This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Mormonism and the
Latter Day Saint movement on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Latter Day Saint movementWikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movementTemplate:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movementLatter Day Saint movement articles
Graphics
It would be nice to have some graphics similar to what is available
this page, or
this poster. I'll see what I can do with MapPoint.
Columns
I was trying to think of some columns that could be different than
List of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that would be more "geography" focused. I was thinking we could include the numbers of wards/stakes included within the temple district - those kind of things. And leave sq ft and style off.
Flags
I mean flags in the sense of small graphics to indicate status - maybe we could use a Green Dot for completed and operating, a red dot for underconstrution, a orange dot for being renovated, a red circle for announced but not under construction or something like that. We could also do the same to indicate size/construction style of the temples
I think that the idea of the graphics is nice, but I personally dislike the graphics that you are putting in. It's mainly the fonts - the Comic Sans Serif and the Script fonts both make me ill when I look at them, they seem so unprofessional and tasteless. Otherwise, the graphic looks all right.
Bhludzin04:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)reply
Mexico
Unless the Church hierarchy officially defines it as a part Central America for its own internal purposes, Mexico should be moved from Central to North America. Neither Mexicans nor Central Americans see Mexico as belonging to Central America.
Bolivian Unicyclist13:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)reply
I was thinking the same thing. I am workingn on some maps, so will change it when I get to it.
I see you re-ordered Mexico, but I see Federal District is at the top and not in the list alphabetically. Is there a reason why?
Bytebear17:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)reply
Combination of a couple of factors: the D.F. is "officially not a state", so I thought maybe it'd be better not to mix it up with the states. Also, I wasn't sure whether to alpha-sort it by "D" or "F" (although, as things stand, that's not an issue until Durango gets a temple). No argument if you want to move it.
Bolivian Unicyclist18:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)reply
Makes no difference to me. I just figured you had a reason, being specific about the order, otherwise. I was thinking of moving Utah, California, East US and West US to separate sections, to coincide with the maps. This isn't a real need so if you have objections, I won't bother. It just seems odd to have the Utah map so far from the Utah entries.
Bytebear21:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)reply
I added all the maps finally. I tried to be consistant, but had to hack a few of the maps to get them to look right, so please don't complain if the borders aren't correct (or even there). I also am having problems with the labels on the Oceania map, so if you know how to edit maps, please help. I may add some global maps to tell you where you are, but I think people should be able to figure it out.
I have been thinking about this particular list, and I think that maybe the Style column should be dropped. The Style column is on the comparative list and that list can be sorted geographically if anyone wants to look at the temple architectural styles relative to geography. In this list, the Style column data looks too crowded, and it pushes the map image off to the right. When I made the list, if I had envisioned the maps, I would not have included the Style column, but now that the list is a collaboration I feel obligated to ask before removing it. Any objections or thoughts?
Bhludzin21:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure about the "edit" button... If it could be just a bit larger (like the size on the other two lists) it would be legible. Also, I think it would look better right-justified in the cell (with the temple name staying left-justified). Other than that, it looks great. –
jaksmata04:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)reply
I can't figure out a way to right justify text within the cell (that is the way that I would prefer it as well) - without splitting it into two cells which then creates additional problems - do you know of a way? --
Trödel15:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)reply
I updated
User:Trödel/Sandbox3 to reflect the right justification. I also split out the US into 4 regional areas, West, Utah, Southwest, East - and updated the manual table of contents to reflect that change. --
Trödel17:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)reply
I think that looks good. I was thinking of using html "div" tags and thier "align" property, but I understand that not everyone likes doing that. –
jaksmata13:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the answer. Maybe some day Warsaw will have a normal temple. Diversity as far as religion is concerned is much neaded here. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.205.82.20 (
talk)
21:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)reply
It is not a stake center, there is not stake in Poland. Temples are special buildings that have very different uses than regular chapels. There are only 141 operating temples world wide, but there are 3,000 stakes, and the LDS Church probably owns in the neighborhood of 10,000 chapels, while using several thousand more rented buildings, although the last two figures are total guesses (the 3,000th stake was formed last November, and about 10 more have been organized since).
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
02:27, 4 April 2013 (UTC)reply
File:Papeete Tahiti Temple.jpg Nominated for Deletion
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
If the image is
non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no
fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.
I would also point out that the Philadephia Temple should be shown in Pennsylvania, and the Washington Temple should be shown just north of DC in Maryland.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
02:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)reply
Looking at it more closely, all of the dots on the Asian map are off on their coordinates. I poked around a little, but the coords in the templates seem to be accurate, so I'm not sure what needs to be fixed. ···
日本穣 ·
投稿 ·
Talk to Nihonjoe ·
Join WP Japan!
