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This article is protected since May 30 because of disputes on its introduction. Please refer to /Archive 9 and /Intro_changes_proposal for more information. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Why the lists of former Presinents and Prime Ministers? We don't do this anywhere else in Wikipedia and it emphasises the Albanian viewpoint without a balanced discussion of political leaders from the minority communities: why not take the list back to before 1999? (JD)
Finally the good editors of Wikipedia came to their senses. I remember a time when Kosovo was a part of the FRY even though it was 2005. I'm glad that it really does say that it is part of Serbia. Peace. -- Косово 04:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
There has been no agreement whatsoever. The dispute continues! Ferick 00:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I do not agree with this version, at all. ilir_pz 11:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I do not think I can bear it. Thanks for the piece of advice. ilir_pz 11:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I think it might be worth reminding people of the basic rules of Wikipedia. A lot of the arguments over the previous version of this article were, I think, largely due to these policies not being followed. I've rewritten the article to make it strictly wikipolicy-compliant, and I intend to ensure that those policies are followed on this article:
If we follow these policies we should be OK. -- ChrisO 07:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I hate to jump into this discussion, but the term "province" is, at best, misleading and, at worst, inaccurate and biased.
The encylopedias cited here are (generally) out of date or incorrect. "Province" refers to an administrative unit within a larger country. UNSCR 1244, however, makes clear that Kosovo is not administered by Serbia, even through "FRY" sovereignty and territorial integrity is to be respected. Serbia is permitted no role in Kosovo's governance, therefore it cannot be administratively a part of Serbia. Most (but admittedly not all) serious international documents on Kosovo avoid the word (for example, go through the last six years of Contact Group public statements) for this reason. Every once in awhile it slips into a UN document. Most media outlets are too lazy to get this one right.
More problematic, however, is that the term suggests bias. Belgrade officials at the high-level talks in Vienna last week made a point of repeatedly calling Kosovo their "province," knowing it would annoy the Kosovars (it did!). Plus, the mere fact that we are having this discussion demonstrates that the term is controversial. Since there are a hundred other good ways to refer to Kosovo without using this term, it is good usage to use something that is neutral (region, UN-administered territory, etc.)
I have no problem with noting that Kosovo is still part of Serbia (something the Kosovars like to forget!). Per UNSCR 1244, Kosovo is legally part of Serbia (as the successor state to the FRY), at least until the political process to determine Kosovo's future status is concluded. Ideally, this important distinction should be referred to in the introduction more accurately.
I disagree with the previous comments, with good grounds. Please see the section below. (JD)
For the record, I think it's worth mentioning how other reputable and reliable encyclopedias describe Kosovo's status:
In short, there isn't a single reference source that I can find that describes Kosovo as anything other than a province in Serbia. This emphasizes just how far outside the mainstream Ilir pz and Ferick's position is. -- ChrisO 12:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Eh - that's what I've been trying to say for a long time... Please skim the Archives. The same thing (...Province of Serbia...) is stated by the CIA World Factbook, as well as by several sites dedicated to the "Countries of the World", Brockhaus Encyclopedia, LaRousse, etc. -- HolyRomanEmperor 18:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
How can you be allowed to misinterprete a Constitution just like that then? NOWHERE does this UN approved document state what some people are speculating above? I am all against speculation, dear Wikipedians. Should anyone have a political reason to push for that, I am the last person who cares about that pushy way of misinterpreting a law. Regards, ilir_pz 14:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I hate to jump into this discussion, but the term "province" is, at best, misleading and, at worst, inaccurate and biased.
The encylopedias cited here are (generally) out of date or incorrect. "Province" refers to an administrative unit within a larger country. UNSCR 1244, however, makes clear that Kosovo is not administered by Serbia, even through "FRY" sovereignty and territorial integrity is to be respected. Serbia is permitted no role in Kosovo's governance, therefore it cannot be administratively a part of Serbia. Most (but admittedly not all) serious international documents on Kosovo avoid the word (for example, go through the last six years of Contact Group public statements) for this reason. Every once in awhile it slips into a UN document. Most media outlets are too lazy to get this one right.
More problematic, however, is that the term suggests bias. Belgrade officials at the high-level talks in Vienna last week made a point of repeatedly calling Kosovo their "province," knowing it would annoy the Kosovars (it did!). Plus, the mere fact that we are having this discussion demonstrates that the term is controversial. Since there are a hundred other good ways to refer to Kosovo without using this term, it is good usage to use something that is neutral (region, UN-administered territory, etc.)
I have no problem with noting that Kosovo is still part of Serbia (something the Kosovars like to forget!). Per UNSCR 1244, Kosovo is legally part of Serbia (as the successor state to the FRY), at least until the political process to determine Kosovo's future status is concluded. Ideally, this important distinction should be referred to in the introduction more accurately. Envoy202 10:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
EW, well most still call Kosovo a province, since that is what it still technically is. However, I could settle for just saying "Kosovo" instead of "the province". As for the status of Kosovo, the article does say that "since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations with little direct involvement from the Serbian government" which is correct and, in my opinion, appropriate for an introductory text. The UNSCR 1244 stuff and other details should be set out in the main body of the text.
Osli73
12:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Osli -- yup, that's my point exactly: why use a loaded controversial term when there are other ways of saying the same thing just as accurately?
I do have a grumble with the line on "little direct involvement from the Serbian government." The Serbian government has *no* direct involvement in Kosovo's governance. UNMIK reigns supreme. That was the whole point of UNSCR 1244 -- Kosovo is still technical part of Serbia, but Serbia has no role governing it. U.S. Department of State lawyers like to refer to it as a "suspension of Belgrade's exercise of sovereign rights." Saying that Serbia has a "little direct involvement" begs a question: in what ways does Serbia govern? UNSCR 1244 and seven years of practice have demonstrated that Serbia does not. -- Envoy202 20:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Chris -- You're right to note that "province" is still used by some media outlets. However, instead of following just media sources, I would proposing following instead international diplomatic usage. Most diplomatic sources studiously avoid the term because a) it's not technically correct (yes, I know this is a hyper-wonky argument!) and b) it's inflammatory. I'd point you to the Contact Group's public statements from the last year, as well as the most recent UN Presidential Statements. I'm sure that the word "province" has crept into some diplomatic communique over the years, but it's always left out of the more important documents (e.g., the CG's Guiding Principles from November 2005 or the January 2006 London ministerial declaration). Would you think I was a rabid pro-Albanian sympathizer if we changed it to just "Kosovo"? *grin* -- Envoy202 23:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Chris -- You are quite right that Serbia does send subsidies to Kosovo Serb communities, with estimates running as high as $80 million a year. I do not think, however, that sending assistance qualifies as a "direct involvement" in governance. USAID also sends subsidies and assistance to Kosovo Serb communities -- does that mean the United States has at least a "direct involvement" in the governance of Kosovo? Another key point is that the parallel institutions (e.g., in health, education) this money finances are operating extra-legally in Kosovo, outside of the legal remit of the Constitutional Framework and UNSCR 1244. For example, there is evidence Serbia has numerous interior ministry (MUP) personnel in Kosovo, in violation of UNSCR 1244. The Contact Group, in its July 24 statement from Vienna, publicly expressed alarm over an apparent increase in such personnel in northern Kosovo. This state of affairs has been tolerated by UNMIK, largely because it would be too difficult to dismantle the parallel institutions entirely. I would further note that the issue of parallel institutions and the Serbian role in Kosovo is a major issue in the Ahtisaari's Vienna decentralization talks now underway (next meeting will take place next week). Belgrade wants to legalize and legitimate its role sending assistance to K-Serbian communities. I think the final decentralization deal will allow such assistance (provided it is transparently funded), but at the end of the day will not allow for direct Belgrade involvement in governing the municipalities. Bottom line: I continue to believe it is inaccurate to characterize Belgrade's provision of assistance to K-Serbs as "direct involvement" in governing Kosovo. UNSCR 1244 and seven years of pratice have been unequivocal on this point. Question for you: other than Belgrade's subsidies, do you have any other examples of Belgrade's "direct involvement" of Kosovo governance? -- Envoy202 23:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with Envoy202, with good grounds. Our discussions shouldn't confuse the necessities of the language used in diplomatic negotiations with hard fact. The administration of the Serbian province of Kosovo by the UN and the establishment of provisional institutions of self-government thereby do not change the fundamental constitutional position of the territory: a province of the Republic of Serbia. The UN is prevented by its own charter (article 2) from challenging the territorial integrity of a member state, and the integrity of Serbia (then part of the FRY) is recognised in both UNSC 1244 and the Rambouillet accords. UNMIK has been delegated certain powers by the UN in it's agreement with FRY/Serbia on the administration of Kosovo; the ability to prejudge final status is not among them. The UN charter and international law have primacy in this, not UNMIK or the constitution of the provisional institutions of self-government.
Certainly UNMIK (as distinct from the UN itself or the body of international law) and much of the international community in Kosovo go to great lengths to avoid the use of the term 'province' for fear of upsetting the ethnic albanian community; this does not alter the point of fact the Kosovo is a province of Serbia (under UN adminstration, subject to final status negotiations). There is no need to show direct involvement by Belgrade in the administration of Kosovo to assert this fact: Kosovo is a province of Serbia administered by the UN. US State Department lawyers might well be of the opinion that the exercise of Serbia's sovereign rights has been suspended but this serves only to confirm the existance of those sovereign rights, even where they are not being exercised. Present usage in the wider world outside Kosovo by media and government alike still calls Kosovo, correctly, a province, whilst hedging the technical issue of whose province it is. So: it is technically correct to refer to Kosovo as a province, and more correct to call it an autonomous province. For the purposes of Wikipedia we need to use terminology sensitively (so naming this article Kosovo and not Kosovo i Metohija, and not making it subsidiary to the page on the Republic of Serbia) but also be clear and precise in our presentation of the facts; unlike the international community in Kosovo we do not need to hedge those facts to avoid the displeasure of Kosovo Albanian politicians or former-KLA freedom fighters.
Perhaps we should be more concerned that UNMIK is willing to distort the clarity of the UN Charter and UNSC 1244 and hide the fact of Kosovo's constitutional status from the Kosovo Albanian community. The impact of this is to persuade that community that independence is inevitable, when in fact final status must be the subject of negotiations and where even the Rambouillet accords (not even agreed to by Belgrade) call only for democratic self-government. (JD)
It is not completely clear to me what the official languages of Kosovo are. Until the 24th of May, the article named only Albanian and Serbian. That day, Turkish was added [4] and today even English [5]. This link [6] names only Albanian and Serbian, so that is what I changed it to. Maybe somebody can clarify? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 15:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Turkish was an official language in Kosovo until UNMIK administration was installed. Not sure about the official languages as of now. Will check that again. Not sure that Serbian will be an official language either, they are a minority of less than 6%, and in Macedonia Albanians do not get that even though they are around 20%, but can use it only in the cities where it is official. We'll see how that works. ilir_pz 13:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
According to the USAID: "Because Kosovo is not a country, it does not have an official flag—residents often use that of Albania—or an official language. English is used for official business, and all traffic signs are in both Albanian and Serbian." Official documents are copied in local languages, but de jure none of them are official. TSO1D 14:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The website of EU in Kosovo clearly states that "The official languages in Kosovo are Albanian and Serbian. The majority of the population speaks Albanian. Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian are spoken by minorities. A very large number of people also speak English, German and other European languages. English is the official language of UNMIK. The texts of legislation created in Kosovo since the beginning of the UNMIK administration exist in English, Albanian and Serbian." Regards, ilir_pz 14:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
According to the so-called Constitutional Framework, paragraph 9.3.17: Meetings of the Government and its bodies shall be conducted in both the Albanian and Serbian languages. All official documents of the Government shall be printed in both the Albanian and Serbian languages. [8] So I suppose its Albanian and Serbian. According to this website: [9], Turkish was considered but not approved as an official language. And English is the official language of UNMIK. [10] Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 18:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
User:Ferick keeps removing the sentence that describes the Pro-Serbian site listed at the bottom of the page as "with the aim of reminding the foreign public once more of the gravity of situation of human rights facing Serbian and other non-Albanian populations in Kosovo-Metohija.", which is simply what the site is doing.
May I remind everyone that every single Pro-Albanian link has an explination of what it's about and it is not fair to let an Albanian, Ferick, delete sentences that describe Pro-Serbian sites, especially when they are harmless like this one. I rather think the descriptions of the Pro-Albanian links are very inflamatory, like "Save Kosova", and everyone knows it's Kosovo in English, and not Kosova which is in Albanian (Imagine if someone wrote Kosovo in Serbian, imagine what the Albanian users would do...), or maybe "American Council for Kosovo, increasing the awareness of the recognition of Kosovo's independence in the American society.", which suggests that Kosovo is already independent and what is left is for it to be recognized, and that is also inflamatory. But I'll stop here, because I don't care much about how the Pro-Albanian links are described, and I would appreciate the same amount of respect when regarding the Pro-Serbian links. Please don't erase descriptions. -- serbiana - talk 00:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Again, without discussing like I have, Ferick erased the sentence describing the Pro-Serbian link, he even wrote "Staying on gurad against Serb vandalism.", which I find extremely nationalistic, considering that the sentence I added is clearly harmless. I will not revert, but rather allow others to give opinion, and I ask Ferick to explain his actions. -- serbiana - talk 04:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Is that Wikipedia is not truth, but verifiability. -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It's interesting you say verifiability. A lot of Serbs have verified that they were the victims of 1999 wars. If you ask, they will produce a ton load of documents proving that they were the victims. It's also interesting to note that the Serb regime went out of its way to hide crimes, believing, I guess, that if the crimes were not verified, they didn't occur. Very interesting theory you have.... Ferick 21:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Woaaaa………you are wrong on every sentence. Literally every sentence has inaccurate information. Congrads on that achievement!
You ask: why would Serbia do anything about Kosovo if there was no reason to do so? Nobody ever said Serbia did things without a reason. Serbia had her reasons pretty well laid out: a total and complete elimination of any Albanian traces in Kosovo. When you come to thing about it, it wasn’t a stupid reason after all. They consider Kosovo the heart of their nation, yet the majority of people living there were not Serbs. So in way Kosovo was sticking out and destroying the Serbian dream and myth. The only way to solve the problem was killing and expelling. Various Serbian governments had tried every other way to subdue Kosovo Albanian for decades, so killing and expelling them was the last and only hope. You know what happen after that………..
Serbia tried to subdue Albanians way before the KLA ever came into being, so you are wrong on this one as well. And by the way, I haven’t seen any other instance in a world since WWII when a country has tried using physical elimination of entire people (by either killing or expelling them) as a political tool.
Thousands of Serbs were ethnically cleansed? How about this: Million Albanians were ethnically cleansed? How does that sound to you, equal deeds? There is no doubt that some Serbs were cleansed from Kosovo, but about 60-80% of them left Kosovo way before anybody could even tell them to leave. They left together with Serb forces, you know. I say this because I was there and I saw them. Did they have good reason to leave? You bet! They were smart enough to realize that people are going to seek revenge from them. By the way, they are all welcomed back anytime to live in their properties.
KLA, a CIA-confirmed terrorist organization? Baloney (another words, you are factually wrong….again?)
Serb forces wanted to rid Kosovo of all Albanians? I think for most of the world the camps in Albania and Macedonia were enough evidence. NATO didn’t intervene just for the heck of it, did they? But I digress, you are right we will never see a piece of paper signed by Milosevic showing that he ordered the total elimination of Albanians. So you won on this one…………. Well, in a way. Here is something new to you: Actions speak more than words!
Albanian guerilla leaders saying that Kosovo is only for the Albanians? Baloney (Another made up fact, incidentally not verifiable)J.
