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I suggest we refactor our respective comments on this page into sections, as it is getting very confusing:
I'll leave this up for a while & then endeavour to mercilessly refactor it all myself ;-) -- Tarquin 04:07 Jul 26, 2002 (PDT)
Mr, anonymous 209...our convention here is to add text to the BOTTOM of talk pages. Please follow it. The rest of my comments will be there.
*= Opinion
Arthur Hailey, (1920- ) indefatigable* researcher Gabriel García Márquez, Nobel Prize for Literature (1982), One Hundred Years of Solitude? (1967), journalist, publisher, enthusiastic8 third-world leftist, avatar* of magical realism?.
Jeffrey Archer, peer, perjurer and author of best-selling but poorly-reviewed* novels. (* this is more than opinion - it is false. There was much critical acclaim for Kane and Abel: check the NYT - London Telegram etc. etc. etc.).
G. Ballard, disturbing* novelist, wrote Crash, Empire of the Sun (Disturbing to who? Not to those who bought the book and certainly not Kronenberg and the masses that flocked to his movie.)
Daniel Defoe, journalist, wrote Robinson Crusoe (1719), Moll Flanders, wrote more than 500 books, accounted the most prolific* author in English. (False: Dame Barbra Cartland wrote twice as many)
Rudyard Kipling, journalist, imperial propagandist*, masterful short-story writer, poet, author of Kim (1904) (Subjective - History shows things change, i.e. George Washington, Thomas Edison and his slaves. Place in time is relevant because of the then world perspective.)
J.R.R. Tolkien, described by one critic as a `radical Luddite'* ??(This OPINION adds value? To whom?), he wrote the most popular work of fiction of the 20th century. (How did he arrive at ?Most Popular? Seems to me, most popular can only be defined as unit (book) sales. Therefore, the most popular (by far) is Robert James Waller ?Bridges of Madison County) at 60.13 million. ) Should I keep going with this nonsense that has no place in an ?Encyclopedia? The "List of Novelists" is not. And an idex with notes and personal (subjective) opinions does not exist in any encyclopedia in any language in any country. Do you want an Encyclopedia or a personal toy for a few?
It was my understanding this is an encyclopedia not a place for organizing personal preferences that are factually incorrect. As such it should be factual if it is to be of assistance to the world at random. If this "List of Novelists" is limited to only those who write novels, that is fine. But, people like Frank McCourt, du Chatelet etc. cannot be listed here. (And, I can assure you he does not wish to be listed as a novelist or she anything but an essayist.) According to Websters' - Brittanica etc.: Novelist: Someone who writes novels ---- Novels: An extended fictional work in prose; usually in the form of a story.
Why then start creating dozens of catagories when, in fact and according to Websters' - Brittanica etc.: Authors / Writers: Writes (books or stories or articles or the like) professionally (for pay). Too, because the list is long why clutter an "Encyclopedia" with comments & opinions on the index page. If one does it, more and more will start adding their own comments and opinions. (Aside: Encyclopedia's do not contain opinions of any kind). Eventually the additions will become so plentiful, the names of the AUTHORS will be lost and it will take forever to search the list. The joy of those who appreciate the literary world is discovering more info about a known author or learning about a new or unread author. One accomplishes this easy, by quickly scanning a list and clicking! .... 209
If you like 209 I can move this list to the more generic List of authors (unless somebody complains). But please do not destroy added value mark-up placed on this list by others. -- mav
I actually prefer novelists. I think it is more specific. Danny
To the anonymous 209... who is removing some of the short glosses: stop it. If you want to replace them with some you think are more neutral, that's fine, though I honestly can't even see any problem with the ones you removed--they were simple statments of fact--indeed, one was just the name of a book! This is not editing, it's vandalism. "Naked" lists of links are boring and pointless; a little extra information with each helps to better identify and provides a little extra info. -- LDC
I removed this commentary, but it does bring up a good issue:
I don't disagree, and we need some criterion for who to include on this page. My personal preference would be "anyone who has, at any time, published a novel", regardless of what they might be more famous for. If they don't qualify on that score, then yes, move them to "list of noted writers" or something. Please don't remove the info though--move it to the right place. -- LDC
About Stefano Benni, I apologise for my previous removal, merely due to a general local consideration, here, that does not usually include him among the most important italian novelists (right or wrong might it be); as a matter of fact he IS a novelist, and I admit that judgements and classifications in this field very easily risk to be non neutral or extremely subjective. This obviously was not in my intentions, and Benni had to be there. A list should be potentially infinitive.