23:00, 27 December 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Tristan Surtel and
Nihonjoe: there was a serious problem with all the markers in
Template:List LDS Temple World Map. basically, they required manual placement by changing the |x= and |y= parameters. I updated it to use the latitude and longitude values provided by the data templates instead. for places without a definite location, you can use |map_coordinates= to specify the pin placement. I will have a pass at adding this parameter for some of them. and, I still need to make a corresponding update to the regional maps ...
Frietjes (
talk)
17:12, 25 January 2017 (UTC)reply
The
Quito Ecuador Temple status is "completed" which is a status not previously listed. I've added it to the color scheme as a blue icon rather than the default red since it's status is located between groundbreaking and dedication. Blue is already used for "under construction", "dedication scheduled", and "dedication postponed". Color schemes are handled by
Template:LDSmap.-
Dmm1169 (
talk)
21:54, 3 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Operations suspended
The
Kyiv Ukraine Temple status is listed as "Operations suspended". I've assigned the status color as "Black" which is also used for "Closed for renovations" and "Rededication scheduled". The church still owns the temple, it hasn't been destroyed/operated by others, and therefore I would have to assume that it will reopen once conditions warrant. Color schemes are handled by
Template:LDSmap. This change is needed as may be used more frequently in the future for other temporary closures due to political unrest, disease outbreaks, and renovations. Black refers to temporary closures and does not apply to temples permanently closed, destroyed, operated by others, or delayed/suspended before initial dedication. See
Template:LDSmap for more info.-
Dmm1169 (
talk)
23:28, 7 March 2022 (UTC)reply
New fields, removing unnecessary fields
Proposal to add rededication/open house fields and merge/remove unnecessary fields in the process. These fields may be used in infobox templates, the extended list template shown in LDS in [Country]/[State] pages, possibly the temple comparison pages, and potentially future pages. The fields cannot be added until all LDS Temple templates have it included, otherwise it will cause an error in the display. See
Template talk:LDS Temple#New fields, removing unnecessary fields for discussion. --
Dmm1169 (
talk)
12:54, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Memory Issues
This page is getting close to reaching the maximum memory. I noticed this after I had added links to icons in the page
Template:LDS Temple Map World. I added "|link=List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by geographic region#[Page Section]" to each temple listed in template. This was added so clicking on the icon will bring one to the section the temple was in. Unfortunately, this resulted in templates not being displayed in Philippines and Oceania sections (last two sections).
Most memory usage is in the templates. The most commonly used templates (used 300+ times in this page) include:
Template:Location map~ are used for maps. I like the use of
Template:Location map~ with its ease of plotting using geographic coordinates than finding x,y coordinates for each temple for each map. Because there's generally 2-4 temple icons per temple, this template is used roughly 1,000 times in this page.
Template:LDSmap is used to automatically change color according to status. This is used for each temple icon and uses a single switch command.
Each temple template (ie.
Template:LDS Temple/Salt Lake Temple) is applied roughly 3-5 times in this page; at least twice for map (header, local, and many times also used for regional and vicinity maps of nearby areas), and once for table. Most Wasatch Front temples for example are used for icons in Word (header), USA map, Utah Map, Wasatch Front map and Table. The Smithfield Utah temple is used on the Idaho maps in addition to what's stated above. Multiplied by 335+ temples, it gets used a lot (roughly 1,300 times). This number doesn't include the repeated use of this template within
Template:LDS Temple geographic.
There's been about 35 temples per year announced in recent years so at some point this memory issue is going to come up again if nothing is done. Simplifying these templates can save memory, although the maps are essential. Also, had the name of the page been shortened to something like "LDS Church Temples by geographic region", this issue may have also been avoided in the short term due to its frequent use in some of the templates.
Splitting the page such as what's done with
Membership Statistics pages when it got too big may also be a solution, and likely the most favorable solution. Have a main page and split the United States Temples on another. This is the option I'm leaning towards and will implement it if there's no objection. Thanks -
Dmm1169 (
talk)
09:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Is the topic here even notable? It seems like the notable topic is List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and this is just a different way of arranging the same information.
Horse Eye's Back (
talk)
14:14, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Horse Eye's Back, In short, these are two different pages, and the content mirrors the topic of their respective page. The right portion of the table is the same information but the left hand side (the main purpose of this page) is not. Nor is section organization, listing order, etc. the same. The entire purpose of this page is to provide that information.
List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not show it geographically, no maps (other than the one that links to this page), no geographic groupings, etc, nor provides that search/sort option. Having multiple lists for similar content with but with different presentation is generally acceptable and common. For example, the entire content for
List of states and territories of the United States is found on several other lists. Thanks -
Dmm1169 (
talk)
16:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Horse Eye's Back, Please read my comments above before replying. I'm not looking at splitting every continent off from the main page. Splitting off the US should suffice and seems like the best option. This would leave page for US States and a page for world countries (as explained above).
Another option is reducing the size of the page through reducing template size. Is there some redundancy in the coding that can be removed? I haven't been able to remove much without removing functionality or content. Since I've started editing this page, I've changed the maps, I've removed redundancies I've found in coding, but I have not changed the overall content other than additional temples or split the page. This is what I'm trying to get feedback on before editing.
"which other lists would those be?" A number of pages listed in
Template:US state and territory lists and a number of others use the content stated in the page. Again this is one of many examples.
As for content, this is not all the same content (as explained above). There's more to the content and intent for this page than the text you're referring to.
There's no time limitation to challenge a page, but looking at the Talk page above, you're the first in more than 17 years of this page's history to challenge the validity of this page's existence. To put it into perspective, this page was created five years after the launch of Wikipedia. Thanks. -
Dmm1169 (
talk)
19:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
If splitting the page (likely a page for US States and a page for world countries), what should be the name of the new page?
LDS Church Temples in the United States
Temples in the United States (LDS Church)
List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by geographic region (United States)
List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (United States) - which is similar to
Membership statistics format
Something else?
I noticed some LDS Church pages uses the full name of the church and some uses LDS Church. Is there a standard for page title? I noticed
MOS:LDS explains use within the page but doesn't specify how the title should be presented. Thanks -
Dmm1169 (
talk)
19:59, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
So the main page would just provide links to continents? Is there a need to split by continent? I saw one reference to Africa having the fastest growth, and major divisions for this Wikipedia is by continent, but I don't think it needs to split that way.
The main reason I think the US should break off is page structure. Here's why:
1) Keep current page page structure intact. The US page is created with this being the main page. All US Temples will be located on the US page and not this page. Links to each other's pages appropriately placed. This would be similar to what was done during the
breakup of Membership Statistics in 2008. Links to the US page would be in header, world map template, and where US section would lie. The US page would link back in
Template:Main and link in map.
If split by continent, would this page be a disambiguation page? Would the "see also" for
List of Temples page need to accommodate all of these pages?
2) Separating out the US will simplify the TOC dropdown menu for existing page and newly created page. Currently one has to scroll past all US states to click "Mexico" and will still be the case if "North America" page was created. All US state subsections would move up a level making it possible to expand/collapse the list of states.
3) A US breakoff would consist 2 pages (1 world/ 1 US) rather than 6 pages (one for each continent). All temples in countries outside the U.S. will be on the same page.
4) A U.S. split will solve the memory issue for the foreseeable future. Not an advantage over the continent split, but just as feasible.
At current rate of announcements at 35/year (highest it's ever been, but has been at that level for a few years now), it will take at least 6 years to meet today's memory capacity on the main page. The US page would take much longer. While 35 newly announced temples is possible for next year, the current pace of announcements I think is unsustainable for several years unless there's active membership growth/attendance to back it. Plus with potential advancements in memory capacity over that time, it's going to take quite some time, if ever, to max memory capacity again with the current usage per temple.
5) Lopsided demographics by continent. Not a significant issue in my opinion for page split (other than needing to split off enough so the memory problem isn't encountered again in the near future), but thought to bring this up.
Current breakdown for all 335 temples announced, under construction, and dedicated:
55% North America (41% of all worldwide temples are in the U.S.). The demographics would be further lopsided if former temples/efforts suspended announcements were included.
16% South America (71% of temples are in the Americas)
9% Asia
7.5% Africa
6.5% Europe
6% Oceania
Asia+Africa+Europe+Oceania = 29% < 41% in US > 30% Americas outside the US
2023 Announcements (35 announcements). While there's some shift where its being announced, it's still geographically lopsided.
15 North America (12 in US)
8 South America
6 Asia (3 in the Philippines)
4 Africa
1 Europe
1 Oceania
Asia+Africa+Europe+Oceania = 12 = US announcements > 11 Americas outside the U.S.
I'm assuming when you stated LDS in Africa, LDS is Asia, LDS in South America you weren't stating page name. This page is specifically talking about temples and not the church as a whole. I think this would confuse it with [LDS in Country/State] pages.
I would assume page name would need to include the "Temple", identify which church, what location, and possibly geographic location purpose, although specifying the location may already indicate geographic purpose. Is it better to have the official name or the abbreviated form used in Wikipedia? (See examples above) Thanks -
Dmm1169 (
talk)
16:14, 17 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I think splitting by region would suffice. We could go by the geographical areas of the Church or by geographic region. If we just want to split off the US temples for now, I can get behind that. As far as a name for that page, I'd suggest List of temples in the United States (LDS Church). The first line of the new page can then reference the full name of the Church, which is consistent with the MOS.
Jgstokes (
talk)
18:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Jgstokes, Thank you for your input. So are you recommending split into US and rest of the world or split page among regions of the world? I would not use church area as a region in this case as many of them would require custom maps to be created. Four church areas cross continental boundaries (Caribbean, Europe Central, Europe East, and Middle East/North Africa). In addition, church areas are prone to change much more frequently than political boundaries. Going by continental or political boundaries would be the easiest in this case as locator maps are already available for them.
I'm going to move the US temples just to get the page operational for the time being. I'll use your idea for name. This isn't necessarily the final arrangement or name as that will come hopefully by consensus. Modifications can be easily done at any time if consensus dictates. Thanks -
Dmm1169 (
talk)
01:47, 18 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Something else just occurred to me: Should we consider renaming the new page? I was wondering about splitting it off by continent. If we were to do that, then we'd include Canada and Mexico in with the United States as all of them are geographically considered part of the North American continent. And moving Mexico and Canada to the new page would free up additional space here. It's also worth mentioning that I've heard a great deal about future temple construction, and if even 10% of the feedback I've received from various sources is accurate, we will probably have to look at sectioning off other regions into their own pages as well. Would any of this be worth taking into account now? Thanks.
Jgstokes (
talk)
07:19, 18 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The United States is a country, not a geographic region. Do you have a proposal for geographic regions to break this list into? Also note that we try to avoid
Americentrism so a split into "America" and "rest of world" is a non-starter. I would also caution you that your editing appears to be bleeding into promotion of the LDS church which is strictly prohibited.
Horse Eye's Back (
talk)
14:35, 18 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Like I said, I could see Canada and Mexico joining the US page as a North American region. I'd suggest South America, Asia (including the Philippines), Europe, and Africa be their own pages as well. Thanks for your concern, but I've edited articles about the Church and other subjects for 16 years now, and for the most part, my objectivity has never been questioned. My editing history speaks for itself. If you see my edits here as "promoting the LDS Church", that's your prerogative and you can report me for it if you like. Your call.
Jgstokes (
talk)
18:31, 18 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I assumed you were talking to me because your comment was directly below mine. To avoid such confusion in the future, it may be wise to address your comment to the editor to whom you're replying. And being a member of an organization shouldn't preclude anyone from editing on any subject of which they have knowledge, as long as those edits follow Wikipedia's policies. Bandying about accusations of potential COIs willy-nilly could be interpreted by some as a failure on your part to
assume good faith. I don't see it that way myself, but can see how others could potentially interpret it that way. That said, as I stated in my last comment, dividing this list into several articles by world region may be the best possible solution. Just my thoughts, which you can take or leave as you choose.
Jgstokes (
talk)
02:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I indented appropriately, a competent editor would not have been confused so no corrective action is required. Do you also have a COI? Having a COI doesn't mean you're prohibited from editing on a topic, most don't rise to that level... Promotion however is prohibited whether or not you have a COI. What exactly is your COI?
Horse Eye's Back (
talk)
15:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Northeast United States is also a region so is Southern California, yet they're smaller than a country. The boundary between the US and Canada is a geographic boundary, so is the US border with Mexico. The page Geographic Region Is still divided into Continents. Countries were used as a subsection of continent. However the U.S. spans multiple continents (North America and four temples in Oceania).
Before the split the page was over capacity to the point where it was functional. As a temporary measure (as mentioned above was to move the US out of the main page so the page can be functional again while discussion continues. This can change again depending on what consensus determines. A page move and copy/paste additional content is not that difficult if consensus decides something else.
The main page (not including template use) had 134,195 bytes prior to the split. Since the split and at time of writing it was 77,646 bytes (World) and 56,874 bytes (US). Again, this was intended as a temporary measure until consensus determines otherwise.
I prefer to see input from more than two other users. I don't know how it can be called a general consensus if the discussion just between the three of us.
