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Most sites now say he was born 10 September (os)/22 September (ns) 1875. But Slonimsky places it at 22 September (os)/4 October (ns). The date 10 April also appears in some refs, the 10/4 of 10 April being a transposition of 4 October’s 4/10, so these numbers seem to have some credibility. Are we certain that he was born 10 September under the Julian calendar, and not 22 September? --
JackofOz (
talk)
01:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Information from the Lietuvių (Lithuanian(?!)) Wiki-entry
The Lithuaninan (I guess) wiki-entry has some info this ine is lacking, if someone who speaks lithuanian could transfer that info it would be great.
This article spells Ciurlionis's first name as "Mikalojus"; but I have seen the variant "Mikolajus" (exchanging the "o" and "a"). Is there any basis for this? Is it one of those things that cannot be resolved, or is a reason known for the wrong version (whichever that is)? Just wondering.
M.J.E. (
talk)
12:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Surely, "Mikalojus" and "Mikolajus" has nothing in common by spelling in Lithuanian language, so "Mikolajus" is some kinda mistake I guess. By spelling its similar to russian "Николай" (in Lithuanian "Nikolajus") and could be mistaken.
Now
Scathis edit is simply this close || to qualify for vandalism. I imagine also that Lotje pic that up by watching my page and decided to remove circa 70 % of the works. Do me a favor Lotje, stop watching my page.
Hafspajen (
talk)
17:45, 15 March 2015 (UTC)reply
Per
WP:IG: ON English Wikipedia the galleries are NOT discouraged for quite a while. Like since 2009. Please see also this discussion here,
Talk:Charles Marion Russell. It is standard actually to have galleries, so please don't remove them. Images in the gallery collectively do have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. Galleries are not discouraged. See also
Rembrandt, just look at that gallery. The same for using image size larger than thumb, exception from the general rule is most art and art related articles that they do fall into this category.
Hafspajen (
talk)
18:08, 15 March 2015 (UTC)reply
The editors who put together this page in 2014 had good reason for including extensive illustrations. To the meager extent that he has been known in the West, Čiurlionis was known primarily as a composer; as an artist, not much. Our presentation is designed to correct that deficiency, and to show how his visionary artistic style complements his
ethereal music.
Sca (
talk)
21:23, 15 March 2015 (UTC)reply
Also
this edit here, on a Dutch article... from 10 March 2015 with edit notice - (can anyone stop Haspajen with his stupid galleries? cant he contribute in positive manner by writing something intelligent?) - well, I know only about two people currently agains galleries, and serial-removing galleries -one is Lotje, a Dutch editor, who we had this discussion a couple of times and she still removes them when she can, the other is a French guy.
Hafspajen (
talk)
23:27, 15 March 2015 (UTC)reply
Kings' Fairy Tale, a painting by the Lithuanian painter, composer, and writer Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis (1875–1911) completed in 1908–1909. During his lifetime, Čiurlionis created about 300 paintings, composed about 400 pieces of music, and wrote many literary works and poems. Considered representative of the
fin de siècle epoch, he contributed to the
symbolism and
art nouveau movements.Painting:
Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis
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Marcelus in his reverting edit summary wrote "not needed here, in the article it's explained that he was born into Polish family" - Well, he was NOT born to Polish family. What is more, at this time the area was part of the Russian Empire and under enforced Russification. So whatever official birth documents he had, they were in Russian.
Lokys dar Vienas (
talk)
20:28, 26 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Also Czurlanis in not a Polish version from Lithuanian and it does not sound Polish at all, but it is a calque from Russian Чурлянис . Polish construction would be Czurlon, like Giedraitis -> Giedroyć.
@
Cukrakalnis So you are planning to add Russian name to every single Lithuanian, Polish, Georgian etc. figure that was born in Russian Empire? Do you think that's reasonable? I only added Polish version of Čiurlionis names because he was born in a Polish-speaking family and was using that name in his youth. That's literally in every single biography of his, he only later learned Lithuanian etc.
Marcelus (
talk)
16:15, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Why are you imagining things that no one ever said? I never said that I planned to add a russified name to all ethnically non-Russian citizens of the Russian Empire. However, adding such names is useful in helping people to find more information about that person in that other language. I don't understand why you are telling me why you added his polonized name to this article, because I was not removing it from the
WP:LEDE. I don't understand why you are making such a big deal out of it.
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
16:31, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@Cukrakalnis I already said what I think: you are actively trying to hide the Polish name Čiurlionis. And don't say you didn't remove it from the lead because you did that, pushing it down to the references
Marcelus (
talk)
17:09, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Cukrakalnis - Remember what you just said above -->..However, adding such names is useful in helping people to find more information about that person in that other language.
@
Cukrakalnis Well, let’s see... the Polish name disappeared from the lead after your edit
here. Let me look
again... let’s check
again. Nope. Not there, the name is gone from the lead, it was pushed down the pipe into ref. link. So? What happened? 🙂 - GizzyCatBella🍁17:38, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
GizzyCatBella Adding a Russian name does nothing here. We don't do it for the hundreds of other characters who lived in the Russian Empire but were not Russian. Čiurlionis's biography is divided into two periods in terms of national identification and the language of everyday life. Early youth, when brought up in Polish culture and language, he felt Polish. And also the later period when, under the influence of the Lithuanian national revival, he became an ardent Lithuanian patriot. Still in 1901, he wrote to a friend: “We should be proud to be Poles […]. Our land, our freedom, our rights have been taken away, but our speech, our hearts, our intelligence will not be taken from us even by force. Moreover, Čiurlionis was a talented man of letters and wrote only in Polish. This does not mean that I want to make him a Pole by force. But it does not mean that his connection to Polish culture or the fact of using a Polish-sounding name should be hidden.
Marcelus (
talk)
18:44, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
What's the relevance of a Polish name to a Lithuanian who was born in Lithuania and lived in Prussia? Should we add a Polish name to the article about
Alexander the Great because there are books where he is called Aleksander Macedoński?
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
17:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay. So now lets check the
Prussia connection to Poland during his life-time...hmn.. ruled by Poland see Polnisch-Preußen..🤔 - so? Still no connection? Should I continue? - GizzyCatBella🍁17:54, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Martynas Mažvydas left Vilnius in 1546, a year before Sigismund II Augustus moved his court from Krakow to Vilnius (temporarily).
You still haven't answered my question why a lang-pl name is relevant to
Martynas Mažvydas. Did he publish any Polish books? No.
Is he known to have spoken Polish? Yeah, but he also spoke Latin, Ruthenian and German. So, clearly, there is no reason to add a Polish name to a person simply because he spoke Polish, anymore than it is to add a Latin, Ruthenian and German names to that same person.
@
Cukrakalnis but adding the Polish version of his name does’t make him Polish. He is still a pure Lithuanian. I showed you the connection to Poland above... and as you just said here earlier - adding such names is useful in helping people to find more information about that person in that other language. - GizzyCatBella🍁18:08, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Cukrakalnis @
GizzyCatBella I added Polish version of Mažvydas name, because he was translator from Polish to Lithuanian, his Catechismus is largely translation of Polish book of
Jan Seklucjan. He also translated Polish songs written by Jurgis Zablockis/Jerzy Zabłocki. By the number of polonisms in his writing it is assumed that his Polish was actually better than Lithuanian. According to Jurgis Gerullis he was educated in Polish school. There is also the thing mentioned by @
GizzyCatBella of Prussia being part of Poland. That was my reasoning
Marcelus (
talk)
18:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
This isn't fully correct. Aleksander the Great has his Ancient Greek name in parentheses, Napoleon has his Anglicised name and the birth name in the lead, Joseph Stalin has his Anglicised and birth, Georgian name in the lead. But overall these aren't good examples because these are three well-known figures, that have grounded in the literature English variants of their names. It's not the case with Čiurlionis.