Now, there is also space, I believe, to considerations that might take into account the cultural enrichment (when merely examined as an historical datum for what it produced or otherwise caused) that each author effectively gave origin to by his works: not to decide by this criterion whether to include him or not, but simply to have intellectual pens listed just a minute before ideological pencils. It is not a political position: Emilio Lussu, due to a general local consideration, here, is usually included among the most important italian novelists (right or wrong might it be), and he had an undiscussed different political weight on the same side of the barricades. Usually Emilio Lussu comes to mind just a few minutes before Benni.
It was only strange (to me) to see that Wiki's list mentioned Benni and not D'Annunzio. Est modus in rebus. -- G
209, I think you misunderstand the function of the short glosses added to list items. They are meant to be short bits of identifying information, not serious article content. They serve several purposes; one, they help people find authors they might be looking for without knowing the exact names; they make the article itself more interesting to read rather than a boring collection of links; and they serve as the most basic "stub" info for entries that have no article at all. They are not intended to be full-on article content. If some of them are too long and distracting, feel free to shorten them. In this case, I think most of the comments should just be the name of a novel or two, or some other info by which someone might remember the writer.
It's perfectly OK for these comments to express brief opinions, especially if they are widely held. The articles they point to should take more care to attribute all opinions and report any controversies (it can still have opinions of course, as all articles can--if you think otherwise, then you further misunderstand our neutrality policy), but since the short glosses here aren't meant to be real content, and must be short, it isn't as critical to do that. Of course, you're still free to replace these comments with others if you think the present ones are seriously flawed, but a simple thing such as "early master of science fiction" for Jules Verne and such are perfectly fine.
Yes, it is also a problem that some of the entries here aren't "novelists". Well then, help us out--ADD some information about those who you think shouldn't be here, put that information here on the talk page and we'll decide where to put it. Our job here is to create information, not destroy it.
Finally, you would gain a lot of credibility here by logging in with a user name and participating as part of the community here rather than being anonymous. -- LDC
The intro (which I just rewrote, but not in that part) says "by country", but it's a mix of by-country and by-language (Catalan, Yiddish). I'm tempted to move "Catalan" to be a subentry under "Spain", but "Yiddish" is a trickier problem. Vicki Rosenzweig
Language is a closer indication of cultural affinity than country, I think -- Tarquin 04:07 Jul 26, 2002 (PDT)
Quoted above: The purpose of the list pages is to bring every novelist together under one heading, not to be an index page.
The list did not bring "novelists" together, it brought "Authors" together. Repeat for the umpteenth time: Novelists write only fiction. Example: Hemingway was not a novelist but an author because he wrote for newspapers etc. Same thing applies to many on the list. Plus, many have never written even one novel. If you like I will start removing everyone on your "novelist" list who is not. It will shrink dramatically which would be stupid. Anyone who searches Wikipedia for du Chatelet etc. would never look in novelist but they would look in authors. Change it to authors and put (leave) everyone there as is. Authors covers it all.
Putting in personal comments opens the door to promoters and becomes a self-serving list only. The note serves to draw attention therefore those with a twist or passion etc. for certain genres or authors will promote theur view or their own/relatives/friends etc. book. Get rid of opinions, dates (now how that is relevant to literary ability is beyond me) if this is an encyclopedia because encyclopedias are for learning factual information. Exploring a list, making a discovery and LEARNING is what this site is all about.Or maybe I just don't understand that "Wikipedia" is really a forum for opinions and should be avoided by anyone with a thirst for knowledge of facts.
Arthur Hailey would in fact object. I can guarantee that.
