This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
current talk page.
I've very much enjoyed this page over the past several years, and I appreciate your diligence in keeping it up. I have a request that would really help me as a reader.
Would you please list the reference count in a new column on the table?
By looking at the reference list (clicking [V] in the last column) for Tetris, I can see that it's featured on 41 lists, as follows:
By clicking [FS] for Company of Heroes, I can see it's featured in 6 lists, as follows:
[39][41][2][34][18][7]
Those count figures encode obviously important information. If we had to choose, say, five games as the best of all time, I can certainly see Tetris making that list over Company of Heroes, even if both are among the best games of all time more broadly.
And that information is on the page already; it's just hard to access. Adding it directly into the table (and making the table sortable by that column) would do a lot to help me as a reader, and would only entail making existing information more accessible.
2600:8807:5780:3510:FD8C:C558:D1F5:E37F (
talk)
15:23, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Counting existing references (so that readers don't have to do it manually) does not constitute original research. "Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources." Counting the sources themselves is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources.
Fine, I'll type it out again, although this is really more for Dissident93's benefit. On the off chance you are actually a new user, welcome! Unfortunately, somebody before you poisoned the well with a long stream of IP edits that made this article crap for a long while, and I thus have to assume I'm actually talking to them, since you're essentially proposing the same thing. It was discussed in detail in the talk page archives. See there. We don't want the list
looking like this where Wikipedia is declaring Ocarina of Time the ultimate game because somebody dug up a lot of sources that liked it. It's just completely wrong in every regard - we can show a simple condition is met ("did enough sources honor this game") but attempting to use them for anything further is OR. The references are used to construct the result, but they are not the result. There's nothing holy or blessed about the current lists used by this article, nor should there be, but for something like what you describe to happen, we would need to be working from an objective and complete list, like "most Academy Awards won". There's many more lists of best games than what is listed here, which is fine for the purpose currently used, but not for some "ranking by score" that you want.
SnowFire (
talk)
03:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for the reply. For the record, I truly am an infrequent contributor who may have a username but doesn't know how to find it.
I remember the versions of this page like the old version you linked to. I found the counts extremely helpful, even if it sounds like behind the scenes the selection criteria weren't well-defined or well-enforced at the time. Relatedly: in terms of the concern you shared about people digging up lots of sources that like a game, that problem seems to be completely handled by the clear selection criteria this page is now using, reflected in the Talk threads above this one. So that doesn't seem like a relevant problem, even if it was previously.
Because I found the counts so helpful, since the format was changed (maybe two years ago?) I've continued to check this page periodically to see if a count of sources might be reinstated. When I saw that the information's already available in the footnotes, I made the post starting this thread.
To me, providing a reference count in no way alleges that the references themselves are holy and blessed: it simply makes useful information easier to access—"this page is currently summarizing 51 lists, and 41 of them (or 6 of them) list this game." If that information does encode a real difference in perceived "bestness" between Tetris and Company of Heroes—or even if, bizarrely, it doesn't—Wikipedia is not declaring any sort of ultimate winner in any sense at all; it's just allowing human beings to easily see the factual information of how many of its own 51 possible sources mention a given game.
To be clear, I find that the count does encode a very clear meaning: it shows which among numerous seminal games are considered most seminal across a wide aggregation of carefully chosen sources. As those sources change, the counts will change, straightforwardly. The point I'm making is that simply allowing people to see that information without resorting to reference-counting hacks is not declaring an "ultimate game according to Wikipedia"—it's just surfacing already-there data that is so useful that people (like me) will otherwise go looking for it.
I believe the most likely intent of "Routine calculations do not count as original research" is precisely to stop processes that surface useful information that is "obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources" from being miscategorized as OR.
I'm sorry to hear the well has been poisoned here; I hope a fresh look is at least possible, because this change would help me so much as a reader that I'm learning how Talk pages work to advocate for it, and I'm really unconvinced that it transgresses OR, even if previous threads terminated there.
2600:8807:5780:3510:5984:739:F94:15BB (
talk)
06:09, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
SnowFire, I thought the editor was asking to simply have a (hidden?) counter of the amount of references within the refgroup and not a count of how often a game was listed, although I guess the answer would be the same for both. ~
Dissident93(
talk)09:03, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Gotta be honest here and say it is far from obvious to me why counting cites and giving the number of cites would be
WP:OR, but counting cites and listing games that pass a certain number of cites is not
WP:OR. Earlier this year I made it pretty clear that I consider the present inclusion criteria to be basically editor-invented so pretty obviously I consider both to be OR, but if the inclusion criteria are not OR then what is the objection to counting cites and giving this information to the reader?
FOARP (
talk)
11:50, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
@
FOARP: We clearly disagree / have different standards, but to explain my two cents as to the distinction... this list could theoretically be converted to referenced prose, e.g. a line in
Mega Man 2#Reception that says something like "Many publications consider Mega Man 2 one of the best games ever made.[1][2][3][4][5][6]" (although in reality, more spelled out in calling out the specific articles / journalists in the real article). Including a referenced line of prose that said such is acceptable (and happens all the time - see the lede of that article). It would, on the other hand, be very weird and inappropriately self-referential to include a line in the article like "Wikipedia editors found 20 articles that considered Mega Man 2 one of the best games ever published." It would be misleading to write "20 articles consider Mega Man 2 one of the best games ever published" too; there surely are more than just those that Wikipedia editors haven't found, that will be written in the future, that are in Japanese or German or the like, etc. Translated to list form, that means we shouldn't explicitly call out the reference count as inappropriately self-referential, but the vanilla statements of "Many publications consider XYZ one of the best games" (equivalent to inclusion on this list at all) are still fine.
SnowFire (
talk)
19:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Ninja Gaiden (NES) added
After combing through the omnibus data again to see if anything was still missing from the main list, I actually found a game: Ninja Gaiden for the NES. It has now been added.
Phediuk (
talk)
10:23, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Hardcore Gaming 101updated their "200 Best Video Games of All Time" list in 2020. More precisely, they added 18 additional games to the list, so, in the words of Kurt Kalata, "now it’s something like '218 Best Games of All Time'". The additions are as follows:
Hardcore Gaming 101, 2020
428: Shibuya Scramble
Alien: Isolation
Batman: Arkham City
Celeste
Crazy Taxi
Donkey Kong ’94
Doom (2016)
Dragon Quest Builders 2
Dragon’s Dogma
The House in Fata Morgana
Killer Instinct (2013)
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
Life Is Strange
Lode Runner
Nex Machina
Super Mario Odyssey
Undertale
Valkyrie Profile
Fairly minor note, but any objection to changing the Oregon Trail entry to reference
The Oregon Trail (1985 video game) rather than the 1971 one? I'd be shocked if that wasn't a better and more accurate article/date to pick - the number of people who played that version & its descendants is much, much greater than the 1971 one. Can add a footnote to explain worst comes to worst. I tried to check a few of the lists but many seem to have "updated" to remove that one as far as yearly rotations, and I'll grant that two of the ones that were still up offered 1970s dates, but I suspect that was more from laziness.
SnowFire (
talk)
05:06, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Of the eight lists referenced, seven specifically refer to the
original 1971 game, and only
one refers to the
1985 game. Most of them use screenshots or cover art from the later game, but, to be fair, the original
wasn't exactly great for illustration. It's possible that those seven lists are mistaking the two games, but that's not really for us to say. –
Rhain☔05:49, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
I’ve looked at the source material used to build this list, and many of them, six publishers if I remember correctly, have the game,
Battlefield 1942. Could I have a second opinion here? (BlueBlurHog) 16:45 (UTC)
I checked the omnibus data; Battlefield 1942 is listed by Entertainment Weekly, IGN, Game Informer, 1001 Games, and Polygon, so 5.
Phediuk (
talk)
08:41, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
I counted:
Entertainment Weekly 2003
IGN 2003, 2005, 2007, 2015, 2018
Game Informer 2009
1001 Games to Play Before You Die
Polygon 2017
And, then I got Game Informer again as a separate list.
You were right, my mistake. (BlueBlurHog) 14:54 2 Aug 2021 (UTC)
Importance
Just thought I'd like to hear the views of other editors who contribute to this list article. Do you believe that it is a sign of a video game's importance and perhaps influence within the video game industry as a whole if it meets the criteria for inclusion in this article, seeing as how it would have been vetted to be one of the best or greatest video game works by no less then 6 distinct sources?
Haleth (
talk)
17:03, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
@
Haleth: Having enough longevity to be considered one of the best by at least six different publications (and counting) years after its release is definitely no small thing.
Cat's Tuxedo (
talk)
15:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
How to add more games
Everybody, it’s been asked by many, many people in the past, and answered by others constantly. So, to reduce the need to ask and answer, I’ll remind the newcomers of what they need to do.
To all who are new to this page, and to all who are new to Wikipedia as a whole, the criteria on the top of the main article. Read it thoroughly, and you’ll find the instructions.
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
19:59, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
1. Half-Life 2
2. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
3. Super Mario Bros.
4. Doom (1993)
5. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
6. Portal
7. Sonic the Hedgehog
8. Angry Birds
9. Tetris
10. Super Mario Kart
11. Goldeneye (1997)
12. Red Dead Redemption
13. Rock Band 3
14. Elite
15. Space Invaders
16. Outrun
17. Final Fantasy VII
18. LA Noire
19. Sensible World of Soccer
20. Quake
21. Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec
22. Mass Effect
23. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
24. Pac-Man
25. Super Mario 64
26. Speedball 2: Brutal Deluxe
27. Super Mario Galaxy 2
28. Pro Evolution Soccer 4
29. Wii Sports Resort
30. Tomb Raider (1996)
31. Halo: Combat Evolved
32. Lemmings
33. Fallout 3
34. Counter-Strike
35. LittleBigPlanet 2
36. SingStar
37. Street Fighter II
38. Sega Rally Championship
39. Mega Bomberman
40. Burnout 3: Takedown
41. World of Warcraft
42. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2
43. Championship Manager 97/98
44. Monkey Island 2: LeChuck’s Revenge
45. God of War III
46. Simcity
47. Kinect Sports
48. Wipeout
49. Worms
50. Bioshock
51. Bubble Bobble
52. R-Type
53. Forza Motorsport 2
54. MotorStorm
55. Streets of Rage 2
56. Patapon
57. Star Wars: X-Wing
58. Deus Ex
59. Shenmue
60. Left 4 Dead
61. Wii Fit Plus
62. Jet Set Willy
63. Command & Conquer
64. Defender of the Crown
65. Diablo
66. Resident Evil 4
67. Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
68. Super Metroid
69. DJ Hero 2
70. The Sims
71. Stunt Car Racer
72. Virtua Tennis
73. Underwurlde
74. Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty
75. Crazy Taxi
76. Road Rash II
77. Castlevania
78. Phantasy Star II
79. FIFA 11
80. Metal Slug
81. Knight Lore
82. Sid Meier's Pirates! (1987)
83. Double Dragon
84. NBA Jam
85. Grand Prix Legends
86. Alone in the Dark (1992)
87. TimeSplitters 2
88. Ico
89. Skate
90. Oddworld: Abe’s Oddysee
91. Micro Machines
92. California Games
93. Rainbow Islands
94. Virtua Fighter 2
95. Age of Empires
96. PGA Tour Golf
97. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves
98. Red Baron 3D
99. Dungeon Master
100. Civilization
I looked through this list from the horse's mouth, and under the log, but this is what the horse's mouth has to whinny:
Stuff, 2011 Cited
1-20:
Half-Life 2
Super Mario Galaxy 2
Ocarina of Time
Super Mario Bros.
