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Kashmiri is an Indo-Aryan language of Dardic group. No Turanic people (it is also an Aryan group like the Kashmirs) originated in Kashmir. This is part of a diosinformation effort to slowly change the history of this region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.205.189.211 ( talk) 21:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
I read the Rajataringini probably the most credible history of any time. Clearly Hindu Kashmir was not only Aryan ethnically but also culturally and religiously. Now most Kashmiris though of Aryan stock follow a Semitic religion namely Islam. Thus Semitic names and words have permeated in Kashmir. For example a traditional Hindu would refer to Agun for fire while A Muslim often uses the Arabic word Nar. Though by large even the Kashmiri spoken by Muslims largely remains Indo-Aryan in speach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.120.54 ( talk) 23:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I would also agree. Surely the Kashmiri Brahmins are the purest of Brahmins and most experts believe that the Aryan Race originated in Kashmir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.21.2 ( talk) 17:30, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
{{talkheadeMany famous experts such as Turner, Grierson, Monier-Williams etc. have speculated (quite rightfully) that the Brahmins of Kashmir are the purest of Aryans. Many experts such Johann Christoph Adelung were also convinced that the Race of Aryans had its origin in the Vale of Kashmir.'r}}
The word Aryan and Swastika is a senstive issue due to the cruelty of the Nazis led by the brute Hitler. Ignore this and study the Hindu epics and ancient German epics and you will observe that Manu (in German Mannus) is the first man (Mannus, son of Tuisto was a mythological character from whom a number of Germanic tribes were descended. Tacitus (Germania, chapter 2) explicitly mentions the names of these Germanic tribes, claiming descent from Mannus)in both these cultures. Thus, Experts such as Campbell Grieson, Monier-Willams were of this opinion. Also the great Johann Christoph Adelung (8 August 1732 – 10 September 1806) was a German grammarian and philologist firmly belived (like many other experts) that Kashmir Vallkey is the home of the Aryan Race.
Yes indeed most Indians are Aryans and the Indian Manu (the word Munus or Man arises from Manu) is the father of the Aryan Race. The Kashmiri Pandits are the direct descendents of Manu.
The Germans accoording to their ancient legends are descendents of Manus (Manu). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.109.99 ( talk) 16:36, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
To Mannus they assign three sons, from whose names, they say, the coast tribes are called Ingaevones; those of the interior, Herminones; all the rest, Istaevones. Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by antiquity, assert that the god had several descendants, and the nation several appellations, as Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii, and that these are nine old names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.125.14.17 ( talk) 20:58, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I may definitely be born without brains, and that is why I would require you to provide the exact reference information from the "ancient Indian texts" before posting anything. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.139.194.230 (
talk)
05:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with Aryans or Aryavarta or anything that you are trying to write here. All wikipedia needs is valid references supporting your words. This is fair, isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.197.63.70 ( talk) 19:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I found this discussion interesting. It is clear and known without doubt (read ancient Indian texts) that Kashmir was a part of Aryavarta (the abode of the Aryan Race), thus I see no controversy. Also expressing things honestly is not vandalism amongst people with brains.
Just because the history of Aryavarta (abode of Aryans) does not suit some people it can not be made into vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.175 ( talk) 19:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I do agree that many people are sensitive to the word Aryan. Clearly the Nazis misused this word and Indians have nothing to do with this. Thus Indian can not and will not remove the word Aryan and the Swastika from their culture. Most people of Aryavarta (India) are pure Aryans. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.167.239.161 (
talk) 17:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Indeed the Aryan word has a bad reputation due to the beastly Nazis. The Indians (including Kashmiri Brahmins who are surely of the Aryan Race) have nothing to do with this. So we can not change olur history to please people, but just look at the truth, which no one can change. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
65.88.88.175 (
talk)
17:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Marriage outside is banned by the Bhagwad Gita, to maintain the purity: 'With the preponderance of vice, Krsna, the women of the family become corrupt and with the corruption of women, O descendant of Vrsni there ensues an intermixture of castes' ..I 41 'Admixture of blood damns the destoyers of the race as well as the race itself, Deprived of the offerings of rice and water the manes of their race also fall.' ..42 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.175 ( talk) 15:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
One might add that all ancient texts describe the colour of the Aryan race from light to brown. Kashmir is cold thus most people are lighter a climatic reason for colour.
It is improbable that the Aryans would have from Central Asia to other parts of India and back again to Central Asia, as Kashmir is Central Asia. For political reason the Aryan invasion theory is being pushed into India. One can assume that India (parts of Central Asia as well) and Iran are the first known home of the Aryan Race, based on authentic literature.
I would read the Rigveda for Aryans and also Avesta. In addition a visit to Iran might help as well. Read: I am Dariush, the great king, the king of kings The king of many countries and many people The king of this expansive land, The son of Wishtaspa of Achaemenid, Persian, the son of a Persian, 'Aryan', from the Aryan race "From the Darius the Great's Inscription in Naqshe-e-Rostam" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.175 ( talk) 20:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
What the hell is a pure Aryan?
There is an element of indian cultural but not racial makeup called Arya?
Pure Aryan racial element is pure tatti.
In cambodia, hinduism was called arya dharma. Where was the aryan aspect there.
U keep putting pure racial aryan gu here it will be deleted.
In all Buddhist countries Hinduism and Buddhism are known as AryaDharmas (the religion of the Aryans) as Buddha was an Aryan. His holiness Dalai Lama refers to India as Aryatara (the Star of the Aryans). It is as simple as that. People are trying to meddle in the culture of Aryavarta (India) as this does not suit them. Indians will never oblige as in India, "Satyameva Jayate". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.175 ( talk) 21:17, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Sannuki 65.96.165.73 ( talk) 03:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I deleted a large section taken from this website, which explicitly forbids people from reproducing its material without permission. (If someone can show that they do give us permission, though, we can reinstate and wikify that material.) QuartierLatin1968 18:50, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't think this article is NPOV... at all... it reads like propaganda.
What is the basis of the claim that Sanskrit originated in Kashmir?
as written in the article,suresh raina playing for indian cricket team is a kashmiri pandit..as far as i know,he is not,he belongs to UP..its just that his surname is raina and most kashmiris are raina.. Chhaviraina 12:50, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
These kinds of statements are useless unless a SOURCE is provided to verify them... otherwise they are merely baseless propaganda. I will continue to revert these POV edits until someone can provide a legitimate source to back up their claims. Please also look up the term "ethnic cleansing" in a dictionary to understand the full implications of its meaning. Thanks.
It's unfortunate that you do not see ethnic cleansing of Pandits as part of their history, but as some kind of propoganda. The Holocaust is an intrinsic part of Jewish history not a propoganda. Unfortunately for Kashmiri Pandits, there has been hardly any media attention or universal outrage resulting in comments like these.
In the early 1990s, Islamic militants publicly announced that there was no place for Pandits in Kashmir as they not only represented the "Kafirs" but were also symbolic of the Indian presence in Kashmir. Shortly afterwards hundreds of Pandits were singled out and brutally massacared in a carefully planned and excuted campaign of terror and murder. Those who survived, or had the chance, fled for their lives to other parts of India. The mass exodus of Pandits as a result of the carnage inflicted on them by Islamic terrorists resulted in Kashmir being now almost completely a muslim territory. Pandits, the original inhabitants of Kashmir for thousands of years meanwhile languish in poverty and indifference. This, my dear friend, is ethnic cleansing in any language.
Furthermore, Suresh Raina is a Kashmiri born and brought up in UP, just as Nehru was.
One thing should be pretty clear that it is proven that kashmiri pundits are fleding toward india for last seven or eight centuries. I think most of indians who have kashmiri surnames may have some sort of connection with those fleding kashmiri pundits, though today these indians with kashmiri surnames have hardly kashmiri features and skin tone because of the mixing with local indians. (From Son Of Kashmir) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.69.21.94 ( talk) 17:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, if you provide some sources verifying these claims, I have no qualms with you referring to this movement as "ethnic cleansing." Thanks.
I have deleted the sentence "without doubt that Kashmiri Pandits belong to the Aryan race..." and also the sentence following it. There is no proof for an "Aryan race" every existing. And if some ethnic groups called themselves "arya" or aryan, it does not necessarily mean it was an ethnic designation like English, German, or Chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.199.154 ( talk) 16:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
If Suresh Raina is not a Kashmiri Pandit then all future generations of Kashmiri Pandits who have now migrated outside the valley today, a generation or two later those people will aslo be called from Delhi, UP or where ever. Please dont get into such disputes. Deleting the article from a website is another act of foolishness. Let the world know more and more about the community. Keep on like this and the community will disentigrate. Rahul Raina —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.161.68.3 ( talk) 16:27, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
External Link
Atulsnischal 09:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
came accres this article and would like to give my opinion and improve it a bit. as regards the above issues;
1. User IP (67...) plzz give reference for Sanskrit origin of kashmir as asked by dreandruid.
2. dreandruid i agree with you abt the social and political instability in kashmir, but that was not the cause of migration of pandits. the cause of the migration of pandits was that thousands of them were killed by the muslim rulers or forcefully converted. hundreds of temples and learning centres were destroyed. since many pandits were patronised by these temples and learning centres they lost their livlihood. this loss of livlihood coupled with the severe danger to the life of their families forced them to leave the valley. this has been recorded by historians including muslim historians. i recommed you to read tarakh-i-farishta by mhmd qasim which records these chronicles of temple destructions. I am going to remove this political instability issue altogether from this article as it is not the chief reason for the pandit migration. the instability was a fact but its related to the history of kashmir and not kashmiri pandits.
again i do not agree with your choice of words of "gradual migration" or even the other user's choice of "forced migration". Looking at some references cited, since reliable sources UN and us House have called it ethnic cleansing, I would go with ethnic cleansing. We have to use the terminology as used by reliable sources. our words would imply orignal research.
3. yes i agree, some sultans could have patronized the pandits a bit, but the in last 700-800 yrs... but most of them hv been hostile to them and hv subjected them to genocide and forced conversions. so i think we hv to go by wht most of them did...basically wht the kashmiri pandits went through during most of the muslim rule. i hope all of you agree wit this.
3. Again plzz note tht this article isnt abt hindus in general. this is abt the atrocities committed specifically on kashmiri pandits (who just happen to be hindus) by the fundamental muslims. this has been documented and cannot be ignored. its happening even today.
4. the article is missing info abt kashmiri pandits forced to live in refugee camps even today and govt not taking strong action abt their condition. i am adding the same
5. with reference to the civil war mentioned by dreandruid..the civil war also consisted of forced conversion and killing of pandits. During civil war around 25000 pandits were converted to shia faith and thousands were killed. The property of the Hindus was confiscated. And those who were allowed to live had to pay Jazia which was revived by Musa Raina.With Musa Raina and Shamsuddin Iraqi, the Shia preacher, came back to Kashmir with re-doubled enthusiasm for the propagation of his faith. Not content with peaceful preachings, forcible methods came to be practised.
