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Article merged: See old talk-page
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This article claims "Maccabees" means "hammer" but "hammer" is writen "פטיש" and "Macabees" is writen "מכבי". Any thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alessio.aguirre ( talk • contribs) 13:47, 2011 November 2 (UTC)
This article contradicts the one on chanukah which says that, according to the Bible, the Seleucid king did want to Hellenize the Jews and rob them of their rights. What really happened? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.108.210.62 ( talk) 05:02, 2004 July 28 (UTC)
I have moved some paragraphs of the later dynasty to the Hasmonean page, where I reckon they fit better in. Also, I added the difference between the two terms Maccabee and Hasmonean. -- Sponsianus 09:27, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Maccabees is going to require a specific disambiguation page rather than a disambig paragraph at the top of this article. There is now an up and coming Band in the UK which shares the name and it's only a matter of time before they get their own article. Unless anyone has any objections to Maccabees (disambiguation). I'll set to it this evening. Y control 09:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I object to the use of the image containing the map of the Hasmonean Kingdom set against the background of the so-called present-day borders of Israel. The image is also being used in the articles on Hanukkah, on Jewish history, on Judas Maccabeus, on Hasmonean and on the Golan Heights. But these are not the internationally recognised borders of Israel. The image suggests that the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and East Jerusalem are integral parts of the state of Israel, whereas this is subject to international disputes. To present these borders as undisputed facts, is to lessen the quality of information provided by Wikipedia. I therefore decided to remove this image. In a (very swift) reaction by a Wikipedia administrator, he accused me of "blatant vandalism". That is absurd. I'm in the habit of using Wikipedia as a source of factual, unbiased information. Ocasionally, I make a small contribution to try to enhance the factual accuracy of an article. To enhance an article is not vandalism. It is what I thought Wikipedia was all about. There are undoubtedly many images available that could be used in these articles that depict the borders of Israel, while clearly marking the disputed Palestinian Territories and the Golan Heights as disputed entities. Why would an unbiased encyclopedia, out of of all the available options, choose an image that is provided by the Israeli Foreign Ministry? If it is Wikipedia's standard policy to discourage user participation in this agressive way, then in my view, it fails in its stated purpose. -- 82.215.24.131 13:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
To my recollection, Judah and Judas are the same person? There should be internal consistency within the article - any thoughts? - TMac 00:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Um yeah, Jews do not celebrate Chanukah because of the victory, they celebrate because of the menorah oil burning for 8 days instead of one. Jews do not celebrate war whatsoever. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.10.51.87 ( talk) 06:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
I'm sorry. that map. is that serious? it presents a hook-nosed face, dribbling.
I don't thing ancient Israel looked like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.150.107 ( talk) 01:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is almost identical to Maccabean Revolt. I propose they be merged. Marshall46 ( talk) 10:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
The article says that, "as the Maccabees realized how successful they had been, many wanted to continue the revolt as a war of national self-determination." It also refers to "the war of national liberation". I suggest that "national self-determination" and "national liberation" are anachronisms, reading back concepts from the 20th century to the 2nd century BCE. The article also tends to overstate the degree of autonomy achieved by the Maccabeans relative to the Seleucid empire. It would be more accurate and more consistent with modern sources to say that, having won the freedom to practice the Jewish religion and more autonomy for Judea, the Maccabeans continued fighting to win more territory. Marshall46 ( talk) 14:59, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
"At the beginning of the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a conflict broke out between two members of the High Priest Levite family. The conflict resulted in High Priest Onias III going to Egypt. There he set up a new temple at Heliopolis northeast of what is now Cairo. This temple functioned until 70 C.E. when the Romans destroyed it along with the one in Jerusalem." Is there another source for this? the article doesn't mention.
The date format has been changed back and forth between BC and BCE. Wikipedia has no preference for one over the other, but I suggest that BCE is more appropriate for this article. BCE/CE is becoming increasingly common in historical and academic writing and it is considered to be more neutral in religious terms than BC/AD. BCE/CE stand for "Before the Common Era/Common Era". BC/AD stand for "Before Christ/Anno Domini (in the year or Our Lord)". As this article is about events in Jewish history, the former is prefererable, so I have changed the dates back again. If any editor wants to undo this, they should explain their reasons here. Marshall46 ( talk) 18:38, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I have made changes in the summary box.