Doom 1
RDR 1
Sonic 1
Tetris
Super Mario Kart
GoldenEye 007
Beatles Rock Band
Space Invaders
World of Warcraft
Elite
Flight Control (2009) (iPhone)
Sensible World of Soccer
Final Fantasy 6
GTA 3
Quake
Gran Turismo 3
21: Pac-Man
22-33: could not process
34-40:
Angry Birds
Turrican 2
Street Fighter 2
Mega Bomberman
Sega Rally
CoD: Modern Warfare 2
Football Manager Handheld 2010
41-60:
Monkey Island 2
God of War 3
Wipeout
SimCity
Worms
BioShock
Bubble Bobble
R-Type
Forza Motorsport 2
MotorStorm
Patapon
Star Wars: X-wing
Deus Ex
Shenmue
Left 4 Dead
WII Fit Plus
Jet Set Willy
Command and Conquer
Defender of the Crown
Diablo 1
61-80:
Resident Evil 4
Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
Out Run
Super Metroid
Guitar Hero Metallica
The Sims
Stunt Car Racer
Virtua Tennis
Underwurlde
MGS 2
Crazy Taxi
Road Rash 2
Castlevania 1
Phantasy Star 2
FIFA 10
Metal Slug
Knightlore
Pirates!
Double Dragon
NBA Jam
81-100:
Grand Prix Legends
Alone in the Dark
TimeSplitters 2
Ico
Skate
Oddworld: Abe’s Odyssee
Micro Machines
Ant Attack
California Games
Rainbow Islands
Virtua Fighter 2
Rome: Total Warrior
PGA Tour Golf
Uncharted 2
Red Baron 3D
Dr Kawashima’s Brain Training
Dungeon Master
Mercenary
Dungeon Master
Civilization
Notice how in the original source, Dungeon Master is repeated, and that placements of certain games don't match (regardless if slots are missing)? Or do I have the wrong source? Because if you go directly to the 2011 issue of Stuff Magazine, as directed in the citation, you won't get what was logged.
Also, a weird glitch happens. If you’re at #95 or beyond, and click “100-81” again, you’ll be taken to Jet Set Radio, which doesn’t start at 100. 15:23 10 April 2021 (BlueBlurHog)
I have GI's issue #100 from 2001 and can confirm that the top 100 list there is a reader poll, so no, it will not be added. For whatever reason, they left the original preamble out of this online version, even though they retained all of the original writeups.
Phediuk (
talk)
20:46, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
I was thinking that the PlayStation should be added as one of the platforms for Tekken 3, since both the arcade and console versions released within six days of each other, and the game itself sold around 8 million units on the PSX, which pivotal to getting the series to the status it has nowadays.
I think that Red Dead Redemption 2 should be added to this list as millions of people including me consider it to be one of the greatest video games ever made.
Jfewme (
talk)
16:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
Hello,
I was looking over the omnibus data and had a question. For the entries saying "series collectively", are those ignored for this page or is the first game in the series taken? Thanks.
--
BenSPVE (
talk)
23:01, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
I could be wrong in this, but I believe California Games should be on the list. One source calls it "Californian Games" but I can't seem to find a game by that name, so I assume it is California Games?
Hyper 1995, Next Generation 1996, GameSpot 2007, Stuff 2008, FHM 2010, and 1001 Games are the sources. Thanks. --
BenSPVE (
talk)
19:46, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
The Next Gen 1996 entry is for the whole Epyx "Games" series, so that leaves California Games at 5 sources. Thanks for pointing out that typo.
Phediuk (
talk)
22:28, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Ah, thanks for that. Another question if you don't mind regarding something similar: do joint entries not count either? I also noticed Alone in the Dark has six sources but one of them is a joint entry. If so, was there a discussion on why not to count joint entries? Thanks once again.
BenSPVE (
talk)
22:02, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Correct, joint entries aren't currently counted either. Since there's very few joint entries, there has never been a discussion about them specifically, though really, they're the same thing as "series" entries, just with two games lumped together instead of 3 or more. Thanks for the question.
Phediuk (
talk)
20:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
How to add to the Notes list
This is probably just me being new, but could someone tell me how to add a section to the Notes section, in my case add IE with sources next to it? Thanks.
Shikomu (
talk)
21:17, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
If you want to add a note, put {{efn-ua|...}} and list all of the references that you want to add to the note after the vertical bar.
benǝʇᴉɯ23:05, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Is anyone keeping track of games that haven't been added yet?
There was a Google Sheets list that kept track of the games found in multiple lists, but haven't reached the six different entries that qualify games for this page. When I decided to check on it recently, apparently the Sheets list was deleted due to no one editing it for some time.
Feel free to look at it and if anyone finds anything wrong you can let me know. I'll try to keep it updated--should not be too hard as only a few lists are added per year it seems. --
BenSPVE (
talk)
02:31, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Hey BenSPVE, very impressive list!! One omission that deserves credit, Sword of Fargoal. Great early dungeon crawl. From Wikipedia's own page... Computer Gaming World in 1996 listed Sword of Fargoal as #147 on the "Top 150 Best Video Games of All Time" Thanks.
AA Pilot16 (
talk)
09:18, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for the suggestion, but the preamble says it's for console games only. Also, it says the list was made with reader input, which suggests it was only partially editor-chosen.
Phediuk (
talk)
08:26, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
Why was the threshold raised from five listings to six?
Apparently the threshold was originally five listings only, but at some point it was raised to be six listings?
In short, what were the specific reasons for raising the threshold?
Before I begin, I should preface that I think that the six listings threshold works for the most part, and that it shouldn't be removed. That being said, looking over at the list compiled by
BenSPVE, there are a still number of games that are cited as some of the best games of all time (some of which are even referred to as such on their own Wikipedia pages), but aren't listed due to falling just short of the threshold limit. These are mainly games that have only five listings or less, yet according to popular opinion, are games that would likely be expected to show up on lists like these. The specific games I have in mind are games like Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots and Perfect Dark, both of which have five listings each and are referred to as one of the greatest games of all time on their own articles. There even some games that only have four listings, and yet are considered to be some of the most influential and beloved games of all time, like Mother 3 and Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes. At the same time, however, there are some games with four or five listings that would not fit on this list, such as Heavenly Sword, which has been by and large forgotten by the gaming public at large.
So while I don't think the six listings threshold should be removed, I would like to suggest an addition to the process of adding games on here:
If a game has six listings or more that meet the criteria already defined, they are automatically added to the list, no questions asked.
However, games that have five or four listings (that meet the criteria already defined) can be put up for discussion by a user, who will present an argument explaining the merits of the game, its impact on the medium and/or a genre at large, and why it should be added to the list. If a specific number of users support the addition (ten users for games with five listings, thirteen for games with four) or are convinced by the case made for the specific game in question, then the game can be added to the list after debate. If the game does not receive the amount of support needed from other users, then the game cannot be put up for further discussion until:
A game with four listings receives a fifth listing, at which the game can be put back up for debate.
A game reaches the six listings required to be automatically added to the page.
I think that while the six listing threshold does work, I don't think it should be the only method of adding games onto the list, especially for games that the gaming public at large otherwise thinks highly of. If this list is meant to reflect the opinions of gaming journalists and the gaming public as accurately, then I think the process to adding games needs to be improved, especially when considering the impact of some games that aren't mentioned at all here, yet are generally considered to be some of the best outside of this page.
I'm not 100% sure about this particular method but I do agree on the initial point, that there are many games that are unquestionably considered the best of all time that are not reflected on the list due to the strict "best game of all time list from reputable outlets only" criteria. Lists like that don't happen all the time and I get the feeling that as gaming history gets larger these lists will become even less common in favour of more specific lists. In order to keep the page relevant and accurate, we need to start looking into alternate inclusion methods.
2A00:23C6:8281:A501:CC68:5B67:25D9:5809 (
talk)
00:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
I've had my issues with this list as well, but I'm opposed to anything that gives more weight to editorial opinion than reliable sources. That said, there was a discussion where a few people raised the possibility of going down to a simple
WP:3REFS standard, which would probably enlarge this list, but not beyond the limits of what is considered a good size for the article body. It would truly include most games that are considered the best. A link to the archived discussion is here:
Talk:List_of_video_games_considered_the_best/Archive_7#How_does_this_pass_WP:LISTCRIT?Shooterwalker (
talk)
14:57, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
I had a look over the previous discussion and the case for a
WP:3REFS approach seems compelling. Of course in the linked discussion many other problems are brought up that are different discussions entirely, but strictly on the subject of the 6 cited sources, switching to a more widely used 3REFS approach would solve a lot of problems regarding notable games currently excluded.
2A00:23C6:8281:A501:6153:A53F:2CB4:26BD (
talk)
17:44, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
I don't think "editor discussion" is a workable criterion. The theory behind the current form of the list is to reduce editor discretion as much as possible. Such discussion would be great for, say, a message board's list of best games, but doesn't work well for Wikipedia, which relies on external sources rather than internal ones.
For 2A00's first comment, I do agree that in the long term, this criteria will need updating. All the "all time lists" include the inherent asterisk of "all time up to the point of publication", so it's not strictly true that all the lists are the same - earlier games will be favored compared to later games, because of less "competition" on all-time lists made around their time of publication compared to the present day. One way to fix this chronological imbalance is to allow more time-restricted lists, sure, but a simpler way is just to enforce a weaker requirement for more recent games - I've suggested this before. This would hopefully be more automatic and require less editor discretion - games after 2010 require 1 less source, etc. (And maybe after enough time has passed and new lists added, change this to 2016 for requiring one less source, etc.) No big deal now, but will definitely matter later - this article in 2030 will be affected even more by such distortions.
SnowFire (
talk)
19:00, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
I personally think an option worth considering is more leniency towards genre lists from reputable outlets. I gather they have historically been excluded due to their limiting factor but I think it's worth considering whether they truly are that limiting at this point in time. If say, Mother 3 were to appear in a "top 10 RPGs of all-time list" from a reputable outlet alongside other games already represented here such as Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, the Elder Scrolls or whatever else already represented, does that not provide a solid reference for the claim that it is among those considered the best of all time? The RPG genre is a long and storied genre and for any game to be included on a list chronicling the best of the best of any particular major genre must by inference also be worthy of the best of all time. This is a very different scenario to a best of the year list which, by nature of the list's premise, has no inference to all-time great quality. Implementing this in a clear way could require shifting at least in part to a genre-segregated page as with the
List of films considered the best, but it seems like a clear next step in opening the inclusion criteria up. As was mentioned earlier, as gaming history grows it will become much harder for even reputable outlets to categorize all-time lists without some form of segregation. There are just too many notable games.
2A00:23C6:8281:A501:6153:A53F:2CB4:26BD (
talk)
21:23, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
I suspect that genre-specific lists would be among the last ways to "fix" this, as there would be an almost unsolvable problem with how to balance them. We'd need to include a list for "each" genre to avoid bias and that would be difficult. If you were really set on the idea, you could hypothetically make a new list strictly based on "best RPG" lists so that it'd be an apples-to-apples comparison in your draft space, but I wouldn't be in favor of integrating it into this list - that would be material for
List of RPG video games considered the best. (I would argue that if we really wanted to loosen the restrictions on lists to use in this article, we'd start allowing things like
Game Informer's Best Games of the 8th Generation to try to allow more recent entries a legit shot, i.e. time based more than genre based.)
SnowFire (
talk)
21:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Zork I or Zork?
Hey all, I was looking through the different sources for Zork on the list and I noticed that most of them either cite what we know as Zork I - The Great Underground Empire or use imagery from that game instead of the 1977 PDP version. Should we list Zork I from 1980 instead of Zork from 1977? Or does it not matter either way?
73.249.13.223 (
talk)
17:44, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
The sources pretty much all treat the two versions as interchangeable -- the 2019 Popular Mechanics list, for instance, lists the release year as 1980 but the original platform as the PDP-10. Most sources name the game as simply "Zork" rather than "Zork I", also, regardless of the year listed. As for the screenshots, pictures of the 1980 version are much easier to find than for the 1977 version, so that's probably why they all depict the 1980 version regardless of whether they specifically name it or not. I'd be fine with moving the entry to 1980, though I don't think it matters too much either way.