Alishah, son of sikander continued the holocaust.
-Thank you for the lengthy response. Although we may still disagree on some of the historical issues, I agree with you that those issues should be left to a separate page on Early Modern Kashmiri History, not on a page on Kashmiri Pandits. Maybe the paragraph on that early history should be left to a minimum on this page so as to highlight the other sections and leave decisions regarding historical interpretation to other wiki pages and the readers themselves.
Deandruid
06:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I didnt put in the Sanskrit part. Anyway thanks guys for your edits. The article looks much better now. To the above user (not dreandruid), I chose forcible migration because there seemed to be a dispute. In fact I gave links from very reliable sources which refer to the issue as ethnic cleansing. To dreandruid, could you please say why you had changed the word 'ethnic cleansing' again to gradual migration? I think the above user is correct in saying that we should use words by a reliable source. In fact it was also my mistake that I used 'forcible migration' instead. Do you have any specific reason of not using those words used by sources like UN and US House of Representatives? I am changing it back, if you have any reason to not accept those words, I think we can discuss and revert back to the current version. In any case thanks both you guys for helping shape up the article better!! 67.184.103.51 00:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed the reference to "ethnic clensing" in the first paragraph because, as I understand it, the UN ad US House of Representatives are referrring to the ethnic clensing of Kashmiri Pandits in the 1990s, not warfare of the 14th century. Later on in the article there is a whole subsection on ethnic clensing (where it is also directly connected to events in the 90s). Deandruid 06:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I deleted "There is mention of the Dardic people, who lived outside the valley of Kashmir. The Kashmiris are not Dards." because it contradicts
Dard_people and I added the link disputing the Aryan origin of Kashmiris.
[1]
Dacool7 ( talk) 17:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no doubt the Kashmiri society is imbalanced today without the pundits.it is like an ecosystem which has lost some species critical for its survival.It would also be foolish to say that they have not been wronged. They have suffered a lot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.248.65.67 ( talk) 00:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
At the end the Kashmiris, are well-built, goodlooking intelligent people, thus many countries and people want to mould their history to use them. The conclusion is Kashmir, is India and also Central asia. Most of Central Asia, India and Iran has a pure Aryan past. This can not be denied or removed. How can you hope to separate Kashmir from say Tajikstan, when they are next door neighbours and change history- http://www.payvand.com/news/05/dec/1190.html
Yes Tajikstan is to close to Kashmir separate it from Kashmir. Both are pure aryan people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.153 ( talk) 17:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
have some least bit of shame :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.131.26 ( talk) 07:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
http://www.islam-watch.org/index.html
need I say more about the destructive history of muslims?
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There is no citation of him being a Kashmiri Pandit, neither has he acknowledged such a fact in an interview or the like. Please remove him from the list of famous Pandits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthro Freak ( talk • contribs) 13:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
The Kashmiri Brahmins are certainly pure Aryans. However Kashmiri Brahmins like other Indians can not refer to the Andronovo culture, This is an alien term and no part of the Ridvedic or Zoroastrian texts mention these people. Indians prefer that outsiders not interpret our history, as our history is on solid roots. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.174 ( talk) 20:28, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
The Kashmiri Brahmins have never been referred to as Dards (See Rajataringini). The Dards are the neighbours of Kashmiris and do have similarities racially and linguistically with the Kashmiris, however, there is clear division between theser two groups of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.200 ( talk) 23:53, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Might add some people in the West are trying hard to create a new racial and cultural history of the Kahmiri Brahmins, which serves the future goals of these scholars. They want to create a mixture in racial and cultural sense. The Kashmiri Brahmins have a solid history and also go first by the Rigveda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.200 ( talk) 17:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Undoubtedly the purest members of the Aryan Race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.164.12.221 ( talk) 08:26, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Some people on our planet want to mould history to their agenda. In India it is impossible to achieve. Kashmir is a part of India which links India to Central Asia. Kashmiri language spoken in its original form is too close to Rigvedic Sanskrit the mother of all Aryan languages. A genuine Kashmiri Brahmin is certainly a pure Aryan and according to many experts world wide (including Germany) Kashmir is the original home of the Aryan Race. This should not bother any one as the Aryans of India are a great culture and civilization. Also I would mention the origin of each person in India is based on the Gotras and not on any other picked up name. Hari Om Mishra (Misra means mix in Sanskrit) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.155 ( talk) 22:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
{{quote}many have left their homeland due to terrorism and anti-Hindu violence in Kashmir and have settled in various parts of India.}}
The Brahmins of Kashmir are the purest represntative of the Aryan Race and the Aryan Race originated most likely in Kashmir. some insecure people are trying to change this but have no possiblity to do this.
Tharki Paddey Kise Insecure Bolta hai. HOW ARE THEY THE PUREST REPRESENTATION OF ARYAN RACE? Start with that. Kailash Kher is an "aryan" Even By Desi Pantone skin color metric they guy is not gora. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.165.73 ( talk) 05:05, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
"purest of Aryans"... really? And all that other unsourced stuff... this article should be scrapped.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.166.36 ( talk) 18:29, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Muslim militants targeted and started killing Kashmiri hindus also called Hindu pandits.Some of these pandits killed where renowned scientist,doctors,engineers, ,politician,authors.Muslim militants did this to make Kashmir total Hindu free territory and govern Islam Muslim rule in Kashmir. [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajgupta67 ( talk • contribs) 21:54, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Okay, if we are to have a discussion about history, let's do it. First of all, if you are going to give a chronology, please use a reliable source...like one that doesn't jump over several centuries at a time and clearly has a pro-Hindu bent.
