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I've found that this article has very little operational information when compared to other sources, and many sentences come off as very malicious such as the line "The strategic goal was sound; cutting the Germans from their main supply line. However, this was a failure." While this is well and good, it is making a wide generalization when compared to other facets of the offensive. I am not claiming that the page is wrong, but that very little explanations are given. If it is alright, I would like to plan to add some of the following topics when I have time:
I also believe that when discussing victory a number of factors must be noted besides simply the numbers of casualties involved. While the Americans certainly weren't the first to break the Hindenburg line, nor the most effective at it, the confusion sustained from the offensive all but scattered many German army elements and diffused holes into the line for other forces to capture. Likewise, while original plans were achieved far too late (and could be considered a failure on that scale), it must be noted that by 3rd November that Americans had much of the German opposition in retreat, and following the breakout had advanced a great deal in proportion to the original progress-- mostly because of the horrible state the German Army was in. It seems a very difficult thing to sum up in terms of "American Victory" or "Marginal American Victory," since on one hand it was a victory in terms of a blow that had the Germans retreating rapidly and unable to regroup effectively starting by 3rd November in the targeted sectors, but on the other hand was an operational and strategic failure in terms of the battle plans and any semblance of a timeframe or troop cohesion.
Any comments would be appreciated, -- 68.113.199.134 06:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)Fingus
In terms of Marginal American Victory, would this be pertaining only to troop casualty numbers, since this was the campaign that essentially broke the hindenburg line and allowed for the allies on many sectors to start breaking through (and thereby casuing a major German retreat)?
That is simply NOT true at all, please learn some basic history of the war; the Hindenburg line was not in this secotr of the front line at all. And it was broken by a contemporary attack by British empire forces (the second battle of Cambrai). 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by Daniel Eyre ( talk 鈥 contribs) 07:56, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Actually it was just one of the many attacks that were driving the Germans back. The Hindenburg Line was truly smashed when the British captured the St Quentin Canal in October. Darkmind1970 10:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it should be listed as a Phyrric American victory due to the high casualty rates BritBoy 19:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
It was changed to "Allied Pyrrhic Victory" in the infobox, but that doesn't seem right to me. A Phyrric victory isn't just a victory with high losses, but one where the loss is devastating to the victor to the point where despite having fewer casualties and/or gaining the objective (otherwise it wouldn't be described as a victory at all) it puts the battle's winner at a later disadvantage. If meerly having high losses made for a phyrric victory than every non-overwhelming victory in large bloody battle would be Pyrrhic. twfowler ( talk) 23:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I have removed this link because it points to a WWII entry. Piet 14:32, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe this is the most lethal battle in American history. If it is not, please remove it from the article page. Captain Jackson 05:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
In terms of casualties received by both sides, American forces were unquestionably victorious, especiacially in light of the fact that they were surrounded, outnumber, and the French were not there to support them when they should have been. Moreover, as this was the battle that broke through the German lines and essentially ended the war, the word "marginal" is completely unappropriate. 141.161.177.65 16:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)Gabriel
With respect Gabriel, the Meuse Argonne did not contribute much to Allied victory and in terms of casualties received by both sides it would have been a tie. Frank, The Americans pierced the second line of the Hindenburg position on October 16, a goal that Pershing had set for the 26th of September. It wasn鈥檛 until October 31 that the third German defensive position of the Hindenburg Line was broken all along the front at the Meuse Argonne battle. By October 4th the British Armies had their part of the Hindenburg Line behind them. Brocky44 06:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This offensive failed to take its objectives and should be regarded as an Entente defeat. Although strategically; its forced dedication of German reserves and inflicted casualties contributed to the eventual defeat of Germany. 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by Daniel Eyre ( talk 鈥 contribs) 08:02, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I've just read the general Wikipedia article on the final Allied offensive (of which the Meuse-Argonne Offensive is a link) and the information regarding Allied forces involved is conflicting in each article. In the general article, this offensive is portrayed (I think more correctly) as a joint Allied offensive of which the American troops were a part of:
"Then on 26 September 1918 soldiers of the Australian Imperial Force, British Expeditionary Force, Canadian Corps, French Army and American Expeditionary Force began a combined offensive along much of the Western Front. The Hindenburg line was broken by Australian, British, Canadian and American troops within hours of the attack starting. This show of force forced the German High Command to accept that the war had to be ended. American numbers together with British and French combat effectiveness was destroying the German Army as an effective fighting force. However casualties remained heavy in all of the Allied fighting forces, as well as in the retreating German Army."
However, this article appears to be geared solelkfjdofaikdjlfkly around the American involvement and suggests that the American troops were the sole / at least dominant force in this attack. I think that this is a misrepresentation of events, and should be altered.
