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Given his article still credits him with being a happily heterosexually married devout catholic, I find it unlikely such a source will be provided.
Dev920 (Have a nice day!)
I have removed
Neal Horsley from this list as his article states that he is vehemently anti-homosexual. There are no actual cited sources (made mention of, but not cited) of Horsely confirming he is gay or bisexual. Horsely may have admitted to bestiality and/or homosexual acts in his youth, but obviously does not consider himself to be gay or bisexual. Therefore, he should be included in the "Disputed" section, or in the "No longer Identifies..." section if these allegations prove true. Horsely is certainly not a confirmed bisexual or homosexual.
While it may not important to this article, I also believe that his Wiki bio is extremely POV - and that his inclusion on this list is possibly for spurious motivations.
ExRat08:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)reply
That seems right. Horsley would be reasonable for "no longer identifies" I think. But I think editors like adding names of homophobes mostly out of a desire to meet them comeuppance, which may or may not really be encyclopedic.
Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters08:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)reply
Seems as if quite a few of these cites follow some sort of "spurious motivations" - the
John Wayne Gacy inclusion, for example. Gacy never id'd as gay or bisexual - but was a married man who claimed to hate gay people and also claimed [dubiously] to have never had sex with any of his victims. Oddly enough, the Gacy Wiki article, when citing his alleged "bisexuallity" lacks any citation. Contrast this to, say,
Jeffrey Dahmer or
Andrew Cunanan, both who id'd as gay or bisexual. If the list is to include any person who commited a sex crime against another of the same gender, then the list would grow pretty long indeed...
Ashoro04:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)reply
Please resolve this by adding a more definitive reference to her biography. Right now it merely says there are photos of her kissing another woman, which is not clear evidence of orientation. -
Will Beback21:04, 12 January 2006 (UTC)reply
-- Agreed. A photograph of Hilton kissing a woman is certainly not definitive proof of lesbianism or bisexuality. Neither is the photograph of her topless with a former female MTV vee-jay at a beach - ever been to a European beach? I can assure you, that all of those topless women giving each other hugs are not all lesbians. In order to be added to this list an individual must have either openly stated they were gay, lesbian, or bisexual; or, have been determined to have been gay, lesbian, or bisexual by a preponderance of evidence by historians. Hilton has neither stated she was, or been proved to be. Stop purposely adding names merely to be contrary.
ExRat07:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC)reply
James I of England
I corrected this entry to remove the reference to James I as the first King of Great Britian - While he was King of England and Scotland (a united crown) and one could therefore say the de facto first King of Great Britian - the nations were not formally united until Queen Anne's reign, some hundred years later. Franklin Moore 17:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Rules of the page
The printed rules of this page are somewhat unclear. The page reads: "If you wish to add someone to this list please ensure that he or she has a Wikipedia article and that article contains reasonable documentation for inclusion on this list, or alternatively provide external and reputable sources to substantiate their inclusion." This can be read as there are two criteria for inclusion on this page (1) a wiki article which documents the homosexuality of the person OR (2) a cite on this page to such evidence. Alternatively it can be read as requiring (1) a Wiki article in all cases AND either (a) evidence cited in that article or (b) evidence cited on this page. I had interpreted the rule as the second option, an inserted Patria Jimenez, with appropriate citations on this page. I then was adding a wiki article on her, and before it was complete, she was deleted from this list. As the Wiki article has now been added, I reinserted her on this list. It is no big deal, but if the rule requires the first interpretation perhaps it could be made clearer. Franklin Moore 21:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
John Wayne Gacy
I have now inserted American serial killer
John Wayne Gacy back into the article twice. Gacy, was in fact, bisexual and even confirms that he was by his own admission. Also, his Wiki bio confirms this fact. As per rules on this list, he meets the criteria. Also, this has already been discussed before and the general consensus is that he belongs on the list. Stop removing him from this list with no explanation! I will merely revert your edit if you can give no viable reason why you are removing him.