Marcelus (
talk)
18:35, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Cukrakalnis I already answered this question. Čiurlionis is Lithuanian form of his name that is used in English literature, names such as Alexander the Great, Joseph Stalin, Napoleon Bonaparte are Anglicised forms (not Iosif, but Joseph etc.)
Marcelus (
talk)
18:48, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Well, do I have news for you 😃 Putting people's foreign-language names into Efn is not *hiding* them and including these names into an Efn is standard practice throughout Wikipedia. Seems like you're the incorrect one here, mister 😉
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
18:56, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
They are certainly hided, because they are less visible. It's certainly not a standard (maybe you invented it?), and even your three examples aren't proves of that, because as I showed to you alternative variants of the names are still visible in the leads of these articles.
Marcelus (
talk)
19:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcelus - Mikalojus Čiurlionis (he did not use this version of the name, because it was created several decades after his death) did not know Lithuanian, and his native language was Polish. He kept diaries in Polish throughout his life, all of his literary work was written in Polish, as well as most of his letters.Is this true? GizzyCatBella🍁19:16, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Although now known as an advocate of Lithuanian nationalism, Čiurlionis began his life in rather different circumstances. He was born in Senoji Varėna, a town now in southeastern Lithuania but then part of the Russian Empire; as was customary for educated Lithuanians at the time,
his family spoke only Polish. - 🤦🏻♀️ GizzyCatBella🍁19:30, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
I was pointing that out because
WP:REFLOOP. I reiterate, I never removed the lang-pl template from the article or the
WP:LEDE. After all, a note in the lede is still in the lede. It's just that Marcelus and you are very opposed to putting two lang templates into an Efn, which you both misinterpret as a removal of the lang-pl template, which is objectively false.
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
19:52, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
He certainly was writing only in Polish, that's for sure, he started to learn Lithuanian only in 1907 and never felt fluent enough to write in it, especially poetry. But he died in 1911 so it's understandable. As for his name, I'm not sure
Marcelus (
talk)
19:51, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
They are certainly not hidden (
definition: not easy to find). Having to move a cursor a few pixels to the top-right corner of a person's name in the first sentence is by no means not easy to find.
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
19:33, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
I suggest that everything between the first ( and the ; be put into an Efn, for clarity's sake (as of this
). There are three different Polish versions of his name: Czurlanis, Cziurlionis, Cziurlianis.
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
20:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
I guess. And again, until we resolve the issue by making it obligatory to use both versions of names for people and places connected to the
Commonwealth (Polish and Lithuanian) this will never end. We'll always have somebody from Poland or Lithuania attempting to claim them for themselves. (I’m not talking about you two but about the future) GizzyCatBella🍁21:10, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Hi, hope you are alright with me stating an opinion to this? I think that the version predating these changes was the most neutral. I do not see the point of adding a Russian translation on English Wikipedia given the geo-political situation then [and now], unless he was an important contributor to the generic culture and visual arts of Imperial Russia. Furthermore, this article was not assigned to
Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia. I also don't mind removing the [modern] Polish translation from the lead as long as it is mentioned in the "Early life" section as the name under which he was born and known in his youth.
Merangs (
talk)
22:20, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcelus: - I can see this was questioned in other sections of the talk page. In contemporary times it is Czurlanis, widely accepted by historians. I don't mind older spellings, but they are usually omitted from lead sections or most articles.
Merangs (
talk)
22:33, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
GizzyCatBella, all these variations on Čiurlionis' surname should be included for the sake of comprehensiveness.
@
Marcelus, why did you assume that I ran out of arguments? If my unresponsiveness was what prompted you to say that, then I inform you that the real reason for me not responding was the fact that I went to sleep.
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
13:37, 10 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Cukrakalnis You are simply reaching for arguments that are fundamentally illogical: it does not make sense to write down every possible orthographic form of the name, which are often simply the result of spelling changes, mistakes, ignorance, translation from a third language, and so on. In particular, "Cziurlianis" is extremely rare. If we did that we could give a dozen different forms to every historical figure that can be found in the sources. That is not the point here. The purpose of giving alternative forms of a name, is to indicate the connection of a given figure to different linguistic and cultural circles. With Čiurlionis, it is the connection to Lithuanian and Polish culture, in that order. Which I think is well reflected in the current form.
Marcelus (
talk)
15:29, 10 January 2023 (UTC)reply
How is including all different orthographic forms of somebody's name in any way illogical? It's actually rather useful and helps Wikipedia be more inclusive.
Just glance at the frequency of different variations of Čiurlionis's surname in Polish that can be found on Google Books:
Czurlanis - (p.210,
[11]), (p. 371,
[12]), (p.72,
[13]), (p.25,
[14]), (p.669,
[15]), (p.693,
[16]), ... However, among the first four results after searching about Czurlanis on Google Books, one is about "George Czurlanis" and three are about "Czurlanis v. Albanese". In fact, on the first page of results, after searching for Czurlanis, only one result of Czurlanis is related to
Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis.
Cziurlionis - (p.230,
[17]), (p.296,
[18]), (p.11,
[19]), (p. 275,
[20]), (p.39,
[21]). Older German-language sources also sometimes use the version of Cziurlionis (p.177,
[22]), (p.10
[23]).
This is not a 17th-century person we're talking about, where so many different variations of their name would be understandable, but we're talking about a 20th century painter. How is this even supposed to be possible? This is already after the Polish language was standardized. Well, at least I suppose so.
The purpose of giving alternative forms of a name, is to indicate the connection of a given figure to different linguistic and cultural circles. Since when? Is this to be found somewhere in Wikipedia's rules and standards?
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
12:54, 11 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Great reform of ortography took place in 1936. Earlier there were various standards. Plus names aren't set in stone, mine name rather simple, can be spelled at least three ways. Did you check Lithuanian variants of Čiurlionis name?
Marcelus (
talk)
12:59, 11 January 2023 (UTC)reply
I hadn't checked the Lithuanian variants of Čiurlionis name before your suggestion, although I had previously checked its etymology on lt.wiki
[26], where it said that "Attempts were made to derive the surname Čiurlíonis from the name of the bird čiurlỹs (
Common swift)".
Thanks for the suggestion, I have now learnt that in earlier times, there were variations of Čiurlionis' name in Lithuanian as well - Čurlianis and Čurlionis. Apparently his name is written as Čurlonis in Latvian.
In
Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis, there is a dispute about using the
Template:Efn for foreign-language names (Russian and Polish). I justify this move by pointing to articles where that is already the case:
Joseph Stalin (Russian and Georgian names are in Efn),
Napoleon Bonaparte (French, Italian and Corsican names are in Efn), etc. Two users, @
GizzyCatBella and @
Marcelus, are against this and insist on removing the Efn. One of the users, Marcelus, accuses me of trying to "hide" Čiurlionis' Polish name (
[27]), while simultaneously removing the Russian name (
[28],
[29]). Should the foreign-language names be put in an Efn or not?
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
18:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Well, this is probably one of the least honest RfCs I've ever read. It is worth adding what I already wrote to the author of the RfC in the discussion above, but he chose to omit it, that even in the examples he gave, the alternative forms of names, namely what the character was born under, are given in the main part of the article. And
Template:Efn contains only additional information that would overly stretch the lead of the article (e.g. spelling Stalin's name in Cyrillic and Georgian). It's also not a standard as Cukrakalnis suggests, just a notation used in the few articles he could find (the third
Alexander the Great was dropped, apparently because it didn't fit the narrative). Moreover, the Russian form that I removed, Cukrakalnis added today, just to have an excuse to transfer the Polish form of the name Čiurlionis to the reference.