1. getting the individual article detail correct 2. getting the interrelationships correct - ie so the text of one article does not conflict with a related article. 3. avoiding "post hoc ergo propter hoc" logical fallacy about who "won the war". 4. and all the while respecting the various nations "claims" in the interests of avoiding flame wars.
The emphasis on US forces in this article is correct, however. Perhaps all of the articles need to be clearer on emphasising both the separateness of the actions (operationally) and their interrelationship at a strategic level. FrankDynan 05:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
U.S. Forces consisted of ten divisions of the U.S. First Army commanded by General John J. Pershing until October 16 and then by Lt. General Hunter Liggett. German forces consisted of approximately forty German divisions.
This info is all wrong it should say- 25 American and 4 French divisions attacked with 189 tanks along a front of 22 miles defended by 5 German divisions, 4 of which were described as low grade. Brocky44
I know there were four Austro-Hugarian divisions in the area. I would like to know more about the battles they fought. 鈥 Preceding unsigned comment added by Cvasii23 ( talk 鈥 contribs) 21:39, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
the article contradicts itself here, german casualties is 120,250 in the summary and 126,000 in the casualty section.
I was surprised to see that the casualty figures given in this article for the American Expeditionary Force at this engagement are higher than the 117,000 normally cited. I was equally surprised to see exact numbers given for the killed and wounded (but not the missing or captured) for the German Army at the Meuse-Argonne. All we usually get for the German losses is the claim of 100,000 made by the AEF themselves without any information from the other side. I would be very interested to see the sources for the figures given in this article.
In illustration of how vague appears to be our knowledge of the German loss at the Meuse-Argonne, I quote Paul F. Braim from his book, "The Test of Battle: The American Expeditionary Forces in the Meuse-Argonne Campaign" (Associated University Presses; Cranbury, New Jersey; 1987):
The First Army reported the capture of 26,000 prisoners of war in this campaign, though other statisticians cite only 16,000.
The number of prisoners taken should be a simple matter of record: yet the fog of war seems to have clouded it in this instance. Granted that the Battle of the Meuse-Argonne was the U.S.A.'s main battlefield contribution to an event as momentous as World War I, our knowledge of it is surprisingly poor. 鈥擳he preceding unsigned comment was added by Flonto ( talk 鈥 contribs) 21:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC). Flonto 21:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The article says, "The objective of the offensive was the railway hub at Sedan, which provided supply support for the German armies in the southeastern sector of the Western fonties." What are "fonties"? If it's a typo, I can't even hazard a guess from the context what it should be--fronts? Frontiers? MylesCallum ( talk) 01:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The Meuse-Argonne offensive involved the US 1st Army (composed of 12 US divisions under John Perishing) and the 4th French Army (31 French divisions commanded by Henri Gouraud) - however the article only talks about the US particpation.
The article needs to be edited to include the role, actions, casualties (etc.) of the French 4th Army.
MWadwell (
talk)
05:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Where did the information about the French vastly outnumbering American troops come from? According to Pershing's report after the battle, the Americans began the offensive with 15 divisions, to which the French added 6. To these figures, it must be remembered that the American divisions were approximately twice the size of the French divisions at the time (26,000 men). Pershing also cites a figure of more than 1,000,000 Americans in area by the fight's end.
Also, it's worth noting that Erich Ludendorff himself, in reflecting on the battle after the war, gave the credit for the success to the American effort, noting that the French were battle-weary and not particularly effective. Jrt989 ( talk) 17:00, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Further note 鈥 The United States in the First World War: An Encyclopedia, edited by Venzon and Miles, says the following on page 385: "A total of 1.2 million Americans were engaged in the campaign, of which 850,000 were combat troops. Twenty-two American divisions were engaged in the battle..." Again, it should be remembered that American divisions were twice the size of French and British divisions. Jrt989 ( talk) 20:21, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
While parts of the Venzon and Miles volume are useful historical material, the Braim contribution therein is a confused mishmash of numbers pertaining to the Meuse-Argonne front, the Argonne forest, and the overall Grand Offensive. Note also how Braim conflates fighting troops with support troops, in the U.S. case only. This is just not reliable material. Truth or consequences-2 ( talk) 18:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
The current casualty figures cited are highly inaccurate and need to be revised if they are to properly reflect the participation of the French. The current numbers (125,000 Allied, 100,000 German) in fact only represent American losses and American estimates of German casualies inflicted by American forces. French casualties (and total German casualties) are not, therefore, listed, but the way the infobox is worded it appears that they are. Unfortunately, I don't think this is going to be an easy problem to fix. American casualties are well accounted for, and officially stand at 26,277 killed and 95,786 wounded, for a total of 122,063 (see Ferrell, Robert H. America's Bloodiest Battle: Meuse-Argonne, 1918). I'm not sure where we can find the French and German numbers, but the casualty figures cannot remain as they are. Jrt989 ( talk) 01:56, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The image caption for the flag of the 157th Infantry Division is preposterously long. That amount of information should be on a page about the division, not in an image caption. Winterbadger ( talk) 16:45, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Why does the word "Offensive" have a capital "O"? There are many places in the text where the phrase has a lower case "o". Also, shouldn't the dash be an ndash: 鈥撀?