That being said, lets move straight on to Sultan Sikander. He was the seventh hereditary successor to the Sultanate throne of Kashmir. The first Sultan was originally a Ladakhi Buddhist prince named Rinchana who claimed the throne in 1320 after the devastation and retreat of the Chaghtai warlord Zulju. He converted to Islam while on the throne and changed his name to Shadru'd-Din. Sikander gained the throne after 69 years of local Muslim ruler -- no invading going on. However, during these 69 years there was tension between Hindu and Muslim communities, as many Central Asian muslims migrated to Kashmir to escape the Chaghtai and later Timurid conquests in further northwest. Sikander himself was a very nasty ruler. He was heavily influenced by his cheif minister Shaifu'd-Din who was a zelous Sunni muslim who convinced Sikander to impose strict shari'a law, jiziya (tax on non-Muslims), destroyed several temples and forced conversion. It is interesting to note that Shaifu'd-Din (the zealous chief minister) was himself a Brahmin Kashmiri Pandit (Suhabhatta) who converted to Islam. Also, several of Sikander's generals were Hindu and his wives -(whose children inhereted the throne) were as well.
We know much of this information from Jonaraja's Rajatarangini (which by the way was a Sanskrit text produced by a Kashmiri Pandit under the patronage of Sultan Zainu'l-'Abidin). In fact, many Kashmiri Pandits were employed in the court of Sultan Zainu'l-'Abidin to produce Sanskrit texts. And he was only 7 years after Sikander and reversed all of his anti-Hindu policies.
All this is to say that Kashmir was not pummelled by Muslim invaders who took over, looted and pillaged. There was a stable, centralized, native Muslim Sultanate that ruled Kashmir with stability for 150 years. Yes, some of these Sultans were oppressive to Hindu population, but several also patronized the building of temples and the authoring of Sanskrit texts.
On a completely separate note, scholars like Ronald Davidson poses strong arguments that many Brahmins migrated for patronage from weakening to stronger courts in North India from the 7th to 12th centuries during the rapid turnover of regional rulers -- all of this before Muslims were a major presence. The last major expansionist ruler of Kashmir before the Sultanate was Lalitaditya in the 9th century. Most history shows that the Kashmiri court suffered great infighting after his rule, and within two centuries it was in shambles. I have little doubt that many Pandits fled Kashmir at that point to find stability and patronage.
All of this is to say that the reasons for early Kashmiri Pandit diaspora is not clear, and the basis for "Muslim invasions" is tenuous. Hindu oppression certainly occurred (under Sikander for sure), but so did Hindu patronage and temple building. In fact, archives show that Akbar (centuries later) even noted how many Hindu temples from before Sultanate continued to exist in his own time.
However, as I mentioned before, I do clearly admit and condemn the incredible violence against Kashmiri Pandits during the 1990s. However, contemporary politics should not blind us to the realities of the past. Deandruid 03:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)deandruid
Please see http://www.kashmir-information.com/chronology.html for a brief chronology of invasions. In addition to this it is well documented that Sikander Butshikan of Sayyed dynasty ((1389-1413) killed several kashmiri pandits and forced many of them to convert. He was a known iconoclast who firmly intended to and finally did establish the Rule of Islam in Kashmir. So an invasion in which Native religious icons are destroyed and an attempt is made to establish a rule of islam can be considered a Muslim Invasion. For example, in a HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO, a thai invasion of italy in which churches are destroyed and buddha statues are installed and the native christians asked to leave can be termed as a buddhist invastion In any case, the religious inclination of the invaders was Muslim which is a well known fact. I have provided references for Sikander's invasions. In fact there are were many rulers who persecuted the pandits like Ali shah, khokha (sp?) etc. The migrations of the Kashmiri Pandits have been classified by historians, UN and US house of rep as forced..so calling them gradual migrations is wrong and could imply that they might have migrated for economic or other reasons. I guess we cannot change the facts or twist the truth just to make it NPOV, its just like saying the jews gradually migrated out of israel without giving reasons for the exodus or saying that the holocaust is "believed to have happened" because some people do not believe in its veracity. In fact the migrations can be called "ethnic cleansing" as referred to by several historians, UN, Amnesty as well As Rep. Pallone. However, I am not sure whether to use this term or not.
A couple months back I edited this article to provide a more NPOV regarding Kashmiri Pandit migration. However, it has been edited back to read "forced to migrate to other parts of India over the centuries due to countless Muslim invasions." Three problems arise with this statement. First, migration happened, but how do we know it was "forced" way back when (this does not include the 1990s, etc.)? Second, there was massive political instability in 12th-15th centuries Kashmir, both internal and external. "Invasions" cannot be so directly blamed. Third, Zulju did in fact wipe out the Valley; however, why is his invasion labeled "Muslim" rather than simply Turko-Mongol or Chagtai? That's like saying when the UK enters a war it is an "Anglican invasion" simply because the UK has an official religion, i.e. the monarch is the head of the church. I don't know why his conjectured religious affiliation must be mentioned as part of his military exploits which seem to have no religious purpose.
Deandruid
09:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)deandruid
Please people, we need wikipedia for information and background. We don't need views when they are not asked for. The title here is "Kashmiri Pandit"; that means we should know more about their beliefs, habits, and history. This should not include who they hate. It is possible to make a timeline that involves the Pandits - not their enemies.
The present situation is the result of thousands of years of history. No person 'continually inhabits'. The term 'Aryan' should be be removed from this article - unless someone can show us a living aryan. The Kashmir region has had peaceful and violent times; in the violent times people suffered. To blame is to invite more hate. If this article blames the Brits, the UN, muslims, Moguls, Buddhists, Hindus, terrorism -then what is left to tell about the Kashmiri Pandit's interesting history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.210.60.214 ( talk) 00:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I see that this has been downgraded to a C and that there is lot of whitewashing going on in terms of the historical persecution that the Kashmiri Pandits have suffered. OK, do we all agree on the facts surrounding the martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur ji? Please cross reference with Wikipedia. If we agree on this one instance of historical persecution then I will move to the next one. We will build this one step at a time if we have to. Peeth ( talk) 23:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)Peeth
Clearly an Aryan language linked to Rigvedic Sanskrit. Please also note the history of Kashmir is clear and without any ambiguity. This Aryan Land has the Rajataringini. Nevertheless, in this age of disinformation many foreigners who have an agenda are using the media to target the layman. Note the word Ju is the corrupted form of the suffix Ji which is added to name of an Aryan gentleman. This Ji becomes Zei in Afghanistan. For example Khilji or Khilzei. Also no genuine word Jew exists and it is the corrupted form of the word Jude. What makes languages similar is not the sound of one or two words (with different meanings) in different languages, but the sound and meaning being similar of most words in different languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.153 ( talk) 16:51, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Note must be taken that like most Indians the Kashmiri Brahmins go by their own religious and other historical texts. The Brahmins are Kashmir are distinct in ethnicity and are pure Aryans. However, they will never accept foreign interpretations of their race or culture. No mention of the so called Andronovo culture exists in the Kashmiri or other Indian texts. We just hear Aryan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 ( talk) 00:01, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
The origin of Kashmiri Brahmins is simple: They originated from Manu (the word Man arises from this) the first Aryan. Next the first book of the Aryans the Rigveda (which mentions the Aryan Race) was compiled in this area. Kashmir has always been a region of Aryavarta (the abode of the Aryans). Actually Ariana and Aryadesa were also regions of Aryavarta.
I might add to this day Kashmiri is close to Rigvedic Sanskrit (the mother of all Aryan languages), though it has picked up some Arabic (Semitic) words due to the influence of Islam in the Valley. The language spoken by an Orthodox Hindus rarely if ever has Arabic in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 ( talk) 18:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
There is even an effort to make the Kashmiri Brahmins by false propaganda in Semites (Jewish-Arabs). The Kashmiri people, genetically, liguistically and the Kashmiri Brahmins religiously and culturaly as well have nothing to do with Semites. Also the highest ever reported presence o haplogroup of R1a1* is in Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharia tribe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 ( talk) 21:48, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
"Most Kashmiri Pandits are devout Shaivites, however many Kashmiri Pandit families who had migrated into other Indian territories have been ardent Vaishnavites as well." What does this mean? Does this mean that the Pandits converted to Vaishnavaism after their immigration? Frédéric.Cabrolier ( talk) 02:07, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
This article relies far, far too heavily on one potentially biased source, ie; the jkmigrant website. I am not saying that it is wrong, but it definitely needs a much wider base of sources and those should not themselves be getting their information from that website. For example, do the UN have anything to say regarding these issues? - Sitush ( talk) 17:39, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
I have just removed the Pre-Islamic history section. It has remained uncited for a long time and some of it looks suspiciously like copyvios and close paraphrasng. Let's start over, from the top.
I'll be doing the same with any other entirely uncited sections, sorry. - Sitush ( talk) 14:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Why, yes, it is indeed WP standard pratice to remove uncited material and replace it with cited material. Why would uncited material be superior to cited? And why should we trust uncited material? The material clearly came from somewhere, and it needs to be clearly source to be credible, and show that it's not just someone's opinion or fiction. Since this is important to you, I'd imagine you could knock out a couple well-cited paragraphs in an hour or so, which is not a huge time commitment. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 15:18, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
The magazine is online. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 14:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Just copying the link here so that we don't forget to cite to it (in a non-copyvio way) as we move forward: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA20/013/2003/en/94d329bd-d713-11dd-b0cc-1f0860013475/asa200132003en.html - India/Kashmir: Safeguard the lives of civilians, March 2003. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 15:15, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
Raj Zutshi is a Kashmiri Pandit as per 1, 2. Please revert the edit. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 16:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
I have just removed the following citation, since the work appears to consist of at least three volumes (the originals from 1829 are in full view at www.archive.org, if anyone is interested) - <ref>Muhammad Qãsim Hindû Shãh Firishta : Tãrîkh-i-Firishta, translated by John Briggs under the title "History of the Rise of the Mahomedan Power in India." First published in 1829, New Delhi Reprint 1981.</ref>. There may be useful content in it, somewhere, but it is very old. - Sitush ( talk) 16:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
I'll try to get to it later, but wanted to make sure we don't forget to rebuild the "Cuisine" section. Several promising hits on gBooks we can use to footnote that section: [2]. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 17:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
As of now, the page has lost a lot of contents, and in deed needs top down rewrite. As an example, the history of Pandits prior to Muslim prosecutions is removed, details like that most of Pandits live in refugee camps is somehow completely missed out, and so on. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 08:31, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