I have listed the combatants as Jews and Seleucid Empire. Although the Maccabees did attack Hellenized Jews, the latter were not combatants in the sense that they did not fight the Maccabees. I have made some changes to "territory" and "results".
In the intro. I have changed Coele-Syria to Israel. This is, of course, not the state of Israel, but it is the land of Israel. That makes more sense than Coele-Syria.
Marshall46 ( talk) 17:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
In looking over the references I noticed that the spelling of Victor Tchrikover's name is wrong (spelled as "Tcherikover"). I'm new to editing wikis and don't know how to change it myself. Can someone take care of it? -- Moshe ( talk) 19:00, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
The Maccabees are now described as "a Jewish rebel army who took control of parts of the Land of Israel, which had been a client state of the Seleucid Empire." I agree with Crotalus Horridus that we need to find a non-POV way of describing what happened. As I understand it, Judea was part of the Seleucid empire but not directly ruled by the Seleucid king. It was governed by the High Priest, who was appointed by the king. I think it is best to describe it as a "client state", though I am open to suggestions. Marshall46 ( talk) 09:36, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I have a question: If its true that "Most modern scholars argue that the king was intervening in a civil war between traditionalist Jews in the countryside and Hellenized Jews in Jerusalem," why is the rest of the content on the revolt framed as a war against foreign oppression? For example:
Wouldn't it be incorrect to refer to the Hellenic Jews as "collaborators". They were just non-revolting Hellenic Jews. And did Mattathias spark the revolt by refusing to worship the Greek gods or by murdering the Hellenic Jew? I'm just confused on that point. johnpseudo 18:45, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I suggest this article is merged with Hasmonean which covers the same events. It is a better article than this one, drawn from more modern sources. Marshall46 ( talk) 11:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't know how to add it, but one source for the interactions between the Maccabees and the Roman Senate are in I Maccabees 8: 17-32 (NEB). Also, I seem to recall an instructor suggesting that while this was a canny alliance to seek at the time, it brought the Jewish community to Roman attention and may have opened the back door to the later Roman hegemony over the area. If that's true it might be helpful to tie the narrative together further by mentioning it, or if not, to clarify.
Two other thoughts: It might also make sense to at least mention that the events in I and II Maccabees are at some points congruent; the article on the various books doesn't really make that clear, either. And Coele-Syria is used by the translators of some versions of the book (I'm working from the NEB at the moment but I've seen it elsewhere) so even if it's not to be used in general throughout the article, at least one reference explaining its usage might be helpful to those who run across it in this context and are trying to puzzle out the geography issues. 96.237.240.126 ( talk) 10:34, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
There is quite a large number of books, mostly it seems from the seventeenth century, written by Irish writers in Irish and Latin about the Maccabees. For instance, This Irish writer in exile in Salamanca in 1651 wrote a two-volume work on the Maccabees, with 704 pages in Volume 1 alone. This is a good summary of how the Maccabees story was used by the Catholic Irish in the seventeenth century as solace for their war, overthrow and conquest. This article could probably be improved by acknowledging such extensive traditions connected with the Maccabees. 212.129.66.130 ( talk) 15:35, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Also Maccabees and Eberhard Bethge? The essay that starts on page 31 of "Friendship and resistance: essays on Dietrich Bonhoeffer" by Bethge. The epigraph used for the essay is from from 2 Maccabees 7, and Bethge relates it to the martyrs of Nazi Germany's Plotzensee. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
74.141.226.90 (
talk)
12:05, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Uri Avnery points out that the Hellenists the Maccabees fought against were principally the Hellenistic Jews of Israel, and that their struggle was a bloody civil war:
It is also ironic that by the time of the early Roman Empire, the struggle was over, the Hellenists had won. Hebrew was all but forgotten, the daily speech was Aramaic or Greek, the Bible was the Greek translation known as the LXX, and Greek mores and social customs prevailed; for example, reclining at table (see John 13:25). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.200.100 ( talk) 18:20, 2011 October 24 (UTC)
I think this article is mainly describing the Maccabean Revolt itself, rather than the Maccabees (the brothers of Judah). It also has a military campaignbox, and is much more weightful than the term Maccabees, who are also sufficiently described under Hasmoneans. Would you support renaming to Maccabean Revolt? Greyshark09 ( talk) 22:17, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