Ethnic cleansing organized from Belgrade is not a fact? Insane and very much false statement! Go to www.google.com and type ethic cleansing (don’t even type Kosovo or Serbia) and see for yourself.
Facts are out there, around the corner, in front of you. They are calling your name. Help yourself and look at them, even once, and truth shall set you free! Sincerely yours, Ferick.
Ferick 03:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Ohh boy, you have a very strange view of the world. How do you manage to live in the real world where you have to accept things as they are? Just curious……. Ferick 15:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
You still didn’t answer me: how do you manage to reconcile you fantasy world with the real one? Perhaps we can learn SOMETHING from you………… Ferick 23:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Most of the world has, by now, agreed that Milosevic's regime was repressive. So the word repressive is not a matter of personal opinion but a descriptive word that accurately describes a regime. I am surprised that, of all things out there, you have taken upon yourself to defend a Repressive Regime. Salon – Rage against the regime [11] US Congress [12] The Financial Times-Milosevic turns screw on news [13] US Office in Pristina- Kosovo,Irag and the values we share [14]
Contrary to your believe, the word repressive has been used by just about every media when describing Milosovics administration. It may pain you to learn this, but it’s a matter of fact not an opinion. Ferick 20:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I suggest you make yourself acquainted with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. It does not matter whether prominent individuals and establishments called the police force repressive, you still cannot simply use that adjective directly as fact, as there are others who disagree with it. For instance, you can say the police force which has been described as repressive by .., ..., and ...., but you cannot simply state that the police force is repressive. TSO1D 21:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I can...and I just did. You can open your own website if you like to defend repressive regimes. And by the way, it’s not up to you to interpret what is NPOV and what is not. Ferick 21:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Official policy states: "We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves." I don't see how you can interpret this in any other way. The idea that the Serbian police force was repressive is just that an opinion, no matter how firmly you or even the majority of people might believe it. TSO1D 21:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I am inclined on adding here: saying that Miloshevich's rule was a dictatorship is slightly, pretty much a fact - and that his reign was authoritarion would be true as well. However, one must understand that although Slobodan Miloshevich was/is a hero to many, he did use means of oppression to stay in power (nothing nationalist/racist/ethnic, only as a means for power). THAT is a fact. Ever heard of the Otpor Serbian resistence? For a good understanding, compare him with the current authoritarian dictatorial Premier of Montenegro, Milo Đukanović - a well-known War Criminal, Smuggler, Vote-buyer, Propaganda spreader, Abusive-means politicians and Mafia Boss. -- HolyRomanEmperor 14:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
...is that User:Ferick admittedly and openly refused to follow/read Wikipedia's policies. I know that they are not a necessity - but it is to my opinion that they should be honored, or at least read for Wikipedia's sake.
...posted from User_talk:Ferick#Hello. -- HolyRomanEmperor 14:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
To the above user: enough with your ranting! Ferick 16:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I guess you need clarification: I was talking about the above teenager. Please grow up and don’t waste other people’s time. When you grow up, perhaps we can discuss issues as two adults. Right now the debate is very lopsided: between an adult and an emotional adolescent. I found a good side where you can put your two cents: Teen Advice.org [15]. Talk to you in a few years. Ferick 18:18, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Not to open up pandora's box, but is there any chance a small note could be inserted that the word province is not being used in the common sense? At first glance it could appear to some readers (e.g. me) that Kosovo and Vojvodina are the only two administrative divisions, rather than the only two of a special type. Maybe a reference to "Administrative subdivisions" on the Serbia page. Just to make it clear that Serbia has districts as well. echalon
The correct way to put it would be "Kosovo is one of two autonomous provinces of Serbia...", but the Albanian loby wouldn't like that... -- serbiana - talk 23:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no reason for the above reason to pretend as if he is neutral. You have proven yourself many times to be very biased and the above congratulations from the Serbian user is just another example. Neither version is correct. The sentence that describes the situation correctly is the current one. Ferick 18:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Yet, you continue to lump Kosovo with Vojvodina. Ferick 16:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I like to ask all of you, what is wrong with the following wording? This describes the situation as it is. It says nothing about Kosovo being independent. On the other side it does say it is a UN run province, de jure part of Yugoslavia ( now Serbia). Help me out here! Does anybody here know something different from what is described below? If so, please enlighten us!
Kosovo (Albanian: Kosovë/Kosova, Serbian: Косово и Метохија/Kosovo i Metohija) is located in the south-east Europe, bordering Albania, Macedonia and Montenegro. The mountainous province's capital and largest city is Priština. Kosovo has a population of around two million people, predominately ethnic Albanians, with smaller populations of Serbs and other ethnic groups. The province is the subject of a long-running political and territorial dispute between the Serbian (and previously, the Yugoslav) government and Kosovo's Albanian population. Although by the UN Security Resolution 1244, it is de jure and regarded as a part of Former Yugoslavia (now Serbia), since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations with little direct involvement from the Serbian government. Kosovo is governed by the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) and the locally elected Provisional Institutions of Self-Government, with security maintained by the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR) and Kosovo Police Service. Negotiations began in 2006 to determine the final status of Kosovo. Ferick 18:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The comments above show once again that the above users are trying to push their own personal opinion. Who is arguing that Kosovo is not de jure part of Yugoslavia (now Serbia)? The above paragraph clearly states that, but once again you don’t care what the paragraph says: if it is not YOUR PREFERED version, then it must be wrong.
The paragraph is factually correct, and no one cares if the version is to your liking or not. Wikipedia was not developed to please neither of you. As long as there is no objection to the facts of the paragraph, I will insist on this version. Ferick 21:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
1. This is getting ridicules. An amateur “Balkan Historian” wants to tell the world that legal judgments about European countries can only be drawn from the Helsinki Act, agreed upon 30 years ago. This just shows that you have no clue what you are talking about, and makes people even more determined to oppose you views. According to you, countries such as Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia should not exist because the Helsinki Act reaffirmed the sovereignty of Yugoslavia. Right? That’s one of the dumbest arguments I have ever seen. In addition to that, the Helsinki Act does not even mention Serbia. Even more, any act agreed upon by nations after the Helsinki Act and which contradicts the Helsinki Act, takes precedence. That’s normal International practice, and as a matter of fact it’s a practice that every nation uses when laws are changed. Just to remind you, laws are not written in stone to never change, and your proffered law does not take presence over the latest law. So contrary to your believe, UN Security Resolution 1244 is indeed the latest law about the legal status of Kosovo, and therefore takes precedence over any other law that may have been passed in Belgrade or Helsinki in the last century. Incidentally, there is only one other person in the world that uses the Helsinki Act to bolster Serbia’s argument over Kosovo: Kostunica. How coincidental that you agree with him!
2. This is RUBBISH- I have never claimed that Kosovo is not de jure part of Yugoslavia (now Serbia). This is a big time lie in your part.
I noticed in several other occasions that you argue points that nobody disagrees with just to make a point and make the opposing party looks as if they disagree with trivial facts- essentially make them look disruptive. Somebody should be made aware of this- we do not need ROUGE ADMINISTRATORS in Wikipedia.
3. Per Resolution 1244, Kosovo is part of Serbia and Montenegro which is now inherited by Serbia. Never said Kosovo was a republic, nor implied it. This is part of your smear campaign against users you disagree with. Kosovo was a Constituent part of Yugoslavia per 1974 Constitution with the same voting rights as all other republics. I think Vojvodina did not have this right [16]. Regardless of what Kosovo was in the last century, that’s part of History. What we are arguing here is the current status of Kosovo. Even if you want to go with the Serb Law, Kosovo cannot be said to be an autonomous province of Serbia because that autonomy was revoked by Serbia and it has never been restored by the Serb Parliament.
ChrisO 20:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Breaking news. Accroding to the state department :"Serbia abolished the political autonomy of Kosovo in 1990"[ [17]] Ferick 14:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
4. More rubbish here- please don’t copy and paste your previous arguments many times over. Ferick 17:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes it was-all but in name.Read the 1974 Constitution and then 1990, and you will see. Ferick 19:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Please don’t cherry pick which arguments you respond to. There is no reason for me to respond for as long as you keep doing this. Ferick 05:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Over the next few days, I plan to make some major changes to the history section of the article and to the related History of Kosovo article. This article's history section is way too long and detailed for what's supposed to be an overview article; I intend to replace it with a much shorter and simplified version. As for History of Kosovo, it will probably be necessary to rewrite it from scratch. It's almost entirely unreferenced and very badly written in places. Unfortunately the lack of references will most likely mean that much of the content will have to be dumped until people can find proper sources for the assertions it makes. -- ChrisO 22:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Will it be more of what we seen from you so far, or a sincere attempt to make the article better? We shall see………. Ferick 17:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The history section seems slightly biased against Serbian history in Kosovo whilst freely associating present-day Kosovo Albanians with historical communities who may or may not be their descendents. (JD)
Why is this article not called Kosovo and Metohija or Kosovo and Metohia? Thats the official name of the province. -- Svetislav Jovanović 21:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Who told you that? Milosevic? Ferick 23:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I am sure people will take you seriously when you bring up a serious argument. Ferick 03:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Ferick, I don't understand the new version of the introduction that you are trying to introduce. You de-wikified several of the words for no apparent reason, but that is a minor change. But you removed the fact that there is another autonomous province in Serbia, why? Then you said that there is no direct Serbian involvement although Resolution 1244 does stipulate that "4) Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to perform the functions in accordance with annex 2;" and always emphasizes Kosovo's autnomous status within Yugoslavia/Serbia. Then the part about internation recognition should not be removed. Although you might consider it redundant, it emphasizes the fact that the international community views Kosovo as a territorial unit of Serbia which is an important matter. TSO1D 14:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Not sure what de-wikication you are talking about. As I have said many times before, Vojvodina will have no place here whatsoever. There is no reason or logic for it. Vojvodina is part of Serbia, and you can make that assertion there. It’s a matter of personal opinion of yours and some others to keep Vojvodina here, but it will not happen. That’s all I have to say about that.
As to your second point about Resolution 1244, it does say that an agreed version of Serb forces will be allowed to return. So what? There has been no “agreed number” and they have not returned-therefore Serbia has zero-nada-influence over the running of Kosovo institutions. Just because it might happen in the future it doesn’t give you the right to say that it is happening now. This is an absurd argument. The article describes the current situation in Kosovo, not its future.
Your third argument about including “de-jure” and “internationally recognized” in the paragraph. Can you define de-jure for me? Of course it’s redundant in addition to being a preferred version of yours and some others here. Next time don’t revert the article and invite me to a discussion page if you have no legs to stand on. Thanks. Ferick 15:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh boy...Where did I say "Vojvodina is different from Kosovo because the former is a part of Serbia".? Nowhere- therefore your inability to understand the argument! All I said is that you can put Vojvodina all over the page in Serbia- Not here. See Missouri for example. Serbia has no influence over the running of Kosovo institutions-not marginal, a little bit, a tiny bit-but zero-null. Ferick 06:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Helsinki Act, as I have said before, says nothing about Serbia, or Kosovo or Vojvodina........We need some sources here that says nothing has happened in Europe since 1975 that contradicts the Helsinki Act. USNCR 1244 does not maintain the "territorial integrity" of all the former Yugoslav states and nor does Helsinki Act. If so, source please. Your source dos not say anything about Serbia’s involvement in the north- it merely says the north operates as it were part of Serbia, which is not the same (perhaps the north is emulating Serbia). In addition the source should be checked for verifiability because it says security forces in the north operate outside the framework of the government- a false assertion. Kosovo police with KFOR enforce Kosovo law everywhere in Kosovo, including the north. Ferick 06:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Again,cherry picking what you like to answer. But I ask again: we need some sources here that says nothing has happened in Europe since 1975 that contradicts the Helsinki Act. Can you bring Helsinki Act and anex 2 for everybody to see it? Thanks Ferick 13:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, if one article is about "dog" then you should not write about "cat", right? This is article about Kosovo, not about Vojvodina or about Subdivisions of Serbia. What if Serbia for example have 10 provinces? You would mention all of them here in the preface part of the Kosovo article??? This is clear violation of the basic literary principle that if you have one subject you should not write about another in that article. Besides this, it is in fact 3 regions about what we speak here: Kosovo, Vojvodina, and Central Serbia, but if article is about Kosovo, why we should write about other two? I see no logic there. PANONIAN (talk) 02:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Again, your personal opinion. Ferick 13:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Good point, but as you will see, this caries no weigh here because it contradicts a paradigm held by the other user. Ferick 03:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
While nothing is so good that it can't be improved, it feels like it wasn't long ago that we agreed on a compromise introduction.
Osli73
12:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Panonian is correct to say that the legal status of Kosovo is not identical to that of Vojvodina. Each has different powers under the Serbian constitution, and Kosovo has (additionally) a set of provisional legal documents pending final status. The constitutional status of both Vojvodina and Kosovo is nevertheless the same: they are autonomous provinces of Serbia. The administrative status of each (and this is no doubt Panonian's point about armies and so forth) is, of course, radically different. And UNMIK in all this is only a means of delivering administration, not a constitutional factor in itself.
Panonian is right (in a way) in asserting that the de jure and de facto status of Kosovo are the same. De jure (UN Charter and UNSC 1244) Kosovo is a province of Serbia, and de facto Kosovo is a province of Serbia (under UN administration). I suppose you could argue that Kosovo is de facto an independent country, but any number of instances of UN power over the provisional institutions of self-government would show this view to be incorrect. You might argue that Kosovo is de facto a UN protectorate, but then the UN itself would tell you that Kosovo is (in fact) a province of Serbia under UN administration. Perhaps you could argue that Kosovo is de jure administered by Serbia but de facto administered by the UN, but even Serbia will tell you that it does not administer Kosovo and has abrogated (provisionally, pending final status) it's de jure rights to do so under the terms of UNSC 1244. So I think we should agree with Panonian on this and agree that, de jure and de facto, in constitutional terms, Kosovo is a province of Serbia.
