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I actually think the user has many, like plenty redundancies with
Korean ethnic nationalism. But okay, I start with the worrisome changes (
diff):
According to Robert E. Kelly, a professor at Pusan National University, anti-Japanese racism in South Korea stems not just from Imperial Japanese atrocities during the colonial era, but from the Korean Peninsula's division.[1]As most Koreans, north and south are racial nationalists, most South Koreans feel a kinship and racial solidarity with North Korea.[1]Due to this perceived racial kinship, it is considered bad form for a South Korean to hate North Korea, to run the risk of being a race traitor.[1] As a result, Kelly says, South Koreans take out the anger rising from Korean division against Japan.[1] This view is supported by another professor,
Brian Reynolds Myers.
The original text doesn't mention anything like this.[1] Also the sources later added for Myers don't support this claims. Clearly
WP:V and
WP:NPOV.
Additionally: "As most South Koreans are racial nationalists, they tend to see positive achievements, such as sporting successes, as being a result of racial characteristics, whereas negative events are attributed to the incompetence and inherent inferiority of the state." (
diff).
WP:NPOV and the complete sentence is not backed by the added sources (
[1],
[2]). --
Christian140 (
talk)
19:49, 19 December 2016 (UTC)reply
The best thing to do is to wait for the editor who added the content to give his opinion. It's not an urgent BLP issue, so there is no major hurry - especially at this time of year, with people on vacation etc.
Important point to remember is that perhaps it is paraphrasing the source, we should be aware of COPYVIO, so perhaps that explains the differences between the sources and the content.
Spacecowboy420 (
talk)
06:18, 22 December 2016 (UTC)reply
There is nothing paraphrased at all. All these contents cannot be concluded by the sources. Also, when a user
adds completely unsourced content, it is on the user who wants to add it to provide sources. Moreover,
WP:NOHARM states "As for articles that do not conform to our basic tenets (verifiability, notability, and using reliable sources), keeping them actually can do more harm than one realizes". --
Christian140 (
talk)
15:52, 22 December 2016 (UTC)reply
It's nice that you posted the essay
WP:NOHARM (that clearly states This page is an essay, containing the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors on Wikipedia:Deletion policy. Essays are not Wikipedia policies or guidelines. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints.)
How about instead of basing arguments on an essay that is not a Wikipedia policy or guideline, you base them on on Wikipedia policy
WP:PRESERVE (that clearly states This page documents an English Wikipedia policy, a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow. Changes made to it should reflect consensus.)
To quote
WP:PRESERVE - "Instead of removing content from an article, consider:
Rephrasing or copy-editing to improve grammar or more accurately represent the sources
Correcting
inaccuracies, while keeping the rest of the content intact
It's ok, as per
WP:PRESERVE - I tagged the article as requiring additional sources. Hopefully that will result in the sources that you considered to be so important. I'm sure we all agree that it's better to fix content and find sources, than to just remove content.
Spacecowboy420 (
talk)
05:51, 23 December 2016 (UTC)reply
It is not even shown that this unsourced content has any links to nationalism. There needs to be a proof that anti-Chinese Sentiment or territorial disputes are linked to nationalism.
"There are a lot of hatreds towards Chinese people and Chinese products in Korea, due to a fact that many Chinese products are "low-quality"."
So, this even says it is because of low-quality and not due to nationalism. Moreover, it is not a fact that Chinese products are low-quality. Additionally, Chinese products are increasingly popular in Korea: Park Su-ryon, Move over Korea: the China wave is here, JoongAng Ilbo, Dec. 17, 2016.
"China refers the Mountain as the Mount Changbai and refuses to recognize total sovereignty of Korean claims in the Mountain, also it isn't serious like Japan–Korea conflicts."
This statement let's one question the notability.
Also, the style, using "many Koreans" all the time is
WP:Weasel. There is nothing to preserve since no link to the article topic is presented.
You also omitted the most important aspect of
WP:Preserve:
"Likewise, as long as any of the facts or ideas added to an article would belong in the "finished" article, they should be retained if they meet the three article content retention policies: Neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), Verifiability and No original research."
What this article need is stating the state of art of the scientific discourse. This article offers not much information about Korean nationalism and instead lists trivialities and curiosities.
This comment by another user summarizes the problems very well. --
Christian140 (
talk)
10:24, 23 December 2016 (UTC)reply
The common way to deal with weasel words is to re-word the offending content, rather than remove huge paragraphs from the article. Your removals are borderline vandalism.
You have no idea what is and is not original research and/or verifiable until you discuss with the editor who added that content and find out their sources.
Due to the huge amount of content you continue to remove (on more than one article) and the constant vindictive ANI reports, you are very close to being reported as a highly disruptive editor. I don't think you're here to contribute to article, you are here for conflict and to promote some form of pro-Korea agenda.
Spacecowboy420 (
talk)
11:05, 23 December 2016 (UTC)reply
I suggest
I don't have to do any of this. The content is unsourced and had been added by an IP. So, contacting the user makes not much sense. You, keeping to add the content again without sources is vandalism. I clearly stated comprehensibile reasons why the content should be removed but you gave no argument to keep it. The first part
is not correct and the other parts
are already in the article. All of my edits were always well explained, on this article as well as on others. Your edits and edit wars are actually very questionable. --
Christian140 (
talk)
18:40, 23 December 2016 (UTC)reply
By now, you didn't discuss even one time on the content and did not present a single argument why the content should be kept. An IP editor cannot be contacted since the address is dynamic. And again, you are quoting WP:Preserve incorrectly. I already quoted it above: "Likewise, as long as any of the facts or ideas added to an article would belong in the "finished" article, they should be retained if they meet the three article content retention policies: Neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), Verifiability and No original research." Not even one of the three criteria is met.
I think the content you are trying to remove is notable and relevant to the article & that for the content that is lacking sources, you should attempt to find sources, rather than removing potentially good content.
I can understand both sides of the dispute, and I'll start by pointing that we do have middle ground: we all agree that certain content is unreferenced, or at the very least, poorly referenced. I have added {{verification failed}} to the first bolded quote Christian outlined above ("As most Koreans, north and south are racial nationalists, most South Koreans feel a kinship and racial solidarity with North Korea. Due to this perceived racial kinship, it is considered bad form for a South Korean to hate North Korea, to run the risk of being a race traitor"), as I have checked the sources and can confirm that they do not support those claims. For the second bolded quote, "As most South Koreans are racial nationalists, they tend to see positive achievements, such as sporting successes,as being a result of inherent racial characteristics, whereas negative events are attributed to the incompetence and inherent inferiority of the state." I do find partial support in the
[3]: "Myers argued that a tradition of state "blood-based" or
ethnic nationalism on a divided peninsula runs the risk of undermining loyalty to one republic and promoting loyalty to the other, competing, state... All bad things are blamed on the
republic, while all good things are ascribed to the race (minjok)... both right and left still preach race nationalism." and
[4] "South Korean nationalism is something quite different from the patriotism toward the state that Americans feel. Identification with the Korean race is strong, while that with the Republic of Korea is weak" What is not clearly stated by the source is that "most South Koreans are racial nationalists" and there is nothing about any "sporting successes" as an example (no examples of good things attributed to race are given). As such, I'd propose to rewrite the second sentence as follows: "Due to the tradition and state support for race nationalism, South Koreans tend to see positive achievements as being a result of inherent racial characteristics, whereas negative events are attributed to the incompetence and inherent inferiority of the state" I have taken the liberty of rewriting the sentence in my recent edit. As for what to do with the first one. Well, yes, ideally we woul find sources for it, but since nobody seems to be able to do so, I would support removal of that per guidelines/policies of
WP:OR/
WP:V, which
WP:PRESERVE clearly gives priority to (content should remain only if it meets those policies). Finally, regarding other unreferenced content, I suggest we first post it here and try to find references. If we cannot, it could be removed.