Phediuk (
talk)
20:51, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
Opposed for the same reason given at
WP:VG/RS in regards to GamingBible's reliability. The user is aware may not be aware that that discussion is against this, let's not waste time. --
ferret (
talk)
23:02, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I AM unaware of this “discussion”, and I’ve got plenty of time. What are you talking about? What’s wrong with what I’ve brought up? (BlueBlueHog) 11 Oct 2021, 23:42 (UTC)
I linked to WP:VG's reliable source page above, check the talk page. Gamingbible is simply not viewed as a reliable source. The reason I thought you might be aware of that discussion is that it was started in regards to this very list. --
ferret (
talk)
23:58, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
2011 - Skyrim (Request)
Requesting that someone add Skyrim. It was a game which not only was extremely hype for that year (11//11//11 release date); it also exceeded beyond the hype and was an intensely phenomenal and record breaking game. To this day it is understood to be a game well worth its value and time. Please accept this humble request
JasonMoore (
talk)
15:14, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
@
JasonMoore: It's already on the list. I also suggest that you read the FAQ at the top of this page for a better understanding of the inclusion criteria. –
Rhain☔15:18, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
Skyrim is also on 13 of the lists on the omnibus data (and probably more). Only 5 showings are required to make the cut.
JasonMoore (
talk)
15:19, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
Initially, when suggesting a way of adding games to this list, I was of the opinion that the six listing threshold shouldn't be lowered, but after giving it some thought, I ended up changing my mind.
The suggestions that were made as alternative methods went nowhere, and as other people brought up, the six listing threshold becomes much more strict as time goes on, due to publications and journalists not wanting to make their own lists of greatest games ever, and instead choose to make more specific lists for certain genres or generations of games. Personally, I don't believe that taking those specific lists into account would help much, as that would just lead to bloat in the list proper.
The five listing threshold may have made the list somewhat longer, but removing it also caused a bunch of games widely considered the best by the general public and journalists to be removed. Some of it got added back over time, like Ninja Gaiden, but many games commonly considered to be some of the best and most influential, such as Alone In The Dark, Demon's Souls, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, and Populus, are still excluded due to their inability to meet this criteria. And if anyone is worried about more questionable games showing up, it's worth reminding people that Destiny has already been added to the list, despite being divisive upon release and now being overshadowed by its sequel.
If this list were to more accurately reflect the general public and their opinions on which games are the greatest, then I think the threshold needs to be lowered. It would make the list longer, sure, but that was going to happen over time anyways, and the lists used as criteria for this article are getting less common. It's also worth mentioning that some games are always going to show up on these "greatest of all time lists" (think Final Fantasy VII, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Super Mario Bros., Halo: Combat Evolved, Half-Life 2, etc.), which basically results less room on those lists for newer games anyways, even if some of those newer games are as acclaimed as the ones on this article so far.
In conclusion, I think the threshold needs to be lowered in order to more accurately reflect the opinions of the public on what games are considered to be the best.
Support. I completely missed the discussion that led the criteria to be raised from five to six lists. Lowering the criteria to five will not bloat the article since there's barely any prose.
Neo-corelight (
Talk)
02:11, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for the proposal, but I'm going to vote no. I'd be more inclined to raise the threshold than lower it, personally. The list already has over 230 games on it, and a five-source threshold would add 60 more. Keep in mind that one of the older complaints about this list is that it was too inclusive; the relatively strict sourcing requirements are a way to head those objections off. There is no rush here. Entries can be added as new sources become available. I don't feel we should get into the mindset that certain games are obligated to be on the list and so we should lower the requirements to accommodate them. Every entry on the list is currently backed up by at least six RSes, a high standard for any WP article, and retreating from it will only weaken the strength of the sole claim on which the list rests (i.e., that [x] game is listed by multiple RSes among the best ever.) I do agree with your argument that adding genre/generation lists are a much worse option, though.
Phediuk (
talk)
03:51, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Phediuk—no game is obligated to be on the list, no matter how deserving you think it may be. I don't have a particular preference for the number of lists for inclusion—make it 10 if you want—but I certainly don't support lowering the threshold simply because the current one is too "strict". The point isn't to "accurately reflect the general public and their opinions", it's to report the content published by various reliable publications. –
Rhain☔04:56, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
What's come up a few times is that the current standard violates the
WP:LISTCRIT policy. Linking to an older discussion here:
WP:LISTCRIT says that "selection criteria should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources". There is no reliable source that establishes "5" or even "6" lists are what will establish a game as "best". I think we need to move away from these arbitrary numbers, which are
WP:OR. I understand the need for a clear standard, but it shouldn't be the invention of a small consensus of editors. Other lists have been deleted entirely for this reason, and I believe the editorial-determined threshold puts this list at risk. Even the idea that a certain number of games is too inclusive or too exclusive is an editorial invention that isn't supported by reliable sources, and violates
WP:OR. The frequent challenges to the facts in this article are a strike against it.
The most relevant policy is always
WP:VERIFIABILITY, and we should rely on the policy about
WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims. Claims that are frequently challenged need a high quality and quantity of sources to support that claim, and I believe that applies to the frequently challenged claims about what should / shouldn't be considered one of "the best" games. Where
WP:V says "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources", we should take "multiple" to have the plain meaning of the word, which is 2 or 3. ("High-quality" should mean editorial driven lists and not singular authors, which this list currently does.)
Shooterwalker (
talk)
21:19, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for your post. I'd like to respond to a few things here: most importantly, this page does not claim to be a list of the best games, or to be "establishing" a list of such. This is not a claim the page makes, period. The page claims, rather, that these games are listed by multiple RSes as among the best, a much narrower and easier-to-prove claim that is unambiguous, objective, and verifiable. Accordingly, this claim is supported by at least six multiple RSes for every single entry on the list. "Multiple RSes" is currently defined for the purposes of this page as six, a latitude allowed for in
WP:GNG, which states simply, "no fixed number of sources [are] required .... but multiple sources are generally expected." WP policy deliberately does not define "multiple".
WP:3REFS is a convention, but not a requirement. In short, this page is not about WP editors determining what is or is not the best game; that is not its purpose. Its purpose is solely to report what critics list as among the best.
Phediuk (
talk)
23:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
No one has said that
WP:3REFS is a requirement, but certainly,
WP:6REFS isn't a real thing. Nor is
WP:5REFS. Those standards have zero grounding in Wikipedia policy, and zero grounding in in reliable sources. The standard is entirely
WP:OR. Until we fix that, this article will continue to receive criticism for
WP:OR, and it may even one day be a subject at AFD.
Shooterwalker (
talk)
06:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't disagree with your reasoning in general, but be aware that
WP:GNG and
WP:3REFS are about article notability, not whether content within a given article or list is due weight. The relevant guideline here is
WP:LISTCRITERIA, which is simply that we have a consensus for whatever criteria there is. --
ferret (
talk)
00:19, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't have any particular argument here, as there's no real guideline or policy to argument. Any limit chosen is ultimately arbitrary to what consensus achieves. I am not particularly swayed that we should lower standards because games x, y and z deserve to be included, however. An alternative criteria has not yet been proposed, so no views on changing it completely to something else. --
ferret (
talk)
00:19, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Thanks ferret; just to clarify, I only referred to
WP:GNG to demonstrate that Wikipedia does not prescribe what "multiple sources" means. Given that the sole claim of this list is that multiple RSes list a given game among the best of all time, the meaning of "multiple sources" is the fulcrum of the discussion here, and we can determine what that meaning is. If you already understood it that way, my apologies, just want to make sure I'm as clear as possible. I also agree that lowering the standard for inclusion to accommodate games that "should" be on the list seems like the wrong way to go.
Phediuk (
talk)
02:23, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
As I've said before, I'd be in favor of lowering the threshold for "recent" games where what exactly counts as recent is somewhat flexible, due to the inherent structural issues newer games have with being represented under the rules as they stand now. I suspect if the threshold was lowered unconditionally everywhere though, this would spark renewed complaints about the page being over-inclusive, per Ferret. (Also, I'd only want to do this with the strong buy-in of Phediuk - the person doing the hard work of updating deserves some deference.)
SnowFire (
talk)
03:59, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I'd be opposed to that suggested solution because it creates the opposite structural issue: that recent journalists are more likely to cover recent games, and there are very few lists of "best games" before 2000 (unless you start dividing by platform). Wikipedia already has a structural problem with
WP:RECENTISM . As for "over-inclusive", that criticism is
WP:OR and not supported by
WP:RELIABLESOURCEs. Treating that as a legitimate criticism might be the root problem with this list. Once you start indulging criticisms that aren't grounded in policy or sources, you end up following a slippery slope of more and more exceptions to guidelines, until you have an article that's out of step with most Wikipedia standards. We'd be a lot better off if we followed broadly applicable policies, instead of editorial opinion about this singular article.
Shooterwalker (
talk)
06:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I agree that, in theory, very old games suffer from a similar problem, although I think the coverage of 80s games is pretty decent as is. That said, I won't repeat myself, but see comments above - even if every list was hugely biased toward games released in the decade prior to its publication, nobody ever ranks games that haven't even come out yet. If in the year 2100 there's a single list from every year from 2001–2100, 2095's hottest game could appear on 5-6 lists at absolute maximum, while a game from 1995 could potentially appear on all 100 lists, giving it a lot more spins of the "does the writer like this game" roulette wheel.
Also, since you seem to be advocating 3 sources as sufficient inclusion threshold - maybe the solution is to break off another list? Not sure what it'd be called, but "critically acclaimed games" or something perhaps. I suspect that just 3 sources will drastically increase the amount of not-really-actually-that-acclaimed games sneaking on from the occasional loopy writer or one who bought into a short-lived hype train, but maybe okay as a separate thing.
SnowFire (
talk)
17:10, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I do see your point. I just think that if we were to have a list of, say, U.S. Presidents, and it were starting to get long, we wouldn't say "I guess we should remove the one term presidents" or "we should remove the presidents with less coverage". You're either a U.S. President, or you're not. By the same token, the only way this list meets Wikipedia guidelines is if it's
verifiable that a game is considered the best, or it's not. What damages this list the most is that there are games that Wikipedia considered the best just one year ago, and they have been removed, despite their
verifiability on multiple "best of lists". They were only removed because editors said so, using an
original standard that they invented, with no basis in sources or policy.
Shooterwalker (
talk)
00:40, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
To try to make the issue more abstract - I agree that for certain distinctions, either you've achieved it or you haven't, like movies that won Academy Award for Best Picture. But there are other distinctions that are more like relative thresholds, like "movies that have received the most Academy Awards". Looks like
List of Academy Award records just shows the three that tie for having received 11 awards at the moment, but
this is a sample (non-Wikipedia) ranked list. That list cuts off at 8 awards rather than going all the way down to 1 award for a "full" list, but if they made a version that used 7 or 9 awards as a cutoff, that's fine. Just a matter of editorial judgment.
SnowFire (
talk)
04:47, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
I've watched this article for a long time, and I've shrugged off the perennial criticisms. But the fact that they come up so frequently suggests that there is something fundamentally wrong with the current approach. Your Academy Award examples are helpful. The
List of Academy Award records is exactly what it sounds like it should be about, which is limited to films or artists that have received the most awards. The
Academy Award for Best Picture has more than 600 films that have been nominated, and as far as I can tell, there have been no editors who insisted on culling the list based on their own judgments. I'd also add, if we deleted some of the complete Academy Awards lists (Best Picture, Best Director, etc.) and just had the record-holders list, the whole topic area would attract more (valid) criticism. Back to the current list, it's supposed be "List of video games considered the best", which would be easily verifiable in multiple sources. But without any reliable sources or policy to support it, it's been edited to become "List of video games that have received the most best of rankings". (I suspect that if the article were named more accurately, it might even be taken to AFD.) So much of this list is based on editorial opinion, and we continue to fix editorial opinion with more editorial opinion, which damages the list more than it helps. We need to fundamentally fix it by going back to sources and policy.
Shooterwalker (
talk)
14:55, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
There is no subjective way you can structure this list without still basing it on editorial opinion/judgement, which is the fundamental problem here. The only way to fix that would be to have this list (and similar ones) not exist at all. But back to the OP's suggestion, I don't see how lowering the threshold improves the page any. ~
Dissident93(
talk)08:37, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
I think the answer is to use the ordinary meaning of the world "multiple" when it comes to multiple sources, in
WP:V. You'd be hard pressed to find a policy based criticism once we do that.
Shooterwalker (
talk)
14:26, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
Multiple doesn't mean 5 or 6. Multiple means more than one, and trying to impose some other meaning is
WP:OR. A lot of the criticism would go away if we used the plain meaning of the word, instead of inventing and debating new standards.
Shooterwalker (
talk)
20:08, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
Every single guideline and policy on Wikipedia started as a form of
WP:OR until it just became accepted as such. I understand your position, but I don't think any of the alternate proposals so far would be an improvement. ~
Dissident93(
talk)09:23, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
Okay, not to hold any sides here, I just want to know what everybody wants to do as of late. All in favor of this proposal, please respond by typing “:yes” in source editing mode. All opposed, please type “:no” in source editing mode. No need to explain any reasoning. (BlueBlurHog) 9 Nov 2021 21:20 UTC — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
BlueBlurHog (
talk •
contribs)
02:20, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Let me repeat myself. This is not some order to change anything, it’s just me asking a question that I want answered by everybody involved in this discussion saying what they want. I’m not asking to change anything, I don’t want to make alterations, it’s just curiosity of what everybody is thinking. Also, forgive me citing the wrong time, I don’t live in a UTC zone. (BlueBlurHog) 10 Nov 2021, 02:32 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
BlueBlurHog (
talk •
contribs)
Support: edit: 6 is an arbitrary number, and nobody provided any rule or guideline to this number, or any solid argument for it. It is obvious from previous discussions that 6 was reached because they didn't want to have a list of hundreds of best video games regardless if backed by multiple reliable sources, but only to include "the best of the best". So, it is logic to assume with time this threshold will be raised over and over again. This idea of "the best of the best" was created by editors which contraries
Wikipedia:No original research, and does not reflects the title of this article. Furthermore, by having the number as high as 6 and possibly with the the raise of this number following past editors' criteria to exlclude viewpoints rather than include viewpoints under the idea of "the best of the best", it violates
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, which instead says to represent "...all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." As such, the minimum criteria for inclusion should 3 reliable sources because it is a minimum for increasing the representation of different viewpoints while also agreeing over a single entry, and seemingly is agreed by editors to be a minimum on the meaning of multiple reliable source on wikipedia.--
Arw2 (
talk)
22:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Original comment: 6 is an arbitrary number, and nobody provided any rule or guideline to this number. A game can be listed as best in genre X in many reliable sources, while it may not be listed in 6 known reliable sources for best games of all time, which validates your point in the by genre inclusivity. So in regards to that, what could be proposed is, the game has to be in multiple sources all time best games (ideally 3+), and multiple all best games in that specific genre (ideally 3+).
Arw2 (
talk)
17:13, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
I'd support 3 as a plain reading of the word "multiple" in
WP:EXCEPTIONAL, but introducing editor opinions around genre or platform would be
WP:OR. I think it's fair to ask that the lists truly be best of all time lists supported by an entire editorial team to meet the standard of "high-quality" in
WP:EXCEPTIONAL, and not lists about singular platforms / genres.
Shooterwalker (
talk)
17:53, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
Right. That might led to lists for particular genres though (which in my vision is a good thing). Now on the number, it seems people reached to 6 to include only "the best of the best", which is not objective and is inaccurate to the article's title. Another thing is that many sources are just lost as can be seem by the high number of archive-only retrieval sources in this article.
Another point I forgot to add is that discussion on having a separate inclusion criteria for recent games is potentially problematic in regards to
circular reporting (I'm not sure if wikipedia has a policy on this though), more than older games, in the logic that they did not establish themselves as other games in relation to time but having wikipedia confirm that might led to editorial teams to find about it on this list and as a consequence increase their chances inclusion on a new list.
Arw2 (
talk)
21:43, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
3 is way too few since most of the publications include 50+ games, which would result in this page having 100s of entries. Again, I understand your point about 5-6 being arbitrarily selected by Wiki editors, but I still fail to see this as an improvement in any way. ~
Dissident93(
talk)09:28, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
What is the problem in having 100s of entries if every entry is backed by multiple reliable sources (which seems to be minimum of 3 as consensus rather than 6)? If there is a problem in quantity, then to be transparent the title should reflect objectively like: List of *insert number* video games considered the best.
Arw2 (
talk)
14:49, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
So this whole thing is just about semantics? Three might be the minimum but how is lowering the threshold and thus increasing the number of games here an improvement? The intended idea of this list (however flawed you might believe it to be) is to present games that are regularly cited by publications as among the greatest of all time. Using the bare minimum of three just seems too few for something that becomes more common if a publication include 100 games, especially older ones as there would have been fewer games for them to chose from. ~
Dissident93(
talk)08:36, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
The whole thing is about Wikipedia policy, and removing
WP:OR is always an improvement. There's nothing inherently wrong with a longer list, and there's no guideline that limits the number of entries here. (I also wouldn't be concerned about older rankings, as the oldest list is from the
Fifth generation of video game consoles. Keep in mind that the boundary between PC and console games only began to disappear with the shift away from cartridges, so there's a reason we only start to see cross-platform lists in the late 1990s.)
Shooterwalker (
talk)
14:47, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
There's
WP:CSC, which says "if a complete list would include hundreds or thousands of entries, then you should use the notability standard to provide focus to the list." Which of course limits by the notability criteria. The problem lies in how we seem to agree that minimum notability criteria is 3, not 6, the latter which is applied in this article from seemingly artificial reasons.--
Arw2 (
talk)
16:54, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Notability is not the inclusion criteria being used here. All of these (and potential) entries are almost guaranteed to pass basic
WP:N and have articles already. --
ferret (
talk)
17:02, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Not just that. It is mainly in how we seem to agree that meaning of multiple sources is minimum of 3 and not 6, while in this article that consensus is not applied because seemingly editors saw as bad in having 100s of entries without further explanation. Again, what is the problem in having 100s of entries if every entry is backed by multiple reliable sources (which again seems to be minimum of 3 as consensus rather than 6)? It seems contradictory to me the way things are currently, so by using the criteria of 3 would eliminate that contradiction, and eliminate the need for things like a separate criteria for recent games.--
Arw2 (
talk)
15:58, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
3REFS is an essay that observes that, in the context of judging
WP:N, which we are not doing here, 3 is typically the minimum observed requirement for notability to be established. It does not represent a consensus that "3 sources is enough". It simply observes that is often the case. It's use in this discussion is entirely flawed. We're not establishing notability.
WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE is the policy that informs
WP:LISTCRITERIA, which is to not make lists with open ended indiscriminate inclusions. Notability is sometimes used as a LISTCRITERIA, but is not useful for this list. --
ferret (
talk)
16:50, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
I did not mention any essay. There's
WP:CSC, which says "if a complete list would include hundreds or thousands of entries, then you should use the notability standard to provide focus to the list." Which of course limits by the notability criteria. How is 6 a reasonable number for inclusion in this list? Why is 3 not reasonable?--
Arw2 (
talk)
17:00, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
The "minimum notability criteria is 3" comes from
WP:3REFS, an essay. It is neither policy nor guideline. You should fully read
WP:LSC, of which CSC is a subsection that offers that Notability is *one kind of criteria* that could be used. It is a useless criteria for this page, as all of the potential entries are notable anyways. We are not evaluating notability. We are evaluating due weight and NOTINDISCRININATE. --
ferret (
talk)
17:08, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Alright. Again nobody did reply why 6 instead of 3. But it is obvious from previous discussions that it was reached because they didn't want to have a list of 100s of games, but only "the best of the best". So, it is logic to assume with time this threshold will be raised over and over again.--
Arw2 (
talk)
19:08, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Another comment: There's constant support votes that are "6 is arbitrary" so we should lower it. All lower values are just as arbitrary. I've seen
WP:3REFS quoted a few times, but need to remind that it's an essay in regards to
WP:GNG.
WP:LISTCRITERIA often uses
WP:GNG as a line, but that's not really applicable here, as all entries under consideration are bound to be notable. LISTCRIT does not forbid what is essentially "arbitrary" limits. Consensus chosen limits of "only the top 10" or "the top 25" or "above x millions" are common and widespread, and take into consideration things such as page length and creep.
List of video games notable for negative reception has a listcriteria that is miles longer than this one and has essentially been cemented by 10 AFDs/RFMs as a valid approach. In short, there's nothing wrong with "Must have X sources". The chosen X is consensus established. It's an ugly case because it really comes down to discussion participants, but the community accepts such cases. I am simply unswayed that we should lower the limit because certain games "deserve" to be included. Perhaps time would be better be spent looking for more sources that are appropriate to use on this list, which might then make those entries eligible. --
ferret (
talk)
17:11, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
I would have to disagree. When we talk about multiple sources in
WP:EXTRAORDINARY, it's that it takes more than one "best of" list to push the "exceptional" claim that a game is considered one of the best. I don't think that means six sources. I do generally have a problem with a lot of subjectively constructed lists, including some of the other examples you brought up. It should bother everyone that this list is effectively created by using an excel spreadsheet analysis off of Wikipedia, making it impenetrable and incomprehensible to most editors, and virtually impossible for an ordinary editor to contribute. I think that type of construction stretches into
WP:OR and breaks what Wikipedia is fundamentally about.
All that being said, this list is better than some of the other examples, because we've been able to keep out some of the pushes for subjectivity, or claims cited to only one source. And with this discussion going in circles, I would say that we share the common ground that it's not about trying to re-fit the criteria to include our favorite games, and I appreciate you trying to build something consistent and neutral. Overall my goal is to try to build a solid encyclopedia where articles are based on transparent, objective, and unoriginal criteria.
Shooterwalker (
talk)
19:06, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
I appreciate that the "must have 6 sources" is a subjective arbitrary limit set by editors. I just don't believe the community has forbidden such, and there's little immediate policy and guidelines that limit how LSC can be applied. Ultimately, LSC is about fighting
WP:NOT issues. I'm happy to entertain other list criteria for this topic, I just feel the "lower it to 5 because x and y games deserve to be here" is a bad argument. --
ferret (
talk)
19:36, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
OP and you are the only ones argumenting about X Y games. Nobody gave a solid argument on the number 6, why it is better than 3 or 4 or 5. I personally don't appreciate artificial numbers that only may become stricter for editors sake (which is analogue to "lower it to 5 because x and y games deserve to be here") and not giving proper explanation. As I said above, it is obvious from previous discussions that 6 was reached because they didn't want to have a list of 100s of best games by reliable sources, but only "the best of the best". So, it is logic to assume with time this threshold will be raised over and over again.
Arw2 (
talk)
20:16, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure what response you're after. You say nobody has given a solid argument on the number 6, then explain exactly what the reasoning was from the past discussion. That's the reason. It's a solid one. The consensus could change in either direction in the future. What I don't see is a solid argument to change it at this time. The nominator/OP posited that it was because certain games deserve to be on the list. That is why I have referred back to that argument, as it's the opening statement for this entire discussion. --
ferret (
talk)
20:26, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
So you basically agree that this list is about the "best of the best" which is an idea created by editors, and by agreeing with that in the future you'd agree to raise that number because with time there will me more games and more games will need to be avoided from the list. I disagree this is a good reason for 6, and I disagree with the idea of only the "best of the best". Wikipedia should be neutral
WP:NPOV, and this includes reflecting the title of this list, not only the "best of the best". 3 is the most neutral to include more viewpoints and likely agreed upon the community as a minimum of multiple sources.
Arw2 (
talk)
20:36, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
I'll keep this brief, but Arw2, discussions are not won by talk page filibuster. They're decided by consensus. The positions ferret, Phediuk, Rhain, myself, and others are backed by the results of earlier AFDs and discussions on the WPVG talk page, which did think over-inclusivity on earlier versions of this list was a problem, and would almost assuredly think that over-inclusivity would be a problem in a 3-list threshold version of the list with the current number of lists consulted. The 3REFs guideline isn't really relevant here per points raised. You're free to disagree, and your disagreement has been noted, but I think we've reached the point of diminishing returns. My suggestion - if you're really set on this, try creating a spin-off list in User space of all the games that a lower threshold would include. I suspect you'll find it's rather unwieldy and not picky, but maybe, maybe there's a spinoff article to be made there. (No guarantees.)
SnowFire (
talk)
22:41, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
If relevant RS lists exist in those languages, we'd be happy to consider them. I have searched myself for Asian sources on Google with little luck, though I note that non-Latin-alphabet sources are difficult to track down for Westerners who aren't fluent in them. Famitsu has done a couple of reader polls, and no one else we know of (yet) has even done that.
Phediuk (
talk)
18:13, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
An English Wikipedia is of course going to prefer English publications and links. The only thing preventing reliable non-English ones from being used is their rarity. Present them here and they will be used. ~
Dissident93(
talk)09:29, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
Ultima Series
I'm surprised that none of the Ultima games are listed on this Wikipedia page especially Ultima IV... That particular game was one of the first, if not the first game to be more than just a hack-n-slash, shoot'em up, rack up as many points as possible. It had a storyline and inspired the player to look deeper into the game's completion requirements. And this from a game (IV) made/sold back in 1986!! Besides, it is included on many of the lists from the Video Game Canon site. Please give it consideration. Thank you.
AA Pilot16 (
talk)
09:08, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
GamesRadar+ just published
its list of the best 50 games. While the order of the top 20 was decided by readers, the information that actually matters—the games themselves, not the order—was selected by a panel of "industry experts and luminaries"; the criteria is outlined more
here, including a list of some of the panelists. The list seems to meet the inclusion criteria, so I think it's certainly worth considering. –
Rhain☔03:45, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for pointing out this list. Note that this is essentially two lists in one, chosen with separate criteria; the top 20 were selected by the Golden Joystick Awards panel (and the order determined by a viewer poll), while #21-50 were chosen by GamesRadar's staff. Whether or not we count the top 20 doesn't matter much, since everything there, except Pokemon Go, is already on the main list. The remaining 30 are definitely good to go, though no new games will be added as a result. I'll incorporate the 30 picks of the GamesRadar staff, at least, sometime in the next couple of days.
Phediuk (
talk)
07:24, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
List:
GamesRadar 2021
1. Dark Souls
2. Doom (1993)
3. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
4. Half-Life 2
5. Minecraft
6. Street Fighter II
7. Tetris
8. The Last of Us
9. Super Mario 64
10. Metal Gear Solid
11. Halo: Combat Evolved
12. Super Mario Bros. 3
13. Grand Theft Auto V
14. Portal
15. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
16. Pac-Man
17. Super Mario Kart
18. Space Invaders
19. SimCity (1989)
20. Pokemon Go
21. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
22. Bioshock
23. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
24. Journey
25. Resident Evil 4
26. God of War (2018)
27. Mass Effect 2
28. Red Dead Redemption II
29. Final Fantasy VII
30. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves
31. Super Metroid
32. Stardew Valley
33. Dead Space 2
34. Dishonored 2
35. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
36. Shadow of the Colossus
37. Inside
38. Bloodborne
39. Bayonetta 2
40. Batman: Arkham Asylum
41. Fire Emblem: Three Houses
42. Destiny 2
43. Hades
44. Forza Horizon 4
45. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
46. Persona 4 Golden
47. Fortnite: Battle Royale
48. Fez
49. Assassin's Creed Odyssey
50. Animal Crossing: New Horizons
There are a few games that belong on this list that haven’t been added yet. I would add them myself, but the referencing in this article is too complicated. If anyone’s up for it, here’s a list of video games I found that should be added to the list (the multiple references needed can be easily found on each Wikipedia page respectively under "Reception"): Dynamite Headdy (1994), Jet Set Radio Future (2002), Viva Piñata (2006), BioShock 2 (2010), and Horizon Zero Dawn (2017). --
Daniel.Nemitz (
talk)
17:18, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
These games aren’t on the list for a reason. There are rules for how this article is managed, you can’t just and a random assortment of games onto it, even if they are universally loved. If, say, BioShock 2 were to be added, it would first have to be cited by 6 different publisher sources; all of which have to be accepted by Wikipedia’s standards of what makes a reliable source, and what doesn’t. To keep it brief and to the point, the sources’ information also has to be from the reporters’ genuine, unbiased word——without any basis on the opinions of others such as what Metacritic does. (BlueBlurHog) 03:08 2 Dec 2021
Possible sources I've come across
Recently, I've come across "The 100 Best Video Games of All Time" by HiConsumption and "The 500 Greatest Video Games of All Time" by Screenage Wasteland. Could these two lists be considered as reliable sources or not? --
Anonymouseditor2k19 (
talk)
03:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Probably not, unfortunately. HiConsumption was discussed before, it's not clear they're really reliable enough:
Talk:List_of_video_games_considered_the_best/Archive_4#HiConsumption . They might be borderline, though, if they've improved since 2019. Screen Age Wasteland, definitely not - 3 digit followers on their Twitter account
https://twitter.com/sawasteland shows that they're closer to an independent blog, and it's not a known journalist - it's someone named "Sailor Monsoon" who doesn't have any sort of bio on their author page at all, so as far as we know it's some college student doing freelance writing by their word or the like.
SnowFire (
talk)
03:53, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
hiconsumption, FORGET THIS, and focus on a second article
I figure I should at least bring this blog from hiconsumption.com to your attention:
https://hiconsumption.com/best-video-games-of-all-time/. You’ve probably never heard it before, well neither have I. Because of that, I’d like a second opinion of if this is within Wikipedia’s guidelines, as I have lost how to find the page. (BlueBlurHog) 8 December 2021, 02:34 (UTC)
Nevermind, I just noticed a discussion above which already dismissed this. Forget this, then. (BlueBlueHog) 8 December 2021, 02:38 (UTC)
Considering that Assassins Creed II was added, and Assassins Creed IV having many times contested Assassins Creed II as the best game of its franchise, I was wondering if it would be accurate to add it too?
1st Duke of Wellington (
talk)
03:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
Alright then, thank you for your clarification; I just wondered. I agree, I'm probably lacking some information and merely suggesting from another game's reviews. I'll let you guys know if I come across any source.
1st Duke of Wellington (
talk)
03:59, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
Disco Elysium
Any chance of getting disco elysium on the list? It got very high review scores and stands out among even games on this list in terms of writing, art and level of execution, especially after the huge free update it got.
172.58.156.91 (
talk)
16:58, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
1. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
2. Super Mario World
3. Portal 2
4. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
5. Super Metroid
6. Mass Effect 2
7. Super Mario 64
8. Red Dead Redemption 2
9. Half-Life 2
10. Disco Elysium
11. Super Mario Bros. 3
12. Grand Theft Auto V
13. Hades
14. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
15. Halo 2
16. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
17. The Last of Us
18. Bioshock
19. Bloodborne
20. Undertale
21. Super Mario Bros.
22. Street Fighter II
23. Portal
24. Chrono Trigger
25. God of War (2018)
26. Half-Life: Alyx
27. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater
28. Tetris
29. Doom (1993)
30. Final Fantasy XIV
31. Half-Life
32. Halo: Combat Evolved
33. Minecraft
34. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
35. Civilization IV
36. Metal Gear Solid
37. Red Dead Redemption
38. The Last of Us Part 2
39. Shadow of the Colossus
40. Resident Evil 4
41. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
42. Metroid Prime
43. Pokémon Yellow
44. Final Fantasy VI
45. Fallout: New Vegas
46. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
47. World of Warcraft
48. StarCraft
49. Diablo II
50. Earthbound
51. Left 4 Dead 2
52. Counter-Strike
53. Ms. Pac-Man
54. Hollow Knight
55. Apex Legends
56. Overwatch
57. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves
58. Journey
59. The Witness
60. Dishonored 2
61. Batman: Arkham City
62. Rise of the Tomb Raider
63. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
64. Control
65. XCOM 2
66. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
67. Silent Hill 2
68. Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island
69. Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory
70. The Sims 3
71. Donkey Kong
72. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
73. Dota 2
74. Return of the Obra Dinn
75. Spelunky 2
76. Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
77. Goldeneye (1997)
78. Fable 2
79. Fortnite
80. Dark Souls
81. Persona 5 Royal
82. Mortal Kombat 11
83. System Shock 2
84. Resident Evil 2 (2019)
85. Monster Hunter: World
86. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2
87. Titanfall 2
88. Inside
89. SimCity 2000
90. Thief II: The Metal Age
91. Animal Crossing: New Horizons
92. Mega Man 3
93. League of Legends
94. Fallout 2
95. Burnout 3: Takedown
96. Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge
97. Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag
98. Final Fantasy VII
99. Divinity: Original Sin 2
100. Borderlands 2
Not to open a can of worms, but we have at least one game now, Undertale, that is listed here because it has appeared in two IGN lists. Something about that doesn't quite seem right. If a game appears over and over in a single publication's iterative lists, does that really count as multiple lists? In this case, lists only separated by 2 years. --
ferret (
talk)
02:51, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Nevermind, I see the inclusion criteria already covers this and the addition has been reverted besides. --
ferret (
talk)
02:55, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Just for anybody else reading this, games have to be mentioned by six separate publications/companies and not just six different URLs to qualify. ~
Dissident93(
talk)10:55, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Multiple games should be considered
In my opinion, there are a lot of games that should've been on this list. Maybe they don't fit the criteria or whatever, but they are truly some of the best games ever (maybe, just maybe, the criteria should be modified?). Here are some that come to mind: God of War (2018), Super Mario Odyssey, Red Dead Redemption 2, Hades, Celeste, Fallout: New Vegas, Hollow Knight, Metal Gear Solid V, Castlevania: Rondo of Blood, The Binding of Isaac, Divinity: Original Sin 2, Persona 5, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, Mega Man X/X2, Doom (2016), Contra III, Donkey Kong Country II, and Gunstar Heroes. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
InterestedGamer (
talk •
contribs)
05:48, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to know: only the original versions can be considered the best games or their ports as well? If ports also matter, which ones? Thank you.
80.214.159.56 (
talk)
19:33, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
It's all up to the sources. Most sources will lists the original game over ports/remasters. However, there are some instances where a publication listed a version with some significant changes over the original. An example is IGN putting Pokemon Yellow in their top 100 games list instead of Red and Blue.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
03:29, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
Public Polls
TV Asahi just released the results of a massive poll of the Japanese public, ranking the top 100 games of all time. 50,000 Japanese citizens took part in the poll and the results were announced as part of a 3 hour TV special. With such a large sample size, it seems like a pretty notable source for determining what games are considered to be the best of all time. I'm going to assume that this list still won't count though, because this page only takes into consideration lists *by critics*, so I have to ask, why is this restriction in place? It doesn't appear to make sense within the terms of the page's title. "List of video games considered the best" you would think would take into account the opinions of the general population, to limit consideration to just critics appears like an arbitrary exclusion method. It's not as though the article is titled "List of video games considered the best by critics", though that is in effect what it is, because you cannot presume a minority of critics is a good sample for what is considered the best by the wider population. A poll of 50k people conducted by a major TV network feels pretty appropriate for inclusion.
