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I realize that one issue with pre-1950 tornadoes in the U.S. is that most of them were rated by Grazulis. Honestly, I would rather not have the same reference repeated hundreds of times. I was thinking, instead of instead citing him at the bottom of each table where we include his material. This would be similar to the format we used for tables on outbreak pages before 2013.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
00:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)reply
If the source is not clear on how many people were killed by each tornado, then we can only say how many people died from the event as a whole. Maybe put a 3 with an asterisk for the first one.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
17:52, 15 May 2022 (UTC)reply
You can also take a look at the entries for March 20, 1875 as an example, since there is at least one instance where it is unclear which of two tornadoes caused some of the deaths.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
19:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Is there a source for an F4 rating for the
1851 Sicily tornadoes? I can only see one of the two sources, which does not seem to say anything about a rating. Both sources are also present at the article for this event, but no rating is mentioned there. I can see that
Elijahandskip added the entry, so where did you get the rating info?
TornadoLGS (
talk)
21:36, 25 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I just doubled checked. I guess that might have been an accidental addition since I swear I saw it on ESWD, but when I just went to double check, ESWD doesn’t even have the tornadoes documented. Weird. I really don’t remember when I saw it (or even if I really did see it) since ESWD nor the two sources in the article have a rating mentioned. I guess we should remove that. Good catch!
Elijahandskip (
talk)
21:52, 25 November 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Elijahandskip: It might have been removed. There was another tornado on Wikipedia (I forget which one) with a reference to ESWD, but I couldn't find it there when I checked the date.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
I’m friends with one of the ESWD documenters, so I can ask them to take a look at the reversion history of that date so we can know if it was removed.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
22:28, 25 November 2022 (UTC)reply
2023 Kingston tornado
What's wrong with adding the 2023 Kingston tornado to the possible EF4 list? I see nothing wrong with it; it had a reference that I checked, and the NWS literally said what was said in the tornado description.
Pinging Elijah and United States Man to make their arguments here.
It wasn't a possible EF4. I don't know what reference you have. The survey makes vague reference to possible higher wind speeds, but it would be 150 vs. 160. Stop wishcasting tornadoes to have higher ratings. Don't make a mockery of this page right off the bat.
United States Man (
talk)
03:19, 1 February 2023 (UTC)reply
It is almost the exact same style of wording which got the Mayfield tornado added to the list of possible F5/EF5s. NWS point blank said, “Based on the damage scene and contextual evidence, it is plausible that winds were stronger. However, with only manufactured homes in the path, there appear to be no damage indicators that will allow a higher rating.”
[1] The 2021 WK tornado’s addition to the F5/EF5 list was, “the tornado damage rating might have been higher had more wind resistant structures been encountered…” They are almost identical in their meaning, so yeah, this should be on the possible F4/EF4 list.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
15:59, 10 February 2023 (UTC)reply
RfC about if the 2023 Kingston tornado qualifies as a possible EF4
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Option 1 — I believe it qualifies for the list. The National Weather Service said the following in the damage survey from the tornado: “Based on the damage scene and contextual evidence, it is plausible that winds were stronger. However, with only manufactured homes in the path, there appear to be no damage indicators that will allow a higher rating.”
[2] Last year,
it was determined a similarly worded statement was a viable reason for the addition of the
2021 Western Kentucky tornado to the list of
list of possible F5/EF5/T10+ tornadoes officially rated F4/EF4/T9 or lower. The statement was, “the tornado damage rating might have been higher had more wind resistant structures been encountered…” Since the ideology is the same between them, aka higher intensity tornado that did not hit a structure worthy of a higher rating, the tornado qualifies for the list.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
17:17, 10 February 2023 (UTC)reply
Option 2 — While I normally look at the logic of previously included tornadoes and the wording used by the official NWS statements and that would seem to imply that the tornado may have been of a higher rating, the wording here includes that the "winds were stronger". In cases like the 2014
Mayflower EF4, or the
Rochelle-
Fairdale EF4 in 2015, in both cases the wording included that a "higher rating" may have been needed had the tornado struck more structurally sound structures upon which to inflict the damage. Both were rated as high-end EF4's. As this tornado was rated at a mid-range EF3, the wording "higher winds" does not necessarily imply that these higher winds would have warranted a higher rating (like, EF3 to EF4) had the tornado struck more solid structures, but rather a re-evaluation of its current rating, like assessing it a high-end EF3, for example. Because of that ambiguity in the descriptions, I lean towards the latter option.
Mjeims (
talk)
17:36, 10 February 2023 (UTC)reply
Just an extra comment: If it was just that statement, I would agree with you. However, the exact next sentence says “However, with only manufactured homes in the path, there appear to be no damage indicators that will allow a higher rating.” NWS mentions that they were held back on the “rating”, not just the possibility of higher winds.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
18:39, 11 February 2023 (UTC)reply
Option 1 Full wording says this: Based on the damage scene and contextual evidence, it is plausible that winds were stronger. However, with only manufactured homes in the path, there appear to be no damage indicators that will allow a higher rating. It doesn't just talk about higher winds, it also says "higher rating" which means it could be a possible EF4. A few people here use the "150 vs 160 mph" argument, but I believe it is false due to the actual wording.
Poodle23 (
talk) 19:51, 11 February 2023 (UTC
Option 2 Find a reliable source that directly speculates that the tornado was an EF4, otherwise its not our job to speculate about what higher rating and higher winds may mean. After all we wouldn't speculate that something was a Category 4 tropical cyclone on wiki, unless we had a reliable source telling us it was a Cat 4.
Jason Rees (
talk)
20:15, 11 February 2023 (UTC)reply
Option 2 – per Jason Rees and Cody, in addition to arguments I’ve made against this before. No source explicitly states this was possibly an EF4, because it wasn’t. Elijahandskip’s wishcasting with these “possible lists” over and over isn’t helping the cause.
United States Man (
talk)
21:56, 11 February 2023 (UTC)reply
As a personal request, I would like you to stop saying I am “wishcasting” as I am not. I am just trying to repair and create lists, with community feedback and consensus, which you yourself said were a “sham”. Please focus on the content rather than the editor.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
22:07, 11 February 2023 (UTC)reply
It appears to me that you are going through every possible online source, looking and looking for the slightest sentence or statement in order to try to add something to these lists. That isn’t useful nor helpful. The fact is that very very few tornadoes actually have concrete written evidence that they could be higher on the scale.
United States Man (
talk)
22:51, 11 February 2023 (UTC)reply
Option 2 (invited by the bot) Even with the extra latitude given by the squishy title ("possible")(which makes my thought not a slam-dunk) I think that the inclusion criteria would be a source that mentions EF4 et al as a possibility rather than an editor deriving it from a source. North8000 (
talk)
20:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)reply
Option 2 I think this is really getting into
WP:SYNTH territory. Especially since the estimated winds of 150 mph are only mid-EF3 and we have the whole 155-165 mph range that could qualify this tornado as "stronger" without bumping it up to EF4.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
20:30, 19 February 2023 (UTC)reply
Option 2 Summoned by bot. The article says we need "photographic analysis and eyewitness accounts", or other "evidence pointing to an F4/EF4 or equivalent rating". I don't see that here.
STEMinfo (
talk)
21:55, 22 February 2023 (UTC)reply
@
STEMinfo: I will note that is for tornadoes prior to 1950, since there is no official ratings for those in the US. There is a similar section on the
List of F5 and EF5 tornadoes, which in all honesty, should be on this article. This article was created last year, with the other one (F5/EF5s) was created many years ago. Not saying you are wrong at all, but the need for “photographic analysis and eyewitness accounts” is more on the line of
WP:OR (not your comment, the section wording that is), so the wording for the section should probably be changed to reflect it’s F5/EF5 counterpart. Food for thought in the future I guess.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
22:10, 22 February 2023 (UTC)reply
It's hard for bot-summoned laymen to understand what's original research or not, but if the wording is misleading, it should be fixed.
STEMinfo (
talk)
22:44, 24 February 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
So a little thought. We have a section for unofficial F4/EF4 tornadoes either rated F3/EF3 or lower or with no official rating. Should we also, in some capacity, include tornadoes with disputed F5/EF5 ratings?
TornadoLGS (
talk)
04:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply