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![]() | On 29 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Governor of Alaska. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
I'm trying to determine who the governorship goes to if both Palin and Parnell go on to Washington. Anybody? Beeblbrox ( talk) 18:53, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Since the order of governors used in this article appears to be determined by what Sean Parnell is currently proclaiming himself to be on the state of Alaska website, I felt it would be appropriate to copy and paste this discussion over here, just in case anyone reading this and not the other page can be of help. Originally posted to Talk:Sean Parnell:
governor number
His website states that he is the tenth governor of Alaska, but the Wikipedia page says that he is the twelth. Does anyone have information about this discrepancy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.69.112.208 ( talk) 22:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I hate to keep harping on this, but so far, all anyone has done to prove that Parnell is the tenth and not the twelfth governor is to point to the website of the Office of the Governor, specifically this page. Taking something you find off of the web as gospel without further discernment is certainly problematic. My experience as an Internet user predates the existence of the World Wide Web. It used to be that "I read it on the Internet, it must be true!" was correctly recognized as an in-joke, not a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Let's dissect two other statements found on the same page:
Governor Parnell first served in the Alaska House of Representatives in 1992 at the age of 29.
Actually, he was first elected to the House in 1992 at age 29. His 30th birthday occurred in between the election and his being sworn into office.
In 1973, Governor Parnell came to Alaska at the age of 10, when his father, Pat, was stationed at Fort Richardson.
Every other source I've read states that Pat Parnell was stationed at Fort Richardson several years prior to the birth of either of his two sons. Without explicitly stating so, Pat Parnell's 1990 campaign bio indicates that he was at Fort Richardson in 1958 and 1959.
The point I'm trying to make is this: it appears as if weight is being given to these statements solely on account of their source, without regard to factual or historical accuracy or completeness.
Like with another issue I addressed recently, has it occurred to anyone that reviewing more than one source may be necessary in this instance? Let me introduce another one, namely: Metcalfe, Peter M., ed. (1991). Alaska Blue Book (Tenth ed.). Juneau: Alaska Department of Education, Division of State Libraries, Archives and Museums..
On page 8, it says:
Walter J. Hickel was elected Alaska's first Independence Party Governor on November 6, 1990. He was sworn into office on December 3, 1990, becoming Alaska's seventh Governor since statehood in 1959. He also served as the state's second Governor from 1966 to January 1969.
On page 19, it says much the same thing:
Walter Hickel became Alaska's second governor in 1966, and its seventh governor upon his election in 1990.
This book is the exact equivalent to today's State of Alaska website, and carries the same weight. The only difference should be obvious, that a web page is easier for the average person to access. With two different governors claiming different things in historically equivalent media, this tells me you need to dig deeper. I don't recall this issue being addressed in Alaska's constitution, but I haven't had the time to pour through it to make sure. In the absence of that, is there a statute, executive order or Supreme Court ruling? That's what you need to go by, not some random thing you find on the web. RadioKAOS ( talk) 02:35, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Of course, any help in resolving this is appreciated. Lacking that help, it puts the existing order as found on numerous Wikipedia articles in doubt. RadioKAOS ( talk) 02:50, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
I'll get back to the other issue when I have enough time to offer a response which does the matter justice, which I don't have today.
Political Graveyard and Who's Who in Alaskan Politics both refer to Mottrone, rather than Mottrom, Ball. I would guess that someone misread an old document they found at the National Archives. I have also come across a few contemporary sources, but they refer to him strictly by his initials, as M. D. Ball. RadioKAOS ( talk) 01:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
As the category tree continues to grow exponentially (really more like willy-nilly, but people keep pretending to ignore me when I don't "act nice"), a conflict exists with Category:Governors of Alaska, the category closely corresponding to this list. The problem lies specifically in Alaska's lengthy pre-statehood history and how that conflicts with the prevailing categorization scheme for governors of U.S. states, the majority of which appear to have very limited pre-statehood histories. There is also a problem with our use of "Alaska Territory" in categories, particularly the lack of consistency in its application. In article space, "Alaska Territory" refers to the legal status of Alaska from 1912 to 1959. In categories, it can mean either that or a lengthier period going back prior to 1912; the latter includes Category:Alaska Territory judges and Category:Delegates to the United States House of Representatives from Alaska Territory. I'm just seeking an understanding about consistency, so please avoid any hair-splitting exercises regarding what sort of territory Alaska was or wasn't prior to or after 1912, thank you. Specific problems are as follows:
Any advice would be helpful. This may take a few minutes to unravel before it can be taken to CFD, so I suppose you can take your time. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 02:15, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Once again, it becomes necessary to ask: what exactly are the so-called maintainers of this list here for if I end up doing the real work for them? That non-free photo of Egan was in this list for eight months without a FUR specific to the list, which I'm quite certain is required. That further begs the question: why should I have to read a robo-message anywhere on this encyclopedia stating "Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously" in big bold letters, when nonsense like this makes it all too obvious that it's nothing but a series of empty words? From what I faintly remember, the Egan article itself is a copyvio, but the page it was lifted from is behind a paywall, so I can't confirm that. The Commons upload interface is burdensome, so you'd better hope I have the patience to finish the rest of those scans/uploads so that you have a free image of Hammond which isn't so hideous. Watching people take shortcuts like that isn't providing me with the proper incentive to want to complete that task, however. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 04:19, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Further evidence that there are Wikipedians who appear more interested in influencing readers when informing them would suffice:
When I originally brought up this issue years ago, I mentioned book sources. There were two separate books published during the 1990s which refer to Hickel as the second and eighth governor in two separate editions apiece. The response I received to that at the time basically amounted to "no URL = no assuming good faith". Okay, it's pretty obvious that someone is really desperate to hang on to their precious little star, fuck credibility and the like. The bottom line is this is an all-too-blatant attempt to forcefully turn shades of gray into black and white, in this case by continuing to cherry-pick a years-old, now-unverifiable primary source, in essence one in which Parnell declares himself to be the 10th governor. Wonderful. I declare myself to be the love child of Carmen Miranda and Charles Nelson Reilly. Now prove otherwise. That's how low the bar has been set here, and evidently all over a piece of WikiBling.
As I point out above, I presented reliable sources years ago and was met with a total lack of good faith, so I'm not terribly interested in continuing this discussion here if it's going to be met with the same stonewalling as before. Maybe WP:FLRC would be a good place to discuss this. I've assumed good faith for too many years by virtue of lack of action, and have only seen this list descend further in the direction of a puffery magnet than anything necessarily credible or reliable. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 19:50, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
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The campaign to use Wikipedia to influence the governor's race and perceptions of Alaska politics in general is getting pretty blatant as of late. Giving readers something live in the article which amounts to an incomplete, skewed explanation and believing that they can just click on the reference to get the full story is inexcusable. NPOV is considered a core policy. I'm not sure that's trumped by one editor's desire to hold on to their little star and to give readers one more thing to click on and excusing that away with "I could care less about anything else". Then I see a note stating that Byron Mallott "represented the Democratic Party". How is that anything other than original research, violating another core policy? Here is a sample ballot from the 2014 general election. There you will find "Democrat" next to someone's name in every race EXCEPT the governor's race. Then there are an abundance of Wayback Machine captures of the Office of the Lieutenant Governor's homepage, all of which contain the statement "Governor Bill Walker and Lt. Governor Byron Mallott took office in December of 2014 as the first non-partisan administration in Alaska history." Here is one such example from roughly a year ago, a time largely outside of any campaign cycle. The process of reporting facts entails there being a factual basis in the first place. You're instead attempting to reflect the media's continued pushing of their carefully-constructed narrative involving "Democrat" and Mallott's name in the same sentence, a statement which substantially relates to the Democrats' vacation of the ticket they nominated in the primary election, which occurred two months before the general election. Whether or not the Democratic Party was "represented" became irrelevant at that point. The Libertarian Party holds two seats on the Alaska Public Offices Commission, not the Democrats. This is saying that we're here to carry the Democrats' water, and so long as you can throw out a URL to a reputable enough website to justify it, it's okay, just like they do in the blogosphere. I don't believe that to fall within the core policies of a neutral encyclopedia. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 04:08, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of Governors of New York which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 14:29, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
We don't need the birth/death dates of the governors in this article. Wish the dynamic IP would stop trying to force them in. GoodDay ( talk) 02:43, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
My reasoning for removing it: The point of a list like this is to say who was in the office, how they entered it, and how they left. Nothing more. All prose and entries serve that goal. Biographical information like that does not add to an understanding of the above. These lists have had everything from simply life span, to birthplace and residence, first lady, profession, etc., and that's just not needed. There are other articles to catalog that kind of information. Now, I assume the reasons for adding will be forthcoming. -- Golbez ( talk) 17:13, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
I see some value in the information if life span is the only biographical information included, but I would definitely oppose the inclusion of other such material. Also, this is not the only list where this information has been added. It was added and later removed in [ Arizona list], but it is in the current version of the following featured governor lists(this does not include any non featured lists with birth/death dates): California, Delaware, Idaho, Utah, Washington, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. Jackattack1597 ( talk) 18:23, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Birth/death dates aren't used at List of presidents of the United States, so let's not have'em in any of the list of governors articles. GoodDay ( talk) 21:33, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Ditto on the blatant disregard for WP:INVOLVED on the part of Golbez. Their long-term behavior also dangerously creeps towards blatant WP:OWN. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 04:00, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
So, it's been long enough that the ANI section has been archived. I'd rather this get resolved so we don't have outstanding complaints about me just sitting around, so can we maybe move forward on something? -- Golbez ( talk) 03:32, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
People think you break a rule and they flood in, have to actually discuss an article and it's crickets. I'm learning a lesson and I don't think it's the one y'all wanted to teach. -- Golbez ( talk) 02:31, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. No real consensus found after almost a month of the discussion being open. Splits are outside of the scope of the RM process and should be discussed in a different section. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Material Works 13:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
List of governors of Alaska → Governor of Alaska – Current article describes the position of the Governor of Alaska and includes lists of governors as subsections. A move to the requested title better fits the contents of the entire article, and corresponds with other U.S. states. ZephyrTurtle14 ( talk) 16:07, 28 September 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request ( permalink). Mdewman6 ( talk) 00:27, 29 September 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. estar8806 ( talk) ★ 00:25, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
I've been working on all these articles, and it's helped me formulate a basic set of rules for who should be included. Like, for territorial governors, it seemed to make sense to keep the main list to those specifically commissioned, i.e. they were confirmed by the Senate or appointed during a recess. That let me prune some acting secretaries that had been elevated to full governors in other articles. Rambling a bit, but I'll reach a point.
So we have the department commanders here. The military officers in charge. Unfortunately, this table has a few issues. First being, it's not well sourced. The only source in this article is a facts almanac, which offers no sourcing of its own. The articles themselves seem to reference only that book, or similar almanac-type publications, or other wikis. I'm not saying this is all made up - I'm saying we need a lot better sourcing than what has been provided so far.
Secondly, it kind of reeks of synthesis. Being the highest ranking official in a territory doesn't make you inherently in charge of it. Maybe if you've been formally commissioned to be in charge, but just existing in the territory, doesn't seem like enough to say conclusively.
Which leads me to the core question: Did anyone consider these as equivalent to a commander back in their own time? If so, then we can find sourcing of that; if not, then we have to seriously decide if this table should even be here, or if it counts as synthesis by giving them greater importance than they actually had. -- Golbez ( talk) 05:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)