As to Vojvodina, a casual reader would (in my opinion) be better equipped to understand the present status of Kosovo given the addtional information that Kosovo is one of two autonomous provinces of Serbia. Similar reference is made, for instance, in the Wikipedia articles on Wales ("Wales is one of four constituent countries of the United Kingdom") and Republika Srpska ("The Republika Srpska is one of the two political entities that together constitute the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the other entity being the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina."). Serbia is somewhat unusual in having a constitutional structure which gives some part of it's territory a federal structure whilst keeping the rest ('Serbia proper') unitary; we should make reference to this in giving context to Kosovo. (JD)
Can some of the admins please add this sentence (alter it in any way you see fit): "Kosovo is a transshipment point for Southwest Asian heroin moving to Western Europe on the Balkan route; the economy is vulnerable to money laundering" CIA reference, I think it's important to put in the article, but I don't dare to add it, because Ferick or Ilir will remove it... -- KOCOBO 03:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I thought so. Ferick 13:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
But I am removing it promptly for two reasons: original research: your source says nothing about "an extensive black economy has developed with significant organized crime and official corruption". That's your own conclusion. The source actually says: "Significant progress has been made in creating economic structures". Second reason: Your second source [UNMIK Police] is a 5 and a half year old press briefing (not a police report) being used to describe the current economic situation. Obviously this is ridicules and with no precedent and goes to show your highly biased view. Ferick 13:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Shut up, Ferick. -- KOCOBO 20:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I did. You have found a very reliable source indeed. It’s almost laughable. Tom Walker-among other things, has written: "Kosovo goes to hell", "CIA aided Kosovo guerrilla army", "Islamic Terror in Kosovo" (this last one he witnessed!).These titles speak enough about this "journalist”. Above all, it fails on verifiability. As the UN Administrator says: the accusations are “entirely unwarranted". Your true skin and purpose is becoming more evident every day. Ferick 22:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Then provide a reliable source. There is a difference between "concerns about the black economy" and the concrete conclusion you are are comming up with. Your main goal here appears to be: push your biased views using unverifiable and unreliable sources, dated data and mixing it up with your unsubstantiated conclusions. Not a recipe for success! I have every intention of amending your edits ( if you don't do so). Ferick 03:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I would refer contributors to the 2005 report of the UK House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee [21] and in particular to the sections of people trafficking and the economy. Choice quotes: "The FCO wrote in its submission on the subject: 'In the past five years, Kosovo has become a major destination and transit country for trafficked women and girls forced into prostitution'", "The International Organisation for Migration (IOM) wrote in a report in July 2004: 'Trafficking in women and girls is now the third source of income after arms and drugs for the Kosovar-Albanian mafia network'", "We heard in Pristina that the problems facing the economy are manifold. They include endemic corruption in the publicly owned enterprises (POEs), slow movement on the privatisation process by the UN authorities in New York for fear of legal challenges, and a corrupt and undeveloped judicial system. Professor Pettifer told us that 'economic crime is all pervasive, for three reasons. It is partly because of very high unemployment. Secondly it is because of where Kosovo lies: as a central point on the transnational route, particularly of heroin, from the East to Europe…Thirdly, there is a very anti-authoritarian political culture in the Kosovo-Albanian world which was built of years of resistance to regimes like that of Milosevic; co-operation with the police does not come easily.'" (JD)
For God's sake, I like to ask everybody to answer this question: in your reading about Kosovo, in which phrase have you come across most often:
1.Although de jure part of Serbia, since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations
2.Although it is de jure a territorial sub-unit of Serbia and internationally recognised as such, since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations
I have never seen the second one. If one has, please provide source-I like to see it. Ferick 14:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I did have objection to the Vojvodina reference as well as de jure confusion. And no, it's nor plagiarism-it's called a common expression. Ferick 16:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
In English there is a difference between a) common expression and b) common knowledge. Saying United States is a Democratic Republic is not considered plagiarism even if this same expression is found in 1000 other articles. The fact is that the U.S is a republic and this is the clearest way to say it in English. Ferick 19:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Legally and otherwise, Serbia has no control over the running of Legal Institutions in Kosovo. Are they involved in running illegal organization in Kosovo? No doubt about it. Ferick 16:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Ferick, I looked over you version again, and I see that you made more changes than I previously thought. The minor changes are not important (although I don't understand why the languages are dewikified, maybe that was added later). You removed a paragraph abouot the economy that was adequatly sourced, though once again that might have been added later, in any case I don't know its history. But then some of the interwikis are also messed up, look at the Bulgarian one. And I think you didn't close the ref tag, so that all of this history section got moved to the footnotes. Please do not revert but rather look at what you want to insert, and do it manually (ideally discussing the more controversial changes beforehand). TSO1D 21:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Copied from a section above: Panonian is correct to say that the legal status of Kosovo is not identical to that of Vojvodina. Each has different powers under the Serbian constitution, and Kosovo has (additionally) a set of provisional legal documents pending final status. The constitutional status of both Vojvodina and Kosovo is nevertheless the same: they are autonomous provinces of Serbia. The administrative status of each (and this is no doubt Panonian's point about armies and so forth) is, of course, radically different. And UNMIK in all this is only a means of delivering administration, not a constitutional factor in itself.
Panonian is right (in a way) in asserting that the de jure and de facto status of Kosovo are the same. De jure (UN Charter and UNSC 1244) Kosovo is a province of Serbia, and de facto Kosovo is a province of Serbia (under UN administration). I suppose you could argue that Kosovo is de facto an independent country, but any number of instances of UN power over the provisional institutions of self-government would show this view to be incorrect. You might argue that Kosovo is de facto a UN protectorate, but then the UN itself would tell you that Kosovo is (in fact) a province of Serbia under UN administration. Perhaps you could argue that Kosovo is de jure administered by Serbia but de facto administered by the UN, but even Serbia will tell you that it does not administer Kosovo and has abrogated (provisionally, pending final status) it's de jure rights to do so under the terms of UNSC 1244. So I think we should agree with Panonian on this and agree that, de jure and de facto, in constitutional terms, Kosovo is a province of Serbia.
As to Vojvodina, a casual reader would (in my opinion) be better equipped to understand the present status of Kosovo given the addtional information that Kosovo is one of two autonomous provinces of Serbia. Similar reference is made, for instance, in the Wikipedia articles on Wales ("Wales is one of four constituent countries of the United Kingdom") and Republika Srpska ("The Republika Srpska is one of the two political entities that together constitute the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the other entity being the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina."). Serbia is somewhat unusual in having a constitutional structure which gives some part of it's territory a federal structure whilst keeping the rest ('Serbia proper') unitary; we should make reference to this in giving context to Kosovo.
In reference to 'parallel structures' in Kosovo: these quite clearly exist, and in contradition of UNSC 1244 if you read it that way. But exist they do, with the Serbian government providing health care, education, pensions and so on to a significant minority of the population of Kosovo. Belgrade also has other, less visible influence over the administration of Kosovo: privatisation has made little progress because of the threat of legal challenge from Serbia and Serbian former owners of industries; the Serbian state electricity industry provides regular and emergency provision of electricity for Kosovo from Serbia proper; UNMIK and Serbia have to share the management of air traffic control over Kosovo (the relevant international body not recognising Kosovo as anything other than part of Serbia); UNMIK and Serbia discuss the provision of security in Serbian enclaves; Serbia and UNMIK agree the means of allowing Kosovo Serbs votes in the both Kosovo and Serbia electoral systems. UNMIK is in constant and detailed discussion with Belgrade on all elements of the adminsitration of Kosovo, as all elements touch the lives of that minority of the population of Kosovo which see Serbia as sovereign, and all elements of administration touch on the past and shared elements of that administration; it does not (quite sensibly, given the sort of response we see even here on Wikipedia) publicise the extent of these discussions. (JD)
The point is not that the parallel structures don't exist, but that the parallel structures (and the other measures you mention) do not constitute "direct governance." All of the measures you mention -- are, at best, indirect governance. Providing assitance or otherwise influencing events doesn't constitute "direct governance." If it did, then one could credible claim that the United States, EU, UK, or any other donor had a role in "direct governance." "Direct governance" implies a degree of legal legitimacy that Belgrade would like, but does not have. -- Envoy202 22:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Agree with your point, Envoy202, though I think I've responded to it elsewhere. We're describing direct 'involvement' in Kosovo not direct governance. Serbia has no direct role in governance, only the indirect sort which each UN member state has. The UK and US also have a direct involvement in Kosovo though this is a part of the broader 'international community' involvement whereas Serbia operates parallel structures and asserts influence over a substantial minority of the territory and population of Kosovo. We should make reference to this in the introduction. (JD)
I was wondering if there is a provision in wikipedia that exempts Serb users[ [22]] from the 3RR rule. Any help would be highly appreciated. Ferick 20:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I must have misunderstood the rule then-I thought 3RR meant 3 edits gets you blocked. Ferick 21:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
1. Why are you deleting the links to other articles (namely Albanian, Serbian, Serbia, Vojvodina, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro and Albanians) in the first paragraph? What possible problem could there be with inter-article links?
2) Why are you deleting Category:Disputed territories when it's universally acknowledged that Kosovo is, in fact, a disputed territory?
3) Why are you deleting interwiki links to the Albanian, Alsatian, Bulgarian, Latin, Polish and Slovenian versions of this article?
You haven't provided any explanation of your reverts other than that they're to "remove unreliable & unverifiable claims/sources" (which plainly can't apply to inter-article links, interwiki links or the category). What is your explanation for the three points above? -- ChrisO 07:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no clue what you are talking about. Ferick 12:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello, since this is a sensitive issue for all sides, I will not make changes myself. However, I propose we put this map from Commons in the article, if not at the top, then somewhere in the middle or bottom. It shows Kosovo's position in Serbia, and the municipalities that are in it. What do others think about this? -- GOD OF JUSTICE 01:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Please restore Kosovo map. There is no reason to remove it. Ferick 20:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Restore map or I will do so myself. Your reasoning is pathetic. Ferick 22:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, there are three maps right now-so I don't understand what you are talking about. The arguments is not how many maps,but which maps.22:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Its good to see this article has improved over the last period of time. There is one thing that is still really bugging me here, though. The external links section contains a pro-serbian and a pro-albanian section. Many of those sources are in Serbian or Albanian, so of little use to English Wikipedia users, the headings (pro-....) are inflammatory and the sources (as evidenced by their grouping in pro-.... sections) are probably not neutral or independent. My first hunch is to simply delete both sections and all the links in them, but I considered that too drastic to do without discussion. Another options is to mix all the external links together, keeping only the ones linking to english language site. Any other ideas on how we could deal with this? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 19:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I've asked for the article to be protected temporarily while we resolve once and for all the issue of the intro. I believe we have an unofficial broad consensus on the wording (except for Ferick, of course), but to demonstrate that, I'm proposing the following poll. Please state whether you support or oppose the proposals set out below, and it would be useful if you could provide your reasons as well. I'll keep the poll open for a few days and post a notification to Wikipedia:Current surveys.
Note: the poll is now closed as of 28 July 2006. See #Thanks - poll now closed below.
There are two questions to be decided:
Is this Belgrads Parliament???? No body from you are neutrale. I have talk with most from you and I know thate you are not neutrale. In fact you are part of the serbian propaganda incitive wicht it hase stardet since one year in "Sava Center", —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.178.10.219 ( talk • contribs) 24 July 2006
Cann somebody from you talle me a history of Kosovo since 1945. Wicht are the exte poit if since this time? You dont know hat was happen since 50 years and you wount to vote or omthing befor 100 years. This is my argument. You dont know how it cames to the War in 1999. You dont know how many times the serbs and kosovars have maked war since 1945? How I say this article is 100% serbian propagander witch is reasenting Kosovo as part of Serbia and every albanian user was bannet or his opinion was bloced from this usere administrator coorporation witch in fact is a part of the serbian propagander War to winn the media agains Kosovo indenpendent.
TUNG from Prishtina
upsss!!! In Kosovo wenn you wount to go in is writen "Welcommen Kosovo" this is the Realty and you cann vote and winn a media War witch was stardet in "Sava Center". I know is hard when you dont have monye for "New York Times" or BBC and you use this form to winn Media War. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.158.254.169 ( talk • contribs) 07:06, 25 July 2006
Thanks for everyone who contributed to this poll - we have a clear consensus in favour of both propositions. Reinoutr does have a good point though, so I've attempted to find a middle ground by modifying the infobox to match that of Vojvodina - showing the map of Kosovo next to some navigation links generated by the {{Serbia 2}} template. -- ChrisO 07:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
A poll determined by partisan reasons will have no bearing and no obligation. This is the second time you are doing this: Whenever you realize there are more active people that support your partisan view, you introduce a poll. This solves nothing- in two weeks the balance of power may change, and I can introduce the same poll and win it. When will the cycle stop? Polls do not determine facts. And for God’s sake stop protecting pages in which you are heavenly involved. What’s even worst, you protect pages when they are reverted to your preferred version. Very unethical behavior indeed! Ferick 20:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
That's funny- When I tried to edit it says you have been banned permanently because my nick name is "Kosovo"-apparently an inflammatory name. It also says my account has been used by Shareman.Production@Gmail.com. Since my account name is not Kosovo, I got confused and I thought the page was protected, but I guess I am the only one blocked from editing for some reason. Interesting….. Ferick 22:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
23:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure what’s going on either, but the message said that I was auto blocked because my user name “Kosovo” ( which is not my username) was an inflammatory name and needed to be changed. It also said something about my account being used by a certain Shareman.Production@Gmail.com. I am really puzzled, and of course I cannot pull the message again because the page has been blocked now for real. Ferick 02:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is more: Your user name or IP address has been blocked from editing. You were blocked by RadioKirk for the following reason (see our blocking policy): Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Rappy30V2". The reason given for Rappy30V2's block is: "vandal from 216.164.203.90". Your IP address is 64.xxx.xxx.xx. I am getting lost& i have no clue what is going on here........ Ferick 19:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
RadioKirk, I like to know why did you block me in wikipedia with no prove whatsoever? I never talked to you, don't know you & I have never crossed roads with you in Wiki and you block me because "I am a self admitted sock puppet". What evidence do you have for this sir? This is highly inflammatory accusation and I like an apology. You also said I send you an email? What on earth are you talking about? I have never send you an email- I have never crossed roads with you. Next time check your facts before you make these inflammatory accusation and block people. I have to go through all this hassle just because of your unprofessional behaviour. I am highly disappointed in wikipedia as a serious encyclopedia when people accuse you for something with no prove whatsoever. Are you a new administrator?
Last thing: I connect to the Internet via wireless network and my external IP address is 64.233.173.81 (This is a none static address ). If need be I can provide the internal IP address as well. Please unblock me ASAP.Ferick
How to do envisage including movies in the article? Besides that, the movies are clearly not from a neutral POV, so that makes them unsuitable. Also, the topic that they are about is already included in the article. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 10:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is Serbia? Just do it! make a place for the serbian propagander. Peace! Wikipedia it was and is now part of Serbia (propagander). Just do it! a copy from serbian wikipedia [23] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.178.10.219 ( talk • contribs) 24 July 2006
Cann sommebody check the administrator. The users accounts and the voten is exstrem serbian propagander. I dont need to talk about users souch als serbiana everybody who hase taket part at Kosovo Edit Wars in Wiki know him. He dont have right to vote for somthing about Kosovo after all thate what he hase don. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.178.10.219 ( talk • contribs) 24 July 2006
I don’t think anybody needs to worry about the outcome of this useless poll. Per reasons explain above, it will have no bearing on the article and no obligation on the users (to conform to the outcome of the poll). Ferick
Perhaps we could maintain a separate register of editors who have an interest in or knowledge of the topic and would like to be consulted in the event of a poll or such like? Or perhaps even go through the Talk pages and see if any of the former contributors would like to comment? (JD)
"But whatever the force of Serbian feeling or strength of its attachment to Kosovo, things have moved on. In the real world, Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia". [24] Interesting take............ Ferick 01:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
A comment to both: This is not about the real world or about confusion. It is about what is the prevailing view. This is just one journalist, but if the vast majority of reputable journalist sources (e.g. CNN, BBC) would talk about Kosovo like this, Wikipedia would have to follow that view (per WP:NOR and WP:RS). The question is not about what is real or what is true, but about what is verifiable (per WP:V). Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 10:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Contrary to your believe, the goal of any encyclopedia is to portray the real world (not a mythical or imaginary world). And if something is real, logic leads us to believe that it is verifiable. Of course the author is “mixing” things up- glad you are here to straighten everything up. What would we have done if it weren’t for you?
"[In reality] Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia, Kosovo will not be ruled by the Serbs, Serbia has lost its state integrity and all that should be explained to the people", Miodrag Vukovic, advisor to Montenegrian PM Milo Djukanovic [25]. Ferick 13:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
And if something is real, logic leads us to believe that it is verifiable. There is no such relation between reality and verifiability. There are many things that are neither real, nor verifiable (take for example the Wooglie Mooglie Monster I just made up). There are also a lot things that are verifiable, but not real (e.g. Homer Simpson) and similarly there are things that are real, but not verifiable (I could start an article about my rabbit Spoekie, but nobody could check whether he does exist). Finally, and luckily, there are many things that are both real and verifiable (there is a country called The Netherlands, for example). Because of WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOR of these only Homer Simpson and The Netherlands belong in Wikipedia, because they are verifiable.
Contrary to your statement the goal of any encyclopedia is to portray the real world, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. (direct quote from WP:V). Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Looks to me that you missed the philosophy classes in college. Your conclusion cannot be drawn from those premises. If you say you have a rabbit, and he actually exist (not because you say so, but he exists on his own), then he does exit and there is no need for someone to verify. To verify whether you are laying about having the rabbit, some needs to come there and see it. So, if someone wants to verify whether “In the real world, Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia” they need to go there and inspect its borders. Ferick 02:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Sure, experts and people who have been there can verify whether Kosovo, in reality, is no longer part of Serbia. However, I don’t count you as one of them. Ferick 02:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Ferick, editors must follow
Wikipedia's official policies and guidelines. Please read carefully
Wikipedia:Verifiability: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a
reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or
original research.
Therefore, as long as Spoekie's existence (or the current status of Kosovo being anything else than an autonomous province of Serbia) is not published by a reliable source, it's considered original thought or original research and can not be published in Wikipedia. Have a nice day. :-) -- Evv 12:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
That Kosovo, in the real world, is no longer part of Serbia has been published many times and can be verified as such. So I don’t know get what you are arguing against? I am all for verifiability and reliability. Ferick
Ferick, I don't see why this should be very difficult.
So what? That’s already in the paragraph. Most experts also know that in reality Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia, so this also should be put into the intro paragraph. Ferick 13:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Bingo!!!! Another word, Kosovo, in the real world, is no longer part of Serbia just as Taiwan is no part of China. Ferick 13:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see what it is that you object to. Do you want to describe Kosovo as an internationally recognized "independent" and "sovereign" state over which Serbia happens claims sovereignty? Osli73 12:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
No, not really. Merely that Kosovo is not part of Serbia in the real world. And, it’s not a matter of what I want- It’s a matterb of how it is. Ferick 13:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
It would be nice if you follow the discussion-That way you will know where the links are. Ferick 13:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, it’s not my problem if you cannot find them. It just shows that have not followed the discussion. I have no intention of directing every new user to what has been discussed and where the links are- don’t have time for that. Ferick 17:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Ferick, what do you mean by the Real World (wasn't the Real World the name of an MTV docusoap a decade ago)? Today the article intro says that Kosovo is a province of Serbia administered by the UN since 1999 and with considerable autonomy (or something to that effect). What is wrong with that description?
Osli73
13:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Nothing wrong with that-It’s just missing the most important part: “In the real world, Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia.” [
[26]
Real World MTV is a current program not a decade old program-what world are you living in? Bun in any case, "real world"(since you need an explanation fur such an obvious term) means "the practical world as opposed to the academic world" per dictionary.com Ferick 17:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
"We believe Kosovo is independent in many ways at this time" [27], Dimitrij Rupel-Slovenian Foreign Minister. Hmmmm......... Ferick 13:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Nobody is saying Kosovo is technically independent, but in reality it is- just like the foreign minister said. I am sorry-supporting Serbia's position? Not so much: "We have no objections to some sort of a conditioned independence"- I must have missed something. But in any case, this argument is not about the future status-so I don't know what you are arguing here! Ferick 14:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC) Ferick 14:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no intentions of repeating myself a hundred times. When the page is unblocked you will get a chance to see it.
Ferick
17:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Ferick, I suspect that you are ready to go ahead and unilaterally change the article to your own liking once the page is unlocked. Is that the case? If so, why are you unwilling to compromise with other editors?
Osli73
17:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Compromise? I am not sure what you have in mind, but I have no intention of compromising at the expense of distorting reality. If the goal of the compromise is to represent the situation on the ground as closely as possible to the actual reality, then that is acceptable. Ferick 18:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
When will you stop lying so bluntly? Everything I have said is backed up by reputable sources (read above). But I should not be surprised, as I have caught you many times lying and misrepresenting facts. Ferick 01:31, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Ferick, why do you insist on changing the intro? The current intro already says that Kosovo "is the subject of a long-running political and territorial dispute between the Serbian (and previously, the Yugoslav) government and Kosovo's Albanian population" and that it's administered by the UN "with little direct involvement from the Serbian government". What is it you object to? And, why can't you accept a clear consensus among the editors of the article (none of whom are Serbs, by the way)?
Osli73
02:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Same question to you! Ferick 04:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Of course, if Serbia had NO control over the status of Kosovo, it would be made independent immediately and without discussion. But it does have SOME control, as final status has to be the result of an agreement between the various parties (though with reference to the need for democratic self-government). The only authority here is international law and the agreement between the UN and the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (succeeded now by Serbia) in which, whilst respecting the territorial integrity of Serbia, administration of Kosovo is given to the UN and preparations are made for an agreement on final status. It might be worth noting somewhere (a section on the status negotiations?) that the position of Serbia has shifted decisively against independence for Kosovo; previously, parts of the Serbian government were willing to acquiesce in independence but not condone it, but all parts of the Serbian government are now seeking actively to resist independence. Given that the UN cannot undermine its own Charter (which protects territorial integrity), and as UNSC 1244 (and the Rambouillet Agreement) refer only to democratic self-government and substantial autonomy, the UN will find it impossible to impose independence; the presumption that indendence is the most likely outcome is beginning to slip and we should be covering some of these (pretty important!) discussions. (JD)
Can someone add a label/listing for Central Serbia or Serbia proper between those for Vojvodina and Kosovo? It seems to me that it would make the map much clearer, being that the map has three subdivisions and only two labels. Or if that is a problem, at least add an arrow showing where Vojvodina is. Right now it is pretty ambiguous (to the uninformed user).
-- Echalon 18:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the changes in the introduction to keep it concise, adequate for users who read only the introduction and not the article. Besides, a major unsourced change had been introduced:
I moved part of Envoy202's edit to the Politics section, without merging it with the previous text already there. However, i omitted restoring unsourced claims ( Contact Group countries declared in January 2006 that a future status settlement must be, inter alia, acceptable to the people of Kosovo and fully respect the rights of Kosovo's minorities) and a general perhaps unintentional pro-Albanian POV (per WP:NPOV#Undue weight).
I don't object to the facts themselves, but to the lack of sources and the wording: keep in mind that this is a rather controversial topic, making Verifiability and WP:NPOV indispensable. Regards :-) -- Evv 01:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Kosovo it was disputet teritory betwen Serbien Goverment and Kosovars. In the past it was called KSA Kosovo now is officel only Kosovo (in UN in Serbia Kosmet NOT IT! In Serbian Languege is Kosovo ). The Kosovars are "de facto" and "de juro" independen. Germany was independent since after secend Word War, but in this time it was controled from USA, UK, SSSR ect. Betwen Serbia and Kosovo is a Border like betwen Canada and USA. This is not only "de facto" but is "de juro", the same borders are with Macedonia, with Albanaia and Motenegro you can cross more easy, they wount "You in the Adriatic" ( Durrës, Ulqin...). This is "DE FACTO" and "DE JURO". {{Subst:unsigned|172.173.145.107|03:05, 30 July 2006}
Durres, I sorry to have to say that I have quite a hard time following your argumentation (a bit like the Hippi Zdrippi of old). However, as has been shown in clearly many times before on these talk pages, Kosovo is very much de jure still a part of Serbia - ie under Serbian sovereignty. This is what all nations and international organizations agree on. However, it is under temporary UN control. That is the legal status of the province. Osli73 19:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Per UNSCR 1244, Serbia is permitted no role in governing Kosovo. For example, its security personnel are not permitted in Kosovo, its laws do not apply, etc. While Kosovo remains legally part of Serbia, UNSCR 1244 gives UNMIK total authority to govern/administer Kosovo so long as the resolution is in effect. That should be reflected in the introduction. Envoy202 10:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Envoy202 is wrong on a number of points. Serbia security forces are permitted in Kosovo, and are in fact present, for the purposes agreed and outlined in Annex 2 of UNSC 1244; at present their numbers are restricted but UNMIK believes many more are present without UN authority, providing some security for Kosovo Serbs and supporting law and order in the majority Serbian areas. The laws of Serbia do apply to Kosovo, as all law in Kosovo is based on 1999 FRY law, though as amended by UNMIK since then (going into Kosovo and starting with a totally blank legal slate seemed a bit risky!) and without reference to present Serbian government or courts. UNMIK does not have total authority, only that given it in the agreement reached between the UN and the FRY (under duress, of course, but agreed nevertheless) as outlined in UNSC 1244 and elsewhere (e.g. the military techinical agreement); that authority gives UNMIK the power to create only certain provisional institutions and laws, subject to final status. As I've noted above, the 'soft' power Belgrade has to influence the administration of Kosovo is quite pervasive: privatisation in Kosovo is delayed over threat of Serbian legal claims, airspace must be administered by agreement, ballots of the Serbian minority (for Serbia or Kosovo elections) are carried out after discussion with Belgrade, and returns, security, the economy and crime are all discussed (and common approaches agreed) between Belgrade and UNMIK. Perhaps all this should be reflected in the introduction. (JD)
As he has indicated on these talk pages before, Ferick has now started to unilaterally make controversial edits to the introduction. I'm not sure how this should be dealt with. It would be preferably if a protection of the article could be avoided. Osli73 20:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I feel that the article intro is becoming too long again as various aspects are specified. For example, much of the text on the ongoing independence negotiations could be moved to a separate section in the Politics section.
Remember, the introduction should be a short summary of the main text. Osli73 13:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
To make things more informative to editors who not do not regularly edit this article, I have moved the large infobox to a separate template page: Template:Kosovo-InfoBox and transcluded it in the article.
In addition, I have added a warning (only visible when editing) that major changes to the introduction would be better discussed here first. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
As discussed, I have added a section on the Kosovo future status process. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to look up citations for everything in this section, but I'm confident all assertions can be verified through either a web search or some other minimal digging. In fact, I'd be grateful if people could help me add some citations and links -- UNOSEK has a decent website, plus there have been lots of media articles over the last year about the status process. Because the Kosovo issue and the status process will heat up in the fall, I think there is merit in having an ample and accurate section on what's going on. -- Envoy202 15:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I concur with Envoy202's suggestion. I too am a former diplomat, having worked in Belgrade and Kosovo. The section on final status is sufficient for present purposes, though gives little weight to the requirement in international law that Belgrade must agree to any change to the status of Kosovo; UNMIK likes to claim otherwise, but this clear fact (see UN Charter, Article 2) needs to be underlined or the reader might give too much weight to the generally accepted opinion. This opinion was based on the former state of affairs that opinion amongst politicians in Belgrade was divided as to wether or not independence could be resisted; opinion has shifted decisively towards resisting indepence, as is clear from Belgrade press (see Politika or NIN for a relatively balanced view). We should note that UNSC 1244 and Rambouillet refer only to substational autonomy and democratic self-government. We should note that UNMIK have nevertheless done little to disabuse the Kosovo Albanian political class of their belief that independence is inevitable, and that all observers of Kosovo have identified a growing trend of physical attacks on the international community on the part of (organised or disorganised?) Kosovo Albanians. Looking forward to seeing these elements in the review of the status process, or else we end up with a summary of UNMIK press releases... (JD)
JD, it is true that Belgrade opposes Kosovo's independence and will likely cite international law (UN Charter, Helsinki Final Act) to bolster its position. This not change the fact that independence is still considered by almost all experts and almost all international diplomats to be the most likely outcome. That fact is easily verifiable.
You're right to note the disturbing shift in the wind in Belgrade, which has been deeply troubling to many of Serbia's international friends. Perhaps that could be usefully pointed out.
I guess I'd advise against too much independent analysis on the Kosovo future status process, including independent legal assessments. I think a "just the facts, ma'am" approach to the status process is best. As you well know, international law is a squishy thing and will be cited by any party that thinks it can score a debating point.
You note a "growing trend of physical attacks" agains the IC. Which events are you referring to? I am not aware of any serious incidents in recent months. In fact, my understanding is that overall violence and Potentially Ethnically Motivated Incidents are actually down in 2006. Some have ascribed this decrease to K-Albanian extremists being told to be on "good behavior" so long as international events seem to be moving inexorably towards independence. -- Envoy202 22:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
-- Envoy202 14:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC
Kosovo has oven ekonomy, politic, borders, police, president, ..... , Kosovo is traing to be regotnesed from Serbia in demotratic way (This is for the future ekonomy of Serbia and Kosovo importen). If Serbia n politicans dont have there folk under cotroll we dont need to sacrife Kosovo about thate. Kosovo has traid more thate 6 years to give them a chance to comme back to Europen family and at the end to make a bilance with demege from Milosevic. This big problem in Serbia, is a same think with somme Rusian peopel witch think thate the Sovjet Union is super power and Coca-Cola is Rusian product beacose in the back side of the bothel is etiket with "Made in Rusia". - Hipi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.173.212.154 ( talk • contribs) 23:08, 3 August 2006
-- Envoy202 01:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
You know, this intro presents such a big target. It will inspire editing mischief so long as it 1) uses politically-loaded terms like "province," 2) emphasizes (rather than simply notes) that Kosovo is part of Serbia and 3) does not mention the transitional UN administration in the first sentence. While I agree that the first paragraph is not the place for getting into the finer details of UNSCR 1244, A more balanced, factual opening will attract less attention and be less liable to be edited by those with ethnic axes olor="#006600">contribs]]) 16:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Reinoutr's language is perfect.
I guess it's an question of where to hold the line. I agree you absolutely have to mention that Kosovo is legally a part of Serbia. This is clearly a fact and we should push back vigorously on those who seek to take out that section. That being said, I believe the best path forward is to avoid provocative language. Why have language that hypes or overemphasizes the Serbian line that "Kosovo is part of Serbia"? The reality is that UNSCR establishes a complicated reality (including by its provisions calling for a political process to determine Kosovo's future status) and to simply say "Kosovo is a province of Serbia" is misleading and implies that its governance is roughly analogous to Vojvodina. Therefore, why minimize the fact that Kosovo is under transitional UN adminsitration (currently it's several paragraphs into the intro)? Let's stick to a short, factual, balanced opening sentence -- nobody will ever be happy, but it's a step in the right direction!
And I have to restate my belief that the loaded term "province" is provocative/biased/inaccurate -- it's like waving a red flag (perhaps the Albanian flag?) to a bull! Last week in Vienna I was struck by how the entire Serbian delegation made it a point to use that word repeatedly, knowing that it would goad the Kosovars. No international ever used the term, certainly not Ahtisaari (you can check the transcript of his press conference). Elsewhere I pointed out that you will not find the term "province" in any Contact Group statement or UNSC PRST of the last year. I think it's better to cite current international diplomatic usage instead of a handful of outdated reference books or, even worse, lazy journalists (!). Furthermore, Belgrade's use of the term as a polemic device -- something that really kicked into overdrive this year -- is making the term ever more problematic by the day (this isn't capture in five year-old reference materials). Plus, there are a thousand ways to refer to Kosovo without using saying "province" ("place," "region," "territory," "international protectorate," "land," etc.). -- Envoy202 17:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
You guys make some good points.
First, however, I do not agree that Kosovo is legally/technically a "province" of Serbia. Merriam-Webster defines a province as "an administrative district or division of a country." Per UNSCR 1244, Serbia's laws -- including its administrative divisions -- are no longer valid. UNSCR 1244 reaffirmed the territorial integrity of the FRY (meaning Kosovo *is* legally/technically part of Serbia), but it did not reaffirm Serbia's internal administrative divisions. This is the standard interpretation among international diplomats and most experts -- this is why the term is generally not used in technical documents (for example, UNSCR 1244 itself!). Yes, TSO1D, diplomats often do use purposefully vague language (very good point!), but I'm arguing here that international diplomats/experts generally avoid the term because of their deeper understanding of the exact legal context. When it is used, it is generally because either 1) someone doesn't understand the situation fully or 2) there is an attempt to use the term to score a political point (as Belgrade does).
