![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Was the cross always a war memorial, or was it only turned into one after the legal challenges were put forth? From the way this Auguest 22, 2001 article reads it appears like it was not a war memorial until it was turned into one by the Mt. Soledad Memorial Association after that group won the bid to purchase it in 1998. Also, this is the issue challenged by the judge in the most recent ruling. -- Serge 22:12, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
That is true, Serge. For 50 years the cross stood without any designation whatsoever as a "war memorial". No memorial services were EVER held there until this millenium. The only services ever held there prior to the lawsuits, were Easter Sunday services. THe "war memorial" was concocted to avoid the plain unconstitutionality of the cross on public land. --
66.54.170.187
00:48, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, I found a 1985 AAA map of the "San Diego Area" at my parents house, and it identified it as the "Easter Cross". -- Serge 02:46, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The article states that on March 8, 2005 the San Diego City Council voted against a proposal to transfer the land to the National Park Service, but a recent article posted on Forbes.com says, "...Congress agreed to make the area a national veterans memorial, and San Diego residents voted to transfer the land to the federal government." Which is correct? -- cellswo1
http://www.forbes.com/technology/ebusiness/feeds/ap/2006/07/07/ap2865145.html
Answers.com is a wikipedia mirror site. So obviously it's unusable as a "source." The 1985 AAA map referred to is from this page. I marked it citation needed so it can be confirmed. -- Perspective 15:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Is it relevant that Philip Paulson is an atheist? We don't state the religions of the other relevant individuals.
Is the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) involved with the Mt. Soledad cross case? Answer: No. James McElroy [1] is the only attorney of record of Plaintiff Philip Paulson, and the ACLU attorneys are not involved in any way with Plaintiff Philip Paulson's case in either the jurisdictional federal courts or the California State courts or any other para-legal capacity. 68.105.121.34 05:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Note to MFNickster-you should set up a user page so you can be contacted for clarification on some of your comments. Arodb 21:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I just reverted a series of three changes made from IP address 66.75.40.183 on July 13, 2006. I reverted these changes because they violated WP:NPOV. Here are some examples:
Mixed in among these changes were some bits of relevant facts that, if presented in a manner that did not violate NPOV, would probably improve the article. -- Serge 14:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I propose we move the majority of the cross-related content to a new article, Paulson v. City of San Diego, since that topic has now grown to dominate this article which is, after all, about the mountain itself. There's some precedent for this kind of split, e.g. Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow being separate from the Michael Newdow article. MFNickster 18:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Although I am an expert on the topic of Mount Soledad, I am a newbie to Wikipedia. I am studying the Policies and Guidelines and will try get it right. Having the article under the title Paulson v. City of San Diego would not be appropriate for this "Cross Controversy" since there has been numerous titles of various cases in both federal and state jurisdictions. Philip Paulson 21:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I have been accused by an anonymous source of showing a bias in presenting facts in the Mt. Soledad Article. Here are two material facts to the Mount Soledad title that I inserted in the Article: I entered the insertion for June 26, 2006 and July 19, 2006 in the Article. Additionally, a very significant material fact was omitted from the Article, which I inserted: The Peters Resolution and Proposition K. 68.105.121.34 12:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
My Reply to MFNickster, Actually, I think I am through editing the Article and have supplied important references to support certain insertions. I have diligently put in my best and highest efforts to be objective about all the facts and to inquire into all matters that are substantive and relevant to the Mount Soledad Article. If you can point out in particular detail the weasel words, that you suggest I have been using, then I would attempt to remedy those words with more appropriate ones. 14:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The current citation for the KKK cross burning review of To Kill a Mockingbird does not provide any evidence the Mount Soledad cross was burnt down by the KKK. Although it may be true, a better source is needed. -- Ari 17:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
DATE: April 28, 1989 SUBJECT: Crosses on Mount Soledad and Presidio Park REQUESTED BY: George Loveland, Director, Park and Recreation Department PREPARED BY: Mary Kay Jackson, Deputy City Attorney
"Mt. Soledad Cross. "The original cross on Mt. Soledad was erected in 1913 by private citizens of La Jolla and Pacific Beach. It was destroyed by vandals ten years later and rebuilt by private citizens, but was destroyed in 1952 by a severe windstorm. Again a group of private citizens raised the funds for a new cross. When the latest cross was dedicated in 1954, it was dedicated as a memorial to the military casualties of the World Wars and the Korean conflict. At that time the Mt. Soledad Memorial Association was formed by a group of citizens to help promote and maintain the park. The land on which the cross is located was originally owned by the City and dedicated as a public park in 1916 by Ordinance No. 6670, subsequent to the building and dedication of the original cross." 68.105.121.34 01:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Here is the documentary evidence of a cross burning on Mt. Soledad in this citation: "In 1923, when a black family rented a house on the outskirts of town, the Ku Klux Klan burned a cross on Mt Soledad." [3]
“From: Lynn Haney, Gregory Peck: A Charmed Life, Carroll & Graf Publishers: New York, NY (2003), pages 44-45:
Like Jem and Scout in To Kill a Mockingbird, Greg was discovering there was an undercurrent of evil amidst the quotidian joys of La Jolla... In 1923, when a black family rented a house on the outskirts of town, the Ku Klux Klan burned a cross on Mt Soledad.
'None of us youngsters knew what it was all about,' said Greg. 'But even with the sheets we could recognize some of the hot bloods of the town. They made quite an impression on us.