WP:OR and
WP:V need to be respected. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here11:23, 29 December 2016 (UTC)reply
Good work
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus - some form of sensible compromise is likely to result in consensus. At least more likely than running to ANI/DRN with every minor content dispute. On this article, I think fixing content is a much better idea than deleting it. If a decent attempt to fix it fails, then perhaps removing content can be considered.
Spacecowboy420 (
talk)
11:41, 29 December 2016 (UTC)reply
Well, verification failed really means we can replace this with citation needed, since no-one is objecting by saying the content is there. And citation needed tags are removed based on editors discretion, sometimes after years, sometimes after days. Depends on how much we care. I don't think the claims are necessarily wrong, so I am ok keeping them for few months, but I am not going to object to a faster removal. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here13:24, 31 December 2016 (UTC)reply
I thought of something like seven days, considering this is the time given for AfDs. I think "citation needed" is something mainly good for older articles that were created before the <ref></ref> system was introduced, or when a citation simply got lost. For example when not every sentence was cited directly and then someone put more content between the sentence and the citation. And in this case here, I also doubt the content. "As most South Koreans are racial nationalists" is total unscientific statement and the race traitor claim seems dubious. Especially considering that in 2015 Shim Eun-mi had been
deported for praising North Korean beer and landscape. Of course, it had been a political decision. But one that clearly raises my doubts in the race traitor statement. Also, a
google scholar search remains without any results. --
Christian140 (
talk)
14:05, 31 December 2016 (UTC)reply
Through I'll point out that AfDs can go up to a month if there is no consensus, I will also note that I am not defending the problematic content you outlined, and I don't see anyone else currently objecting to its removal, so - sure, in few days we can cut it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here12:44, 1 January 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Piotrus: As you might have seen, I removed the "other unreferenced" content and added it here on the talk page, like proposed. But although the user seemed to support it, he still reverts. And adds even the parts that I already have
disproven. According to the Dispute Resolution Board, a RfC could be a next step. But I am not sure if RfC is really suitable for this topic since it is well-known that
unsourced content always can and should be removed. It is clear to everyone that the content should be removed if no one provides reliable sources, so, the RfC discussion would be how much time should be given? This discussion is now two weeks old and not a single source has been provided for anything. I guess it would be better to start an RfC anyways. --
Christian140 (
talk)
17:22, 2 January 2017 (UTC)reply
Assessing the current status of the discussion. Is there now anything to further discuss regarding the edits on the page Korean nationalism between December 20, 2016 and January 3, 2017? I guess yes, so I propose to outline the issue as precise as possible. Is a RfC or more guidance on
V,
OR and
Preserve needed? Which further steps on dispute resolution should be taken? --
Christian140 (
talk)
22:02, 3 January 2017 (UTC)reply
I have reviewed
the diffs since my last edit. I mostly support those edits. The unreferenced, poor English and clearly NPOV sentence "here are a lot of hatreds towards Chinese people and Chinese products in Korea" should have been nuked long time ago. The other content about China, while interesting, needs sources and could be restored with sources. I am not sure if the following that is needed (verify sources): This view is supported by another professor, [[Brian Reynolds Myers]] of [[Dongseo University]].<ref name=KoreaShrug/><ref name=UnlovedRepublic/>{{verify source|date=January 2017}} Anyway, since it is easier to rewrite articles if they are shorter, I am in general supportive of removing even more content that is not on-topic / not well referenced. Maybe later this month I will find time to actually read this article and post my own in detail review. For now, frankly, I prefer to write new content from scratch (I just wrote
Freedom of the press in South Korea , which I invite you to review, I nominated it for TDYK). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here15:13, 4 January 2017 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't be surprise if Myers has the same opinion as Kelly on this. However, I don't think this is supported by the two sources given. That's why I put this tag behind the sentence "<nowiki>This view is supported by another professor,