My only recommendation is to follow sources like the U.S. Department of State or, barring that, Contact Group usage, or, barring that, usage from senior international figures involved in the Kosovo issues (e.g., Ahtisaari). To merely cite old reference books seems inadequate.
As a final point, I think the burden of proof is on the person who believes the word "province" should be included, particularly when other words can be used without sacrificing accuracy. What is the value added of including a word on which there is genuine disagreement and contradictory patterns of usage, especially when that word invites so much mischief, is considered provocative and has a history of being used as a polemic device? -- Envoy202 18:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Some examples: I made a modest attempt to change the Kosovo info box here [28], but they keep changing it [29] to make sure the user gets an impression that Kosovo is part of Serbia more than nominally [30].
And, here is what I proposed for the introduction, but they kept reverting it because “it is not accurate”:
Kosovo (Albanian: Kosovë/Kosova, Serbian: Косово и Метохија/Kosovo i Metohija) is a disputed province in Serbia. It is located in the south of the country, bordering Albania, Macedonia and Montenegro. The mountainous province's capital and largest city is Prishtinë/Priština. Kosovo has a population of around two million people, predominately ethnic Albanians, with smaller populations of Serbs, Turks, Bosniaks and other ethnic groups.The province is the subject of a long-running political and territorial dispute between the Serbian (and previously, the Yugoslav) government and Kosovo's Albanian population. The province is de jure part of Serbia, but in reality it functions independently of the Slavic state. Since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 Kosovo has been administered and governed by the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) and the democratically elected Provisional Institutions of Self-Government. Security is maintained by the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR) and Kosovo Police Service. International negotiations began in 2006 to determine the final status of Kosovo; it is widely expected that the talks will lead to some form of independence.
Draw your own concussions: Do you think this opinion is somehow pro Albanian? Hardly! Yet, there is been a revert war for this because, in their eyes, it is way too pro Albanian and somehow reduces the Serbia claim to Kosovo.
There are virtually hundreds of other instances where these editors have refused to allow being included in articles anything that may reduce the Serbian claim to Kosovo or may portray them in bad light.
Here is the sad part: these editors have a very limited knowledge about Kosovo. Based on what I have been able to observe, they use search engines to learn trivial things about the region. Not trying to be condescending, but it’s a fact.
Another thing should be pointed out that some of these editors (including an administrator) have lied in numerous cases by accusing me, i.e. “Albanian editors” (I have been the only serious editor in the last couple of months to represent a non Serbia view) of refusing to acknowledge that Kosovo is part of Serbia nominally. I have never done such a thing, but of course they can care less (see discussion above).
Normally it is good to assume good faith when dealing with other editors, but once you know them for a while, you would be foolish to do such a thing. Why? Because you will waste your time. They have a clear agenda: make the article as close as possible to how a Serbia government official would have written it. Their strategy: gather as many like minded editors as possible to agree with them and declare consensus (see history). In other cases a like minded administrator (heavenly involved in the Kosovo page editing) would set the page to his liking and block it from further editing violating wikipedia ethical standards.
Of course this will lead nowhere as I have no intention of allowing their Wikiality to be represented as if it is an actual reality. The result of this all is a constant edit war.
It is close to impossible to reason with these editors (they will not accept anything that they perceive as being anti Serbian), but maybe you will be able to reason with them from a different corner. I suspect it won’t happen, but as they say: the proof is in the pudding. We shall see! (Didn’t mean to welcome you to wikipedia this way, but had to give you heads up so you don’t have to waste your time). Good luck. Ferick 03:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Guys, how about something like:
Kosovo is province in southern Serbia. While it is legally a part of Serbia it is administered by the United Nations since the end of the 1999 Kosovo War.
We have to call it something, saying that it is a "territory" or "area" is stretching it a bit. Osli73 19:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Hrm...what you propose is vastly superior to what is there now. I still object to "province," but how about saying "international protectorate" (as in the formulation below)?
"Kosovo is an international protectorate located in southern Serbia. While it is still legally a part of Serbia, Kosovo has been administered by the United Nations since the end of the 1999 Kosovo War."
-- Envoy202 19:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Envoy, well, technically Kosovo is a province, which is why all encyclopedias call it that (I wouldn't say they are outdated, since they all are published after 1999). How can this be controversial? I'm OK with taking out the reference to Vojvodina though, since it's not really comparable to Kosovo. If you want, we don't have to refer to it as a "province" thereafter, we'll just say "Kosovo" instead.
Osli73
19:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Kieran, UNSCR 1244 reiterates Serbias sovereignty over Kosovo, ie no change in its official status. All that UNSCR 1244 stated was that Kosovo would be administered by the UN until a final solution could be worked out. So, from an technical legal perspective, Kosovo is a province of Serbia. This is also why all governments and encyclopedias define Kosovo as "a province of Serbia under UN administration" (or something to that effect). Of course, you can have a different interpretation of UNSCR 1244, but that doesn't change the fact.
All this was discussed back in May-June.
Finally, I don't believe we can or should accomodate the nationalist sensitivities. Otherwise, where would that lead us here on Wikipedia. If I was a Serb I could claim that statements about ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo during the 1999 war should be shrouded in some other language, or that the Srebrenica massacre should be called "incident" and that no reference should be made to the term "genocide" since that is used to allude that Serbs somehow are comparable to Nazis. And so on. Let's just tell it like it is. Osli73 20:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I quite like the wording that Envoy202 proposes, but I would suggest saying that "Kosovo, while still legally a province of Serbia, is an international protectorate that has been under United Nations administration since 1999" to reflect our sources more accurately. Whether we like it or not, Wikipedia policy mandates that we have to use the terminology that our sources use (see WP:V and WP:RS). Wikipedia:Verifiability specifically states that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth."
The fact of the matter is that our sources almost unanimously call Kosovo a "province" (1,300 uses of the term in the media in the last 3 weeks alone! [31]). Envoy may well be right in stating that the term deliberately isn't used among international diplomats and most experts, but unless we have a source that says this explicitly we can't accept it as the basis for the introduction. WP:NOR specifically excludes "an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position". Envoy hasn't provided any source for his argument; I don't disagree with it, but without a source we can't use it. Can you provide a source, Envoy?
As for the introduction providing "too big a target", unfortunately we have at least two abusive users editing this article in violation of multiple Wikipedia policies - the problem is not the introduction but their deliberate refusal to abide by the most basic policies of Wikipedia. The term "province" may be loaded to them but it's only "loaded" in the same way that, for instance, "evolution" is a loaded term for creationists - it may offend their POV but it's verifiable from an overwhelming majority of reliable sources. Their position is essentially that every major encyclopedia and news organisation is wrong. Note WP:NOR: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." -- ChrisO 10:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I've decided to be a bit bold and change the intro to the last suggestion by Osli73, which appears to be at least midly acceptable to most here. It still includes the word province, but makes a clear statement on the UN administration. In addition, I moved Vodvjina to the Geography section. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 10:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Reinoutr, I think it looks fine - concise and neutral in tone. Only thing I would want to change is the second paragraph text: "Kosovo has been under Serbian sovereignty since 1912 but since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations with little direct involvement from the Serbian government." Since we already state that it is administered by the UN in the first paragraph, no need to have that info. in the second paragraph. Better to talk about the ongoing Contact Group negotiations instead, since that is what a lot of readers (I imagine) will be interested in.
Osli73
11:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'm not going to fall on my sword over the word "province." I think the intro looks much, much better now. I'm pleased!-- Envoy202 22:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
There's no doubt that there are conflicting views with regards to this Article between different camps. However what really surprises me is how some people have developed their own stubborn versions of "reality" and tend to guard at any cost.
Lots of editors that have contributed have used Encyclopaedias as "reliable" sources to describe Kosovo, although it is very obvious that Encyclopaedias are outdated and do not reflect the present reality on the ground. Prior to the 1999 war, I would have agreed 100% with the views expressed by ChrisO and Osli73 on the status of the province, however the reality on the ground and the inevitable course towards independence (widely expected by the end of this year) make the whole article look somewhat short-sighted and quite misleading.
As discussed above, Kosovo had been taken out of Serbia's sovereignty following the 1999 war, and that is a fact. On paper it remains a part of FRY as per 1244 resolution, however there's no mention of it being part of Serbia, and it does not explicitly NOR implicitly mention that should the FRY disintegrate, the territory of Kosovo considered as a part of Serbia.
The cynics would say that the recent adoption of "the continuity" of the defunct S&M state by Serbia, is a deliberate political act to cover the hole in the 1244 Resolution which mentions Kosovo as a province of FRY. This of course may not be true, however it highlights the sensitivity and the complexity of the current status-quo, where every little detail is seen as potentially influential political message.
What people need to realise is that Kosovo is only just legally of Serbia (although this statement can easily be discredited depending on the interpretation of 1244 and the reality on the ground). The reality is that it is governed by an international community and will soon inevitably achieve some sort of independence.
Saying that Kosovo is a southern province of Serbia, is highly political, this is why no western diplomat ever uses the terminology. I would suggest we remove all such references in the introduction and instead adopt a more realistic objective approach instead of the current rigid-cum-legalistic approach, that serves no purpose to a neutral reader.
Perhaps something along these lines: "Kosovo is an autonomous province, whose final legal status will be known by the end of the year. Although legally still part of Serbia, it has been an international protectorate since 1999. It is governed by the United Nations and the locally elected government".
And I also agree with one of the anon users argument that the the Kosovo Info box is very offensive to Kosovans because it shows Kosovo within Serbia. This should be changed as soon as possible, becasue in all fairness this article is about "Kosovo" and not "Kosovo in Serbia". It is highly political and unnecesary.
tonycdp 22:30, 6 August 2006 (GMT)
Tonycdp,
Thank you for making some good comments on this very controversial topic. Some comments below:
Finally, what it all comes down to is that all other encyclopedias describe Kosovo as a disputed province in southern Serbia administered by the UN (or something to that effect), so why shouldn't Wikipedia?
Cheers Osli73 22:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
At the end of the day, I'm sure that if you tried as hard you would find lots of official sites with a picture of Kosovo on its own. Whats wrong with putting something like http://www.axisglobe.com/Image/2005/11/16/Kosovo/2-Kosovo-map.gif
You can still see a thinner border with Serbia which indicates that it is still somehow linked to Serbia (to reflect the current legal status), but it zooms into Kosovo. The map of Serbia in a Kosovo entry is political. I'm sorry but it is, and it appears as if you are intentionally trying to find an excuse to insult the Albanians and provoke vigilante edits whilst you still can, because by the end of the year you will have run out of reasons to do it.
Osli73 please don't insult my intelligence with petty arguments, please!! Tonycdp 00:20, 7 August 2006 (GMT)
Tonycdp,
Cheers, Osli73 23:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it worth stating quite clearly that the legal status of Kosovo is not 'international protectorate'. No such status exists in international law (and has not done since after the First World War). It is a province of Serbia administered the UN by agreement with the then-FRY, as part of the ceasefire agreement with NATO, as outlined in UNSC 1244. This is the status of Kosovo in international law. Nor is Kosovo anything but a 'province' of Serbia - UNSC 1244 gives certain but limited powers to the UN and to UNMIK in relation to Kosovo; changing the status of Kosovo is not among them. In strictly technical terms the formal title of Kosovo is still the Autonomna Pokrajina Kosovo i Metohija, whether it is administered by the UN or not; I think we can all agree that we need not go so far as to emphasise this reality, but simply and succinctly to note that Kosovo is a province of Serbia under UN administration.
This being a dictionary, we need to present the facts. Diplomats are free to present a more nuanced viewpoint, and need to do so to play the role of neutral arbiter, but we would be descending to the level of amateur journalism if we pretended that Kosovo was anything other than a province of Serbia, administered by the UN in agreement with Serbia until such time as final status has been determined. These facts have indeed been underplayed by the international community of late. Have they been underplayed: a) because they are no longer true; b) because the interational community seeks to play the role of neutral arbiter; or c) because the international community fears the consequences for the physical security of its presence in Kosovo? I think I favour b), though c) is likely in their thinking, whilst a) is clearly not the case, nothing having changed the status of Kosovo since UNSC 1244.
This is a dictionary and record of verifiable facts, not a means to present the cosiest view of hard facts, nor to take 'an opportunity to remove one tiny element of controversy' as Envoy202 would have us do - the controversy exists, it is our job to present the facts of it, not think we can use a dictionary to change those facts (unless perhaps you have a 1984 outlook on things); much is done in this article to avoid causing offence to Kosovo Albanian opinion, and the reference to continued Serbian sovereignty occurs only in the rightful place; this dictionary has a duty to inform.
Envoy202 is also wrong to say that the status of Kosovo is a 'complicated reality'. The administration of Kosovo and the prospects for final status are complicated: the status of Kosovo is not. It has the same constitutional status as Vojvodina but very different administration. Nor should we avoid stating this fact simply because (in Envoy202's view) the Serbian position is that 'Kosovo is part of Serbia'. This is not the entire Serbian position; the (generalised) Serbian position is that 'Kosovo is and should remain part of Serbia despite the wishes of the majority of the population'. They are right in that it IS still part of Serbia but (arguably) wrong that it SHOULD REMAIN part of Serbia despite the majority wish. Belgrade have their position and desired outcome and so use particular language (rightly or wrongly, with more or less emphasis than is warranted); but so to does the United States in seeking the outcome it desires; as an official of that Government, Envoy202 will be more than aware that the US will seek to underplay the relationship between Serbia and Kosovo in order to achieve the preferred US outcome of independence.
Interesting also that Envoy202 feels that the Serbian side used the term province in reference to Kosovo, 'knowing that it would goad the Kosovars', when his report of the final status negotiations makes no qualification to the statement that, 'Ahtisaari later told the press ... that the parties generally listened respectfully to each other's position'. We need to avoid presenting the final status negotiations as a happy and congenial progression to inevitable independence, which is not the reality of the talks between Belgrade and Pristina. Again, we would do well not to use the language which any particular party in the discussions would prefer, but to present the discussions as neutrally as possible.
Not using a map of the whole of Serbia, identifying the position of Kosovo within it, would fly in the face of standard Wikipedia practice and mislead readers with the sole purpose of presenting an incorrect state of affairs to affoid offending a particular group of people. Did we separate East Timor from Indonesia whilst the UN was in charge? Do we show a map of only the northern half of Cyprus for the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus? What about Lebanon? (JD)
Dear Osli,
With regards to your second point, well, in the end you said what I would have ultimately told to you = “Kosovo is extremely unlikely to come under Serbia's de-facto rule again”. The fate was decided the day NATO decided to go into a war against Serbia to prevent an occurring “genocide”. Now I put the word ‘genocide’ in quotes to save you the trouble of giving me another lesson. Proving genocide legally is very difficult, I know that, but most mass media at the time did refer to it as genocide.
Now that we have come to that, you have drawn all sorts of parallels comparing Kosovo to Catalonia, Northern Cyprus, Republika Srpska, Scotland, Wales and etc etc.
1. One thing that sets Kosovo apart from all these regions is that the western forces had to intervene to forcefully take Kosovo out of FRY’s control because of the dreadful policies of ethnic cleansing employed by Serbia.
2. As you have noted yourself, Kosovo is due some form of international political recognition that would formally detach it legally from Serbia. None of the other regions are, nor have the support of the international community.