As I wrote in the discussion above: adding a Russian name does nothing here. We don't do it for the hundreds of other characters who lived in the Russian Empire but were not Russian. Čiurlionis's biography is divided into two periods in terms of national identification and the language of everyday life. Early youth, when brought up in Polish culture and language, he felt Polish. And also the later period when, under the influence of the Lithuanian national revival, he became an ardent Lithuanian patriot. Still in 1901, he wrote to a friend: “We should be proud to be Poles […]. Our land, our freedom, our rights have been taken away, but our speech, our hearts, our intelligence will not be taken from us even by force". Moreover, Čiurlionis was a talented man of letters and wrote only in Polish. This does not mean that I want to make him a Pole by force. But it does not mean that his connection to Polish culture or the fact of using a Polish-sounding name should be hidden.
Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis[a] (born Mikołaj Konstanty Czurlanis; 22 September [
O.S. 10 September] 1875 – 10 April [
O.S. 28 March] 1911) was a Lithuanian painter, composer and writer in Polish.
I would agree that the Bonaparte and Stalin examples are acceptable - assuming it can be agreed what is birth name was. If there is any dispute about that just stick with Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis. It is, after all en.wikipedia. I can't see that multiple renderings of the names is helpful.
Putting something into a note is not hiding it. I recommend you read
MOS:LEADCLUTTER. Doing what you suggest is a clear case of overload. The second paragraph you wrote was @ GizzyCatBella, not me.
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
20:01, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Cukrakalnis I wasn't replying to your directly, but it was a voice in the discussion. How is there an overload in case of Čiurlionis, but there is no overload in the
Napoleon Bonaparte article, which you yourself indicated as a standard solution. We keep the efn template as you wanted, so there is no cluster.
Marcelus (
talk)
20:10, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
New information has been found, which indicates that there is indeed a need to use an Efn for all the names used for Čiurlionis, because there are Three different ways of writing Čiurlionis' name in Polish
[30]. Thus, a comparison between the situation in Napoleon's article and Čiurlionis' article is faulty.
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
20:21, 9 January 2023 (UTC)reply
What answer am I avoiding? Could you be more specific? There are so many different answers on this talk page that I honestly don't know what you're referring to.
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
13:30, 10 January 2023 (UTC)reply
My original answer to that was that Doing what you suggest is a clear case of overload. I wasn't avoiding your question. Also, how would we define/find the name he was born with? The baptismal record? The first case of where his name is written down? I'm genuinely unsure. Because in
Laurynas Gucevičius' case, we do have a clear baptismal record - Laurentius Masulis. Is the same the case with Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis?
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
17:42, 11 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Not to mention that Čiurlionis' name might have been first written down in Russian/russified, considering that he was born in lands that were part of the Russian Empire...
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
17:44, 11 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Why so sure, Marcelus? His father was a peasant from
Dzūkija and his mother was of German descent. The other members of the family hardly seem to have grown up in a 'Polish' household:
another brother,
Jonas Čiurlionis [
lt (1891–1955), was an organist, but also became a teacher of the Lithuanian language
He had three other brothers - Petras, Konstantinas and Povilas.
his only sister,
Jadvyga Čiurlionytė [
lt (1898–1992) was a researcher of Lithuanian folklore, culture and art - she even wrote two books of memoirs about M. K. Čiurlionis. Seems like necessary sources for any serious and grounded discussion about him.
Why? Many Lithuanian activists grew up in Polish-speaking households, these biographies seem pretty standard. Also it's already well-sourced in the article that he was speaking Polish all his life, and begun learning Lithuanian as a 30 y/o. Similiar story with his wife, she was born as Zofia Kimunt
Marcelus (
talk)
19:17, 12 January 2023 (UTC)reply
"How and when the Čiurlionis family started speaking the
Polish language is not entirely clear. When [Konstantinas] married and played the organ in
Liškiava,
Varėna and
Ratnyčia [
lt, he most likely spoke
Dzūkian, because it would have been difficult to separate themselves from the parishioners. Meanwhile,
Druskininkai, which grew from a Lithuanian village, "due to the annual invasion of Polish tourists", was gradually
polonized. "When my father went to play the organ in Druskininkai in 1878," writes sister Jadvyga, "it was demanded that he know Polish ... Where did our father, that lovely hunter from the village of
Guobiniai [
lt, learn Polish - it's hard to say." Maybe at school, or maybe while dealing with courtiers and preparing to become an organist. All I can say is that in my time (at the beginning of the 20th century) my father spoke Polish correctly, of course, not without the admixture of local Lithuanianisms. However, both himself and the children deliberately avoided imitating the Warsaw pronunciation and intonation. Even those brothers who studied in Warsaw, although they knew the literary Polish language perfectly, kept their "Lithuanian" intonation at home and made fun of those from Druskininkai who tried to lisp in the Warsaw manner. What's more, in our house there was a common saying: you are Lithuanian after all, or: handsome man — real Lithuanian. The children had learned Lithuanian folk songs from their parents, and they all knew how to communicate with the Lithuanian villagers."