Dmm1169 (
talk)
02:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Linking: I'm ok with splitting by continent as long as I know the practicality of doing so. What would be the best way of doing so? Do we split by the six populated continents, or just pull North America out? How are other pages, navbars and other templates going to link to these pages? Do they need to provide links to all six pages for continents, or to a disambiguation page? What will be the ease of getting to and around these pages? Are we making it harder to do so be separating it like this. I've got other but more minor concerns and these able to be handled/tolerated if consensus goes one way or the other. So, if the issue of linking can be addressed, I'll be ok with continental split for pages.
Titles: Whether we decide to keep the current arrangement or do something else, should we rename this page to List of temples by geographic area (LDS Church), List of temples in Africa (LDS Church) etc. to keep naming consistent between these pages? Thanks -
Dmm1169 (
talk)
02:39, 20 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment: A two-page solution for breakup in my opinion is best. This could either be done by either breaking off the US or North America as a whole. If a North America page is created, "United States" needs to be a section and not a subsection. This does make a North America page feasible which is desired by both
Horse Eye's Back and
Jgstokes. However, I don't see a need for every continent to be a separate page as temples on these new pages are going to be more hidden than those on the main geographic page. Also there's currently a stark difference between titles of both pages that need to be address.
Details for my comment
2-page options: Removing North America from current page reduces this page to 69,592 bytes. This is a reduction of a little more than 8,000 bytes. This is partly due to Canada and Mexico using templates for map data. This would mean the North America page would have roughly 65,000 bytes making the split roughly half of the page. Looking at recent growth trends, 34% of recent announcements are US temples and 42% are North American temples.
Whether the break is done by breaking off the U.S. or all of North America, it's not anticipated to max out memory anytime soon with either page with either setup. However, it is more evenly split as a North America page instead of a US page. To prevent excess scrolling in TOC dropdown on top lefthand side of page, the "United States" section can be a section but not a subsection of the page.
3+ page options To try to evenly break data to thirds by data, It would be one page for US, one page rest of the Americas, and one page rest of the world. This would make the US page a grandchild page of the main page (hiding US temples even further), and the Americas page a child page of the main page. This is because the US (stateside) alone is 41% of existing temples, 42% of before-split page data, as well as a 1/3 of recent announcements (1/3 of recent growth). Consequently, breaking this into thirds for data-break purposes doesn't appear the ideal option unless absolutely needed.
Titles I think there needs to be consistency in format for titles between the two pages.
List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by geographic region and List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (United States) (original page format)
List of temples by geographic area (LDS Church) and List of temples in North America (LDS Church) (as recommended by
Jgstokes)
The idea is that there won't be a main geography page... Why would there be? Also just a technical note but this page is not overloaded (only 70k), we're not even half of the way to where we would generally consider a split to be required (200k). Perhaps I should have started by being clear that this page is not close to reaching maximum memory.
Horse Eye's Back (
talk)
18:36, 20 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Horse Eye's Back, Prior to US temples breaking off it was 134,195 bytes. I'm seeing >100k as "Almost certainly should be divided or trimmed." in
WP:SIZESPLIT and
WP:AS. The 134,195 didn't include template usage. That's why the page wasn't able to fully load prior to split. Where are you seeing the 200k requirement?
You and Jgstokes suggested it be split by continent, and currently just the US had split off. That's what I was checked feasibility of splitting North America off and including US temples with the North America page. I saw this feasible as long as "United States" is a section and not a subsection, and with caution that those temples going to the new page will be slightly more hidden/less viewed than the main page. However I still suggest against making every continent a page as I see page linking as an issue. You were quick to make that recommendation for every continent a page without addressing the linking issue. The current US only split is also feasible and I thought keeping most temples on the main page was best, but I was alone in that recommendation. Thanks -
Dmm1169 (
talk)
13:55, 22 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Thats 100k of readable prose which is generally about half of the total (and here appears to be even less than half, for example the page currently only has 777 bytes of prose). I have no problem loading the older/larger versions.
Horse Eye's Back (
talk)
16:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The navbar and oceania temples were not appearing at the bottom of the page prior to split (still like that in the before-split verison in "view history" in my browser). This was fixed with the split made last week and expected to work for the foreseeable future. I tried but couldn't find a way to reduce the page without reducing functionality, let alone handle future announcements of temples. This is the only reason I recommended and executed the split. If you know of a way to noticeably reduce the memory usage without reducing content and functionality, let me know - I still prefer that over the split.
Linking issue is for the number of pages with existing links to this page. Ya'll proposed to split this page by the six populated continents without addressing where these pages, navbars, and other templates should link. Should the "North America" page be the main page and the disambiguation page for the rest since it has more than half the existing temples? And, how is it better than what been done already? You never addressed this. Thanks -
Dmm1169 (
talk)
17:32, 23 October 2023 (UTC)reply