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Archive 1 |
I added the following note to the article: "This list is for jargon that is in common usage. Do not add terms used in your home game or that you personally think are clever. If you add a term, please add a reference supporting its inclusion here in the edit summary or this article's discussion page. Additions that are unreferenced will be removed." Maybe some folks will think that is too strong, but I think it addresses both issues here: removing entries people don't bother to explain, and getting some source evidence to prevent this from being a hopeless pile of "original research". 2005 23:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Common usage!!!! Just because someone in your dorm used the term once, doesn't make it common. I just ripped out a bunch of the Texas Hold 'em slang. I may have removed some legitimate ones (if you can call slang legitimate), but I was really trying to get the junk out. I figure any legit ones I removed will find their way back in. I (a little) research to back up my decisions for what remains - I found a couple really comprehensive glossaries (that didn't look like wiki-ripoffs) and used those as my benchmark for common usage. Wasn't in there or I hadn't already heard it, gone. Dirty job, but someone had to do it.-- Toms2866 01:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed a bunch, but we probably should eliminate a few more. I'm no authority at the slang terms, but it's not my first time to the rodeo either. I propose removing the following unless their common usage can be confirmed or vouched for.
The following I've heard or seen, but would benefit from an explanation:
-- Toms2866 15:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This page is tagged for not having references. How does one reference a table of slang? A list of external links at the bottom to Internet poker glossaries is not particularly appealing (potential for spam abuse). Even then, there's no easy way of knowing which slang terms have a reference and which do not. Putting footnotes after each term would clutter the content and would make spam watching even tougher. Any ideas or opinions on how (or even whether) to "reference" the slang terms?-- Toms2866 21:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I reformatted the page into tables. original version I think the tables make the page look a little less haphazard. I've also moved a fair number of terms from the Poker jargon page (and removed them from that page!).-- Toms2866 20:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Upon the creation of Dead man's hand as an article, rather than a redirect to this talk page's article, Talk:Dead man's hand was "given custody of" the history of the talk page that had been built up under the title Talk:List of slang names for poker hands (since 2 of the 3 talk edits): that is to say, Talk:List of slang names for poker hands was renamed Talk:Dead man's hand.
At that time, the section #Made-up stuff was removed from Talk:Dead man's hand and added below (since it concerns what stayed on List of slang names for poker hands. [Belated sig: -- Jerzy (t) 03:20, 2005 Jan 5 (UTC)]
There's too much made-up stuff here. I removed the more obvious items, but I imagine there's still others. - Furrykef 02:03, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC) [Cut & pasted from Talk:Dead man's hand as discussed above. -- Jerzy (t) 03:22, 2005 Jan 5 (UTC)]
Look, there's too many hands put out-of-sequence. The list, as it currently stands, is largecard-smallcard. E.g. 6-9 is 9-6. T-J is J-T. The reason for this is because it's easier to locate the hand in question in this order, especially because ace-x almost always has a name tied to it, and 2-x rarely does. D.valued 06:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I suggest this article be merged with Texas Hold'em Hands. Both contain the same info, save that the other article includes more math and more focus on the better-known hands. D.valued 05:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
This entire article seems to suffer from being rather difficult to verify. Without comprehensive external sources, there is no way for a single editor to determine whether an unfamiliar slang term has just been made up, or is simply of a local or regional nature. For that matter, there is no clear criteria to establish what level of usage a term should have before it warrants inclusion. I would assume that something used solely at a single regular game should not be included. As for just how to go about establishing such a consensus, I have no idea.
As a side note, there are several rather obscure connections in the list which could benefit greatly from an explanation. -- Trystan 17:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I won't clutter the actual article, but I always thought Ace-Jack should be called "Action Jackson". Therefore, I lobby for it here. Barkman 15:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
What about "Slick Willy" for AJ? I hear it used all the time on poker shows and elsewhere. I realize that it's not very old as it comes from the Bill Clinton nickname, but it's very very common nowadays. Livedo 21:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Just seemed funny to me that in the process of cleaning up, you deleted the three names I have actually heard in casinos for this hand (houta hand, can of corn, mississippi slick) and kept one that I've never heard used (michael jordan). But obviously a lot of anonymous posters are putting vanity names on here, and I understand you need some kind of method to filter the entries. But relying on web search apparently exludes some names that are common in use (in my experience) and subject to vanity names that have found themselves onto some other website. BTW I have seen other websites use the name "hooter hand" for 3-2 but this is a corruption of the original name "houta", named for a mississippi dealer. Keep an eye out for houta, I think I saw him dealing at the wsop last year; if you see him then you can "verify" the listing Kymacpherson 13:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I added an entry for The Sik. If you don't believe that this is a real hand, check out http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/lessonBeginnersHoldEm. This hand became so popular on Pokerroom's forums that they once created a promotion designed around it.-- Mickeyg13 03:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I added Walking Sticks back in for 77. I hear this quite frequently, and have actually never heard them called "Hockey Sticks." SmartGuy 18:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Somebody at IP 170.69.248.21 seems hell bent on including "Mullets" as a nickname for 77. I've never heard of this, but enough with this damn edit war already. It's been added and then reverted at least 5 times recently. If the person at 170.69.248.21 can provide some kind of source for this name, please do so here. SmartGuy 19:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone should should create an ambiguation page or something. Pocket Rocket is the name of a toy.