The User ‘Sitush’ has (repeatedly) been removing content from the article. The following sections, which formed a very large portion of the article, were removed entirely by that user: Pre-Islamic History, Migration to the Indo-Gangetic Plain (1400-1900), List of Kashmiri Pandit refugee campsites, Culture – particularly the section on Cuisine, and Surnames (including how many of them came into being). These changes have made the article less informative. In the interest of those who wish to learn about aspects of Kashmiri Pandits other than their political problem, I have been trying to restore the original article, which was more comprehensive and balanced. However, the User ‘Sitush’ and some other users are extremely uncooperative. Even if information such topics as cuisine and culture is poorly referenced, it must not be deleted because such information could have been provided by individuals with first-hand knowledge. The authenticity of such information can be maintained by allowing other users to freely object to and edit specific statements in these sections. However, deletion of more than half of the original article is unjustifiable. Knowledgeable users other than those who claim to be ‘cleaning up’ the article by removing content must be allowed to express themselves. I would advise ‘Sitush’ to add to the existing article and refrain from deleting entire sections. I would also request other users to protect the original, more comprehensive article from politically-motivated persons who are attempting to check the Kashmiri Pandits' freedom of expression on the internet – This note has been written by the User 'Yardang' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.160.178.182 ( talk) 09:20, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Why all hindus from kashmir valley are called kashmiri pandits, large number of these hindus from valley belong to castes other than brahmins but these days every hindu from valley is called pandit, it is insane. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.176.146.23 ( talk) 18:43, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
There is some incorrect information written on the page regarding "Kashmiri Pandits" but it is protected, so don't know how to edit it. Anyway, know how? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AvatarNavi ( talk • contribs) 23:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
The User ‘Sitush’ has (repeatedly) been removing content from the article. The following sections, which formed a very large portion of the article, were removed entirely by that user: Pre-Islamic History, Migration to the Indo-Gangetic Plain (1400-1900), List of Kashmiri Pandit refugee campsites, Culture – particularly the section on Cuisine, and Surnames (including how many of them came into being). These changes have made the article less informative. In the interest of those who wish to learn about aspects of Kashmiri Pandits other than their political problem, I have been trying to restore the original article, which was more comprehensive and balanced. However, the User ‘Sitush’ and some other users are extremely uncooperative. Even if information such topics as cuisine and culture is poorly referenced, it must not be deleted because such information could have been provided by individuals with first-hand knowledge. The authenticity of such information can be maintained by allowing other users to freely object to and edit specific statements in these sections. However, deletion of more than half of the original article is unjustifiable. Knowledgeable users other than those who claim to be ‘cleaning up’ the article by removing content must be allowed to express themselves. I would advise ‘Sitush’ to add to the existing article and refrain from deleting entire sections. I would also request other users to protect the original, more comprehensive article from politically-motivated persons who are attempting to check the Kashmiri Pandits' freedom of expression on the internet. Yardang ( talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.160.178.182 ( talk) 09:23, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Request to Sitush and any other user who was involved in removal of unreferenced content from the article: Please use the book "The Kashmiri Pandits" by Henny Sender to expand this article. ( Yardang ( talk) 07:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC))
No Mongols never entered the Kashmir Valley this is more than well documented. Zulju was surely not a Mongol this is proven beyond any doubt by Kashmiri texts of that period. The Mughals were not Mongols but a Central Asian Aryan-Mongol mix as a result of the conquest of many regions of Central Asia by the Mongols. Kashmiri history is is clear thus there is no latitude for manipulation.
Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) are one of the most homogenous people on our planet. There is heavy politics involved to show them otherwise. Since ages a few out-of-caste marriages have occuirred in this community but the progeny of this often develops into a new caste such as the Bohrs of Kashmir. Indeed these people (Kashmiri Brahmins) are the first known Rigvedic Central Asian Aryans. I agree Kashmiri Brahmins only go by Rigveda (which was composed in this region) and Rajataringin.
View of Pt. Lokesh Nath Zadoo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 ( talk) 18:31, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
This community is amongst the first known worshippers of Agni. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.153 ( talk) 15:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
The Arabs never made it even close to the Kingdom of Kashmir let alone the Kashmir Valley. Also Mahmud of Ghazni (Turk) was twice defeated by Hindu Kashmir. Kashmir has a solid history in the Rajataringini. Even at the height of their power the Arabs could only make it to Sind and Multan on the Indian subconitent. They were then defeated soundly by Lalitaditya and Bappa Rawal. For further reading see-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/416177/The-ChachnamaAn-Ancient-History-of-Sind
http://www.ummah.net/history/scholars/BIRUNI.html
If people want to change the history of this region as this does not suit therm, they surely can not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 ( talk) 22:28, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Kashmiris do not have any origin confusion, though attempts are being made by foreigners and their plants to create a confusion in order to serve the foreign agenda. Most Kashmiri Muslims are converts to Islam from Hindus. The Kashmiri to this day speak a Rigvedic based language and the Kashmiri Brahmins worship the Rigveda, the first book of the Aryan Race. all is done in from of Agun (fire). Also Kashmiris are not Dards (study the Rajataringini), while the Dards their neighbors are Aryan as well. Kashmiri and shina is pretty close. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 ( talk) 23:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Also the Martand Sun Temple has nothing Greek in it (The Greeks or Macedonians never made it to Kashmir, read Rajataringini) it has been mentioned as pure Aryan Kashmiri architecture.
No Andronovo culture is mentioned in the Rigveda or Avesthan texts thus this Western planted term must be ignored by the Indians. Rameshwar Prasad Mishra
Some politically motivated people want to make Zulju, as a Mongol by fake data fot their long term agenda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 ( talk) 00:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
There is no Zulju but Zulji and it is well established that he was not a Mongol. Why the Mongol is being planted into Kashmir is for long term politics and agendas. It is well known the Rigveda was compiled in this region and neighboring areas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.21.10.22 ( talk) 22:38, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
We know the origin of Sitush and Salvio giuliano and what they are up to. They can not succeed against us Kashmiri Pandits we are ahead of them. We know our history.