3. Republika Srpska never existed as a separate entity in the former SFRJ, and as such was not an equal constituent of the former Yugoslavia. More so, it was carved out as a result of ethnic cleansing.
4. If Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Catalonia wanted independence and voted for it democratically, I don’t think anyone in the democratic world would oppose it. In reality, although all these countries have strong national identities they are more or less happy to be where they are. Kosovo has suffered 13.000 casualties and is not happy being in Serbia, in fact it hates it so much that should the international community fail to recognise their right to self determination, it would happily explode into another war. This is why Kosovo is different from all these regions, and to treat it the same is patronizing and petty
We all know what the current legal status is and that it is on a ‘death-row’, due to be finished off by a lethal Security Council injection; Readers should know about it. I suggested a neutral introduction to the subject in my earlier post:
"Kosovo is an autonomous province, whose final legal status is expected to be resolved by the end of this year. Although legally still part of Serbia, it has been an international protectorate since 1999. It is governed by the United Nations and the locally elected government".
What is wrong with this, status is mentioned but with references to the inevitable status definition by the end of the year.
Tonycdp 21:06, 7 August 2006 (GMT)
Wow...there are a bunch of smart people on here! I've been quite impressed with the level of knowledge and the quality of discourse.
So back to the "province" debacle --
So I did a straw poll among friends who have lived/worked in Kosovo or are working on the future status process. I will gladly concede that there was a genuine disagreement about whether it was accurate to use the term "province." Some argued (as was done here) that this was its status under the FRY and will remain so until that status is decided. Others argued (as did I) that this administrative status was superseded by UNSCR 1244. Others argued that the legal/adminsitrative situation was ambiguous and that therefore the term should be avoided because it has become associated with those peddling a particular point of view (namely, the Serb perspective). I think this latter stance best reflects what I've come to believe.
I still find it odd to cite various reference documents / dictionaries to "prove" that Province is the right term -- we're talking about a fast-moving and legally-complex issue that isn't captured in such documents. Here's an interesting question: What will history books call Kosovo's status in this interim, the period between UNSCR 1244 and resolution of status? They'll probably fudge and use some less-than-perfect term like "international protectorate."
I did want to clarify a point: I didn't mean to come on so strongly saying the term should be avoided simply because it is controversial. That would be a disservice to truth, I admit! My point -- as it has evolved -- is more subtle. I'm arguing that since Kosovo's status is somewhat ambiguous (by design!) a term should not be used that is associated with one POV. Remember, UNSCR 1244, like any great diplomatic document, had all sorts of built-in contradictions. On the one hand, it temporarly suspended Serb exercise of sovereign rights over the territory of Kosovo. On the other hand, it envisioned the limited reintroduction of Serb security personnel into Kosovo, something that UNMIK/KFOR have never seriously contemplated. So ambiguity reigns.
JD wrote that the "official" name of Kosovo is the "Autonomna Pokrajina Kosovo i Metohija." I am assuming that is from the Serbian constitution? I think a better source should be the Constitutional Framework for Provisional Self-Government, which is the current source of law in Kosovo. It can be found here: Constitutional Framework
Here is how the CF describes Kosovo:
1.1 Kosovo is an entity under interim international administration which, with its people, has unique historical, legal, cultural and linguistic attributes. 1.2 Kosovo is an undivided territory throughout which the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government established by this Constitutional Framework for Provisional Self-Government (Constitutional Framework) shall exercise their responsibilities.
So when confronted with two documents -- the Serbian Constitution and the Kosovo Constitutional Framework -- which of the two carries more legal weight in Kosovo today? I think the answer is clear: the CF. Pointedly, the word "province" never appears in the document. Saying it's a province, complete with all the legal/administrative status provided under the Serbian constitution, still strikes me as misleading since the Serbian constitution is not in effect in Kosovo. And relying on Belgrade to be the arbiter of truth is just about as unwise as relying on Pristina!
Furthermore, I still think it's extremely odd to mention Vojvodina in the same first sentence. While the terms used to describe them in the current Serbian constitution (which, again to note, has no legal weight in Kosovo today) may be the same, it's misleading to group them together now. Even Belgrade acknowledges a difference -- the Belgrade negotiating platform proposes a radically different constitutional status for Kosovo than Vojvodina.
And, for the record, neither the United States nor any Contact Group country has yet stated a preferred outcome to the Kosovo future status process.
-- Envoy202 21:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Envoy202 has made a fair point. The CF is internationally accepted, and its contents should be used to complement the introduction. There are no interpretaions in the facts presented above, I believe they are clear-cut.
-- Tonycdp
Oh no no no matey. You’ve got it all wrong. Constitutional Framework needs no interpretation whatsoever, it is Clear-Cut, and it states exactly what Kosovo is and how it should be governed. It is you that is drawing assumptions from it.
The sentence you’ve uttered: “Is generally interpreted as…” is what qualifies you as an ‘Original Researcher’.
Giving us all the b******t about whether primary or secondary sources should be used is very cheeky. I would support your argument if the description was ambiguous in the slightest, but it isn’t.
Whether the wording in the CF was influenced by the fear of annoying Albanians or not is irrelevant in this case, because that Framework is set in stone (albeit only until the end of this year) and is accepted by the highest international body, the good old mother UN.
-- Tonycdp
I'll admit to not knowing the finer points of Wikipedia theology. If primary sources don't make the cut, then so be it. I guess what's bugging me is that it will always be easier to find documents/research/media reports that use the term "province," but it's harder to prove that an equally significant number of reports (most more reliable and better informed) do not use the term. That's why I suggested that the burden of proof on this issue should be on those who insist using it, especially when other terms could be used without sacrificing accuracy.
Futhermore, it strikes me that if there is inconsistent usage -- and the fact that we, a bunch of smart people, are having this vigorous chat proves there is -- then what should be the authoratative tie-breaker? How about the foundational law of Kosovo, i.e., the Constitutional Framework. The CF does not use the term. How about UNSCR 1244, the undisputed source of Kosovo's current legal status? UNSCR 1244 does not use the term either. How about diplomats, the people working every day on the issues? No, they generally avoid the term and it appears in no major Contact Group statement. So who is left? Only the following "authoritative" sources: a few random journalists (often lazy!), a number of refererence books (most not regularly updated or else very superficial), and Belgrade politicians.
That being said, I have pledged not to fall on my sword on this one. My only priorities are that the intro immediately, and preferably in the first sentence, note two things: 1) Kosovo is technically de jure part of Serbia, and 2) Kosovo is under transitional UN administration pending a determination of its status. I'd note, however, that so long as people insist on using the word dubious word "province," there will be legitimate criticism that the article is both inaccurate and reflects a certain POV. Fortunately, this whole issue will be moot when status is finally resolved!
For what it's worth, I have also really enjoyed this discussion. I've worked Balkans issues since the war in 1999 and am always fascinated by the emotions that can be generated by these discussions. -- Envoy202 01:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Evv makes a good point about using our own interpretations, though clearly we're putting in a sight more analysis than virtually any other source! I also agree wholeheartedly with Evv in his analysis of how we should be presenting this issue. The facts of the present status of Kosovo are neither complicated nor fast-moving, nor do they require the fudged language presently used by the international community.
Neither the Constitutional Framework nor UNSC 1244 are the 'founding law' in Kosovo. The primary source for the constitution and law of Kosovo remains that of Serbia, underlined by the Charter of the UN (chapter I, article 2 [33]). UNSC 1244 is an agreement between the then-FRY (and it's successor state, the Republic of Serbia) and the UN to suspened (as Envoy202 has pointed out) Serbia's <exercise> of her sovereign rights. Nothing in UNSC 1244 changes the legal or constitutional status of Kosovo, nor is the applicability of Serbian law removed; powers are given in 1244 for the administration of Kosovo, including provisional institutions of self-government (PISG). Any laws created by either UNMIK or the PISG are a) provisional of final status and b) additional to Serbian law: if I were to commit a crime in Kosovo which had not been legislated upon by UNMIK or the PISG I would be tried, as many are, under the laws of Serbia as they existed in 1999. More specifically, the constitutional framework is not a constitution for Kosovo, a founding law, but an agreement between UNMIK, Belgrade and the political parties in Kosovo on how to set up and run the provisional institutions; it can be overriden by the SRSG [34] in reference to UNSC 1244 or to Serbian law as unmodified by laws backed by 1244. UNMIK and the UN under its own charter has not the authority to alter the constitutional status of Kosovo or to alter Serbian constitutional law beyond that either a) necessary for the proper administration of Kosovo, in line with the responsibilities laid out in 1244 or b) that achieved by prior agreement with Belgrade. This is not interpretation: Regulation 1999/1 [35], the first legal act of the UN administration, states:
Section 3 APPLICABLE LAW IN KOSOVO
The laws applicable in the territory of Kosovo prior to 24 March 1999 shall continue to apply in Kosovo insofar as they do not conflict with standards referred to in section 2, the fulfillment of the mandate given to UNMIK under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 (1999), or the present or any other regulation issued by UNMIK.
This regulation is clarified and succeeded by those of 1999/24 [36] and 2000/59 [37], each making reference to the source of all power of the SRSG to make these regulations being, "pursuant to the authority given to him under United Nations Security Council resolution 1244 (1999) of 10 June 1999".
UNMIK regulations or constitutional frameworks are not basic law in Kosovo, but provisional modifications of Serbian law, valid to the extent that they conform with the UN Charter and the powers given UNMIK in 1244. This is not relying on a Belgrade interpretation or a Pristina interpretation, but on the fundamentals of both the UN Charter and the Serbian law on which all law in Kosovo must be based (with provisional amendments made by the SRSG under the authroity of 1244). The constitutional framework agreed between UNMIK and Belgrade is not a constitution and the UN has no power to make it so. If anyone can provide a more coherent, verifiable outline of the position of law in Kosovo, I look forward to hearing it.
To address Tonycdp's points, which are important: 1. The consitutional status of <all> of those territories is the direct result of military intervention, including that of Scotland. 2. Kosovo has not been offered indepedence by any international body; the UN Charter (Article 2) prevents it from doing so and UNSC1244 offers only "substantial autonomy and meaningful self-administration". Interesting you think that (say) Scotland is due no form of international recognition. 3. Republika Srpska did not exist at the time of the SFRJ, but neither was Kosovo a republic of the SFRJ, just an administrative subdivision of Serbia and the creation of Tito. Interesting that you see the politics of the communist Yugoslavia as most relevant to the status of Kosovo. Kosovo, as much as the RS, has been shaped by enthnic cleansing by both sides. 4. Scotland and Wales could easily seceed from the United Kingdom, and have voted not to do so. Catalonia and Northern Ireland, however, might vote to do so now or at some point in the future, but the rights of the majority community to self-determination would be modified by their present states and the international community: Northern Ireland would not be 'allowed' independence were it not to protect the security and rights of minority communities living there, and would almost certainly be the subject of a negotiated settlement, based on the weight of the international community, which prevented it from joining the Republic of Ireland, again to secure the rights of what might then be a minority Protestant community. The parallel with Kosovo would be the same: Kosovo has not proved itself capable [38], even with UN administration, of protecting minority communities and so the right to self-determination is restricted, as is clear in the UNMIK policy of 'Standards before Status'.
Further, we may not pick and choose the administrative boundaries which are permitted self-determiniation: the AP Kosovo i Metohija is a construct of Tito's Yugoslavia, the Republika Srpska that of present-day BiH; if either wished, democratically, to seceed, we may only limit that right by reference to other basic human rights; we may not pick and choose these boundaries to suit our cause. If Kosovo looks to be set to gain independence, then their is a good chance that the RS will demand the same and the intnational community might look to mitigate than proposed independence (which is not promised in either 1244 [39] or the Rambouillet Agreement [40]), even if we thought Russia would allow a Security Council resolution on this [41].
I think the introduction proposed by Tonycpd is: a) wrong (Kosovo is not an 'international protectorate'); b) misleading (Kosovo is administered by the UN, his formulation giving a much stronger impression). As to inevitable independence this year, we need to be careful not to fall into the same trap of adopting the language of diplomacy for use in Wikipedia; I refer readers to a recent IWPR report: [42]. Can we reference this in the Final Status section?
I disagree most strongly with the argument that we should deliberately avoid the use of the term province because 'it has become associated with those peddling a particular point of view'. Serbs may overstress this reality, but reality it is. Equally, to not use the term province would be to become associated with those peddling a pro-Albanian point of view, so we really are getting into dangerous territory. Interesting that it is thought that this former point is the sole reason we should not refer to Kosovo as a province; this is not relevant to the purpose of this encyclopedia. The legal status of Kosovo is neither fast-moving nor complex. The history books might say in future: "Kosovo remained a province of Serbia under UN adminstration until the Final Status negotiations of 2008 resulted in a complex form of autonomy paralled by that of Hong Kong within the then-People's Republic of China".
The status of Kosovo is only deliberately ambiguous when used in Kosovo or in the presence of Kosovo Albanians or their supporters. The UK Foreign Office [43] states: "Legal Status: Kosovo is legally a province of Serbia and Montenegro (SaM) but has been under interim UN administration pending a settlement of its status in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 1244 since 1999." The CIA WOrld Fact Book [44] states: "the final status of the Serbian province of Kosovo remains unresolved and several thousand peacekeepers from the UN Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) have administered the region since 1999, with Kosovar Albanians overwhelmingly supporting and Serbian officials opposing Kosovo independence; the international community had agreed to begin a process to determine final status but contingency of solidifying multi-ethnic democracy in Kosovo has not been satisfied". Evv is right that we should look to authoritative secondary sources to interpret complex primary sources (though the primary sources are clear). Let us use these US and UK sources to agree that Kosovo should be described as a province of Serbia under UN administration. For us to refer to Kosovo as other than a province of Serbia would not be subtle or ambiguous, simply wrong and demonstrative of an unbalanced POV. (JD)
NB a further description from the UK Foreign Office, which is clearly content to report accurately and without feeling the need to compromise this for the sake of any given viewpoint [45]: "Geography: Kosovo lies in the south-western corner of Serbia, bordering Montenegro, Macedonia and Albania." Anyone have a reason why this shouldn't be the description we use? (JD)
Wow, JD, you said you spent time working in Belgrade? It barely shows! *grin*
Seriously, though, I think you'll find your legal interpretations of UNSCR 1244 to be somewhat unconventional. As you know, Chapter VII gives the UN Security Council all sorts of wacky powers to do stuff -- to say that UNSCR 1244 and the Constitutional Framework are simply interim agreements, subject to review at any time, between the UN and Belgrade is reaching a bit.
The reality is that this issue *is* complex, both legally and politically. For proof, just look at all these smart, well-informed, honest people coming to different conclusions! Furthermore, these issues, including the exact meaning of UNSCR 1244 and Serbia's exact role in Kosovo, are the subject of significant international disagreement. For example, last winter there was a big brouhaha with the ITU over UNMIK's application for a new mobile telephone code. UN Office of Legal Affairs, supported by virtually every other country, argued that UNSCR 1244 gave UNMIK the right to regulate telephony in Kosovo -- Serbia, however, made a stink about it and caused a major headache for ITU lawyers who usually operate by consensus. The issue ended in deadlock and Kosovo had to continue paying a fee to use an interim telephone code from another country (Monaco). My point here is that several months were spent with dueling high-paid international lawyers reaching exactly opposite conclusions. I guess that's why I'm not too worked up over people who want to use the term "Province." I disagree with it, but there are more egregious violations of truth out there! -- Envoy202 14:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
No, I think the <legal> status of Kosovo is fairly simple. The administration of Kosovo, and the conflict between the vague terms of 1244 and simplicity of existant Serbian state rights, are complex. I haven't sought to interpret 1244. Nor do I think 1244 is subject to review: it's fixed, but an agreement, a contract, between the UN and the FRY nevertheless. Any activities within Kosovo must either be supported by 1244 <or> be negotiated with Serbia, as you point out in reference to telecoms. The problem is that 1244 is vague and it is unclear how much power it gives to the UN, the clear position being that any right not given to the UN by 1244 remains that of Serbia. I nowhere suggest that 1244 is temporary: it is the body of law, the institutional structures which are provisional of final status and, in legal terms, have only the legitimacy given them by 1244. The constitutional framework is a bit of a hybrid as it has roots in 1244 but was achieved with the further agreeement of Belgrade, giving it legitimacy beyond 1244 through this Serbian acceptance.
I'm not quite sure how the difficulties over telecoms and the interpretation of the powers given by 1244 mean that Kosovo is no longer a province. A province it remains in law, and I'm awaiting any proof, or even a reliable secondary source, suggesting it is not. All sympathy to the frustrations of working in Pristina *grin* (JD)
I remain convinced this is mostly an argument about semantics. I think we're virtually in agreement about Kosovo's legal status, but are arguing in circles about the terms used to describe it. As you well note, UNSCR 1244 is vague.
I don't, however, agree with your assertion that UNMIK has a legal requirement to "negotiate" arrangements with Serbia (e.g., Constitutional Framework, telecom, etc.). UNMIK has pretty consistently asserted its right to *not* have to do such a thing; UN OLA has supported them in this. UNMIK holds consultations with Serbia for three reasons: 1) for reasons of courtesy, 2) to improve coordination of services (e.g., coordinate security in K-Serb communities), or 3) because Belgrade has the ability to block something UNMIK has a right to do (e.g., regulate telecom) so that UNMIK has no choice but to work with Belgrade on a solution. The telecom thing was really obnoxious -- Belgrade made such a big stink about the issue in the ITU, which spooked some conflict-averse lawyers who made decisions in contradiction with UN OLA. The end result that Kosovo got stuck in a ripoff contract with Monaco for the provision of mobile telecom services.
My point: at the end of the day, Chapter VII of the UN Charter is where UNMIK's authority comes from, not a putative "agreement" with Serbia. Chapter VII makes UNSCR 1244 binding on Serbia (and other UN members), whether Serbia likes it or not. And usually Serbia does not like it! -- Envoy202 01:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
No, I don't say anywhere that everything (or anything) has to be agreed with Belgrade. UNMIK has the power to do anything which is authorised under 1244 (which was agreed with the FRY). But anything beyond 1244 requires the agreement of Serbia. And that this is because sovereignty remains with Serbia except where 1244 has agreed a suspension of the exercise of those rights. And that ultimately Serbian law is the 'bedrock', alongside the UN Charter, but that new and provisional law can be created by the SRSG as long as it conforms with 1244. And that this means that Kosovo remains a) part of Serbia and b) a province of Serbia, as 1244 gives UNMIK no right to change these facts. The constitutional framework <was> agreed with Serbia though it could probably have proceeded without that agreement; having the agreement simply gives it more weight in international law than being authorised 'only' under 1244.
This is only an argument about semantics if you believe that terms such as 'province' and 'of Serbia' give some meaning beyond the description they give of the present 'condition' of Kosovo. You make your point well that all communities in Kosovo do attach such deeper meanings and that Serbs and Albanians will stress certain usages for their own benefit. The argument of many here is precisely that we are <not> supposed to be giving weight to the semantics of the terms. We should be describing Kosovo and the situtation it finds itself in, without fear or favour as they say. This should be an argument about terminology, not semantics, and I think that's where you and I are talking at cross purposes.
I also think it very important to state that describing Kosovo accurately <does not> favour a Serbian viewpoint, not does it imply that I or anyone else is for or against ultimate independence. Some facts favour the 'Serbian' side (Kosovo is still legally part of Serbia) some favour the 'Albanian' side (Kosovo is administered by the UN and is in a final status process which seems likely to end in independence). The desire to prevent the use of certain terms or descriptions, though correct, because they are seen to favour an argument you dislike is pretty distateful (Hello, Big Brother!) and far beneath the standards required of this encyclopedia.
I've enjoyed the discussion, nevertheless - thanks. And it says good things of Wikipedia and this article that we've gone to such lengths over one or two words! (JD)
I'm "un-smart", ill-informed and more dishonest than I usually like to admit :-) However, I must say that until this Talk page came to my attention I thought that only Kosovar Albanians considered Kosovo as anything different from a Serbian province. I knew of no "controversy" whatsoever. Why ? - This is not true, many non-Kosovars have the same opinion. In this talk page Envoy202 is also somewhat uncomfortable with the use of the term 'province', his earlier posts explain why.
I personally from my point of view, as you have seen from my previous comments never disputed that it was a province of Serbia (albeit with great reservations). What really bugs me is the lack of information clarifying its current state on the ground. Simply saying Kosovo is a province of Serbia (without clarifying the true relationship to Serbia) to a neutral reader sounds like 'Kosovo belongs to Serbia'. It is a subtle yet a very important difference, which is further enhanced by equalling it to Vojvodina.
The Introduction is the most important part of an article and 80% of people reading it would not bother reading beyond it. I yet again push the compromise solution forward which is a Secondary Source [46]. I would love to see it being changed so that it sounds more encyclopedia friendly, but I believe that the substance is neutral and should not be modified with other unnecessary data. -- Tonycdp 11:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The secondary source you quote states: "Legal Status: Kosovo is legally a province of Serbia and Montenegro (SaM)". With the inclusion of a statement that it has nevertheless been under UN administration since 1999, I think we've all agreed that this is the line to take, being correct, fair and balanced. (JD)
-- Tonycdp 14:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps there's a problem of English language here? My point was that you had suggested that your secondary source supported the view that Kosovo is not a province of Serbia. I chose selectively from that source to illustrate that it did not support your argument; to copy out the entire FCO Kosovo web page might have been a little excessive. As I've been arguing all along (against your objections), Kosovo is a province of Serbia, though has been under UN administration since 1999 with little direct involvement by Serbia. I'm glad that you now support this viewpoint and that we've achieved a consensus. (JD)
Hey, gang, is everybody cool with my new sections on Future Status and Politics? Again, I was nervous about the lack of citations -- I'd really appreciate the help, however, to dig up weblinks and other references. Most of the information, however, is utterly non-controversial (famous last words!).
-- Envoy202 18:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Again, I think we need to do more than repeat UNMIK press releases. I'll see what I can come up with. (JD)
Fair enough, JD. But be careful! This crew is pretty vicious when it comes to edits. *grin* Independent analysis or other perspectives is probably bound to be problematic. A "just the facts, ma'am" approach is best. -- Envoy202 22:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
As many of you will have noticed, this article and the related Template:Kosovo-InfoBox have repeatedly been messed around by someone using a series of anonymous IP addresses. Whoever it is is using open proxy servers, which is an instantly blockable offence - I've been going through them and blocking them as they appear. Unfortunately it may be necessary to semi-protect the article at short notice to keep out the anonymous vandal. Apologies in advance if this causes any problems. -- ChrisO 10:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I've posted a user-conduct request for comments on Ferick following his latest bout of edit-warring - it's time to put an end to it. Please feel free to add your comments at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Ferick. -- ChrisO 01:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
In the first two paragraphs of the intro, there is too much repetition of facts.
First paragraph: "While it is legally a part of Serbia it has been administered by the United Nations since the end of the 1999 Kosovo War."
Second paragraph: "Kosovo has been under Serbian sovereignty since 1912 but since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations with little direct involvement from the Serbian government."
Notice that the Kosovo war and the UN administration is mentioned twice in the intro? Now, when I remove one of these sentences, someone always reverts me, why? -- KOCOBO 23:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
-- Envoy202 16:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
For the sake of clarity, especially for readers not familiar with Kosovo (as i explained previously in Talk:Kosovo#Intro is too big a target, 20:08, 7 August 2006, UTC), i propose more or less to restore the previous first paragraph, rendering it:
Second paragraph for brief geographical description, third for "long-running dispute", as it is now. End of introduction. Regards. :-) -- Evv 21:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I again note my serious problem with the phrase "with little direct involvement from the Serbian government." I have asked for examples of Serbian "direct involvement" in Kosovo's goverance, but I've only heard examples that are of a distinctly indirect nature (e.g., sending assistance to K-Serb communities, holding regular consultations with UNMIK, UNMIK's previous usage of pre-89 FRY law in Kosovo, etc.). My concern is that saying Serbia has "direct involvement" in governing Kosovo makes it sound like at least a few current administrative/legal acts coming out of Belgrade would had legal effect in Kosovo. They don't.
I'd prefer the sentence to say "with no direct involvement." As a fallback, however, I'd be willing to consider the formulation: "with Serbia permitted no direct involvement in Kosovo's governance." This second formulation covers those people who consider Belgrade-funded parallel institutions (e.g., health/education) to be "direct involvement." UNMIK has long considered these institutions illegal, but, for obvious reasons, nobody in the international community has had the heart to shut down Belgrade-funded schools and clinics that benefit Kosovo's beleaguered Serb community. I'm sure there are ample sources that can verify this, including a great series of reports the OSCE did a few years ago on the parallel structures. As a final point, I'd note the July 24 Contact Group statement that pointedly referred to the "illegal parallel security structures," which have been a particular source of concern due to the delicate situation in northern Kosovo.
Can people go along with either of my formulations? If not, I'd appreciate a better argued case about how/where/in what manner Serbia currently exercises "direct involvement" in administering Kosovo. -- Envoy202 01:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
ow about dropping your version altogether Evv. We have discussed why mentioning Kosovo in the same breath with Vojvodina is wrong. In fact the only thing I can just about agree with you is using the term 'province'. I am very much in favour of using the CF as the basis for the intro, and I also suggest that there is strong emphasis on the fact that the political status is only temporary.
Tonycdp
A few points in reponse:
-- There are no Serbian security personnel legally operating in Kosovo today. UNSCR 1244 envisioned that, but UNMIK/KFOR have always prevented it, arguing -- quite understandably! -- that the reentry of Serbian security personnel would be destabilizing. Occasionally Belgrade has grumbled about this and Belgrade probably has a point. That being said, UNMIK, Belgrade and the international community all have a long and illustrious record of picking their favorite parts of UNSCR 1244 and forgetting the rest.
-- There are, however, Belgrade security perseonnel present in Kosovo illegally. Serbia has infiltrated quite a few MUP (Interior) and BIA (intelligence) into Kosovo, especially the north. Belgrade has never acknowledged them, but has usually been coy when asked about their existence. As the situation in northern Kosovo has gotten more tense, the Contact Group made the unusual move of publicly expressing its concern over these personnel in its July 24 statement. My relevant point is that the presence of illegal personnel does not constitute "direct governance," but, at best, some sort of illegal "indirect governance" that could be described later in the article.
-- Yes, Belgrade-funded parallel structures, particularly in health/education, do exist. They have been a thorn in UNMIK's side for years, but nobody particularly wants to dismantle them -- these structures provide important services to the Kosovo Serb community, which has gotten a pretty raw deal in recent years. Nevertheless, they are illegal and UNMIK and the international community have considered them disruptive. That is why the 2004 Kosovo Standards Implementation Plan listed their dismantling as a priority Standards Action Item (section 2, action item 17). Put all these facts together, however, and I would maintain that the existence of these structures does *not* constitute "direct involvement." Belgrade-funded funciontaries do not enjoy legitimacy vis-a-vis the UN administration of Kosovo and are not operating legally. At best, it is some kind of indirect involvement.
-- Yes, Belgrade and UNMIK consult frequently. As they should. My understanding is that there have been frequent and regular consultations over the years. Does consultation equate to "direct involvement" in administering Kosovo? Probably not. UNMIK consults with many states on issues affecting governance and security in Kosovo -- do all these states therefore have "direct involvement" in administering Kosovo? At best, it is some kind of diffuse indirect involvement.
-- Yes, Belgrade has threatened legal challenges that stalled to UNMIK's management of privatization in Kosovo. As a result, after much wrangling with the UN Office of Legal Affairs, UNMIK moved to a novel "emminent domain" model for privatization that leaves the staff of the Kosovo Trust Agency less vulnerable to Belgrade legal action. KTA has since moved ahead with privatization and the process is continuing apace. Does the fact that Belgrade's threats of legal action stalled the privatization process equate to "direct involvement" in administering Kosovo? I'd argue that the fact that UNMIK was able to circumvent the threat suggests that Belgrade's threats do not constitute "direct involvement."
-- Yes, immediately after UNMIK arrived it declared that the laws of pre-99 laws of Serbia were valid. This was to avoid a legal vacuum, not to make some sort of statement about Serbia's "direct involvement" in Kosovo's day-to-day governance. This declaration was largely put aside in 2004 when UNMIK and the PISG promulgated a set of Provisional Criminal Codes and Provisional Codes of Procedure, plus the large body of UNMIK "law" that has been accumulated through regulations and laws passed by the Kosovo Assembly (and subsequently promulgaged by UNMIK). In any case, the central conclusion is this: Belgrade cannot pass a law today and have it take effect in Kosovo. My conclusion is, therefore, that Belgrade does not have "direct involvement" in passing laws that affect Kosovo's governance.
My point here is relatively small: namely, that "Belgrade is permitted no direct role in administering Kosovo" is the most accurate way of describing the state of affairs. Arguably, the whole point of UNSCR 1244 was to strip Serbia of any "direct role" in administering Kosovo (umm....since they were doing such a great job of it before June 1999!). But even if you argue that this was not the purpose/effect of UNSCR 1244, the last seven years of practice have effectively brought about this state of affairs. UNMIK, the legal authority with a Chapter VII mandate to adminsiter Kosovo, does not now and has not ever permitted Belgrade a role in "direct governance" of Kosovo.
But I'll gladly concede that Belgrade's role in Kosovo is complex, if often below-the-surface and often based more on its influence than a legally-authorized role. That is why I would propose adding a few sentences under the 'Politics and Governance' section that tries to explain in a neutral way the things that Belgrade does and does not do in Kosovo today. This could outline the intense consultations that Belgrade/UNMIK have carried out over the years, as well as cite various reports about the role illegal parallel structures play in Serbian communities.
As a final note, I'd point out that even Belgrade is not seeking a "direct role" in governing the whole of Kosovo in the future. Their status negotiating platform would largely allow the Kosovo Albanian-dominated central government do its own thing, while Belgrade seeks to preserve the right to exercise that "direct role" only in Kosovo Serb-majority municipalities.
-- Envoy202 14:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I'd probably agree most with the 'little direct involvement' formulation. Envoy202 makes cogent points: Belgrade's actions and rights are often at variance and Serbia is formally allowed no direct role in the administration of Kosovo. I think it does, however, have considerable 'involvement' in Kosovo. Whilst I think we should agree with Envoy202's points on the quality and legality of Serbian involvement, paying pensions and salaries in Mitrovica or Gracanica must be a 'direct' invovlement in Kosovo, must it not? Given that these sorts of interactions apply to up to 10% of the population, calling this 'little' direct involvement is if anything understating the case: which I think is proper as we need to present a view in the summary which underlines the present primacy of UNMIK in administration. We certainly need to present the remaining complexity in a politics section somewhere.
We have discussed the value of including a reference to the other province of Serbia in the introduction, much as is done for other countries (eg. England in the UK context). The weight of argument seemed, for me, to be with keeping the reference to Vojvodina to put the constitutional position of Kosovo into perspective.