The article encompasses both description of the Hasmonean leaders named "Maccabees" (the first generation of Hasmoneans) and the event in which they revolted against the Seleucid Empire, in the famous Maccabean Revolt. Like in the case of Simko Shikak, from which Simko Shikak revolt was split, i propose to split Maccabean Revolt, from this article. In addition the article Maccabean Revolt had already existed, but was merged into Maccabees without a proper discussion and reasoning. Greyshark09 ( talk) 19:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
The claim that possession of the Torah was a capital offence is not substantiated by the source of 1 Mac 60-61. Unless a source can be provided I will remove it. Dalai lama ding dong ( talk) 17:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
One should not mistake the understanding of the proper etymology and spelling is not merely an academic exercise. A whole spate of material have been published, both in English and Hebrew, to discuss the 'Maccabees' surname etymology. Hatam Sofer attempts to show that correct to the name Machabee. We should briefly discuss here in the TalkPage the name Machabee and their common variations in Greek, Latim and than sefaradi ladino. I added on the beginning of the article, variations of Maccabees in Latin, and Sefaradi-Ladino, also with Latim root that is important to extend the knowledge of this name-surname. Levin, in his Mi-Boker ad Erev, cites explanations including that if makbas means a hammer it is not a large hammer but instead a small one used by a blacksmith. It could also be possible that, because of the extensive collection of Pagan Greek statues and idolatrous shrines that had sprouted up throughout Judea and the surrounding area, Judas may have also been dubbed the 'Hammer' due to his propensity to smash any idol or statue which he encountered into as many pieces as possible.What is certain is that Machabees has it’s Latim variations as Machabi, and Machado (from latim ‘marculatum’ that means ‘Hammer’. Levin rejects Munks explanation that Machabee refers to Hammer as used as an honorific for Charles Martel - Martel the Hammer - for his victory over the Muslims between Tours and Poitiers. JewishResearcher ( talk) 01:16, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
While Hellenism did much to erode and seduce the Jewish culture, I think it notably skewed to state or imply (as this article does) that Greek sports were totally against the indigenous culture of Judea. Did Judeans not play sports in their spare time? Of course they did! The content concerning Greek sports upon this page must be clarified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.26.18 ( talk) 22:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Eleazar Avaran#Naming conventions on WP for the Maccabees. Discussion: How should the original Maccabees, the father Mattathias and his five sons, John (Johanan), Simon, Judah (Judas), Eleazar (Elazar), Jonathan be known on Wikipedia? Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 11:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
I will be adding a portion on the differences between the First and Second Maccabees. Both of these books express vastly different accounts. There are differences on the inclusion and beliefs of martyrdom and resurrection from both authors. Thus, each book’s narrative is shaped and told in a dissimilar manner. Additionally, the tone of each record is in contrast, where First Maccabees presents a non-objective and sober account, taking influence from the Hebrew Bible, Second Maccabees is particularly emotional. In regards to composition, these two books are unalike, too. First Maccabees begins with the rise and legitimacy of the Hasmonean dynasty, originating with a narrative of the priest Mattathias. On the other hand, Second Maccabees starts with two letters, Epistle I and Epistle II, that would later prove to contradict the historical narrative. My exact reference is: Jonathan A. Goldstein, “Introduction,” in I Maccabees (Doubleday & Company, Inc. Garden city, New York, 1976), 12,21,27,33,79. Goldstein was a biblical author and scholar who achieved a master’s and bachelor’s degree from Harvard University and a doctorate from Columbia University. He taught history at Columbia University for two years before teaching at the University of Iowa from 1962 to 1997. If anyone wants to comment on this addition, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. Aviv28 ( talk) 00:52, 15 November 2018 (UTC).
There are two very similar pages about this subject; this one and Maccabean Revolt. It's confusing and means a lot of editing effort is wasted. Apparently these pages were merged in 2011 but then they diverged again. Should they be merged again? ImTheIP ( talk) 20:24, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
I removed mention of forced conversions in the lede, since there needs to be a clearer explanation and citation in the body if this information is going to be mentioned in this article. The info doesn't necessarily need stay in this article, given that reliable sources say the following: