This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Azerbaijan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Azerbaijan-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AzerbaijanWikipedia:WikiProject AzerbaijanTemplate:WikiProject AzerbaijanAzerbaijan articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women writers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
women writers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women writersWikipedia:WikiProject Women writersTemplate:WikiProject Women writersWomen writers articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poetry, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
poetry on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoetryWikipedia:WikiProject PoetryTemplate:WikiProject PoetryPoetry articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Literature, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Literature on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LiteratureWikipedia:WikiProject LiteratureTemplate:WikiProject LiteratureLiterature articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of
History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles
Khurshidbanu Natavan is within the scope of WikiProject Artsakh, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to
Artsakh and
Artsakhians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the
project page for further information.ArtsakhWikipedia:WikiProject ArtsakhTemplate:WikiProject ArtsakhArtsakh articles
Hetoum, the statue of Natavan was damaged and sold as scrap metal to Georgia, where it was bought by Azerbaijani authorities. Please do not remove sourced info. --
Grandmaster06:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Nowhere is this sourced, you provided a random picture. To say politely, this picture did not give me 1,000 words. Please give text of this.
Hetoum I06:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Hetoum, please revert yourself, here’s a quote from de Waal regarding this statue:
In their turn, the conquering Armenians dismantled and sold off dark bronze busts of three Azerbaijani Shusha musicians and poets. Again, these memorials were rescued by chance, this time from a scrap-metal merchant in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. I saw the three bronze heads, forlorn and pocked with bullets, lying in the courtyard of the headquarters of the Red Cross in the center of Baku: the poet Natevan, an earnest girl in a head scarf reading a book, missing a thumb; the composer Hajibekov, a bullet-ridden gentleman in double-breasted suit and broken spectacles; and Bul Bul, a famous singer with a serious domed bronze forehead.
Thomas de Waal. Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through Peace and War
same as what does karabakh war or other statues has to do with this? Also, nothing in your source referred to Natavan;s residence. If you mention one "destruction" you should mention the other. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Hetoum I (
talk •
contribs)
05:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)reply
HetoumI - you are removing sourced info and it is directly related to Natavan - her monument. I don't know how relevant general info about destruction of Armenian cultural heritage here. It has its own page.--
Dacy6915:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)reply
I removed most of the section because it was a mess. Please rewrite it according to De Waal and no picture sources please.
VartanM18:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)reply
I reverted the important info about the fate of the bust and added Thomas de Waal's quote from his book "Black Garden"
Ehud05:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Ehud, just out of curiosity, how did you found this page, And why do you think an unknown picture should be used as a source.
VartanM06:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Vartan, I found this page the same way you did. Why do you think this picture is "unknown"? It is the picture of the bust of Natavan with the damage described in the quote from de Waal's book.
Ehud23:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Shalom, I think the picture is unknown because its been cropped from top and bottom, and it could be any statue. In any case it can't be used as a source. I removed it and placed a tag. It's up to you to find the a source to confirm whats written. Good talking to you, lehitraot.
VartanM01:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Shalom Vartan, shalom. Ma nishma? It is NOT any statue. You can compare the picture which was initially posted from Ogonek
[1] and the one here
[2] which clearly compares the condition of the bust in 1982 with the condition with bullet holes after it was found in Georgia to be sold as scrap metal. And here is another link showing the busts of Uzeyir Hajibeyov and Khurshidbanu Natavan in the frontyard of Azerbaijani Museum of Arts in Baku (third picture from the end, second row):
[3]. Reverting to previous version and adding the link as well.
Ehud03:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Shalom Ehud, ani beseder, ma shlomcha? I removed the picture sources because it constitutes to OR, added fact tags, please provide reliable text sources.
VartanM07:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Source is there, see de Waal: Armenians dismantled and sold off dark bronze busts of three Azerbaijani Shusha musicians and poets. He also describes that they are damaged with bullets. I will take a high quality image once renovation works in the museum are completed.
Grandmaster07:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Grandmaster then please fix the wording to correspond with De Waal. A high quality picture that isn't cropped from top and bottom will be a nice addition to this article. Please also note that the ogoniok picture is in the external links section.
VartanM07:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)reply
VartanM, I restored the reference to Ogonyok picture, as it's used as reference in the sentence of the article. As for external link, it does not matter if it's there or not now.
Atabek12:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)reply
I added the requested by SmackBot source and removed the tags. The source is the Public Association for the "Protection of Rights of Migrants and Internally Displaced Persons in Azerbaijan". Since the sentence itself starts with "Azerbaijan claims...", I hope, there is no point debating over the issue of the source. Thank you.
Ehud02:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Shalom Ehud, there is no problem saying that Azerbaijan claims only you have to write what the source actually says.
Three bronze monuments dedicated to the three creative giants – Hajibeyov, Bulbul and Natavan – were discovered in Georgia, allegedly being sold for scrap metal. But the minister of culture Polad Bulbuloghlu rescued these bullet-ridden bronze busts and brought them back to Baku where they are now on exhibit in the courtyard behind the National Museums of Art near the President’s Office Building."
1. No mention of Armenians
2. No mention of black market
3. Allegedly being sold for scrap metal.
In their turn, the conquering Armenians dismantled and sold off dark bronze busts of three Azerbaijani Shusha musicians and poets. Again, these memorials were rescued by chance, this time from a scrap-metal merchant in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. I saw the three bronze heads, forlorn and pocked with bullets, lying in the courtyard of the headquarters of the Red Cross in the center of Baku: the poet Natevan, an earnest girl in a head scarf reading a book, missing a thumb; the composer Hajibekov, a bullet-ridden gentleman in double-breasted suit and broken spectacles; and Bul Bul, a famous singer with a serious domed bronze forehead.
as for De waal you have to say De Waal claims, since his the only one that actually claims that it was Armenians who dismantled and sold off busts. Did he actually see them dismantling it and selling it in the "black market"(no mention of black market by the way). Look I have a fairly simple request please source your claims correctly, according to sources without OR. I was gonna edit the article but I will assume good faith and let you fix it.--
VartanM05:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Who else could have dismantled them in a town occupied by Armenian forces? While Azeris were in the town, the statues were there. I don't know if de Waal saw how Armenians were dismantling them or not, but it is a fact that he says what he says.
Grandmaster05:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Shalom Vartan. Thanks for working this out. I think, the title should stay at Destruction of monuments. Please take into account the following:
1. The monument must have been destructed if it appears (and not only Natavan's statue, but also those of Hajibekov and Bul Bul) to had been bullet-ridden and taken of its/their designated spot(s).
2. I didn't think you would have accepted the source, Vartan. Clearly, you liked the word "allegedly" :-) I am willing to input the word allegedly, if you agree we should insert one more reference from the same source which states:
But the damage caused by war to Shusha doesn’t limited only with it. Photo taken on May8, 1992 Khan kizi Natavan’s burnt house presented as “Armenian temple centre” and introduced as the sample of “Azerbaijanis vandalism” in web-site “www.artsakhworld”, which reflects the limitless of Armenian claims. We could cite as an example, shot statue of famous composer Uzeir Hajibeyov, famous singer Bulbul and Khurshud Banu Natavan, a 19th century Azeri poetess.[1]Ehud05:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)reply
If the monuments were destructed, they wouldn't be in Baku. The were damaged during the war, dismantled and taken to Georgia, found at a scrap metal yard, bought by the Azerbaijani minister of culture and brought to Baku.
Ehud the second reference is an attack on a website, if you can find another neutral source that says her house was damaged/destroyed/burnt/cought on fire we can discuss
VartanM15:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Shalom Vartan. Ma nishma? I don't think a website, which uses a word "allegedly" in regard to the fate of the monuments can be biased and present false claims on that issue. Evidently, www.artsakhworld.com is biased and presents Armenian stance only.
Ehud06:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Erev tov Ehud, ani beseder toda. I never tried to use artsakhworld as a source. the part about her house is more of an attack on artsakhworld then description about the house. I'm sure you can find another source. Besides the article already mentions that her residence was damaged. And I'm not questioning whether it did or not, a lot of houses in Shousha were damaged.
VartanM06:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Ok, “destroyed” is not the accurate word. They were severely damaged, for instance according to de Waal Natavan's statue was pocked with bullets and missing a thumb. And de Waal says that they were sold as scarp metal, so I don't understand what the second tag is for. I'll fix the article accordingly.
Grandmaster06:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)reply
You forgot the title of the section. Although severely is a wiseal word, I'm fine with it. The second tag was for "black market" De Waal never mentions any black markets.
VartanM06:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Yes, he says: Again, these memorials were rescued by chance, this time from a scrap-metal merchant in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. We can remove the words "black market". --
Grandmaster06:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)reply
I never disputed the fact that it was found in scrap-metal, I just don't believe that scrap metal merchants work in black market. For the title of the section I suggest "Natavans statue in Shusha" I think thats the most neutral. Unless you have other ideas.
VartanM06:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)reply
it could be something like "the fate" or "condition of Natavan's monuments in Shusha", as it is not just about her statue. Her residence was a museum. Something like that. Other suggestions can be considered.
Grandmaster06:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)reply
"Fate of Natavan's monument in Shusha" is fine. Look at it this way, how many statues get to survive a war, then travel to another country, where they survive being used as scrap metal, then they get rescued by a prince... I mean minister. She lived a great life as a statue, most statues just stand there and get pooped on by pigeons. You can remove the POV tag as well.
VartanM06:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)reply
We talk about cultural heritage, don't we? Natavan was not a political fugure to be hated for her beliefs. And I will do more research on what happened to her house-museum. I saw some pics of the ruins on the Internet, but we need a written source.
Grandmaster07:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)reply
I don't believe hatred had anything to do with what happened. I don't think her statue was intentionally shot at, ammunition was very hard to come by those years. And her statue was sold to Georgians not because Armenians hated her but because someone saw an opportunity to make money. Statues of Armenians were also disappearing during those years even from Yerevan. The article already mentions that her residence was damaged, you can expend on it if you find the sources.
VartanM07:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)reply
I have just modified one external link on
Khurshidbanu Natavan. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).
If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
this tool.
She was Azerbaijani. Her father Mehtiqulu Khan was Azerbaijani khan of Karabakh, Her grandfather Ibrahim Khalil khan was Azerbaijani khan of Karabakh. And ger grandgrandfather Panah Ali khan was the first Azerbaijani khan of Karabakh. Reliable sources determine her as an Azerbaijani poetress. So, please stop your disputed and destructive edits. In other case admins may block your account from editting. --
Interfase (
talk)
21:01, 12 October 2021 (UTC)reply