![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on August 11, 2013, August 11, 2015, August 11, 2017, August 11, 2020, and August 11, 2023. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There is a very interesting discussion on pl wiki; please note that the recent consensus is that there was only 1 person killed and 5 wounded.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Based on the same heading under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pogrom
"A pogrom is generally a riot that is encouraged by authorities or at which authorities do nothing to stop the violence, police stand about idly or assist the rioters. That is why Kishinev and Krystallnacht are classic pogroms. In other cases it is less clear. Here is a reasonable definition: http://isurvived.org/2Postings/Pogrom-defined.html The word comes to English from Yiddish and probably should be confined to organized riots against Jews."
Currently there is no indication in the article of this event being organized, or authorities-sponsored. Moreover, the fact that, again, according to the article, there were charges pressed makes it peculiar to assume that this was government-organized event. I would consider the participation of policemen and soldiers in that respect as acts of individuals rather than implying involvement of authorities, therefore negating the term's definition.
Also, even taking under consideration the possibility of five deaths altogether, this seems a very small casualty number for such a loaded term as pogrom, and the violence level it implies.
I would appreciate an experienced editor (I am not) to consider the above logic.
I'll quote: rv - Onet, a web portal, is hardly as reliable as historians cited, and besides its only a review of Chchopek book. Article in Onet is written by historian Ph.D. Marcin Zaremba and is not only a review of Cichopek books as you say, but is based on author's own research of archives as well. Other source deleted by you, is an article on Polish-Jewish relations during that period, by different historian. So your reverts clearly are under false pretences. M0RD00R 06:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
In light of all relevant articles in Wikipedia re. post war history of Polish-Jewish relations including pogroms, the inflated number of possible casualties lacking credible source is nothing more than anti-Polish hate mongering. I removed the relevant line from the article. Properly quoted numbers can be inserted again. -- Poeticbent talk 21:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
To the best of my knowledge, Cichopek mistankenly took a photo from a random funeral and insisted that it was the one. After reading dr. Libionka explanations I stick to his guns. Cichopek was wrong saying about five victims ->! [2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Litwa ( talk • contribs) 03:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
What was the theme of Cichopek's Master Thesis, when was it published as a book, has nothing to do with this article. It's not about her. And it is not the Master Thesis, nor the book that is cited here. One opinion of Lebionka is cited, another is deleted. Why is that? Clearly some editors have set themselves a goal to disrupt this article by all means. And I feel pity for them. No more, no less. M0RD00R 14:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This does not explain why instead of neutral Polish historian Anna Cichopek you are pushing Anna Cichopek, a graduate student from Jagiellonian University, stated in her Master Thesis (later published as a book). She' not a graduate any more she's Dr. Anna Cichopek. And I'm not citing her Master Thesis look at reference number 6 - so this has nothing to do with the subject of this article. Is that really so hard to understand? If you want to write about Anna's Master Thesis write in Anna Cichopek. And then is this. You put Libionka's criticism of Anna's book in, but delete his opinion that her books is of exceptional value, because as you say this article is not about Anna's book. You can't get any more tendentious than this. M0RD00R 16:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
If you want to introduce Anna Cichopek "Polish historian" is the best, the shortest, the most neutral way. What was her Master Thesis, in what University has no place here. And there were no general discussion in Casualties section until you started to push irrelevant facts from Anna's bio. And manipulation with Libionka's review is still not addressed by you M0RD00R 17:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
She's a Polish, she's a historian. If you do not like Polish historian, we can leave just a historian. Or historian that got her doctors degree at Michigan Uni. Ant why did you delete Nowy Targ murders with strange edit summary (style)? Please discuss changes beforehand, what this has to do with style, could you elaborate. And my questions regarding Libionka still not answered M0RD00R 17:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
So you've inserted all negative opinions about Cichopek, can I insert positives ones and hope that will not be reverted on instance as last time? M0RD00R 18:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, isn't this a contradiction? "Anna Cichopek... stated in her Master Thesis.... that all historical sources confirm only one death.... However, based on an archival photo with five coffins taken during the funeral, she ? suggested that there had been five fatalities...." should there be a later where I've put the ? question mark? Also, you might want to expand what IPN is for those who don't know. :) SGGH 18:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
BTW can Wikipedia talk page be used as a source in Wikipedia? I don't think so. If not this source must go [1] M0RD00R 19:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
No, wikipedia content cannot be used as citable references in other articles. An exception to this is of course, wikilinking an unfamiliar or complex term whose explanation isn't necessary or germane to the article. Other wiki articles' sources can of course be explored, and the sources they cited can also be utilized. Arcayne 19:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Let's go next Anna Cichopek stated in her Master Thesis (later published as a book and quoted in her article). Her Master Thesis is not cited here (I even don't know if that's correct, because this fact is not referenced). Why it should be mentioned here? M0RD00R 20:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
References
I just got here after the request was made. Give me a bit to read the article and the edits histories. If people want to weigh in on what they feel are the major points of contention, please feel free to do so here, but be to the point, and be polite. Working in Wikipedia is supposed to be fun; we aren't getting paid for this, so let's all assume WP:BELLY, and take a moment to decompress. I'll post shortly. :) Arcayne 18:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
If I am mistaking any of the facts here, please let me know right away, as my conclusions are based upon the article, the Discussion and the edit histories. I am not either for or against the article's points - that is why it is called a Third Opinion. :)
The main points of contention here appear to surround the inclusion (and
provenance) of the statements provided in the book pulbished by Anna Cichopek. The prior (and apparently official) reckoning was that the deaths from anti-Semitic activity were one, whereas Cichopek has been cited as stating in her book there were up to five such deaths.