-- Architect1 22:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Could someone create an ambiguation page for Big Slick? It's also the name of an upcoming novel by Eric Luper. Thanks! -- Tem2 22:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The "computer hand" term predates the many post hoc justifications that have been created for the name; it's origin is simply as stated--the author of a bad simulation once recommended it, suggesting that perhaps it ranked high because it made lots of one-card straights. It was pointed out to him that that's not true and that the sim was clearly bogus, but the name stuck as a joke. It has since been pointed out that it also happens to be pretty close to a 50% equity hand head up, but this too was after-the-fact and not part of the etymology. There is no "real" reason for the name of the hand, other than the early joke--it is just what it appears to be--junk. I'll try to track down references for this, but until I do, please don't change it without a specific reference for your etymological claim. LDC 00:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I have additional links to support the change to "average starting hand" [ [7]] [ [8]]. I had originally read it in a poker book (may have been the Cloutier & McEvory book) I'll need to look. This [ [9]]contradicts that so maybe it was a faulty computer simulation. Regardless the part about making staights is way off.-- Jbgiunta 14:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
--
All of the citations above are secondary sources--online dictionaries and such, and therefore meaningless. The earliest real citation I can find is this 1998-12-18 rec.gambling.poker Usenet post from Margie Heinz, poker room manager of the ElDorado in Reno:
The whole point, in other words, is that the "most straights" theory was of course as ridiculous as the "median hand" theory, but the fact that the computer sim somehow picked that hand gave it the name--specifically to ridicule the programmer of such an obviously broken program. LDC 18:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I would tend to agree, but it seems to me wothwhile to include a bit of history somewhere, and to counter the post-hoc "median hand" theory, which many of those sources quote as if it were serious. Brief etymologies are certainly not out of place in definitions, even of slang terms. LDC 07:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
It's bogus for two reasons: first, the "median hand" idea simply isn't true no matter how you define it. Second, even if it were, that's not the true etymology of the term, which is well known. I knew Ron Goll (the computer programmer in question) myself, and I read the Card Player article in which the term was popularized. The "median hand" idea is nothing but an afterthought post-hoc justification for a term that was already in common use. -- LDC 05:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I have heard "beer hand" and "beer nuts" in use for 7-2 in several places, so I wouldn't call it a vanity entry--I've reinstated it. -- LDC 19:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Google turns up a dozen online dictionaries with the term, which are fine for judging the popularity of the term if not the etymology. --LDC
Fair enough--if you want to remove "beer nuts", go ahead, but I think you go too far in assuming that the mere absence of other Internet references makes an entry "vanity". Poker--even Hold'em--predates the Internet by many years, and much tradition and slang just hasn't reached here yet. You can, for example, find long-standing poker commentators like Gabe Kaplan describing hands like "Motel Hand" and "Johnny Unitas" that most old hold'em players know well, but that may not be referenced on the net anywhere. I have used my own personal judgment to decide which to include, and I think that's entirely appropriate, since I have been playing poker in casinos longer than many Wikipedia contributors have been breathing air. I'm all for having some standards, but I think it needs to be more relaxed than "found somewhere else on the net"; indeed, we should strive to be a better source than most of the net sources. -- LDC 22:01, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I think having editors with real casino experience is exactly the point--their experience is more valuable than mere net references. For example, in over 25 years of playing in casinos I have never heard the term "hammer" in reference to the 7-2 hand even once--it seems to be purely an internet thing, with no currency in the real world. But I've heard "Motel Hand" used not only in Vegas, but on TV, in California, and even Atlantic City. To me, the former probably doesn't belong here, but the latter does, and the fact that I can't find explicit references for it isn't that important--I am the reference, and my value as a source should be judged by others with experience in the field. This is neither "original research" or "vanity"--it is simply acknowledging that we are in a non-academic field where much experience just isn't yet published either on paper or on the net. -- LDC 02:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. This is something of a "popular culture" subject, so it's entirely appropriate for sources to be held to a lower standard--that's why things like online glossaries are usable despite the fact that they are almost universally self-published and copied with no concern for scholarship of any kind. The line between "personal experience" and "original research" in a popular culture subject like this is a difficult distinction to make. I think having talk-page discussions like this, where all authors clearly identify themselves and make their case, is a good way to make articles on subjects where there simply aren't any reliable sources. -- LDC 05:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
beside 7-2 offsuit is not the worst hand, though 3-2 offsuit despite its better straight chances in texas hold'em is the worst hand
I removed the statement about "nuts" in the Hold'em section. The term was common poker slang long before Texas Hold'em came along, and is properly found in the general poker glossary. Indeed I suspect, but cannot find a good reference to back me up, that the term predates its use in poker. -- LDC 05:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Slang glossaries violate the following policy:
Wikipedia is not a dictionary or a usage or jargon guide. Wikipedia articles are not:
Due to the many AfDs which are initiated to enforce this policy and due to the resistance to such deletion by defenders of the glossaries, I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Slang glossaries to rewrite the policy in order to solve this problem and to readdress this question: should slang glossaries by allowed on Wikipedia? -- List Expert 23:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The pinochle hand should absolutely be in there. Anybody who has played pinochle recognizes that card combination as the pinochle when it is dealt to them in a poker game.
Are you dense? Do you not realize that there is nothing "vanity" about the pinochle hand?
K3 is also known as krablar (or king krablar if suited), and it should definitely be added to the list.
I heard that also in TV, but I'll try to find some backing, if someone has proof for that please link here.
Yes, both 10-2 and A-Q are called "Doyle Brunson". The former because of his winning the WSOP with it, the latter because he is famous for saying that he hates the hand and never plays it in no-limit hold'em. -- LDC 03:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Added Q8 "Kuwait". It's common. Leave it up. I offer this source at Pokerheaven.com [13] as a reference.