ExRat03:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)reply
As I noted in my comment above, the Wiki bio for Gacy does not "confirm" any admission of bisexuality, as it uses an un-cited statement. Anyone could make up anything on anyone (and often do on Wiki) - which is why citations are a fundamental requirement of good articles. I note someone else has removed Gacy, so I guess a revert war may be on the way. Again, if the only 'criteria' for someone's sexuality is the gender of their crime vicitims [as it appears with Gacy - I have never seen ANYTHING that claims he had a sexual relationship with another male other than his victims] .. then I guess we can prepare for a flurry of additional names linked to
Roman Catholic sex abuse cases - as each of these would also fit in the same criteria as Gacy's inclusion...
163.191.194.23518:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)reply
LOL - looks like it might be a revert war. The Wiki policy states If you wish to add someone to this list please ensure that he or she has a Wikipedia article and that article contains reasonable documentation for inclusion on this list, or alternatively provide external and reputable sources to substantiate their inclusion. The current Wiki entry itself states that
John Wayne Gacy "...claimed to hate gays and "gay-acting people," then further says Gacy stated he was bisexual. This is all without any citation, which the stated Wiki policy says is a requirement for inclusion on this list. If some of you are so enthusiastic to include Gacy here, why doesn't one of you look up an actual CITATION, from a reputable source, where Gacy states he is gay or bisexual? Without that, his inclusion is inconsistent with the way this issue has been decided (at least, for some individuals) and inconsistent with the stated policy. Or [perhaps better] the list needs a category of "heterosexual people who commited gay sex crimes" similar to the "no longer say they are gay" sub-set. At this point, it seems an issue of picking and choosing over various opinions of the definition of "gay" or "bisexual".
Ashoro23:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)reply
Actually, doing the work myself (as the JWG article in Wiki still lacks any citation) most of what I have been able to find (as here:
Serial Killers) quotes Gacy stating he likes boys. This would clearly warrant inclusion in a pedophile killer list. Or course, it might be that some people here are equating pedophila with gay or bisexual orientation. I can't say as I've seen a Wiki policy on that distinction...
Interesting that "both" of you use the same pattern of alternating parenthesis and brackets whilst typing paragraphs. Using puppet accounts to make a point is extremely dishonest. Now, on to Gacy: Firstly, not all of Gacy's victims were underage - several of them were adult married men. In fact, in 1977, one survivor of an attack by Gacy (Jeffrey Rignall) was 26 years old. So, that would exclude him from being merely labelled a pedophile. You may also recall that Gacy's first murder victim in 1972 was a male hustler who was stabbed to death after consensual sex. As far as Gacy allegedly never admitting to bisexuality, you are just wrong: American Psycho by Easton Ellis Vintage Books, 1991 ISBN: 0679735771. Gacy was by his own admission a frequenter of the underground world of male hustlers that existed at the time, largely concentrated in the area of Clark, Diversey and Broadway in Chicago and that he was a regular at Cheeks, Blinkers, and the Broadway Limited. (The Man Who Killed Boys by Clifford L. Lindecker, St Martin's Press, 1986). Now, on to common logic, I would think that anyone who engages in homosexual activity (whether they do so consensually or do so aggressively and with a disdain for themselves and the person they are inflicting a sexual assault on) would logically be determined by most to be gay or bisexual - especially when the person admits (as Gacy also did publicly later to reporters as well as to police officers and to various young men that worked and stayed in his home and to second wife Carole - all of which later confirmed such statements) that he should probably be taken on his word that he is indeed bisexual. Simply because one despises their homosexual tendencies does not make them any less homosexual. I am therefore adding him back to the list.
ExRat04:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)reply
ExRat,
(1) excellent research - this basically answers what I was asking. I had not found anywhere the types of things you cite from the "Psycho" book. If JWG was involved in these type of interactions w/ Chicago's gay community, and clarified his behavior with personal statements, it certainly warrants inclusion on this list.
(2) it would be nice if the citations you quote could be aded to the
John Wayne Gacy Wiki entry - the entry is almost totally un-cited throughout. With your permission, I would add it myself if you have no interest in doing so.