2A00:23C6:8281:A501:B946:68BF:BC93:547E (
talk)
18:04, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
The restriction is in place to avoid us including crap like GameFAQs polls (
yes we used to do this). I understand your point, but where's the line we would have to draw to include a reader poll of 50,000 vs excluding one of 500? But I do agree it would be nice to somehow include other forms of critical opinions than just publication lists. ~
Dissident93(
talk)17:28, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for the comments. First, just building on what Dissident93 has said: focusing on critic's lists is not a problem so long as the page clearly defines that focus as such, as the page's preamble does already. Second, in response to Dissident93, the focus on dedicated lists also serves a useful purpose: to ensure that the page is not an indiscriminate list of every time someone wrote "best game ever" in relation to a video game. Hence why we're not sourcing reviews or other routine coverage here. This page's focus is deliberately much narrower, reporting only those mentions of games that appear in editorials specifically devoted to naming games as among the best ever.
Phediuk (
talk)
01:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Fallout 3 and GTA V?
I would like to know what is the criteria for evaluating or what constitutes as the “greatest” games. To my knowledge, both Fallout: New Vegas and Red Dead Redemption 2 are held in much higher regard (by both gamers and critics, alike) than Fallout 3 and GTA V. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
1.47.152.77 (
talk)
14:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Not one single game on this list originating from the most popular home computer of all time, the Commodore 64? It was THE "indie game" computer of its time, and the de facto gaming machine in Europe for many years in the 80s and early 90s. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jabdah (
talk •
contribs)
08:51, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Not one single C64 game is on the page, because there haven’t been enough sources to justify such existence. It’s been said multiple times before; the criteria for video game inclusion is on the top of the main article. Read it thoroughly, because you may have missed something important, like first you need to cite six different credible publishers of already-existing lists (like from IGN, EGM, Entertainment Weekly) before certain games can be added.
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
01:34, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Vandalism
I’ve seen people add games without the proper citations before, so I must ask; how exactly is this page constantly prone to vandalism? I’m not even allowed to edit the article, so how are strangers able to arbitrarily add games in?
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
01:40, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
I’ve noticed that people are able to simply add games that they want onto the page, only for them to be undone later. However, I tried to click the edit button just see what happens, and I don’t have that kind of permission. That’s a good thing, but why and how are a select bunch of strangers able to make these edits only for them to be undone afterwards?
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
15:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Scratch that, I completely misinterpreted the lock icon. My mistake. But still, I clicked the real edit button, just to see what happens, and I had full permission to edit. How is it that permission is not more restricted?
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
15:32, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Looking through the omnibus data, I can't help but notice that some of these lists are well...old. In fact, the oldest were created almost 27 years ago, older than most Wikipedia editors. I think it's not unfair to say that these lists are lacking some much needed perspective, given that the games listed are lacking a dimension. I believe that these lists should be removed and replaced with more recent lists, or at the very least given less weight than lists published last year, because at the moment this page has a very clear anti-recency bias in the games selected. For example, 13 of the games listed are from 1993 alone, while 0 are from 2018-2022.
216.154.44.171 (
talk)
03:16, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
On the contrary if we only include newer sources, the list will be biased toward more modern games. No, the fact that the sources are old and published when the industry was younger doesn't make them less reliable.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
03:53, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
I disagree. If we take IGN's 2021 list of the top 100 Videogames, you'll see quite a few that aren't at all recent. On the other hand, an old list such as the one by Flux, you will not find a single game more recent than the early 90s. Perhaps an article called "List of Video Games considered the best (1971-1995)" would be interesting, but that's not the point of this article. If a game has truly stood the test of time, like Donkey Kong, Goldeneye 007,Super Mario World, or Half-Life, it will continue to appear on best of all time lists as these games have.
Aleaniled (
talk)
21:51, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for the thoughts. I agree with Neocorelight; reliable critical opinions don't have an expiration date. Newer games haven't appeared on very many lists yet, but well, yeah, they're new. There's no rush here; we can add newer games as they appear on new lists.
Phediuk (
talk)
16:07, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
(
edit conflict) @
Kramirez0113: The article is updated all the time—there are two lists from 2021, for example—but no game since 2017 has managed to fit the criteria yet. I'm sure there'll be more soon enough. –
Rhain☔12:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
I personally can't wait for Red Dead Redemption 2, God of War 2018, and Half-Life: Alyx to be added to the list. All of those games are in the latest IGN list.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
12:22, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Unless the author has questions about his reliability (not saying he does), then I don't see any other reason why this couldn't be added. ~
Dissident93(
talk)00:29, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
Nice work finding this. Looks like it meets all criteria, so I'll go ahead and incorporate it. Transcription below:
Digitally Downloaded, 2016
1. Nier
2. Persona 4
3. Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc
4. Doom (1993)
5. Minecraft
6. Metal Gear Solid
7. Earthbound
8. Eternal Darkness
9. No Man's Sky
10. Sonic the Hedgehog 2
11. Civilization 2
12. Beyond Good & Evil
13. Chrono Trigger
14. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
15. Super Mario 64
16. Animal Crossing
17. Soulcalibur 2
18. The Sims
19. Catherine
20. Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth
21. Fatal Frame 2
22. Final Fantasy X
23. Journey
24. Life is Strange
25. Mass Effect 2
26. Mega Man 2
27. Dragon Age: Origins
28. Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade
29. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
30. Samurai Warriors 3
31. Pokemon Red and Blue
32. Simcity 2000
33. Spec Ops: The Line
34. Pac-Man
35. Papers, Please
36. Final Fantasy 6
37. Metroid Prime
38. 1979 Revolution: Black Friday
39. Ori and the Blind Forest
40. Street Fighter 2
41. Bound
42. Yakuza 5
43. American McGee's Alice
44. To the Moon
45. Day of the Tentacle
46. Pokemon Gold and Silver
47. Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE
48. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves
49. Final Fantasy Tactics
50. Double Dragon
51. Magic Carpet
52. Heavy Rain
53. Gauntlet
54. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
55. Half-Life
56. Tetris
57. Kingdom Hearts
58. Little King's Story
59. Garou: Mark of the Wolves
60. Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis
61. Pandora's Tower
62. Super Mario Bros. 3
63. Nethack
64. The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind
65. Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour
66. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time
67. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
68. Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure
69. Valkyria Chronicles
70. Mario Kart 64
71. Suikoden 2
72. Shadow of the Colossus
73. Prince of Persia (1989)
74. Rollercoaster Tycoon 2
75. Yoshi's Island
76. Star Wars: TIE Fighter
77. Super International Cricket
78. Steins;Gate
79. Rock Band
80. Road Rash
81. Wild Arms 3
82. The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings
83. Super Smash Bros. Melee
84. The Last of Us
85. Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos
86. Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord
87. Tales from the Borderlands
88. The Walking Dead: Season 1
89. The Wolf Among Us
90. WWF No Mercy
91. Baldur's Gate
92. Hatsune Miku: Future Tone
93. King's Field 4
94. Space Invaders
95. Lollipop Chainsaw
96. Xenogears
97. Europa Universalis 4
98. Goldeneye (1997)
99. Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager
100. Gregory Horror Show
You know what, I found
a third article that I’d like checked. It’s not on
WP:VGRS, similarly to Tony Mott’s “1000 Video Games You Must Play Before You Die” book, but even if it were, I am unsure if this one from PBS should be included, as it claims to have asked “some notable gamers (some of which are big names in video game history) to share their lists of hits and bombs.”
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
02:04, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
EasyAllies list is not reliable. It's from their forums so is
WP:USERG. While GameRevolution is a reliable source, the list is short and may not have any major impact. The PBS source is no good. It is not a compiled and editorially reviewed list, but a random selection of "expert gamers" from the industry simply stating their favorites and least favorites. One of them says they don't play games and let their 13 year old grandson submit the list. --
ferret (
talk)
02:43, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
It's an issue that's come up before (
archives search). I'm personally not a fan. The two biggest reasons: Table bloat is a thing. Every column needs to justify why it's relevant for a table, especially with many viewers seeing the article on small mobile displays. This requires discipline to avoid adding Every Interesting True Detail as a separate column. Developer is interesting for some games, yes, but, someone interested in the developer or many other facts about the game can just click on the wikilink to the game's article. For this particular article, the important thing is the game itself. The second reason is that developer isn't always clear. Many old games don't have a separate developer studio or just have in-house studio teams, some games do have a separate developer but they don't matter or even have articles, and some modern games have multiple developers (one studio does the PC port, another studio does the DLC, etc.). So even if the information was deemed important enough to include, is it simple enough to really fit in the table accurately? For every Mass Effect 2 where there's a simple and relevant answer like "BioWare", there'll be something like GTAIV, where the answer is the uninteresting "Rockstar North, Rockstar Toronto, Rockstar New England" which says little beyond yeah, Rockstar Games did it.
SnowFire (
talk)
09:48, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Eurogamer or Guinness
This is not a list I want added, but I’m perplexed. Do I credit
this as going to Guinness Book of World Records, or Eurogamer?
On the one hand, it’s from Eurogamer’s own website.
On the other hand, it says the list if from Guinness.
The article also says “The list was decided on by ‘a crack team of industry experts’ and some girl called Ellie.” Ellie being the author of the very article.
It’s nit my interest that this list be added, I just want to know who this lost gets credited to, and at the very least if it is one more source to add to the trash barrel.
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
12:33, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
I assume Eurogamer and/or the author was part of the "crack team of industry experts", and the "some girl called Ellie" is just a bit of light self-deprecation—she says later in the article that she "helped write" the book. If it were to be added, I'd say credit Guinness as the publication, but use the Eurogamer article as the reference. I'd be more interested to see who else was part of the "crack team" of experts, though. –
Rhain☔00:21, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Just for the record, the Guinness list is explicitly for console games only, and it's also framed as the most influential/important games rather than best or greatest.
Phediuk (
talk)
01:12, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
I also found
this. Howchoo is not declared reliable by
WP:VGRS like Gematsu, but because the article is written by the word of the author, I’m curious if it’s possible for inclusion.
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
02:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
The videogamer.com one is just their list of games that they have scored a 10 on, meaning it was not curated and thus doesn't qualify for inclusion. ~
Dissident93(
talk)08:51, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
No to all. Gematsu is reporting a user poll, but even ignoring that, it's the top console games, which is not suitable. Howchoo looks community based, like a sort of Pinterest/how to site. Even if they weren't, I'd be concerned about a "top video games of all time" list with 0 comments on it. This indicates it's not a site with traffic as well. This is a random listicle buried in a bunch of user generated content. Their front page lists a "3d printing" category that has 75 "guides", 299 "subscribers", and 6 "contributors. This is definitely not a reliable source. As for Videogamer, Dissident has the right of it, this is just a database output and not curated. --
ferret (
talk)
14:12, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Need to add more publications
Like seriously, the fact that there is not even a single game from past 5 years proves newer publications and magazines needs to be added in consideration. Games like red dead redemption 2, Fallout New Vegas, God of war, hades, disco Elysium and many other games deserve this spot , more than many old and forgotten games mentioned in this list.
Shank19112000 (
talk)
19:08, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
The problem isn't that we're unwilling to add new lists, but no such valid lists have appeared recently. --
ferret (
talk)
22:11, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
New qualifying lists are added as they appear; for instance, there are two from 2021, and four from 2020. More recent games haven't appeared on very many lists yet because, well, yeah, they're recent. There's no rush here; newer games will be added as they meet the criteria.