Axl 陇
[Talk] 09:25, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
:I agree and am changing it.
BeenAroundAWhile (
talk)
06:56, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm curious why the death of one soldier is mentioned with no reference to any impact on the battle as well as no citations. ([ [1]])
It might be in reference to this soldier: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wiozauke/military/RollofHonor.L-M.html LIBERATORE, FRANCESCHO, born in Raiano, Italy, February 29, 1896; son of Pasquale and Nainzeata (Susi) Liberatore; lives Belgium, Ozaukee County, Wis.; entered service at Port Washington, Wis., May 25, 1918; member Company D, 341st Infantry, 86th (Black Hawk) Division, transferred to Company B, 354th Infantry, 89th Division; rank, private; trained at Camp Grant, Ill., and Camp Upton, N. Y.; foreign station, France; battles, Argonne Forest. Killed in action in Argonne Forest, November 1, 1918. Buried at the Commune of Landres at St. Georges, Ardennes, France.
I'm removing it from the Legacy section. Habap ( talk) 19:03, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Not to downplay the mighty nation of Siam and their contribution to the war but... Why is Siam listed like a major ally in this battle?
The source linked is a piece from the journal of the Siam society dealing exclusively with Siamese participation in the war which isn't a great start and even then it doesn't mention how many troops Siam sent or where they fought, in fact it specifically mentions that they were mostly supply units and drivers. Even if we accept the source the as factual (which it seems to be) it really doesn't say that Siam was in any way a major contributor, just that they sent some volunteers to France and some of them fought.
Even making charitable assumptions the amount of men sent can't have been much more than thirty thousand in total (the source lists aprox 8k casualties and attrition in the war was pretty high) with a good proportion of them not being combat troops. Contrasting that to over a million US troops in action and I think you can see the problem here.
Siamese troops just weren't a big part of the offensive. Listing them like a major ally in the battle when they contributed an infantry brigade at most just seems misleading. Especially as there's no information about Siam actually even fighting at all in this battle (no casualty figures, no places of action) there's not even certainty that a single Siamese soldier fought here. They were integrated into the French army not the American one.
It just seems disingenuous to put them along side the major Allies here. If we want a historical note then fine, but they have no place in the infobox IMHO.
82.132.243.113 ( talk) 06:28, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
The imaginative painting of an attack by a U.S. detachment does not really reflect the offensive which is the topic of this article, so I removed it until we can agree on a better one. Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 06:55, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Five paragraphs, four with no citations. Fifteen sentences, and 2-3-times that number of distinct, purported fact-filled phrases for a word count of >560, and only two citations to cover all of it. All despite all WP policies to the contrary, arguing that WP's veracity lies on its tying its content to reliable sources. And a single paragraph tag calling for more citations, that is almost two years old (dated September 2016), with insubstantial improvement and no hard decision taken. This is a disservice to young readers, and an embarrassment to those claiming encyclopedic content. Shame on the system that allows this. 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:ca80:3cb5:ada0:92b0:eb63:c91e ( talk 鈥 contribs)
The opening section claims the number of french deaths in the campaign is unknown. Given the significance of campaigns such as this one and the amount of research on the period I find this hard to actually believe. At the very least some researcher somewhere must have compiled an estimate. Also on a wider point I have to agree with previous comments that this page has general issues with unsourced material and american-slanted narrative. It feels to me that the entire thing needs a rewrite. 2A02:C7D:86B:4A00:1A5:1B45:2A6A:89E8 ( talk) 17:22, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
The comments on here reveal appalling ignorance amongst contributors. This offensive FAILED to meet all of its objectives and thus was a victory for the GERMANS, not for the Allies and the US army. It did however contribute to the German defeat in the war as it expended many German reserves and inflicted unsustainable losses. And it did NOT involve the Hindenburg line! I don't know where anyone ever got that idea from. The US Army's involvemnt with breaching the Hindeburg line was at the battle of St. Quentin Canal with II US Corps, which was an entirely separate operation (under British command) to this offensive. 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by Daniel Eyre ( talk 鈥 contribs) 08:06, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
The source for Siam's participation in the Meuse-Argonne offensive is invalid/broken, is there another source backing up the claim of Siamese participation in the battle? Colin Zhong ( talk) 17:19, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
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