AVATAR: The manifestation of a Hindu deity (especially Vishnu) in human or superhuman or animal form.
Amen. God bless America. ... 209
P.S. Tarquin 04:07 Jul 26, 2002 (PDT)said: Language is a closer indication of cultural affinity than country, I think. -- Nuts! Nancy Huston is a Canadian citizen living in Paris who writes her NOVELS in French and in English. She does not translate her work. She writes in both languages as do a few others on this list of "novelists". Why start segregating into more areas? This list is fine the way it is, just rename it so that the title is correct and reflects what the list contains.
P.S.S. I note from certain bios and comments is the frustration many express over the editing. If you express an opinion, or make an incorecct comment, on the INDEX, then the editing starts. Before long, this "LIST OF NOVELISTS (AUTHORS!) will be one more incomprehensible jungle. Is that what you want? Take the time to put your comments inside. And, if you have time for an opinion etc. on the INDEX why not click and print it where it belongs. That way it is neat, precise and can in fact be edited, added to etc.
While I'm at it, here is a perfect example quoted from above: Kipling was an imperialist propagandist, a fact that has to be dealt with by anyone who deals with Kipling seriously. Your comment is reasonable, but too long to be in an annotated list. It belongs in the article on Kipling (perhaps a bit more thought through; I don't think Thomas Edison had too many slaves. Here we have someone saying his/her comment is okay but another one is not. Who makes him/her judge and jury? Alas, the editing will begin on the INDEX page!
So if someone logs in using a phony name and an e-mail address for that purpose, it gives them credibility? At least I can be tracked by my computer number.
Listing by country, in my opinion, has been a good thing. I think that someone from a particular country will be motivated to 1) Provide input on existing names and 2) to insert new names of authors from their country. If it is puerly alphabetical, few people have the time or inclination to search to see who or who not from their country is or is not listed.
LDC: Yeah, but the difference between your reworking and 209's was that your's makes sense. His didn't. user:sjc
Am new to Wikipedia and found it interesting and useful. However, after reading this list of "novelists", I must agree that the title is in fact very misleading. The personal called 209 is right in that a novelist writes only fiction while this list contains numerous persons who are not novelists at all. (example: Patrick White of Australia won the Nobel Prize for a biography) Someone searching for some of the people on this list would never dream of searching under the name "novelist", so perhaps a better classification might be Authors of Books which covers everyone in this list and is more specific. Thank you. Susan J.
Hi again, I'm guessing that anyone not "logged in" is a "209". Have to say this, but I have examined some Wikipedia pages and think they are well documented, informative, and professionaly presented. However, this "List of Novelists" is confusing and is factually incorrect. What this is, is a list of Authors, some of which are novelists. Therefore, for professional presentation and CREDIBILITY, I think, for factual purposes,it should be labeled as nothinhg more than "Authors" with only the list of sub-categories as above, one of which would be (is) novelists (those who are principally known for books of fiction). Then, volunteers can start moving from the list of novelists, those who actually belong in a different category. Also, add new catagories such as "Journalists", i.e. Woodward or Bernstein etc. Too, I agree with the other 209 person that in an encyclopedia, which by definition is a presentation of facts, is no place for personal opinions, points of view, or comments. Facts yes, like Pulitzer Prize winner. Thank you. Susan J.
P.S. I also do not believe that this is a proper place to refer to someone as an "adversary" or any other derogatory term when they are expressing a point of view that one may not agree with.
OK, if the list is factually incorrect, then it needs to be fixed or separated, not re-named. A list of "authors" is like a list of "men" or a list of "people" (as previously stated.) I am willing to do the one-by-one work of weeding out those not novelists, alright? Now, what should I do with the deleted ones? Transport them to where they DO belong? (I'm pretty new) Sara Parks Ricker
I hope there's a middle ground between "hippes loved him" and "His quest for meaning in life...". I like the tree idea for pages -- though I'm not sure by country is the best sub-classification of writers. By language or by century -- but since we're committed to some duplication, why not have all 3 ways? --
Tarquin 09:19 Aug 2, 2002 (PDT)
Yes, it's looking like it's all coming together. Or unravelling itself. Choose your metaphor :-) I can move
Authors -- I now have magical sysop powers :-) In fact, let's go discuss on
talk:authors, this page is taking forever to load now! --
Tarquin
Dear 209.91.166.26,
What´s the point of removing valid pieces of information and referring to this process as NPOV? Is humour per se biased?