Brian Reynolds Myers of
Dongseo University." I think another problem of the article is reduncancy. The sentence A survey conducted around 2006 showed that 68.2% of respondents considered "blood" the most important criterion of defining the Korean nation, and 74.9% agreed that "Koreans are all brothers and sisters regardless of residence and ideology."[1]verification needed appears just some six sentences later again in nearly the same words. Or the part In an attempt to counter China's controversial Northeast Project and Goguryeo controversies that ensued, the South Korean government in 2007 incorporated the founding of Gojoseon of the year 2333 BCE into its textbooks.[29] In 2006, the South Korean government incorporated the founding of Gojoseon of the year 2333 BCE into its textbooks.[30] in
Nationalist histeriography. It should be either 2006 or 2007. There are also plenty of redundancies with
Korean ethnic nationalism and I think it could be considered merging these articles. I guess the only reason why there are two articles for Korea is that
Korean ethnic nationalism started as
Pure blood theory in korea. --
Christian140 (
talk)
20:04, 6 January 2017 (UTC)reply
The end of the first sentence under the Liancourt Rocks dispute heading in the
Korean_nationalism#Particular_issues section seams to be either missing some text at the end (or has an extra word "the"), as it doesn't read correctly to me:
"...to Korea in the 1951."
(Apologies for not going back myself to see if there was previously text here which was deleted.)
Although relationship between China and two Koreas are quite well, however, there is a continous dispute between both China and Korea. Koreans believe that China was the cause of the situation between North and South Korea, dated back from the
Korean War. In recently, there are historical conflicts between both because of many controversy towards
Goguryeo, language origins and the ancient war between China and Korea.citation needed
In Korea, Mount Paektu is referred to be Korea's Holy Mountain due to its historical closure to Korean ancient history, however, recent conflict between Korea and China grow when China start to prepare for a Winter Olympics bid is a part of China's claim. China refers the Mountain as the Mount Changbai and refuses to recognize total sovereignty of Korean claims in the Mountain, also it isn't serious like Japan–Korea conflicts. citation needed
Gando
There is an anti-Chinese feelings over the Chinese control of Gando, because China has occupied it because of
Gando Convention between
Empire of Japan and
Qing China, resulting with the Chinese sovereignty in Gando. Many Koreans still feel angered with China over it. citation needed
Many Koreans believe China is trying to claim, or even, distort history of Korea by claiming Korea's
Goguryeo as Chinese tributary state has been sparked angers from South Korea, which they believed it is China's attempt to distort Korea's history. citation needed
Proposal to remove off-topic off-topic section on 2002 FIFA World Cup
Wow, you know this is going to be bad when the paragraph starts with editorializing like "In a Cinderella story, after five consecutive World Cups without a single win, the South Korean national soccer team made it to the semifinals with an improbable series of triumphs in 2002". After unreferenced but AGF introduction, we get two sentences about how happy Koreans were and that this was related to " national pride, identity, and confidence". Well, frankly, I cannot imagine any nation that wouldn't get at least moderately happy about this, and where such feeling couldn't be tied to the vaguely described "national pride, identity, and confidence". References fail of course, as the only good one is to Gi-Wook Shin book, with no page, but I was able to trace it to page 1 (and few more in that book): Gi-Wook Shin (2006).
Ethnic Nationalism in Korea: Genealogy, Politics, and Legacy. Stanford University Press. pp. 1–.
ISBN978-0-8047-5408-8.. The sentence on "national pride, identity, and confidence" is pretty much directly copypasted from it, but putting that aside, the main problem with that section is it takes a tiny example (2002 FIFA) and turns it into something big, totally undue for this article (about Korean nationalism). Again, I will repeat: all nations would celebrate winning an important FIFA match. Nothing in Shin's book suggests this is an important example of Korean nationalism. I couldn't even figure out how to use this example here in a non-trivial way. I suggest removal, as I believe this making an entire paragraph of a pretty normal behavior found in many if not all nations is totally undue and irrelevant (off-topic) to this article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here11:23, 25 January 2017 (UTC)reply
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