The apparent underlying reason for this contention is that if there was only one death, it doesn't in and of itself constitute the
definition of a
pogrom, per se. A pogrom requires the massacre and organized persecution of an ethnic group (usually the Jews, as the term was coined druing the Russian pogroms of the 19th century). The murder of a single Jew doesn't constitute a pogrom, while the murder of two or more technically does. As there might be strong feelings (and likely political fallout) about having any town pointed out as being the site of a pogrom, it is clear that most official accounts would downplay the numbers (and significance) of actual racially motivated incidents. Therefore, the need for cited instances becomes paramount.
While there may very well be evidence of the aforementioned 'organized persecution', more cited instances of this need to be added to the article.
As well, a paragraph citing additional instances has been the subject of a revert war - one side including it because they feel it is notable, while the other side removing it because they feel it isn't noteworthy. I tend to agree with the latter, but conditionally so. The paragraph, as presented, doesn't cite its references, and that is vital to inclusion in any article in Wikipedia, and ever more so in this type of article.
That said, here are my recommendations, in order of their immediate importance:
- Arcayne 20:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
First note: The definition of pogrom does not require more than one fatality. An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews. Besides the term Krakow pogrom regarding events in question is used in multiple academic sources, which will be provided. M0RD00R 20:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Second note: the statements of a grad student thesis, or the resulting book thereof, do not carry the same gravitas of noteworthines Her grad thesis is not cited here. The fact that she had written on this subject in her grad thesis and in her book, does not mean that her grad thesis and that book is the same study. If so that should be proven. M0RD00R 20:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Cichopek is not listed in the database of the Polish scientists -> [3]
Do we have the right to call her Polish historian?
The latest record (Wednesday, January 10 06:47:22 2007) of Anna Cichopek I have found at the Michigan University describe her as "GRAD STU INSTR, LSA History GRADER I (TEMP), LSA II: Russian & E. Euro. St Student, Rackham" and "History PhD - Student, Rackham - Student" -> [7].
Her name is listed with a remark "doctoral candidate" among "RECIPIENTS OF YIVO FACULTY AND GRADUATE STUDENT FELLOWSHIPS, 2006-07 [8].
Do we have the right to call her "Dr. Anna Cichopek"? Mynek 21:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Since there seems to be some concern as to her current title and position, it should be verified, the most recent record would be on point. She might not show up in a database, as it would appear that she hasn't been a lecturer long enough for the data to have been entered. Arcayne 21:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the main reason why Cichopek is actively contested here lies in the fact that - regardless of her academic standing - what she says doesn’t add up. First, there was the misread and misrepresented photograph attributed by her to Kraków pogrom. It’s a serious mistake for a budding historian, that’s why it is important to mention her background in my opinion, especially that that was followed by other mistakes mentioned by Darisz Libionka in his review of her work [10] (which I have read in Polish). And than there’s the number of casualties attributed to Cichopek by User:M0RD00R. In his edit supported by just one and the same source User:M0RD00R changed the numbers from 300-1000 [11] to “more than 1000” [12]. A puzzling move considering lack of additional references in support of statements made by Cichopek. Lack of additional sources forced me to search out and add the name of a Jewish historian Stefan Grajek in order to bring back the balance. Personally I’d prefer that Cichopek university Master Thesis be listed for the record considering that the mistakes atributed to her subsequent book were mentioned by her reviewers. -- Poeticbent talk 23:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I’m afraid you might have misunderstood my intentions. I’m not “contesting” Cichopek’s “conclusions” because other editors do it better than I do. I’m merely pointing everybody’s attention to the fact that she wasn’t a professional when she wrote it and didn’t have to meet the standards expected of other professionals. — Just imagine, if you were an outside observer reading an article on an important historical fact, which I am, wouldn’t you want to know that the source of information is a graduate student of history rather than the venerable doctor of history from the later years? Are you implying that revealing such fact means to “tantrumize the issue and attack Cichopek”? I don't think so. I agree with you on one thing though: “it is for us to report both sides of the issue and present the results.” I hope that is our mutual goal. -- Poeticbent talk 04:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think her background is being screened so acutely (and a bit overmuch, to my reckoning) is that her work is being cited repeatedly within the article. I think that, in order to relieve the scrutiny would be to cite other accounts of the Kraków pogrom, and not just her theory. I think it fairly important to do so. Arcayne 06:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Notes section be titled References? KosherJava 16:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
for instance:
notes
1. bloggs p 33
2. bloggs p 39
3. smith p 92
references
Bloggs, Joe, Journey to the Centre of the Earth
Smith, Peter, Office Space
A references section should be set up for this article, I'll go and take care of it. SGGH 20:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
This is the first time I've heard of a pogrom with one fatality. According to Merriam-Webster, a pogrom is an "organized massacre". Appleseed ( Talk) 00:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The debate of whether it is classed as a pogrom is a key point of the article, maybe it should be emphasised more, however that would probably increase friction around the Anna C. sources, seeing as she seems to be a key proposer of the multiple deaths idea, whereas (according to the article) most sources cite only one death (which would make it an anti-semitically motivated murder? rather than a pogrom. Just like the murder of one racial minority member doesn't make an ethnic cleanse...) A difficult one. SGGH 08:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
a form of riot directed against a particular group, whether ethnic, religious or other, and characterized by destruction of their homes, businesses and religious centers. Usually pogroms are accompanied with physical violence against the targeted people and even murder or massacre.
SGGH 08:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, if that is going to be the case, let's AGF on M0rd00r, and allow the topic a bit of a rest until Sunday. If they don't show up on Sunday by say, 6pm GMT (Warsaw is GMT+1), then we carry on. Sound like a fair compromise? Arcayne 11:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
And one last quick question - should I also present positive reviews of Anna's book (which itself is cited in this article only once), because all negative ones are already included? M0RD00R 21:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Just want to say that it is almost incredulous that some editors are trying to down play these events by arguing over a definition. A mob, (at times over a thousand people), setting fire to a synagogue, beating and robbing people because they are Jews (re-attacking hospitalized ones), etc., is definitely a pogrom, even if no one had died. Unfortunately that was not the case, and Roza Berger survived the holocaust only to be killed in this pogrom. Dr. Dan 14:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, discussion over the definition of the pogrom is redundant because overwhelming majority of the academic sources (Polish and international) use this term regarding the events in Krakow. M0RD00R 19:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
A quick search at Google books shows the following references using the term pogrom:
This is not the complete list.
"11 sierpnia br. w Krakowie miały miejsce wypadki pogromu wobec żydowskiej ludności miasta. Okoliczności wypadków są następujące:
Rankiem 11 sierpnia (1945 r. - aut.) w synagodze przy ul. Sudźbowej (Szerokiej?), gdzie modlili się Żydzi, nieznane wyrostki zaczęły rzucać kamieniami w okna. Stróż synagogi zatrzymał jednego chuligana, który zaczai krzyczeć, że go bija. Na krzyk ściągnął tłum z pobliskiego bażant i zaczął bić Żydów. W tym czasie nieznana osoba zaczęła rozpowszechniać prowokacyjne pogłoski o tym, że Żydzi w tej synagodze zabili polskie dzieci i że krew polskich dzieci Żydzi oddają Armii Czerwonej. Po tym, jak pojedynczy milicjanci i nieznane osoby w polskich mundurach zatrzymywały Żydów, winnych jakoby zabójstwa polskich dzieci, pogrom się nasilił. W rejonie ulicy Miodowej zebrał się tłum liczący tysiąc osób. W pogromie wzięła udział milicja, miedzy innymi pracownicy 2 komisariatu miasta Krakowa, którzy wraz z kilkoma żołnierzami Wojska Polskiego oraz osobami z ochrony kolei i członkami polskiej młodzieżowej organizacji sportowej, zatrzymywali żydów, okradali i ich bili (...)
W czasie napadu żołnierze Wojska Polskiego oddali kilka prowokacyjnych strzałów, w związku z czym rozeszły się pogłoski, że strzelanina prowadzą Żydzi. Podczas starcie z uczestnikami pogromu został pobity i ciężko ranny zastępca naczelnika milicji wojewódzkiej por. Ałtański. Przejawy pogromu zostały przerwane tego samego dnia 11 sierpnia przez wprowadzenie w rejon zamieszek oddziałów polskimi, w tym pułku polskich wojsk wewnętrznych, Nasze wojska udziału nie brały.
W wyniku śledztwa, w mieście zatrzymano 145 osób, wśród nich 40 milicjantów, 6 osób z Wojska Polskiego i 99 osób cywilnych. Zatrzymany wyrostek Kijaczki (siei) Anatol, lat trzynaście, zeznał: „U sierpnia jeden Polak dal mi jakieś zawiniątko i powiedział, żebym rzucił w synagogę i dał mi 20 złotych. Kiedy podszedłem do synagogi, był tam tłum ludzi. W tym czasie podszedł do mnie milicjant, powiedział żebym uciekał i krzyczał, że Żydzi chcą mnie zabić, co też zrobiłem. Rzuciłem zawiniątko w synagogę, a co w nim było, nie wiem."
Inny zatrzymany Polak Bades oświadczył: „Bilem Żydów i rabowałem, grozilem rewolwerem, który dal mi jakiś milicjant".
Zatrzymany Kucharski zaznał: „Razem z milicjantami wdarłem się do mieszkania Żyda Opfelbauma i ograbiłem tego ostatniego" (...)
Pod koniec dnia 11 sierpnia (a więc tego samego dniał - aut.) pojawiły się specjalnie wydane ulotki, w których podsycano przejawy antysemityzmu i twierdzono, że Żydzi zabijają polskie dzieci (...) Według informacji, jakie otrzymało Ministerstwo Bezpieczeństwa Publicznego, tego dnia miała wydać ulotki nielegalna partia „Stronnictwo Narodowe",
Jednocześnie próby pogromu miały miejsce w powiatach miechowskim, tarnowskim i nowotarskim, województwo krakowskie. W Miechowie znaleziono napisy wzywające do zabijania Żydów. W Rozwitinowie (sic!) odnotowano wśród mieszkańców okrzyki wzywające do zabijania Żydów. W Rabce w żydowski dom rzucono granat, ofiar nie ma. Śledztwo w toku,
(...) Śledztwo stwierdza, że pogrom był zawczasu przygotowany i prowokatorzy zawczasu wysiali chłopców, którzy zaczęli rzucać kamieniami w okna synagogi, a potem uciekli z okrzykami „mordują!". Kiedy przed synagoga zebrał się tłum, do synagogi wdarło się trzech Polaków w mundurach wojskowych, zatrzymali czterech Żydów i odstawili ich do l komisariatu milicji, dyżurnemu milicjantowi Szewczykowi. Polacy przedstawili się jako żołnierze Krakowskiego Okręgu Wojskowego i podali personalia: Wasilewski Jan, Perek Tadeusz i Gacek Roman. Oświadczyli przy tym, jakoby przyprowadzeni przez nich czterej Żydzi mordowali polskie dzieci w synagodze. Milicjant Szewczyk sporządził meldunek na podstawie słów Wasilewskiego, Perka i Gacka i bez sprawdzania puścił ich wolno, a zatrzymanych Żydów zaaresztował. Następnie wielu milicjantom zaczęło bić i aresztować Żydów. W ten sposób milicja swoim działaniem potwierdziła prowokacyjne pogłoski, co wzmocniło działania pogromowe tłumu. Spośród zatrzymanych ustalono winę i pociągnięto do odpowiedzialności 14 milicjantów, 6 żołnierzy Wojska Polskiego i 70 osób cywilnych, przeciwko których prowadzone jest śledztwo. Wymienieni Wasilezuski, Perek i Gacek nic figurują w ewidencji krakowskiego garnizonu i jak dotąd ich nie ustalono.
(...) 15 sierpnia został aresztowany pracownik miejscowej poczty Bobrowski Albin, nr. w 1883 roku, u którego skonfiskowano drukowana iilotkp dotycząca pogromu. Bobrowski odmawia wszelkich zeznań. W ulotce tej, podpisanej przez Związek Obrony Wolności i Demokracji, mówi się między innymi:
„Kraków - ośrodek i kwiat kultury polskiej został w sobotę 11 sierpnia zhańbiony podłym, barbarzyńskim wystąpieniem przeciw Żydom. Sobotni incydent przeciw Żydom jest dziełem prowokatorów. Proluokatorzy zrobili to po to, żeby pokazać światu iż wojska sowieckie i NKWD wciąż są potrzebne w Polsce dla utrzymania porządku i ochrony bezpieczeństwa Żydów. Prowokatorzy wywołali ten incydent w dniu, kiedy w Krakowie przebywali przedstawiciele Anglii i Ameryki - to im chcieli pokazać ten pogrom.
Uchwała z Poczdamu, zv której powiedziano, że w Polsce mają rządzić sami Polacy, musi być wykonana. Nikt nie wierzy w tę źle zmontowaną prowokację i nikt nie zgadza się z tym, że Polsce potrzebna jest pomoc wojska i NKWD w celu obrony Żydów.
Żydom w naszym mieście nic nie grozi, chroniliśmy ich w czasie okupacji hitlerowskiej i nadal mogą żyć spokojnie bez obaw."
I will be short. I hope there will be no objections that information from The Stalin file will be incorporated into this article. This text is taken from here
[18] and cites Russian Association „Memorial" publication „Karty" (nr 15/1995).
Due to lack of time I can not translate this text to English, so I hope other active participants of this discussion will be willing to help. Thanks.
P.S. The answer to question that the heck "The Stalin file" is can be easily found on Google
P.P.S. Maybe someone has access to original Memorial publication? Your assistance will be very appreciated. -- The preceding unsigned comment was added by M0RD00R 21:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
On the morning of the 11th of August, some unknown teenagers started to throw stones at the windows of the Synagogue on Sudźbowa (Szeroka) street, where the Jews were praying. The keeper of the synagogue restrained one hooligan, who started to shout, that he's being beaten. The shouts attracted a crowd from the nearby market, who started to beat up Jews. In the mean time an unknown person started to spread the rumour, that the Jews in that synagogue had murdered Polish children and gave their blood to the Red Army. Then some milicjamen and unknown persons dressed in Polish uniforms started to detain Jews, supposedly guilty of murdering Polish children, and the pogrom grew in strength. In the area near Miodowa street a crowd of 1000 gathered. Milicja took part in the pogrom, among them employees of 2nd Commissariat of Kraków, who together with few soldiers of Polish Army, and railway guards, and members of Polish Sports Organization, detained, robbed, and beat-up Jews (...)
During the assault, soldiers of Polish Army fired some provocative shots, which started the rumour that the Jews were firing shots. During the fight with participants of the pogrom, the Deputy Chief of the voivodeship Milicja Ałtański was heavily wounded. The Pogrom was stopped the same day on 11th of August when Polish troops including the regiment of the Internal troops entered the riot area. Our troops didn't participate.
As a result of the inquiry, 145 persons were arrested, including 40 milicjamen, 6 soldiers of Polish Army and 99 civilians. Detained teenager Anatol Kijaczki (13 yaers old) testified: "In August one Pole gave me a packet, and told me throw it at the synagogue, and gave me 20 złoty. When I walked to the synagogue, the crowd was already there. Then milicjaman came up to me and told me to run screaming that the Jews want to kill me, and so I did. I had thrown the packet, what was inside of it, I don't know"
Another detainee Pole Bades testified: "I've beaten-up, robbed and intimidated Jews using a revolver, which was given to me by some milicjaman.
Detainee Kucharski testified: "Together with milicjamen I broke into the apartment of the Jew Opfelbaum and robbed him" (...)
In the evening flyers inciting antisemitism and claiming that the Jews are killing Polish children appeared (...) According to information received by Ministry of Public Security, flyers were printed by illegal party Stronnictwo Narodowe.
Simultanously pogroms were attempted in the Mechów, Tarnów, and Nowy Targ counties of Kraków voivodeship. In Mechów written appeals calling to murder Jews were found. (to be continued)
Contrary to User:Dr. Dan I didn’t find anything particularly new in the so called Stalin file except that it has been prepared by an apparatchik from the notorious Soviet Secret Service NKWD, which has already begun to tighten its grip on Polish citizenry by the time the events took place. One sentence caught my attention though. “Prowokatorzy zrobili to po to, żeby pokazać światu iż wojska sowieckie i NKWD wciąż są potrzebne w Polsce dla utrzymania porządku i ochrony bezpieczeństwa Żydów” which can be translated as “The provocateurs did it in order to prove that the Soviet army and the NKWD are still needed in Poland to secure order and to defend the safety of Jews.” It is the sort of newspeak that has been mastered by NKWD long before 1945, beginning with the Soviet invasion of Poland. -- Poeticbent talk 02:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Since I see no objections against the usage of the Stalin file I understand that there is a some sort of silent consensus that we all are OK with that. Regarding the content of the Stalin file. I can't agree that there's nothing new in it. As it was noted by some editors before, according to quite a few pogrom definitions, the common atrribute of a pogrom is that it is organized. The Stalin file sheds some light on that question. Also the multiple victims requirement is also addressed. So far the discussion was circling around Anna Cichopek. To end this vicious circle refs other than Anna will be provided, as promised. And I hope that this discussion manages to move on from the irrelevant scrutiny of Anna's biography to the most important question - Why did the pogrom happen. M0RD00R 20:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Moved from main page: The Kraków pogrom or Cracow pogrom refers to the events that occurred on August 11, 1945, in the city of Kraków, Poland, when from one [1] [2] [3] to up to five [4] [5] Polish Jews were murdered and many were beaten. [5] Since one death is confirmed in all historical sources, it is questionable whether this event truly falls under the definition of a pogrom.
I suggest to work on the lead, when consensus over the rest of the issues is reached. So far it should stay as neutral as can be. M0RD00R 22:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It looks like you good folks are back on track. If you need anything in the future, don't hesitate to ask; that's what I am here for. We are all in this together.
-
Arcayne
07:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Can M0RD00R prove what he wrote: "majority of historians refer to it as such." ? Mynek 11:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Can Mynek show more than 1? 216.252.84.28 04:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
References
Kwiek1
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Kwiek2
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Libionka
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |chapterurl=
and |coauthors=
(
help)p. 272
Onet
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
I removed the absurd remark about "not being a pogrom since only 1 death victim was confirmed". This will suggest quiet new, previously unknown definition of a pogrom, based on a "several death victims"-rule.
A pogrom is defined as follows: "a form of riot directed against a particular group, whether ethnic, religious or other, and characterized by destruction of their homes, businesses and religious centers. Usually pogroms are accompanied with physical violence against the targeted people and even murder or massacre." see pogrom. Regards -- 213.200.155.119 10:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Once again I remove irrelevant (and highly tasteless) remark about this not being a pogrom since only one death victim was confirmed. The definition of a pogrom does not include any body count! Please refrain from reverting without giving a proper argument! -- 213.200.155.119 20:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's what the Polish historian Dariusz Libionka wrote in the conclussion of his Polish language review of Anna Cichopek, Pogrom Żydów w Krakowie 11 sierpnia 1945 in PAMIĘĆ I SPRAWIEDLIWOŚĆ magazine published by the Instytut Pamięci Narodowej (Warszawa, 1 (1) / 2002, ISSN 1427-7476):
Kilka zastrzeżeń można zgłosić pod adresem niektórych partii książki. Prawie zupełnie pominięto stanowisko powstającego właśnie PSL. Autorka powołuje się na jeden tylko tekst pochodzący z prasy Zrzeszenia „Wolność i Niezawisłość”. Tymczasem niezmiernie ciekawe interpretacje genezy i przebiegu pogromu krakowskiego, przy okazji wiele mówiące o postawach wśród jego członków, znaleźć można w innych (opublikowanych) dokumentach WiN. Wiele przypisów zrobionych jest niestarannie. Nie podano na przykład ani autorów, ani tytułów cytowanych tekstów z prasy lokalnej i partyjnej. Nie przekonuje teza, że znakomita większość artykułów publicystycznych powstałych w reakcji na pogrom pisana była językiem „nowomowy”, w znaczeniu nadanym temu pojęciu przez Michała Głowińskiego. [..] W wielu wypadkach, zwłaszcza w rozdziale pierwszym, właściwiej byłoby, gdyby autorka odwołała się do istniejących opracowań niż do archiwaliów. Pomimo wymienionych mankamentów recenzowana pozycja jest niezmiernie wartościowa i znacznie poszerza naszą wiedzę na temat stosunków polsko-żydowskich. (p.182)
Dariusz Libionka
I think more of his review could be mentioned. -- Poeticbent talk 17:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Once again I have removed the following:
"He also stated that the book by Cichopek was based on unscientific data with sources not properly cited, but the book itself is of immense value. [1]"
Where exactly did he stated that the book "was based on unscientific data"? Quotation please! -- 213.200.155.119 06:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Please stop trying to hide the fact that the book was written by an amateur (a student at best). The purpose of the reinstated statement is self-explanatory. It is a critical opinion expressed by a seasoned professional who's specializing in the subject. 207.102.64.210 22:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
References
I’m providing my English translation of the aforementioned text by Libionka in hope of curtailing the senseless edit war and thereby resolving the issue. Please improve on my translation if you can.