(3) My main concern was the tendency for inclusion in this list appears to , at times, require a high-level of confirmation for 'popular' individuals [such as Tom Cruise, or Kurt Cobain - as you noted in your discssion of him] and a rather lesser level of confirmation appearing to be needed for 'infamous' individuals. I note you have done a lot of policing of the list, so please don't take that as a criticism. It's a big list, and policing it should be a community effort. It is a popular tendency of persons with anti-gay bias to include persons who are 'heterosexually' identified, perhaps married, and with no connection to gay or bisexual behavior other than in the course of committing crimes in 'lists' of 'famous homosexuals.' I'm not accusing you of this bias - but the sparsity of back-up citations for JWG in this article or the JWG wiki seemed suspect to me. Thanks for doing the extra leg-work to clear that up.
As for the similar in postings... who knows? I've had people mention my strange use of parenthesis, dashes, elipses, etc. before (usually in irritation) - but I'm not using a sock-puppet on Wiki.
I have changed the descriptive term of
Jeff Gannon to "American columnist". I think that should be sufficient - he is an American. He is a columnist. Anyone who wishes to find out more about him merely needs to read his Wiki bio. I have noticed a possible edit war starting and think (in my opinion) that all entries simply should list the person's nationality and profession. Gannon is no longer an escort or "prostitute", and the fact that he was an escort is not particularly relevant as a descriptive blurb - he was more noteworthy as a possible "plant" by the Republican party ever than as an escort. What does everyone else think, before this gets out of hand?
ExRat00:45, 6 May 2006 (UTC)reply
I clearly agree that 'prostitute' was inappropriate. I was holding off editing this as I tried to think of an appropriate term. "Columnist' seems as good as any as he is still apparently writing for The Washington Blade. All I would say, is that the difficulty in finding a descriptor, results from the real issue that I wonder if he is truly notable enough to be included in Wikipedia at all. But I am not going to argue that point. I would also note that the bio says he refuses to confirm his homosexuality. Does his past work as an escort mean that he is gay? Is a lesbian who prostitutes herself to a man, heterosexual? Is a gay man who marries a woman, heterosexual? All of this is something to be thought about. Franklin Moore 16:01, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the cite to support the inclusion of Gannon. Although as others are listed as bisexual, I think that the same is appropriate for Mr. Gannon. Franklin Moore 01:14, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd say, that as far as the list is not divided into subcategories of gay/bi/lesbian people, the notion whether the person is gay or bi is unnecessary, and in most cases unbased. For a public figure it is much easier to confirm that he is a bi, than to describe himself as a gay. For historical persons the distinction is based mostly on speculations. Is a person that had for sure male lovers, but was married to a woman necessarily a bisexual? Is a person, that has never been married a gay, a straight or might he just be asexual?
Mag2k03:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)reply
First I am amazed that I am spending so much time on Jeff Gannon. I thought his 15 minutes was almost up. Back to the issue, I would agree with you that there would be no need to distinguish gay from bisexual if that was the general rule on this list. However, unless we wish to change all other "bisexual" references, I think that Wikipedia should be consistent. Others are listed as "bisexual," and therefore the distincton is already bulit in to the list. As I beleive that the only firm evidence of Mr. Gannon's sexuality is his own statement that he is bisexual, that he should be referred to as such. Franklin Moore 04:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I would have to agree that it isn't Wikipedia's place to second-guess people's own self-identification as to whether they're really bisexual or gay-and-only-stepping-halfway-out-of-the-closet. If he says he's bisexual, for Wikipedia to state that he's anything else constitutes
original research. And the lists do already distinguish bisexual people; it's just that the word "bisexual" appears in the post-name description, as was done here, rather than as a whole separate subsection.
Bearcat18:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)reply
It seems if the description "prostitute" is back. I have previously stated that I think that it is inappropriate, as it was not for his skills in that profession that he is noteworthy. However, I have not deleated the reference as I believe that some consensus should be reached. I checked the wiki artcile on prostitution and it does include "escorts" within the broad definition. Therefore it is arguable that he could be listed as a "former escort." However I still believe that a person's profession on this list should relate to why they are notable, leaving other matters to the biography (for example if we list Gannon as a "columnist and a prostitute", should we list Gacy as a "serial killer and a clown"? I personally think not.) Once we begin down that road, this list will not be a list, but rather a series of biographical articles. As oppposed to entering into a revert war, can we answer ExRat's call for some comments here, prior to changes in the article itself. Franklin Moore 02:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I see that the individual intent on the inclsuion of "prostitute" has once again reverted the edit. My question is, how is that relevant? He is NO LONGER an escort, so that is an untruthful statement. That's tantamount to using the descriptive blurb "carnation salesman" for a notable scientist who once worked as a carnatiobn salesman. Jeff Gannon is no longer an escort. It seems that this person is tenaciously clinging to a POV agenda to add the term. Start trying to be more encyclepedic and leave your personal politics elsewhere.