Rakesh Khar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.155 ( talk) 18:54, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
@ Sitush: You have reverted the population figures that I quoted out of Lawrence (Oxford Press). The figures for 1985 are clearly stated in the book. What is your concern ?? Ambar 18:00, 12 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki ( talk • contribs)
POPULATION FIGURES
Am planning to include the following figures in the article, which I plan to convert into a table once I get the 1991 & 2010 census figures from the Goverment (its a slow process to get info from the govt, so for now I will mention them as text only. Trust we have consensus. Pls reply Sitush. Thanks. Ambar 17:55, 13 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki ( talk • contribs)
Would like to add the family names of Kashmiri Pandits to this article. [3]
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-- Reply to Matthew & Sitush --
Ambar 15:40, 20 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki ( talk • contribs)
-- Am planning to add the following section to the Kashmiri Pandit article --
It is said that the original names of Kashmiri Pandits were structured based on Gotra. According to Anand Koul, the gotra-structured names were initially restricted to three principal groups - Bhat, Pandit & Razdan.
Today Kashmiri Pandits have a wide spectrum of fascinating surnames which represent some intrinsic ingenuity as well as some splash of nasty humour. Over a period of time these nicknames become associated with Kashmiri families & eventually get adapted as surnames. It is worth noting that the number of such nicknames associated with the surname Koul is the largest of all, thereby also suggesting that almost all Kashmiri Pandits were Kouls and were later on subdivided based on their nicknames which eventually became their surnames. [2]
-- further update --
Dear Sitush, am now providing the correct ISBN (earlier one was a mistake) for the book 'Exploring Kashmiri Pandit' ISBN: 978-0963479860 (978-0963479860). Can you please verify if this is acceptable. I think this would make the source more reliable.
My primary interest is in getting the following information up on the Kashmiri Pandit page, in order to explain how the naming of Kashmiri Pandits has over time resulted in several surnames, which may have originated from an original common surname (this is hypethesis & I will not be mentioning this on the page). The limited content would be as follows, [Details commented out by
Sitush because the sectioning is messing up the talk page layout. Contribution is still visible in edit pane]
I think this article is too inclined towards the history of Kashmir & how Kashmiri Pandits were forced to leave the valley. Feel that this article needs better balance, & that can be done only via a mjor reformatting and editing of content. I plan to create a draft in my sandbox area and would request users to have a look (maybe another day or so). We need to talk more specifically about the Kashmiri Pandit community, their specific history (& not the whole history of Kashmir), & their customs, music, literature, famous kings / rulers etc. A lot of content (irrelevant) would need removal and more relavant and sourced contect would need to be added. -Ambar 18:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki ( talk • contribs)
As for my response to that reverted edit, well, the 1931 census was not reliable and the 1981 census did not have a caste etc element. In fact, there were no such censuses between 1931 and 2011. - Sitush ( talk) 17:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
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I recently removed Urdu from the language list, but the edit was undone by User:Sitush. The language spoken by Kashmiri Pandits, as the name suggests is Kashmiri. Apart from it, they speak Hindi. Some may argue that they speak Urdu also. So instead of going deep in this Hindi-Urdu dispute, I may suggest Sitush to read about Hindustani language. Hindustani itself means Hindi+Urdu. So there is no need of mentioning Hindi or Urdu when Hindustani is already present. SubQuad ( talk) 15:27, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I have recently removed this for a second time, following Fowler&fowler also removing it here. Basically, what the State of Oregon thinks about the KPs is trivial, and I am sure that there have been plenty of other legislatures who have passed motions related to the KPs and similar communities. I had thought that Fowler&fowler had explained his reasoning here but it seems not, so now you know. - Sitush ( talk) 07:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Totally disagreed with removal by Fowler&Fowler. The Oregon resolution is present in the article from a long time and the resolution is definitely relevant to the article.
If other resolutions have also been passed, then they can also be mentioned in the article. But removal of this resolution from the article is nothing but vandalism. SubQuad ( talk) 15:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Here is that resolution: [4]. I don't think that it was a good faith edit. It is a clear case of vandalism. The content shud be restored. SubQuad ( talk) 11:39, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
We are not here to decide whether state in US has the right to interfere in the foreign policy or not. Its just a resolution, not a kind of intervention. Btw, states in US are given much more rights that countries like India or Pakistan. They enjoy much greater autonomy. In fact they have a unique right of separation from the union unlike the vast majority of world nations.
See what reason was given by Fowler&Fowler while removing the content : "Since when did Oregonians become experts on South Asia. 9 out of 10 couldn't spot Kashmir on a map to save their lives"
Pandits were targetted by militants specifically by militants. Hence the resolution was passed. Its totally irrelevant to discuss whether they are highly experts or not! I am restoring the content. I think we have discussed it enough. SubQuad ( talk) 06:29, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
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The history of Kashmir is well documented and Parvez Diwan knows nothing of this history and is not a recognized intellect. He is favored by the Semites as he is linked to them.