Best wishes,
80.108.19.76
Despite discussion above, this area of the Wiki seems to be a bit of a mess - we have a whole lot of cross-cutting lists, all requiring to be maintained separately (a good illustration of the sort of thing a database does better than a hypertext).
As a first step to sorting out the chaos, what would people think of the following modest proposal: where we have a separate page giving a list of novelists for the country, we abolish the section in this page referring to that country, and replace it with a link to the separate page (transferring any names that aren't duplicated, of course). So this page would gradually become a list of lists, except for countries whose novelistic output is rather small.
To go further would involve deciding how many types of list we really need. I would suggest that there are three - lists by nation, lists by genre, and lists by period. That would mean someone writing an article on a new author would just (!) have to make sure that s/he was entered on the three relevant lists.
That still leaves unresolved the relationship of this page (and its various families of daughters) with the wider List of writers family, though. A global list of all writers, or a list of all writers from any major country or language community, is bound to be too long to be useful. But I can see the use of a list of Breton writers (regardless of what sort of writing they did), for example.
Finally - whoever got the idea that only someone who only writes novels could be called a novelist? "Maugham was a fine short story writer, a good novelist, but no better than a journeyman playwright" is a perfectly sensible thing to say (I have no idea whether it is true of Maugham, though) - just as it is sensible to describe me as "a fast cyclist but a poor swimmer".
seglea 08:50, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
[List of novelists] redirects here. It no longer makes sense to have the article at [List of novelists by nationality] when the shorter title is available. No other list exists. -- Jia ng 02:30, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The Portuguese novelist Eca de Queiros is shown as a blank here. However a perfectly good stub already exists. Can someone make the link please?
I have only just spotted the problem. This page has a mis-spelling. It should be Queiros not Queiroz
I was very suprised to find that there wasn't a Wikiproject for Authors/Novelist (whichever you wish to call them, I understand there has been considerable debate and the lines are now clearly drawn), as the biographies I have seen are disorganised and unclear at times. Being a German language student, I was extremely surprised to find that Friedrich Duerrenmatt wasn't even listed as a German writer. A wikiproject could be useful in organising articles, and drawing attention to them. It would also not be too difficult, as there is already a wikiproject biographies. Unfortunately, I am not very qualified, except possibly in "Der Besuch...", being only 17!
Some reaction would be nice, to gauge the interest and the potential level of involvement, and also whether i have got something very wrong!
Thanks, Mark Lewis 18:10, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I removed the Somalian Abidsalam Issa-Salwe from the list. He is a writer about political issues, not a novelist. S710
Isak Dinesen appears under Denmark and Kenya both, how do you determine nationality - place of birth? last place of residence/citizenship? where would you put Vladimir Nabokov, Malcolm Lowry, and Henry James, to name but a few. AshcroftIleum 04:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Proposing creating seperate "List of Australian novelists", deleting them here & replacing with a link to that list. This for the obvious reason that it's too long for this page even without my recent additions of novelists already having articles. Will probably do this in about a week. Does anyone have any comments/suggestions? Bsnowball 12:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Ang Lee should NOT be listed under China. He is from Taiwan. I want to add a few more Taiwanese authors to the list, but I darn will NOT list them under China. Soon enough, I will add Taiwan to the list, move Ang Lee there and add other notable Taiwan authors. ludahai 魯大海 13:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
A discussion has been started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries/Lists of countries which could affect the inclusion criteria and title of this and other lists of countries. Editors are invited to participate. Pfainuk talk 13:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
This article contains several novelists assigned to more than one nationality and some novelists are assigned to wrong nationality. This is especially noted for Serbia nationality related novelists. Some of them are Yugoslav, Bosnian, Montenegrian, Croatian, etc.. Kebeta ( talk) 18:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)