Several critical comments can be made about some parts of the book. Almost entirely omitted was the opinion of the newly created PSL. The author relies on only one text published by Society “Wolność i Niezawisłość” (Freedom and Independence). Meanwhile, extremely interesting interpretations of the genesis and the development of the Kraków pogrom, revealing attitudes of the participants, can be found in other (already published) documents of WiN. Many footnotes were made with carelessness. The names of the writers and the titles of the quoted text from local and the party press were not provided. Not convincing is the thesis, that the overwhelming majority of articles published by the press in response to the pogrom were written in “newspeak”, as defined originally by Michał Głowiński. [..] In many cases, especially in chapter one, it would have been more appropriate if the author relied on existing studies rather than on archival material. In spite of the aforementioned faults the work under review is immensely valuable and broadens our knowledge about the Polish-Jewish relations.
I’m pasting the following citation from Libionka into the disputed section. In many cases – Libionka suggested – it would have been more appropriate if the author relied on existing studies rather than on archival material. I hope this will settle the issue. -- Poeticbent talk 14:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I have removed a few references from the paragraph about Dobroszycki, with the edit summary that was meant to read: (Removed ref. none of which Dobroszycki was a part of. Please stick to his findings instead of distorting them, and keep Libionka's words intact). For the record, I have read My Brother's Keeper cover to cover with great interest and equally great concern. However, Dobroszycki did not contribute to that book nor to any of those irrelevant links. Nevertheless, I have taken a note of the fact that the texts mentioned in the removed references would be of interest. However, the paragraph about Dobroszycki's findings supported by Yad Vashem Resource Center are just about that… Dobroszycki's findings. If you want to contest those findings write another paragraph about the events in Kraków (or elsewhere), but do not attempt to turn his statements and my citations (already supported by solid reference) into sheer nonsense. -- Poeticbent talk 02:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Hold your horses! You are NOT quoting Dobroszycki nor the findings by Yad Vashem Center, and I hope you do understand the difference. You are quoting Tomasz Gross who’s famous for his anti-Polish sentiment and a few authors who picked up the same thread in books none of which Dobroszycki was a part of. That is what I said. Dobroszycki did not write those books nor any part of them. The number 1500 was attributed to him only according to above quotations which you submitted. However, Yad Vashem Resource Center has proven that Dobroszycki’s numbers do add up. They conducted a separate study to prove it. Nobody else did. I repeat, please leave my paragraphs alone and supply your own evidence to the contrary. The dead victims should be honoured, not mocked by a propaganda machine. -- Poeticbent talk 14:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I was interested more if Jews from Soviet units like those in Koniuchy Massacre who were killed during fighting are counted as Jewish victims. Are the Soviet and communist Jewish officials, soldiers who were killed in fighting or resistance to Soviet rule in Poland counted along with Jewish victims or seperated from that number ?
1919 and Jedwabne are outside the scope of this article. If you are interested in background for those two topics an interesting review would be in relation to 1919 Jewish-Polish relations in WW1 and attitude of Jewish organisations to the concept of Polish state being restored in contrast to other options, and in case of Jedwabne Jewish-Polish relations before the massacre , including the 1939-1941 period under Soviet occupation.
There is nothing here about justification and pride here. As to the vicitms in Pinsk I don't know this case, but in Jedwabne If I remember well there were some serious issues during Soviet occupation in regards to relations between Poles and Jews. Not that it justifies the massacre, but the motivation behind it should be detailed-of course it doesn't mean it was right. But it is not right to hide the background of the conflict.
In the aftermath section the full picture the role members of Jewish minority played in communist authorities should be described and what consequences it had for perception of Jewish people in eyes of Polish population.
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/rogatin/roh032e.html "But when on September 17, 1939 the Soviet Army entered the eastern regions instead of the Germans, the Jews without exception welcomed them as liberators and protectors against the Germans and the local population. The Jews welcomed the Soviet soldiers openly and the new power began to deal with the Jews with the same trust with which it dealt with its own brothers -- the Ukrainians. Jews were employed by the Soviet officials in the administration and even in the local militia. Jews went gladly to these tasks since there were very many unemployed craftsmen and intellectuals. Meanwhile the reorganization of trade, industry and economy on a Soviet basis had begun. Cooperatives of shoemakers, tailors, tinsmiths, and bakers were organized. Each of these artels -or cooperatives was headed by a leader with previous craft experience -- in most cases a Jew. Raw materials mere brought from Stanislavov, Lemberg and Tarnopol. In these cities, too, Jews played an important role as the most experienced craftsmen. The Jewish and non-Jewish workers in the artels worked under the guidance of Jewish directors. Control over the factories was in the hands of the Party, which again had greater trust in the Jews than in the non-Jews. The Party knew that we Jews didn't have any political aspirations and only wanted to work and live in peace. The Party also knew that behind the non-Jews there was an underground nationalistic organization which was carrying on sabotage against collectivization."
The role Polish perception of collaboration by Jewish minority with Soviets played in those accidents should be mentioned for the full picture.
That unsourced opinion is rather extreme by claiming Poles were more interested in killing Jews rather opposing Soviet occupation, and I don't think NSZ killed that one person in Kraków so why the quote ? Anyway you haven't adressed the issue that the current version of aftermath lacks information that is needed to paint the whole picture. It seems you prefer a one-sided view of things, which is fine, as long as you let other complete the picture.
Why do you ignore the issue of accusations of collaboration ? I could claim it is you who wants to whitewashed picture. As to NSZ-base your claims on something more serious then 1945 text from the height of Stalinist anti-polish propaganda. Trial of Sixteen isn't used as source of serious knowledge for example.
The Poles make pogroms and are nasty. White Americans are smarter - they riot.
What about Jedwabne, Kraków and Kielce riots? Xx236 16:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, if you actually knew something about those riots then you would not be blurting things out the way you just did. Pogrom is such a misused word, it's sickens me. Perhaps some of you should have some respect for history. Go read about these pogroms (a word which has a different meaning in the colloquial sense, as you are applying this term as equally to events where thousands were killed as to isolated incidents where a few individuals died), instead of swallowing propaganda like that of Gross, which was confirmed to be wrong and might as well be called libelous. The implication I am against is this insistence by some to paint the Poles as some anti-Semitic nation, just waiting to round up some Jews and go wild. It's absurd. There are anti-Semitic "elements" in every country, just as there are anti-"Goy" elements among the Jews, and focusing attention on Poland in some incredibly disproportionate way gives only the false impression these events were on the scale of what was happening in Germany or the western Soviet Union. One could mention that isolated cases occurred in Poland, but comparing those cases to radically different widespread actions elsewhere is incredibly dishonest, irresponsible or exhibits a profound ignorance. At the same time, noteworthy cases which are comparable to those conducted by the Soviets and Nazis, such as that involving Salomon Morel, are hardly known. Why is that? -- 71.233.248.90
The group didn't execute Kuraś' orders at that moment. I have replace the word group by partizans, maybe someone can do it better. The commander was later executed on Kuraś' order because of his another crime. Xx236 ( talk) 13:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Admittedly, "pogrom" is a sensitive term, but please... citations by the foot-run? For one word? That's pretty preposterous, and it just makes Wikipedia look ridiculous. If the article's editors find it absolutely necessary to provide nineteen citations - and I doubt that it is - can they at least be combined in a single inline link for now? That way, the reader would be distracted by a gigantic footnote, rather than more than an inch of blue. Better still, see WP:OVERCITE. Haploidavey ( talk) 14:23, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kraków pogrom. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 07:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Kraków pogrom. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:54, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
In her 2014 book, note 63 on page 125, Cichopek stated
Regrettably, in my book, I mistakenly suggested that at least five people were killed in the pogrom, based on photographs from the Kraków Photographic Society. However, Julian Kwiek convincingly argued that these photographs showed another event: the Kraków funeral of five Jews murdered outside the city in April 1946. See Kwiek, Kwartalnik Historii Zydow, no. 2/198 (June 2001).
No one is defending this theory anymore so why give it so much space in the article? b uidh e 21:59, 14 March 2020 (UTC)