ExRat21:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)reply
You are trying to convince in vain. The guy doesn't read the discussion here and will tomorrow add the "prostitute" once again.
Mag2k22:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)reply
"he died of AIDS" – Many people died of AIDS that were neither gay nor lesbian nor bisexual. Jumping to conclusions is original research. See
Wikipedia:No original research.
I know it destroys the page, but I think everyone who is listed without a citation has to come off the page. I reproduce the names below and they can be returned to the list once they have a citation. This page has got to brought up to the standard of the A-E page or it is a legal nightmare...
Michel Foucault, French scholar, partnered with
Daniel Defert from 1963 till his death, Aldrich, Robert and Wotherspoon, Gary (Eds.) (2001). Also dated
Jean Barraque.
Samantha Fox, British model and one time pop singer.
I'm removing this entry from the list. The references are from
Perez Hilton, a Hollywood gossip columnist. He's hardly a reliable source. While Foster's sexuality has provided speculation for many, I don't believe she's officially come out.
*Exeunt* Ganymead |
Dialogue?15:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)reply
I found her name and a cite on this list. Is she really lesbian or bi? I created an article, but I'm still not sure if that's right. Can anyone help?
72.43.210.10403:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)reply
I know this hardly counts as a source, but I'd still like to uh,
enter it in the record (for what it's worth). —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Moni3 (
talk •
contribs) 12:46, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
Image copyright problem with Image:Derek Jarman portrait.jpg
The image
Image:Derek Jarman portrait.jpg is used in this article under a claim of
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requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an
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That there is a
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Katharine Hepburn also have had quite a few lesbian relationships.
Her relationship with Spencer Tracy is said to be fake for covering up her relationships with women en his bisexual adventures.
I have read many biographies of miss Hepburn, and the relationships that are often mentioned are: Laura Harding, Greta Garbo and Judy Garland.
Her older brother commited suicide when she was still young, and she was the one that found him. They suspect the reason for this suicide was because he was gay. Because of this she never really liked being gay herself.
---
Extract: From 'Kate: The Woman who was Katharine Heburn'
Laura was never "in the closet" because she didn't see the world in those terms. Sitting there at her window overlooking Fifty-fourth Street... she wasn't obfuscating the issue; according to her definition, she was not a lesbian, and neither could her relationship with Hepburn be described that way.
Yet it was sexual. Hepburn admitted as much to friends like James Prideaux, cutting him off with a shrill "Of course!' when asked, saying no more as if the subject were simply too obvious and boring to belabour. Another friend recalled: "She would speak to me of Laura in such a way that I understood. She knew that I'd get her meaning because I was gay myself." George Kukor, who became nearly as close to Laura as he did to Hepburn, also understood the full nature of their relationship. According to Gavin Lambert, Cukor's friend and biographer and widely considered the dean of Hollywood historians, "[Cukor] knew they were lovers. This he told me...when he mentioned Laura Harding, it was clear he was talking about Hepburn's lover, and that meant sexually."
---
She is marked with an "L", what probably means lesbian. However, there is a quote in
her article that she doesn't label herself and she's dated with men also. It is properly quoted (metro.co.uk) and I did not see her stating herself plainly lesbian in the GLAAD interview which is the source here. I'd change the mark to "B".
85.217.39.239 (
talk)
02:06, 1 February 2012 (UTC)reply
This is not a list of people who've acknowledged having experimented sexually; it's a list of people who identify their orientation as being fundamentally L, G or B. Hardy's own statement quite clearly expresses that he doesn't identify that way.
Bearcat (
talk)
23:29, 17 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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