This edit has been reverted with edit summary. Can we discuss these, please: they are mostly poorly written and poorly sourced. . The edit summary is incorrect. Neither the whole input was poorly written, and nor poorly sourced. Some portion lack reference, but there were some very presented information too. In that case what could have done– remove the unreferenced portions and keep the good points, but the whole input has been reverted, which is discouraging! -- Tito Dutta ✉ 10:35, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Let's start at the top, with the Etymology section. The edit included sources (good!). These were Merriam-Webster dictionary, Walter (1895) and Pervez Dewan (1996). The first involves original research, since it is a definition of "pandit" that makes no connection to "Kashmiri Pandit"; the second is too old by far (there is a pretty good consensus on this, spread across hundreds of Indian community articles); the third was discussed at length with the contributor but we never got a satisfactory resolution regarding whether or not Dewan could be considered reliable. He certainly is not a linguist or philologist, and therefore is not an ideal source. At the end of that section, an unsourced statement was added, viz: "The term Kashmiri Pandits, different from the general hindus of Kashmir, are said to be originally Saraswat Brahmans." - this is a part of the POV that the contributor keeps trying to insert without ever sourcing it. It may well be correct, but it is exactly the sort of thing that leads to edit wars unless sourced.
A section - "Religion and Society" - then followed. Despite having read WP:MOSHEAD, per past discussions, the contributor's heading is incorrectly formatted. Easy to fix, sure, but then we have the dreaded Walter once more, and we have an unsourced statement, "Their branch of shiva worship is known as Kashmir Saivism."
Do you want me to carry on listing the issues? - Sitush ( talk) 13:03, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
So, regardless of etymology, we need a definition of "Kashmiri Pandit" that works and that puts them in the context of other Hindu communities from the Kashmir region etc. A past discussion here saw claims that all Kashmiri Hindus are Pandits but this was never adequately verifiable and the unsourced statement - "The term Kashmiri Pandits, different from the general hindus of Kashmir, are said to be originally Saraswat Brahmans" - doesn't help progress this either in one direction or the other.
I think it best to sort out the two sections that I have raised here before moving on to the other sections that were removed, otherwise there will likely be a lot of moving targets due to assumptions being made regarding sources etc. - Sitush ( talk) 12:13, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
I came across this ndtv link (dopesheet) on Kashmiri Pandit history and their society. It puts a few things in perspective & has a few interesting points that could be used in the KP article, specially in the lede or the history section. "The term Pandit was given specifically to the Hindu Brahmin of the valley during the 15th & 16th centuries, in deference to their high education & economic status." http://www.ndtvmi.com/b5/B5_Dopesheets/Tanvi_Dope.pdf The article also has some information on Kashmiri Pandit cuisine (& kashmiri cuisine in general) & also about the dresses worn by pandits and Kashmiri muslims. Do share your opinions if this source can be used to improve the article. - Ambar wiki ( talk) 13:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Came across the following link http://www.siraurelstein.org.uk/people.html which talks about quotes from notable authors on Kashmiri Pandits. Particularly the one from Pandit Anand Kaul is interesting and provides some information on KPs & their history. Unfortunately the quotes from other authors are rather racist & can be ignored, even though they would be very apt in the Indian context. Would appreciate if you could have a quick look and suggest if these sources (or rather these types of sources) would make sense for future reference. - Ambar wiki ( talk) 14:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
There are several new articles on the internet that clearly explain (in so many words) that the Hindoos of Kashmir are known as Pandits. The one by Al Jazeera here can be used to check and verify this fact. While a more accurate statement would be that the Brahmins of Kashmir (valley & not the state) are known as Pandits, however the Kashmir valley has only brahmins left and hence they all were called Pandits. That is the current nomenclature, which is also confirmed in the following report called Code of Federal regulations: Title 10: Energy written by the Nuclear Regulatory Comission, US, Department of energy, which says about Kashmiris "The Hindu community of this region, the so called Kashmiri Pandits". - Ambar ( talk) 15:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
User Chhaviraina has wrongly classified this article as WP:NPOV. He has also made baseless and unsubstantiated claims that Suresh Raina is not a Kashmiri Pandit, when in actuality he very mush is a self professed Kashmiri Pandit. Kindly read the following article over here and another one linked here. Since Raina received a momento for the KP community, as an acknowledgement for bringing honor to the community, that is simple self declaration of being from the KP community.- Ambar ( talk) 16:17, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Also Kashmiri Brahmins are purest of this Race. - What is the source of this info? Need citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vm devadas ( talk • contribs) 08:05, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
Also Kashmiri Brahmins are purest of this Race. - What is the source of this info? Need citation. -- Vm devadas ( talk) 08:11, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
All experts mention that Zulju was not a Mongol. To make him a Mongol is purely part of agenda of some people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.176.3.186 ( talk) 21:54, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
Why is there not a single line in Kashmiri Pandit article about the eruption of armed rebellion ensuing Islamic insurgency of 1989 which has specifically targeted the Kashmiri Pandits minority in recent times and violated their human rights repeatedly? [7] Nothing whatsoever about the scores of onslaughts and human rights violations by Pakistan-backed militants, why? According to a resolution passed by the United States Congress in 2006, Islamic terrorists infiltrated the region in 1989 and since then nearly 400,000 Pandits were either murdered or forced to leave their ancestral homes.(ref: "Pallone introduces resolution condemning human rights violations against kashmiri pandits" if that doesn't work follow → [8])
They got "trained and armed" by the ISI. Ethnic cleansing continued till a vast majority of the Kashmiri Pandits were evicted out of the valley after having suffered many acts of violence, e.g. sexual assault on women, arson, torture, extortion of property etc.(
[9] & "Encyclopedia of human rights" p. 306
)
"Many of the 250,000 refugee Kashmiri Pandits have been living in pitiable conditions in Jammu". [10]
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