Phediuk (
talk)
00:24, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
If your concern is newer games, then it’s best to wait and see if they stand the test of time, as arbitrary and unspecific as it may sound, and then find publications which cite those games as the best—of all time. If your concern is newer lists, then the only lists that will appear here are ones released by reliable sources. You can find some on
WP:VGRS, but there’s no guarantee you’ll find a new list instantly. Just keep looking and you’ll find something.
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
19:51, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Elden Ring
Elden Ring (2022) is one of the best reviewed games of all time by now. I believe it's time that it is included on this list. Thank you
190.237.54.50 (
talk)
16:12, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Nice work digging this up. The list seems promising based on this preamble, but I have not been able to view the full 200 entries yet, and so cannot transcribe it. Anyone have it?
Phediuk (
talk)
20:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
I was able to get access to the magazine via a free trial. Should I just copy the list here or are images needed somehow as evidence? Thanks. --
BenSPVE (
talk)
22:55, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
Well I figure we will need a list either way so here we go:
List:
Games TM 2018
200. Pong 199. Kentucky Route Zero 198. Ducktales 197. Manic Miner 196. Project Gotham Racing 3 195. Elite 194. Space Invaders 193. Hitman: Blood Money 192. Boktai: The Sun is In Your Hands 191. Until Dawn 190. Shenmue 189. Populous 188. Rainbow Six Siege 187. Speedball 2: Brutal Deluxe 186. Bubble Bobble 185. Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 184. Snatcher 183. Ultima Online 182. Outrun 2006: Coast to Coast 181. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney 180. Titanfall 179. Crash Bandicoot 178. SSX Tricky 177. Crazy Taxi 176. Resogun 175. Worms 174. Rocket League 173. The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay 172. Rez 171. Gunstar Heroes 170. UFO: Enemy Unknown 169. Fable II 168. NBA Jam 167. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory 166. Galaga 165. Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain 164. Heavy Rain 163. STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl 162. Ori and the Blind Forest 161. Life is Strange 160. Thief: The Dark Project 159. Sleeping Dogs 158. Sonic CD 157. WarioWare: Twisted! 156. Double Dragon 155. Command & Conquer: Red Alert 154. Kingdom Hearts II 153. Wipeout 2097 152. Divinity: Original Sin II 151. Team Fortress 2 150. The House of The Dead 2 149. Hotline Miami 148. Far Cry 3 147. Peggle 146. Robotron 2084 145. Fallout 144. Eternal Darkness 143. Towerfall: Ascension 142. Persona 4 141. Company of Heroes 140. Metal Slug 139. F-Zero GX 138. Beneath a Steel Sky 137. Guitar Hero II: Legends of Rock 136. The World Ends with You 135. R-Type III: The Third Lightning 134. Ico 133. Bayonetta 132. Super Meat Boy 131. Jet Set Radio Future 130. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 129. Viewtiful Joe 128. Mega Man 2 127. Shovel Knight 126. Viva Pinata 125. Okami 124. Rock Band 123. Tomb Raider 122. Borderlands 121. Fallout 3 120. Papers, Please 119. Fire Emblem (GBA) 118. Katamari Damacy 117. Super Mario Galaxy 116. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind 115. Araknoid 114. The Stanley Parable 113. The Walking Dead: Season One 112. Assassin's Creed II 111. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 110. Day of the Tentacle 109. League of Legends 108. Spelunky 107. Stardew Valley 106. Another World 105. Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker 104. Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved 103. Time Crisis II 102. Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening 101. Hitman 2: Silent Assassin 100. Gone Home 99. LittleBigPlanet 2 98. Demon's Souls 97. Minecraft 96. Simcity 95. XCOM: Enemy Unknown 94. Burnout 3: Takedown 93. Bioshock Infinite 92. Super Mario 64 91. Civilization IV 90. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time 89. Rome: Total War 88. Streets of Rage 2 87. GTA IV 86. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion 85. Braid 84. Overcooked 83. Lemmings 82. Halo: Reach 81. Contra III: The Alien Wars 80. System Shock 2 79. FTL: Faster than Light 78. Earthbound 77. Final Fantasy Tactics 76. Street Fighter III: Third Strike 75. Jade Empire 74. Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos 73. Super Bomberman 72. Goldeneye: 007 71. Dishonored 2 70. Left 4 Dead 69. Alien: Isolation 68. Final Fantasy VII 67. Horizon Zero Dawn 66. What Remains of Edith Finch 65. Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes 64. Bastion 63. Advance Wars 62. Portal 2 61. God of War III 60. Pac-Man: Championship Edition 59. Gears of War 58. Quake III: Arena 57. The Oregon Trail 56. Super Mario Bros. 55. Animal Crossing 54. Deus Ex 53. Counter-Strike 52. Planescape: Torment 51. Donkey Kong 50. Metroid Prime 49. Super Mario Sunshine 48. GTA III 47. Final Fantasy VIII 46. Sonic the Hedgehog 45. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker 44. Silent Hill 2 43. Super Mario Kart 42. The Secret of Monkey Island 41. Dead Space 2 40. The Sims 2 39. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night 38. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild 37. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 36. Resident Evil 35. Super Mario Odyssey 34. Journey 33. Batman: Arkham Asylum 32. Halo: Combat Evolved 31. Diablo II 30. Street Fighter II Turbo: Hyper Fighting 29. Doom 28. Inside 27. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 26. Red Dead Redemption 25. Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence 24. Super Mario World 23. Chrono Trigger 22. Bloodborne 21. Half-Life 2 20. GTA V 19. Final Fantasy VI 18. Starcraft 17. The Witcher III: Wild Hunt 16. Shadow of the Colossus 15. Fez 14. Bioshock 13. Mass Effect 2 12. The Last of Us 11. Super Metroid 10. Tetris 9. World of Warcraft 8. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 7. Resident Evil 4 6. Super Mario Bros. 3 5. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 4. Portal 3. Pokemon Red & Blue 2. Metal Gear Solid 1. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
The album appears to start at entry 200. Was there a previous page introducing the list or talking about how they chose? If you can provide please, as it may help cement that the list is proper (I.e. there weren't any weird conditions like "console only", though I think we're good there.) --
ferret (
talk)
00:49, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
I've also updated the
Visualised Data Table. Maybe we could put this at the top of the page along with the regular list? Might give more encouragement for people to check before requesting games with no extra data to add.
BenSPVE (
talk)
17:24, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
I didn't expect such a quick response. It seems like everyone else has this covered, but I also have access to the magazine if anything more is needed.
UnnecessarySuggestions (
talk)
16:37, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Percentage rather than arbitrary cutoff?
I find the cutoff at 6 mentions quite arbitrary. Wouldn't it make more sense to record for each game the percentage of lists that it appears on, and to let the list be sorted by that metric? Since lists are differently long, I would compute a separate metric for "percentage of top-100 lists". (To save some work, this needn't be expressed as a percentage either, but could just be the absolute number of mentions so long as the number of lists included is clearly stated. The data is there already, in the reference column, but that can't be used to sort or select on...) Better yet, one might correct for the age of a game by displaying the percentage of lists *since its release* that it appeared on. (That would have to be a percentage or an "X of Y" though since the number of lists considered would vary between games...)
2A02:8109:B640:1518:E958:B8F2:2110:5BC0 (
talk)
07:44, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that we name every game that has ever appeared on one of these lists, and sort them by percentage of inclusion? That would be over 1,700 games. –
Rhain☔09:56, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
I've perused the four older Edge lists (2000, 2003, 2007, 2009) to see if any of them are usable. The 2003 list is just a bunch of top 10s for different genres; the 2007 list uses reader votes; and the 2009 list seems to treat "Best Games to Play Today" as a different thing from "best of all time" in its preamble. So, no to all of those. However, the 2000 list from issue #80, titled "The 100 Best Games of All Time", meets all criteria: best games ever, staff-chosen, no platform/genre restrictions, and, being Edge, RS. Segaretro has conveniently preserved the issue
here; the list starts on page 52.
Edge 2000
1. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
2. Super Mario 64
3. Goldeneye (1997)
4. Tetris
5. Gran Turismo
6. Quake II
7. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
8. Street Fighter II
9. Half-Life
10. Super Mario World
11. Pokemon Red and Blue
12. Civilization II
13. Final Fantasy VII
14. Super Metroid
15. Puyo Puyo
16. Metal Gear Solid
17. Super Bomberman
18. Super Mario Kart
19. Tekken 3
20. Tomb Raider (1996)
21. Total Annihilation
22. Grand Prix 2
23. X-COM: Terror from the Deep
24. Final Fantasy Tactics
25. Nights into Dreams
26. Simcity 2000
27. Anna Kournikova’s Smash Court Tennis
28. Tempest 2000
29. Starcraft
30. Soul Calibur
31. ISS Pro Evolution
32. Resident Evil (1996)
33. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
34. International Track & Field
35. Pilotwings 64
36. Colin McRae Rally
37. Bust-a-Move 2
38. Doom II
39. Star Wars: X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter
40. Hidden & Dangerous
41. 1080 Snowboarding
42. Secret of Mana
43. Sega Rally Championship
44. Star Fox 64
45. Wave Race 64
46. R4: Ridge Racer Type 4
47. Ultima Online
48. The Secret of Monkey Island
49. Robotron 2084
50. R-Type
51. Sonic Adventure
52. Bubble Bobble
53. Outrun
54. Stunt Car Racer
55. Speedball 2: Brutal Deluxe
56. Micro Machines 2: Turbo Tournament
57. Death Tank
58. Daytona USA
59. Sensible Soccer
60. Sonic the Hedgehog
61. Virtua Fighter 2
62. The Need For Speed
63. Elite
64. Defender
65. Head Over Heels
66. Super Sprint
67. Mercenary
68. The Sentinel
69. Exile (1988)
70. Grand Theft Auto
71. Shinobi (1987)
72. Contra III: The Alien Wars
73. Rampart
74. Pac-Man
75. Galaga
76. Bomb Jack
77. Return Fire
78. Chu Chu Rocket
79. Gauntlet II
80. NHL ’98
81. Marble Madness
82. Populous II
83. Super Pang
84. Thrust
85. Legend of the Mystical Ninja
86. Xenogears
87. Gradius
88. Lemmings
89. Asteroids
90. Paradroid
91. Boulder Dash 2
92. Wipeout
93. Strider (arcade)
94. NBA Jam
95. Syndicate (1993)
96. Phantasy Star III: Generations of Doom
97. Choplifter
98. Time Crisis
99. Solomon’s Key
100. Super Punch-Out!!
I mean since you replaced four sources with one, does that mean any games that were previously on the list taken down as a result?
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
21:51, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
He didn't replace any sources, he just added a new one. He evaluated four sources there weren't in use yet, but only one was suitable. --
ferret (
talk)
22:01, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Popular Mechanics "The 100 Greatest Video Games of All Time"
It seems like Popular Mechanics may have updated their list of "The 100 Greatest Video Games of All Time", since apparently this list was published eight days ago according to the website. I may be mistaken here and this may be an older list that they decided to repost, but I'll leave it here in case if it's actually an updated version.
So I found EGM's Top 100 list from 1997, and while it fits Wikipedia's criteria for selection (no input from readers, no limiting to one genre, etc.), there are still some oddities with the list, such as listing games twice due to them counting each version of a game as its own game (such as Mega Man X4's Saturn and PlayStation versions being listed separately rather than together). That being said, I'm gonna leave it here and see if it can be implemented into the list.
Apart from the fact that EGM ignores PC titles as a whole, that particular list does not include any console predating the NES, so it is ineligible.
Cat's Tuxedo (
talk)
01:43, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Just to clarify, older platforms aren't specifically excluded from the list; the more important thing here is that EGM only covers console games. So, it will not be used here.
