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I found this 1999 DCNR press release
here on design work for new wash house and toilet facilities at the park. Since this is government work, it would likely take several years for the actual construction after this. I will keep looking,
Ruhrfisch><>°°23:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Good finds. I agree that it may have taken a long time getting done. The wheels of government progress can be very slow.
Dincher (
talk)
01:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)reply
FAC to do list
I reread the article and have thought about it in comparison to the PA state park FAs (especially Black Mo and Worlds End) and have a rough list of things to do to get this ready for FAC. Feel free to add new things or strike things that are done.
Expand the lead (one of the last things to do)
Make a Geology section - add / merge the Grand Canyon section there. Here is the PA trail of Geology guide for Leonard Harrison and Colton Point:
[1]
In the History section there should be mention of the Native American trail along Pine Creek and the later railroad, also need much more on the lumber era::Added some general information about the lumber era, need to find specifics about the gorge and area.
Dincher (
talk)
23:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Good - hope it is a
WP:RS. I found this with lots of history from the DCNR's PArk Spotlight
[2] and part two
[3]. Owlett's book has a ton of stuff - I need to read it carefully and take notes. I alos have a book on Native AMerican Paths in PA that has the Pine Creek Path in it.
Ruhrfisch><>°°00:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)reply
I have a photo of the CCC monument (statue of a young CCC worker)
Need to add the whole
National Natural Landmark, State Park Natural Area, and Pine Creek as a state scenic river*If possible expand the Ecology to include animals - I have Owlett's "Seasons Along the Tiadaghton: An Environmental History of the Pine Creek Gorge" which should be a great source for this.
Started on this. Added general info about the deer repopulation, looking for bears, turkeys, etc. "Hunting" for this info on the game commission website.
Dincher (
talk)
02:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)reply
The ecology section is now very similar to the same section at
Worlds End State Park. We need to add parts about the trees. I am having trouble finding reliable sources, but I am pretty sure the trees, etc., pretty much the same at Worlds End. --
Dincher (
talk)
23:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)reply
It looks good, but I wonder if Black Mo wouldn't be a better model, since there is also a state park natural area there? Owlett also has a lot on extinct animals in the Gorge, which could be added here. Owlett and Dillon have some on the forest as well - what has grown back has more hardwoods than what was cut down.
Ruhrfisch><>°°00:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)reply
I think this oculd be made part of a flora or plants section - it is a list of trees after all ;-)
Add that the park is headqurters for the park, Tioga State Forest (NO) and Colton Point too (YES)
Add some about Nessmuk and his writings about the gorge and the Historical Marker for him in the park, see
[4]
Perhaps add some of the other private nearby attractions in one sentence - right near the entrance there are a small zoo (
Animaland) and a look out tower on the road into the park (
[5] probably not a
WP:RS though)
Are we going to call it the Pine Creek Gorge or the Pennsylvania Grand Canyon? I prefer Pine Creek Gorge, but I think Pennsylvania Grand Canyon is more commonly used.
Dincher (
talk)
23:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Since the official name of the National Natural Landmark is "Pine Creek Gorge"
[6] I owuld use that. Grand Canyon is a 1936 publicity invention - in Owlett and the new Park Spotlight DCNR links above.
Ruhrfisch><>°°00:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)reply
The DCNR web page for the park says Ansonia means large meadows in an unspecified Native American language. Owlett's book mentions the large meadows there, however it says that the village is named for
Anson Greene Phelps, one of the founders of
Phelps Dodge. Donehoo's book on Indian Place Names and the Susquehanna River Basin Commission names page do not list Ansonia as a Native word (or at all). I am inclined not to mention the source of the name in this article, since it is not clear. Is this OK?
I also drove past the Tioga State Forest headquarters - it is not in the park after all (my mistake) but off of PA 287 south of Wellsboro near Nessmuk Lake.
Ruhrfisch><>°°21:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Ansonia really doesn't sound like an Indian word, does it? Sounds like it was named for somebody named Anson. I think Owlett would be a better source on this matter. He would be more inclined to seek out the truth than to just make a quick and dirty decision. --
Dincher (
talk)
23:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Map
Here is the draft base map - I will add labels, but does this look OK? Same color scheme as Black Mo and Worlds End maps. The rail trail is dark green along Pine Creek. Should I add other trails? Ivory is state park, green is Tioga State Forest, and brown is private property.
Ruhrfisch><>°°00:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Thanks, I was afraid you'd say that ;-) I will add them, but it may take me a day or two. The final map will probablky be cropped some - less of the land around the parks, which will also make the parks look larger in the same size map.
Ruhrfisch><>°°01:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)reply
The new map looks good. I don't know if we need to change the Worlds End Map or not. I think you said it looked to crowded with trails on it.
Dincher (
talk)
22:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Here's the labeled and cropped map - I was bold and added it to both parks. Worlds End has one trail (Loyalsock) shown - I think the orange shows up better than dark green. I left parking off - not much room to show it and it is less important than other stuff. Does it seem OK?
Ruhrfisch><>°°13:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Tiadaghton question
The article says Harrison did not use a railroad or rafts, using a log slide instead. I think the slide was just to get the logs down to the creek, then they floated down to the sawmill at Tiadaghton. The location of Tiadaghton can be seen on this DCNR Tioga State Forest
map and is too far for just a slide. I also reread the sources cited and do not see where rafts are excluded, but I may have missed something.
Ruhrfisch><>°°21:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)reply
What would you think of two side by side images of Nessmuk and Leonard Harrison for that section (instead of the current PHMC marker photo)? There is a picture of Nessmuk already on Commons at
Image:George Washington Sears.jpg and the DCNR has a photo of Harrison that could be Fair Use (although it looks like it is older than 1923 and thus is probably free). Geology and Climate section is done.
Ruhrfisch><>°°04:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)reply
The ref looks pretty rough. Misspellings and misnamings. I don't think that it'll slide through. But having a date for the statue might not be all that important either.
Dincher (
talk)
22:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)reply
I think it is OK for Peer Review (hopefully in a few days we can take it there) and I can look at old newspapers before going to FAC. I got all the New York Times refs in.
Ruhrfisch><>°°00:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Lumber Era photos
For Colton Point there are two great photos in Owlett that could be used for the Lumber Era section - one is a Shay locomotive at the point, with a nearly bare Pine Creek Gorge behind it (first choice - here is a badly scanned
version), the other is a lumber train on a trestle over Four Mile Run - both were taken in what is now the park.
Owlett has several photos that would perhaps work for Leonard Harrison - the best is a wasteland of stumps with a tiny person. I also found this
[9] and this is from Asaph of a mill
[10]. I will keep looking,
Ruhrfisch><>°°19:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)reply
OK, I have a stat on visitors for sight seeing that I thought could be added there, plus a quote on the eastern Grand Canyon being prettier than the western one, especially in Fall. Plus there is the fall picture at top now.
Ruhrfisch><>°°22:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)reply
The other thought I had was just to move this up into the tree section of Ecology (no longer its own section). I have to find and reread the quote and stats
Ruhrfisch><>°°22:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)reply
I think it is ready for PR. There is still a red link, I need to find the newspaper account of the statue dedication, the dates need to be delinked in a few places, the hyphens and daqshes need to be fixed (there isa script for this). I am also sure it is overlinked in a few places and the names of species need to be capitalized, but I think the text and photos and map and refs are otherwise all ready for PR. Is that OK with you?
Ruhrfisch><>°°18:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Re: "The Pine Creek Gorge, including Leonard Harrison and Colton Point State Parks and a 12 miles (19 km) section of Tioga State Forest, was named a National Natural Landmark (NNL) in April 1968." The convert template {{convert|12|mi}} is generating the unit miles as a plural. Here, "a 12 miles section" is grammatically incorrect and should be "a 12 mile section". --
Michael Devore (
talk)
00:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Thanks for pointing this out. Could you help me find just exactly where in the article it is? I've looked five times without much luck. I am sure it's there, but where? Which section and which paragraph?
Dincher (
talk)
01:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Well, it's in the sentence I quoted. The paragraph starts with "A 1966 New York Times article...", the subsection title is "Modern Era", the main section is "History". --
Michael Devore (
talk)
01:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Thanks as always Michael, I just fixed it - there is an "adj=on" parameter that can be added to make it "a 12-mile" section. Now to look at the FAC...
Ruhrfisch><>°°01:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Image botheration
Not sure why this is happening, but the panoramic view of the Pine Creek Gorge is showing up in my browser as a only link to the image, rather than an embedded image, unless I cut its 1500px size in the {{wide image}} template down to 1400px or raise it up to 1600px. In fact, anything I try other than 1500px works in preview, including 1501px and 1499px. Weirdness abounds. Is there a size restriction or browser blip somewhere? --
Michael Devore (
talk)
04:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Not sure that's optimal. If I'm the only one who gets it, maybe it's a Wikipedia burp that a later cache clear will fix. Or maybe another reader would begin to see the problem at 1501px. There is too little information on the cause to justify changing to a +1 pixel count arbitrarily. Oops, saw you just did and I can see the picture fine. Hope that fixes everything, does for me anyway. --
Michael Devore (
talk)
05:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)reply
It's different in that I have to use the scroll bar to see all of it, unlike the previous version where the picture scaled to the browser window. But I like it better this way, since it's a nicer view. Of course, we can't know if someone will now gripe about the scrollbar. It's hard to make everybody happy all the time. --
Michael Devore (
talk)
02:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)reply
FA remaining issues - lead sentence awkward
I was pleasantly surprised that this was promoted to FA earlier today. There are three five remaining issues from the FAC and PR:
Image of Leonard Harrison may be free - once I hear back from the state park, I will post it here and on the image page.
I had the same difficulty with the Pelamis wave machine. Everyone was very helpful on the phone or in person, but no-one would reply in writing. The rationale on the image page makes sense to me - he would appear to be a man no older than his mid-fifties.
BenMacDui07:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Leonard Harrison State Park is a 585-acre (237 ha)
Pennsylvania state park in
Shippen and
Delmar Townships,
Tioga County,
Pennsylvania in the
United States. It is on the east rim of the
Pine Creek Gorge, also known as the Grand Canyon of Pennsylvania, which is 800 feet (244 m) deep and nearly 4,000 feet (1,219 m) across here. It also serves as headquarters for the adjoining
Colton Point State Park, its sister park on the west rim of the gorge. Leonard Harrison State Park is known for its views of the Pine Creek Gorge, but also offers hiking, fishing and hunting, whitewater boating, and camping. It is 10 miles (16 km) west of
Wellsboro at the western terminus of
Pennsylvania Route 660.
Suggested revised lead
Leonard Harrison State Park is a 585-acre (237 ha)
Pennsylvania state park in
Tioga County,
Pennsylvania in the
United States. It is on the east rim of the
Pine Creek Gorge, also known as the Grand Canyon of Pennsylvania, which is 800 feet (244 m) deep and nearly 4,000 feet (1,219 m) across here. It also serves as headquarters for the adjoining
Colton Point State Park, its sister park on the west rim of the gorge. Leonard Harrison State Park is known for its views of the Pine Creek Gorge, but also offers hiking, fishing and hunting, whitewater boating, and camping. The park is in
Shippen and
Delmar Townships, 10 miles (16 km) west of
Wellsboro at the western terminus of
Pennsylvania Route 660.
Suggested addition to "Nearby parks" sction
The location is not in the areticle, only the lead, so I suggest we add the location to the article, specifically to the "Nearby parks" section, as follows:
Leonard Harrison State Park is mostly in
Shippen Township, with a small portion in
Delmar Township north of Stowell Run. It is 10 miles (16 km) west of Wellsboro at the western terminus of
Pennsylvania Route 660. The following state parks are within 30 miles (48 km) of the pa
The suggested revision looks better to me. I also wonder if "LHSP is known for its views of the Pine Creek Gorge, and also offers hiking..." might be better. Its not as if fine views normally preclude the other activities.
BenMacDui16:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Is the spelling of Chesepeake Bay in the reference a quote or paraphrase of an old document? It is inconsistent with the article's earlier and more common spelling of Chesapeake Bay, but I see from Google that some old documents use the 'e'-based spelling, plus the reference is for the year 1608, so there may be a reason to use it. --
Michael Devore (
talk)
18:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Looks good. I added a comma and removed a period. Two other minor thoughts:
I suggest reverting the en-dashed date range in "The Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) improved access and constructed many of the amenities at Leonard Harrison park from 1933–1936, during the Great Depression." I think this got changed at FAC. The MoS addresses this at
WP:MOSDASH. It says, " ...also the case when the nearby wording demands it, e.g., he served from 1939 to 1941 and not he served from 1939–1941, in which from and to are complementary and should both be spelled out." I see this kind of en-dash fairly often in articles and change it.
A word that I often change when I see it in certain contexts is "over" as in "Over 300,000 tourists visited the canyon". I see "over" used in this way in many articles. I don't know if the MoS has an opinion about this, but The Associated Press Style Manual says: the word "generally refers to spatial relationships: The plane flew over the city. Over can, at times, be used with numbers: She is over 30. I paid over $200 for this suit. But more than may be better: Their salaries went up more than $20 a week. Let your ear be your guide."
Finetooth (
talk)
21:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)reply
I removed the image gallery fro mthe article and moved the best picture up into the article. Galleries are generally discouraged in articles, especially FAs and they were already pictures of the park office, park sign, and fog in the gorge in the park's category at Commons. I also need to check, but I think the new CCC worker statue needs a fair use rationale like the old one had (since the statue is a copyrighted work of art).
Ruhrfisch><>°°18:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Preferred CCC worker statue
Since the CCC worker staue is a copyrighted work of art, we can only have one photo of it on Wikipedia per
WP:NFCC (the one used in the article). The new photo (lit by setting sun) is on the left and is now in the article. The old photo is on right. Which do people prefer? SInce I took one of the photos, I will recuse myself from voting.
Ruhrfisch><>°°18:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Ruhrfisch, sorry, by swapping pictures, I didn't mean any personal offense. I normally don't take pictures worth uploading into Wikipedia and was excited (maybe too much) to have found a few. Thanks for taking care of the copyright issue and deletion of your photo.
Mrmcdonnell (
talk)
23:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)reply
No offense taken at all - I am always glad to make articles better and the photos you added do just that - thanks again. Normally I upload photos to Commons, but because the staue is a copyrighted work of art an image of it cannot be on Commons and has to be fair use here. A bot would have tagged the other statue photo for deletion in a few days since it was orphaned, so I just went ahead and deleted it. Thanks again,
Ruhrfisch><>°°02:05, 27 December 2008 (UTC)reply
If you do not have an account at commons.wikimedia.org, you can make one with the same username and just upload them there. I think there is a bot that transfers free images to Commons too, but not sure how often it works,
Ruhrfisch><>°°04:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
NRHP status
CCC-built incinerator
CCC-built cabin
Sign in park saying it was built by the CCC
I bet the pillars at left are CCC-built
An editor removed NRHP category from article, with edit summary pointing out no mention of NRHP or NRHP's NHL program, and correctly noted that the NNL program is different. This talk page
was tagged with Wikiproject NRHP early on, in 2007. Are there CCC structures in the park, or does it include anything else that is NRHP-listed? If not, the category dropping was correct and the WikiProject NRHP banner might as well be removed from this Talk page, too. Great article, by the way. Thanks! --
doncram (
talk)
14:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Thanks to Nyttend for catching the cat and to Doncram for ctaching the WikiProject. I do not have any sources that say it is NRHP listed and just checked to confirm that the park is not listed on the Pennsylvania CRGIS site as being on the NRHP. Since it is not on the NRHP, I have removed the NRHP tag above. There are a few CCC-built structures remaining in the park - see the gallery above.
Colton Point State Park across the gorge is a NRHP-listed Historic District as its CCC-built structures are much better preserved.
Ruhrfisch><>°°15:44, 19 October 2010 (UTC)reply
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