thought the Celts were inferior. But "Celts" were not just Irish -they were Welsh, Cornish, Highland Scottish. And it is one thing to say "English race theorists" thought Celts were "inferior", but to leap to "non-white" is theoretical overreach.
How about sticking to what Hitler and the Nazis thought about Celts and leave "mid 19th Century English race theorists" out of it? Jonathan f1 ( talk) 09:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)