Phediuk (
talk)
02:13, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Index with a bunch of "Greatest Video Games" lists
I stumbled upon this index that has collected around 66 "greatest video game" lists. Some of these lists in question are already integrated into the main page, but I'm gonna leave this here in case if there's one or two lists from this index that aren't present and meet Wikipedia's standards.
At a glance, it looks like Undertale now meets the criteria threshold, with at least six different publications vouching for its prestige.
Haleth (
talk)
13:11, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Yep, this list looks good. Best games of all time, staff-chosen, no platform/genre/era restrictions, RS. Transcription:
GamingBolt, 2022
1. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
2. Red Dead Redemption II
3. God of War (2018)
4. Half-Life 2
5. Elden Ring
6. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
7. Bloodborne
8. Grand Theft Auto V
9. Super Mario Odyssey
10. Resident Evil 2 (2019)
11. Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty
12. The Last of Us
13. Persona 5 Royal
14. Hollow Knight
15. Hades
16. Horizon Forbidden West
17. Forza Horizon 5
18. Ori and the Will of the Wisps
19. Undertale
20. Silent Hill 2
21. Halo 3
22. Control
23. Portal 2
24. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
25. Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec
26. Batman: Arkham City
27. Mass Effect 2
28. Shadow of the Colossus
29. Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory
30. Burnout 3: Takedown
Found a Game Informer list published all the way back in 2001. The only Game Informer lists used so far are from 2009 and 2018, and like with those lists, this was made to commemorate a milestone issue (in this case, being their 100th issue) and seemingly fits the criteria for this page (editor selected, reputable outlet, etc.)
1. The Legend of Zelda
2. Super Mario Bros.
3. Tetris
4. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2
5. Doom (1993)
6. Metroid
7. Final Fantasy VI
8. Super Mario Bros. 3
9. Ms. Pac-Man
10. Final Fantasy VII
11. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
12. Super Mario 64
13. Contra
14. Mike Tyson's Punch-Out
15. Chrono Trigger
16. Goldeneye 007
17. Metal Gear Solid
18. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
19. Galaga
20. NHLPA Hockey 93
21. Gran Turismo
22. Street Fighter II
23. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
24. Sonic the Hedgehog
25. Warlords
26. Crash Bandicoot: Warped
27. Madden NFL 2001
28. Command & Conquer
29. Super Metroid
30. Super Mario Bros. 2
31. SimCity
32. Mega Man 2
33. EverQuest
34. Resident Evil 2
35. Super Mario Kart
36. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater
37. Dragon Warrior
38. Tecmo Bowl
39. Pokemon Blue / Red / Yellow
40. Final Fantasy IV
41. Pitfall!
42. Star Wars: X-Wing
43. Final Fantasy IX
44. Excitebike
45. Final Fantasy Tactics
46. Super Mario World
47. Adventure
48. Castlevania
49. Counter-Strike
50. Virtua Tennis
51. Ridge Racer
52. Lode Runner
53. Metal Gear
54. Tenchu: Stealth Assassins
55. Chrono Cross
56. Tempest 2000
57. Arkanoid
58. The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
59. Tekken 2
60. Donkey Kong
61. Sonic the Hedgehog 2
62. Civilization
63. Baseball Stars
64. Gauntlet
65. Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest
66. Bionic Commando
67. Ghouls N Ghosts
68. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
69. Resident Evil Code: Veronica
70. Zork
71. Banjo-Kazooie
72. Robotron 2048
73. Twisted Metal 2
74. Soulcalibur
75. Double Dragon
76. Dr. Mario
77. Secret of Mana
78. Panzer Dragoon Saga
79. Pro Wrestling
80. The Sims
81. Age of Empires
82. Suikoden
83. Kid Icarus
84. RC Pro-Am
85. NFL 2K1
86. Tomb Raider (1996)
87. Hot Shots Golf
88. Road Rash
89. Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
90. Super Bomberman
91. Mario's Picross
92. Cool Boarders 2
93. Ninja Gaiden
94. Phantasy Star
95. NBA 2K1
96. Tetris Attack/Panel de Pon
97. Mortal Kombat II
98. Starcraft
99. House of the Dead 2
100. Ape Escape
Hi, thanks, but GI's 2001 list is a reader poll. They replaced the preamble for this online version (the print version goes over the voting process in detail), but everything else, including the text of the entries themselves is identical to the print version, with a few of the entries still referencing the voting. So, it won't be added.
Phediuk (
talk)
22:52, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Regarding the Top 20 entries of GamesRadar's 2021 list. According to the
article, they "were shortlisted by a panel of industry experts and luminaries, and voted on by the viewers of the Golden Joystick Awards". To me, this means that the top 20's inclusion in the list was decided by industry experts/luminaries, with their rankings decided by viewers. The top 20 should thus be taken into account here albeit unranked.
This article explains the selection of the top 20 in greater detail. What do others think of this? --
Wrath X (
talk)
05:52, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
I thought the same thing when I
found the list. Considering that the panel consists entirely of reliable journalists (and a few developers), I see no reason for the top 20 to be excluded. –
Rhain☔06:30, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Somebody claims that
this is EGM’s 1997 list.
But is EGM an accepted source for this article? I don’t remember if it’s been brought up before, though I have a shaky feeling it has. Someone let me know?
BlueBlurHog (
talk)
01:33, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Following the full inclusion of the GamesRadar 2021 list, I think we should probably incorporate
this list, too. Similarly to the GR list, it was chosen by the GameSpy staff with solicited input from industry experts (ie., journalists and developers.) Since there were no objections to such an arrangement with the GR list, I believe GameSpy's is also suitable for inclusion. It meets all other criteria as well: no platform/genre/era restrictions, clearly noted as "our list of gaming's best", and reliable source.
GameSpy, 2001
1. Doom (1993)
2. Half-Life
3. Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness
4. Civilization
5. Quake
6. Diablo
7. Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar
8. Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
9. Starcraft
10. The Legend of Zelda
11. Super Mario 64
12. System Shock 2
13. Duke Nukem 3D
14. Age of Empires
15. Everquest
16. Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings
17. The Bard’s Tale
18. Deus Ex
19. Tetris
20. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
21. Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord
22. Civilization II
23. Final Fantasy VI
24. System Shock
25. M.U.L.E.
26. Star Control II
27. Asheron’s Call
28. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
29. Counter-Strike
30. Street Fighter II
31. Command & Conquer
32. Metal Gear Solid
33. Simcity (1989)
34. Wing Commander
35. X-COM: UFO Defense
36. Baldur’s Gate
37. Baldur’s Gate II: Shadows of Amn
38. Goldeneye (1997)
39. Zork
40. Thief: The Dark Project
41. Ultima III: Exodus
42. Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny
43. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
44. Marathon
45. Planescape: Torment
46. Super Metroid
47. Quake II
48. Ultima Online
49. Empire: Wargame of the Century
50. Total Annihilation
The omnibus data visualised has also been updated. GamesRadar 2021 Top 20 was also added a while ago, I just forgot to comment.
BenSPVE (
talk)
14:54, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Hyper's 1997 and 1999 lists
Hyper has published several top games lists over the years, which I will summarize here; all issues may be perused in
this archive (thank you to user TarkusAB for bringing this collection to my attention.) We have already incorporated their 1995 list. As for the rest, here goes: there's a top 50 in issue 84 (2000) that's really a "best games of the generation" list, a top 100 in issue 100 (2002) that's actually 10 different top 10s, a top 100 in issue 113 (2003) that's a reader poll, a top 50 list in issue 144 (2005) that seemingly-deliberately does not actually state that it's a list of the best games (basically every staff member contributes a game they wanted to talk about for whatever reason), a "101 Games You Must Play" list in issue 260 (2015) that explicitly says it's not a best games list, and a "200 Games You Must Play" in issue 269 (2018) that does not clearly state it's a best games list either. However, I believe the issues from issue 50 (1997) and issue 73 (1999) are acceptable for inclusion; they're a reliable source, staff-chosen, clearly about the best games, and are not subject to any platform/genre/era restrictions. Therefore, I see no reason not to include them here. The 1997 list, which is unranked, is titled "The 50 Best Games Ever!" on the cover and "The 50 Most Shit Hot Games Ever" in the issue itself; I hope no one minds if I cite it under the less-vulgar title. The 1999 list, which is ranked, is about naming the "greatest experience in gaming" according to the preamble, and is just called "The Top 50 Games of All Time!"
Hyper, 1997
Quake
Doom (1993)
Wipeout (series)
Ultima (series)
Final Fantasy (series)
Diablo
Virtua Fighter (series)
Street Fighter (series)
Tekken (series)
Barbarian
Gauntlet (series)
Samurai Shodown (series)
International Superstar Soccer (series)
Prince of Persia (series)
Bomberman (series)
Virtual-On
Command & Conquer
Warcraft (series)
Another World / Flashback (dual entry)
Virtua Cop 1&2 (dual entry)
Dark Reign
Tobal 1&2 (dual entry)
Nights into Dreams
The Legend of Zelda (series)
Star Wars: X-Wing / TIE Fighter (series)
Donkey Kong (series)
Shadowrun (SNES)
Metroid (series)
Castlevania (series)
Tomb Raider (1996)
Monkey Island (series)
Simcity (series)
Super Mario 64
Descent
Pitfall (series)
Spy vs. Spy
Ghosts 'n Goblins
Tetris
Daytona USA
NBA Jam (series)
Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee
Civilization (series)
Mario Kart 64
Elite
Sega Rally Championship
Time Crisis
Sonic the Hedgehog (series)
Way of the Exploding Fist
Lemmings
The Elder Scrolls (series)
Hyper, 1999
1. Quake (series)
2. Mario (series)
3. The Legend of Zelda (series)
4. Doom (1993)
5. Wipeout (series)
6. Street Fighter II
7. Warcraft (series)
8. Sonic the Hedgehog (series)
9. Civilization
10. Ultima (series)
11. Tetris
12. Mario Kart (series)
13. Goldeneye (1997)
14. Diablo
15. Virtua Fighter (series)
16. Sam & Max Hit the Road
17. Elite
18. Final Fantasy (series)
19. Gran Turismo
20. Tekken (series)
21. Metal Gear Solid
22. Gauntlet (series)
23. Command & Conquer (series)
24. Tomb Raider (series)
25. Lemmings
26. Pac-Man
27. Simcity (series)
28. Ghosts 'n Goblins
29. Prince of Persia (series)
30. Half-Life
31. Breakout
32. Sega Rally (series)
33. Resident Evil (series)
34. Baldur's Gate
35. Star Wars: X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter (series)
36. Grand Prix Legends
37. Unreal
38. Metroid (series)
39. Galaga
40. Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee
41. Soul Blade (series)
42. Zork (series)
43. Double Dragon (series)
44. Descent (series)
45. Defender
46. Final Fight
47. Bust-a-Move (series)
48. Raiden (series)
49. FIFA (series)
50. X-COM (series)
Due to the high number of "series" and dual entries (which are not counted), there isn't that much to add, but there will still be two more games added to the main list once these are incorporated: Mario Kart 64 and Baldur's Gate. Will add them shortly.
Phediuk (
talk)
19:53, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
We already have Esquire's 2020 list on here, but they also did another top 20 in 2018, titled "The (Real) Greatest Video Games Of All-Time". It meets all criteria: reliable source, editor-chosen, clearly about greatest games, and no platform/genre/era restrictions. So, if there are no objections, I'll incorporate it. The list is not ranked. Here's the transcription:
Esquire, 2018
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
Battlefield 1942
Mario Kart 8
Pro Evolution Soccer 6
Tetris
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
Theme Hospital
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2
Snake (mobile)
Broken Sword: Shadow of the Templars
Pokemon Crystal
Super Mario 64
Goldeneye (1997)
Batman: Arkham City
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
Portal
Metal Gear Solid
The Secret of Monkey Island
Pokemon Go
Final Fantasy VII