Some other points. Serbian law does have (illegitimate, from UNMIK's point of view) effect in the Serbian areas of Kosovo, most clearly in post-1999 legislation on health services, pensions and the like. The progress of privatisation is erratic and slow with serious impediments posed by existing Serbian rights over private and State assets in place in 1999 (see recent IWPR reporting on Trepca [47] or this from the Financial Times, "But Bujar Dugolli, Kosovo's trade minister, presses a forceful case for change, outraging officials in Belgrade and causing Unmik discomfort. In an interview he questioned Mr Ruecker's promise of swift privatisation, accusing Unmik of overseeing 'cosmetic' economic reforms and an 'ineffective' KTA."); we need to avoid repeating the rose-tinted line which UNMIK officials would naturally prefer. The constitution and laws of Serbia remain the foundation of law in Kosovo; were UNMIK to legislate for every single area of law covered by Serbia in 1999, the legislation (including the constitutional framework) would remain provisional and built on that bedrock, legitimised only by UNSC 1244. We might find this uncomfortable, but having come to a ceasefire arrangement with Milosevic which did not ceed Serbian sovereignty, this is the situtation which we must report. (JD)
I think User: Tonycdp may have deleted my comments following those of KeiranT and replaced them with the above rant. That's not on, surely?
For the record, I think Kosovo should be independent, but not without conditions concerning the rights, return and safety of minorities, and not without reducing tackling organised crime. Nor do I think we should pretend that any of this can be done without reference to the UN Charter and international law. But my personal opinion should not matter. The legal status of Kosovo is as it is and we have to deal with that reality to move forward. The UN presence in Kosovo is dependent on prior FRY acceptance, under duress or not, and no UN authority could function without this agreement without violating the Charter.
To cover Envoy202's point (again): we're describing direct 'involvement' in Kosovo not direct governance. Serbia has no direct role in governance, only the indirect sort which each UN member state has. The UK and US also have a direct involvement in Kosovo though this is a part of the broader 'international community' involvement whereas Serbia operates parallel structures and asserts influence over a substantial minority of the territory and population of Kosovo. We should make reference to this small element of direct involvement in Kosovo in the introduction. This does not legitimise the Serbian position, simply describes it. There's a worrying line of argument which would seek to present reality other than it is to further a particular point of view or restrict another, including making attacks on personal motivations. I think there's a consensus here that 'Kosovo is a province of Serbia, governed by the UN with little direct involvement by Serbia' or some such. (JD)
A few thoughts
First of all, a note to Tony -- chill out, dude! Let's keep the tone collegial and respectful, OK?
Now on to the RS/Kosovo comparison. I, too, bristle at this quite a bit. I think people should be very careful in making this comparison. We've already seen some Serb politicians raise this specter (most notably Tadic), much to the disapproval of the international community.
The cases differ in major ways:
-- RS's final status has already been determined. It was agreed to by the warring parties in Dayton, to which Serbia was also a signatory. That status has been confirmed in subsequent UNSC resolutions.
-- Kosovo's final status has not defined. To the contrary, a UNSCR explicitly has called for a political process to determine that status. That UNSCR deliberately excluded no options, including independence.
-- The RS, lacking any historical status, possesses borders that were created through a war in the 1990s. Kosovo's borders, however, have been stable for decades and were quite significant legally in the SFRJ up until Milosevic revoked Kosovo's autonomy through force.
The reality is that the Kosovo future status discussion is happening in a unique legal and historical context. The overarching context is the bloody disintegration of Yugoslavia, which created a threat to international peace and security that required international involvement.
JD, you noted that "Kosovo's claim to independence is based solely on some earlier administrational existence" -- well, if you recall, that was exactly the basis of the claims for independence by Slovenia, Croatia, BiH, etc. in the 1990s. As you know, the Badinter Commision said that those entities that possessed republic status in the SFRJ had the right to go their own separate way. Was the SFRJ status of those places the best or the fairest way to divvy of the former Yugoslavia? Maybe not, but it worked at the time and was better than the alternatives (e.g., redrawing new borders from scratch).
Now this process of Yugoslavia's disintegration is coming to a close. Kosovo is making three claims:
1) A LEGAL claim that its quasi-republic status in the SFRJ gives it the same right to become independent as was granted to all the other peoples of the former Yugoslavia (even the Montenegrins chose to exercise their right to go their own way!).
2) A MORAL claim that the undeniably awful things that Serbia did to Kosovo's Albanians in the 1990s -- actions that necessitated international intervention, albeit on a questionable legal basis -- diminished Serbia's right to rule Kosovo again.
3) A PRACTICAL claim that the trauma of the 1990s, combined with the fact that for seven years Serbia's rule has been suspended in Kosovo, makes it unsustainable to forcibly reunify Kosovo with Serbia without threatening regional stability.
You're right to note that Serbia has a strong legal argument: namely, that it is the sovereign and that sovereign states do not generally have independent countries created on "their" territory. That's a powerful claim, upon which Belgrade will/has invoked the Helsinki Final Act and the UN Charter. But the legal issues involved in Yugoslavia's disintegration go beyond facile claims like this. As a side note, Belgrade's negotiating platform -- an oddly undemocratic offer to let Kosovars do their own thing in Kosovo, but deny them any central representation in Serbia or engage in Serbia's defense or diplomatic relations with the word -- has not impressed anyone with its moral sincerity.
At the end of the day, the UN Special Envoy will carry out the status process envisioned in UNSCR 1244 and try to bring the parties as close together on as many issues as possible (including the sovereignty question). In the event of deadlock, Ahtisaari will then make his recommendations to the UN Security Council, which is granted far-reaching powers under the UN Charter to make decisions to ensure international peace and security. As has happened throughout history, the Great Powers (now called "the international community") will make decisions based on a mix of legal, moral and practical issues involved. As has been well-documented in many places, the international consensus has been for some time that Kosovo's independence, subject to a lengthy transitional period of heavy and robust international supervision to ensure minority rights, is the only viable status outcome. It's not necessary a good outcome -- in fact it's a very lousy outcome in many ways! -- but it's the only one that is seen to be viable. Serbia has been aware of this consensus for some time, but lacks courageous leaders to admit reality and focus Serbia's people not on the past but on Serbia's future in Euro-Atlantic institutions.
OK, enough of that. My intention was not to argue the Kosovo status position. My intention is to put to rest the dangerous comparisons with the RS. When Kosovo becomes independent, there will surely be nationalist voices trying to draw legal/moral/practical parallels with the situation in the RS. I think we all have a responsibility to point out the differences (noted above) and seek to calm the situation. Reopening Dayton sounds like a pretty miserable idea to me! -- Envoy202 22:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not confident that either of you are really reading what I have written. I don't say that Kosovo is a creation of Tito, I say that the Autonomna Pokrajina Kosovo i Metohija was a creation of Tito: this is true, as is the fact that Kosovo as an administrative and regional description has a much older provenance. Nor do I ever say that Kosovo has only a claim based on the SFRY administrative boundaries: I say that you <must> think that this is the only basis of the claims if you deny the RS such claims only becuase it was <not> a entity under the SFRY. Kosovo has valid claims for all the reasons you state, as I make clear (repeatedly) in my comments. Please read my comments with more care; you only do yourselves a disservice.
As a supporter of the UN and it's role in the world I find it pretty scary that you find claims based on the UN Charter 'facile'. I also find it scary that you feel that arguments should not be made because they are 'dangerous'. Please, argue against my position, but do not seek to gag an argument because it is seditious: that's the tool of dictators, my friend. Nor should you suggest that I should not make an argument simply because some politician or other also makes it, if that argument is valid and meets that standards of Wikipedia. The feeling might be that you're trying to silence these arguments because you want to support a given position, in this case that you dislike the Serbian positon. I, on the other hand, am trying to present a position based solely on verifiable facts or the interpretation of reliable second sources, and founded entirely on international law. If you dislike the outcome of those arguments, then you're effectively telling us that a) you prefer the Kosovo Albanian side of the disagreements over Kosovo and b) belive that (if my arguments are valid) the Kosovo Albanian position is in fact weaker than the international community in Kosovo would like to present.
The use of a comparison of Kosovo and the RS is valid. As I've said repeatedly, this does not mean that I believe that the RS should seek independence if Kosovo does, or that Kosovo should not gain independence. I note that the RS and Serbia will use this tool (which does not mean I support them doing so) and that the international community will have great difficulty in presenting a case against RS secession from Bosnia without being seen to give different rights to Kosovo Albanians and Bosnian Serbs. There is nothing 'scary' or morally insincere for me to make these arguments. I am not Boris Tadic and I do not support his position, though the facts may. And that's what you want to supress. (JD)
And please never again question my morals. We're trying to write a encyclopedia and debate the facts. And if we were trying to debate the Kosovo question then I would certainly look as unfavourably on the rights to independence of a Kosovo Albanian community which has abused the rights and lives of an ethnic minority as I did the rights to sovereignty of a Milosevic regime which also abused the rights and lives of an ethnic minority. The rights of a Kosovo Serb are not less than those of a Kosovo Albanian. (JD)
to JD: Unfortunately I don't have a great deal of time to respond to every comment you have made, at this praticular moment, although I do promise to come back an tackle them more thoroughly when I manage to get a minute. Especially with regards to the UK nations (which is where I am from) and the rather ridiculous parallels drawn with Kosovo, not to mention Hong Kong and China which is even more ridiculous.
Important things first:
Its funny how you've chosen that particular text from the Foreign office site (Geography Section), when you could as easily have chosen the Legal Status section, which states the following:
"Legal Status: Kosovo is legally a province of Serbia and Montenegro (SaM) BUT has been under interim UN administration pending a settlement of its status in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 1244 since 1999."
Now how about you and Evv send an e-mail to the Foreign Office and ask them to stop putting emphasis on an inevitable status resolution by the end of this year. And also tell them that S&M is now Serbia, I would love to hear their reaction.
I think I've made my point, current legal status should be in the Inroduction but with strong emphasis on the pending permanent status. Constitutional Framework needs to be taken into account too, and unnecessary political maps (like the one with Kosovo within Serbia) should be removed, because as I stated before you couldn't possibly compare Kosovo to any of these regions, it is plain misleading.
P.S. The following has nothing to do with the discussion here it is just a plain observation on my part, so please spare yourselves the breath: Note on the Foreign Office site at the top of the page how they refer to Kosovo as a country not as a province:
"BASIC INFORMATION Full Country Name: Kosovo"
-- Tonycdp 14:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
One more thing before I go. You said the following: "
3. Republika Srpska did not exist at the time of the SFRJ, but neither was Kosovo a republic of the SFRJ, just an administrative subdivision of Serbia and the creation of Tito
"
Now by saying that Kosovo was a Josip Broz's creation you are opening a can (no in fact a Barrel) of worms, and that would probably require a new discussion page on that subject alone.
Let me tell you how I percieve Kosovo: Well for starts not a creation of Tito, but an entity known since the Ottoman empire, "Kossovo Vilayet" ring any bells, in fact Kosovo has an even older identity in the form of the ancient Dardania. Now if you want we can study the SFRJ constitution of 1974 (the most complex and the longest constitution ever written for a country) and then determine what status Kosovo had within SFRJ. From the few bits I can remember whilst reading it, I believe Kosovo had their own representative in the presidency (8 members in total), doesn't that make it an equal entity in SFRJ.
You keep hanging on to the original legal status of pre-1999 (which you claim it is still valid). I suppose you also know how that legal status was achieved. Well, Let me remind you: Milosevic imposed it forcefully in 1989, which prompted Slovenia to seek independence (and the rest we know).
Please please please don't compare Kosovo to Republika Srpska. 100,000 (mainly innocent) people died to carve out the latter, and it never ever existed as an entity until the 1995 Dayton accord.
You have clearly been influenced by Milosevic's doctrine, which to this day haunts Serbs, and still keeps them in denial.
-- Tonycdp 14:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Some confused logic here. The question as regards the RS is this: do we take the view that Kosovo's claim to independence is based solely on some earlier administrational existence? And if so, why choose a particular communist constitution, rather than, say, that of the preceeding Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, or of the Nazi puppet states? If past administrational boundaries are acceptable when seeking self-determiniation, why are present boundaries (such as that of the RS, forged in blood perhaps but legitimised by the international community) not equally acceptable? The point is that having or having had a distinct administrational existance gives a region, where controlled by a majority of such a mind, the opportunity to express a wish for self-determination. But the right to self-determiniation comes as a result of democratic opinion, modified by a due regard for the rights and security of minorities <and> by the right of existant nation states as enshrined in the UN Charter. If a democratic Kosovo has the right to seceed from a democratic Serbia, why should a democratic RS not choose to seceed from a democratic Bosnia? There is no answer to this which does not involve applying different rights to those of Kosovo Albanians and Bosnian Serbs: and to apply rights in such a way is precisely the doctine of the Milosevic/Tudjman/Karadzic era.
I do not believe the system Milosevic created to be right or morally defensible or superior, quite the opposite. In all ways that system was deficient and we were right to use all available force to remove that regime and it's cronies from the administration of Kosovo. As a British diplomat and having workd on matters Yugoslav from 1999 onwards, I am proud to have contributed to international isolation of his regime and it's ultimate downfall. But international law is international law and pretending that it is otherwise does a disservice to the readers of this encyclopedia and to all communities in Kosovo.
And I <will> continue to compare Kosovo and the RS, and rightly so: these are valid examples of distinct administrative areas with large ethnic majorities at variance to the nation states of which they are presently part. Kosovo as much as any other region in the Balkans has been formed by warfare and bloodshed, right up to 1999 and March 2004. If you are concerned that making these arguments and demonstrating their legitimacy in some way supports or stregthens some generalised 'Serbian' position, then perhaps you need to face the possibility that the Serbian position has more legitimacy than you would like. Do not quote war dead to me in an effort to supress legitimate argument. (JD)
-- Tonycdp 17:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
"You can't go claiming Supreme Executive Power just because some watery bint lobbed a scimitar at you!" Monty Python
Nor is the SFRJ constitution a very good basis for self-determination. Kosovo did not have equal status, not being a republic. And more importantly, Republika Srpska now exists as an entity within BiH in the same way Kosovo is an entity within Serbia, as much shaped by ethnic cleansing as Kosovo. If you believe that the RS has no right to independence because of international agreements, then Kosovo has a right to independence based only on international agreements, but in that case independence looks impossible as UNSC 1244 speaks only of substantial autonomy within Serbia. I don't believe it right that the RS might threaten to secceed, but it has that right as much as Kosovo has. The decision made by the international community in 1999 seems not to be that which you believe: all that was offered was UN administration and a final status process. Serbia lost the right to administer Kosovo but retains sovereignty over it. If peaceful independence for Kosovo is to be achieved then we have to begin with accepting these facts. If these facts cannot be accepted by the Albanian community then there is a real risk of increased violence against both the international community and minority groups. (JD)
Kosovo (Albanian: Kosovë/Kosova, Serbian: Косово и Метохија/Kosovo i Metohija) is one region in Albania, and is located in the north of the country . However, it has been administered by the United Nations since the end of the 1999 Kosovo War, with little direct involvement from the Albanian government.
Kosovo ( Albanian: Kosovë/Kosova, Serbian: Косово и Метохија/Kosovo i Metohija) is one of the two autonomous provinces of Serbia, and is located in the south of the country (the other is Vojvodina, in the north of the country). However, it has been administered by the United Nations since the end of the 1999 Kosovo War, with little direct involvement from the Serbian government.
You are not going to find it. You are clear serbian nationalist. - Hipi
All of you are a member of the serbian goverment and serbian church Project Rastko wicht user some account to speek in the name of Albaners.
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