...Started [by Southern Baptists] after the Civil War, the KKK experienced resurgence in the 1920s. Members of the terrorist KKK presented themselves as defenders of the white against the black, of Gentile against Jew, and of Protestant against Catholic. They thus traded on the newly inflamed fears of credulous small-towners in places like La Jolla. Their message appealed to ordinary men with an infantile love of hocus-pocus and a lust for secret adventure. By setting a cross ablaze in the night, they aroused fears of burning houses, beatings and sometimes lynching.
When Greg [Peck] was older he was able to appreciate the immense power of movies as propaganda. As Darryl Zanuck liked to say: 'The movies are the greatest political fact in the world today.' In the case of the KKK, the organization benefited greatly from D W Griffith's The Birth of a Nation (1915). This controversial, explicitly racist movie set up a major censorship battle over its vicious, extremist depiction of African Americans. Nonetheless, the film was a huge box-office moneymaker, raking in $18 million by the start of the talkies. It was the most profitable film for over two decades, until Walt Disney's Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937).” [4] 68.105.121.34 01:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
During the 1920's, San Diego, along with many other Southwestern cities and towns, witnessed a new emergence of the Ku Klux Klan, a rebirth of the older secret organization that, in the nineteenth century, had targeted newly freed slaves in the South. The new Klan of the 1920s was a racist as well as a anti-immigrant organization targeting new immigrants and Jews as well as African Americans. In San Diego, the Ku Klux Klan particularly targeted Mexican immigrants. Thousand of Mexican newcomers were crossing into California every year lured by the demand for laborers in the fields and in the newly developed suburbs. There the Mexicans encountered other immigrants, white Midwestern Protestants, who were eager to find fortune in the west. For many of these white immigrants the Klan, as well as fundamentalist religious organizations, offered a solution for the anxieties they felt as they encountered a new environment and new peoples.1
While there have been several monographs on the Klan in the 1920s, Klan activities in Southern California have been ignored by most scholars. The Klan continues to exist under a new name, the White Aryan Resistance, and some of its main forerunners are from San Diego. There is an unbroken narrative of this hateful association in San Diego and its legacy has never been told.2
-- 1. The classic work on the rebirth of the KKK is Charles Alexander, The Ku Klux Klan in the Southwest (Lexington: University of Kentucky Press, 1965).
-- 2. See Richard Melching, "The Activities of the Ku Klux Klan in Anaheim, California, 1923-1925," Southern California Quarterly, LVI, 2, Summer, 1974 68.105.121.34 01:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
In the 1920s, with the Ku Klux Klan much in evidence in San Diego, the Forum invited a Klan leader to explain what it was all about. Catholic, Jewish and Negro factions tried to prevent the Klan's Dr. L.F. Lukie from speaking. But the Forum presented him on schedule. Dr. Lukie did his job well. Feeling was so intense in the auditorium, the speaker was rushed to a back room and locked in until the crowd dispersed.
-- Rev. John Ruskin Clark, Radio Address, December 2, 1962.
[5]
68.105.121.34
01:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
It's true, of course, but not relevant to his role in the Mt. Soledad Veterans Memorial saga, and is a NPOV problem. If it were relevant, then it requires an explanation. Also de-emphasized the fact that Cunningham and Hunter are Republicans... the key point of their involvement is that they are Congressmen, not that they are Republicans. AndrewSaint 00:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
The second paragraph in the lead section needs to be rewritten to summarize that there is a cross controversy and then a new paragraph should be added as a lead at the top of the "The Cross Controversy" heading that summarizes the current status of the various cross cases. I'd also like to see the 2005 and 2006 sections as summary paragraphs, similar to the other dated sections, rather than comprehensive listings of every action taken on the case. A summary of the major actions and themes of the case would both shorten the article and make it easier to read.
I also added two fact tags to the text next to the votes, but stopped after two even though there are other citations needed. Generally, I'd like to see references for any votes.
I'd try to do the above editing myself, but I trust that someone else more intimately connected to the case would do a better job.
Finally, I should mention that I removed a single event from the 2006 list regarding a letter to the editor by a member of the public that stated the cross should be converted into a peace symbol. Everything else in the section described legal activities and a single letter to the editor in 2006 when dozens of similar letters have been printed or blogged elsewhere just seems trivial to me. Having removed this, though, I wouldn't mind seeing a new section added to the Cross Controversy section outlining public reception to the controversy and including alternative suggestions that have garnered some degree of notoriety or public support. Orayzio 18:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not clear about how removing facts,"comprehensive listings of every action taken on the case" from the article is in the best interest of the reader. The most significant issues appear to be in the article and your words "every action" is unclear to me. Please explain. Thank you. Philip Paulson 14:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
For those who aren't keeping up on San Diego news, Philip Paulson died yesterday. [6] RIP, Phil. MFNickster 20:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
needs more breadth, especially in ecology and early calif history Anlace 20:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
A notice needs to be listed at the top of the page regarding the neutrality of this article. Certain phrases and statements (ie. "'War Memorial,'" "obvious symbol of the Christian religion") should be changed.
However, judging by the talk on this page it seems as if ACLU members are firmly in control of the article. -- 68.238.209.193 02:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Last year there seemd to have been a consensus to split the page. See #Proposed move above. Apparently the split was never done. I think it'd be a good idea still and propose that we proceed. Splittling would allow this artilce to be about the physical place while the other could focus on the legal and political aspects. The article is now unbalanced. "Mount Soledad cross controversy" was the favored name. Any objections? - Will Beback · † · 08:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Mount Soledad. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:20, 24 December 2017 (UTC)