(Translated from Kaip ir kada Čiurlioniai persisvėrė lenkų kalbon, ne visai aišku. Kai vedė ir vargoninkavo Liškiavoj, Varėnoj ir Ratnyčioj, greičiausiai kalbėjo dzūkiškai, nes išsiskirti iš parapijiečių būtų buvę sunku. Tuo tarpu Druskininkai, išaugę iš lietuviško kaimo, „dėlei lenkų kurortininkų kasmetinės invazijos", buvo pamažėl sulenkinti. „Jau vykstant tėvui 1878 metais vargoninkauti į Druskininkus, — rašo sesuo Jadvyga, — iš jo buvo reikalaujama mokėti lenkų kalbą ... Iš kur tėvas, tas mūsų mielas Guobinių kaimo medžiotojas, išmoko lenkiškai — sunku pasakyti. Gal mokykloje, o gal susidurdamas su dvariškiais ir ruošdamasis tapti vargoninku. Tik tiek galiu pasakyti, kad mano laikais (XX a. pradžioj) tėvas taisyklingai kalbėjo lenkiškai, žinoma, ne be vietinių lituanizmų priemaišo. Tačiau ir pats, ir vaikai sąmoningai vengė pamėgdžioti varšuvietišką tarmę ir kalbos intonaciją. Net tie broliai, kurie mokėsi Varšuvoje, nors ir puikiai mokėjo literatūrinę lenkų kalbą, namie išlaikė ,lietuviškąją' intonaciją ir šaipėsi iš tų druskininkiečių, kurie bandė varšuvietiškai švebeldžiuoti. Kas be to, o mūsų namuose dažnas buvo posakis: ,juk lietuvis esi', arba: ,gražus vyras — tikras lietuvis'. Vaikai iš tėvų buvo išmokę lietuviškų liaudies dainelių, ir visi mokėjo šiaip taip susikalbėti su lietuviais kaimiečiais" (Atsm 22)
[31]).
Considering this, Čiurlionis' birth name could very well have been Čiurlionis instead of Czurlanis. After all, both of his parents were born Lithuanian-speakers. Also, a statement with only one source from a book by the frequently controversial
Timothy Snyder, which is a brief overview instead of an in-depth analysis of Čiurlionis' life, leaves something to be desired.
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
14:03, 13 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Literally every single source says that his family household was Polish-speaking, and that he started to learn Lithuanian later in life. He wrote in Polish, signed his letters as "Mikołaj Konstanty Czurlanis" or "Kostek", actually around 1906 he started to sign them as "Kastukas"
Marcelus (
talk)
21:00, 13 January 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Cukrakalnis You yourself pointed out the the solution in Napoleon Bonaparte is good, now you are saying it's an overload. You are contradicting yourself. Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis isn't cleary his birth name.
Marcelus (
talk)
18:40, 11 January 2023 (UTC)reply
I made it clear when I was initially pointing to the articles of
Alexander the Great,
Napoleon Bonaparte and
Joseph Stalin, that I was doing so with the sole purpose of indicating that using Efn for foreign-language names is regular practice. Thus, I am not contradicting myself. Also, before claiming about someone's birth name, you must indicate the necessary sources (
WP:VERIFIABILITY), which directly support that.
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
19:16, 12 January 2023 (UTC)reply