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Polish Communist government is a bit of a stretch of the truth. Poland did not have a government that had any significant impact on laws or their enforcement until after the "thaw" brought on by Stalin's death in 1953. The Poles are, by this measure, arguably free from guilt or the burden to pay restitution. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.67.37.157 (
talk)
14:52, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
NPOV issues/claims
This article uses primarily newspapers, some of them clearly POVed (ex. Israeli newspapers - reliable, but of course biased towards Israeli/Jewish POV; currently no Polish sources are used to show the POV of the other side). It's interesting how the demonstrators are called nationalists, and even more so, Polish. Not
Polish American? Did Polish government flew them in from Poland to protest in New York? Also, the claim that "The nationalist Polish government denies that the Poles were culpable for the murders of Jews in the Holocaust." is exaggeration. I don't think that any government statement claimed that not a single Pole was involved in this. While it can be fairly argued that the current Polish gov't is trying to minimize the public view of the scope of Polish collaboration, to say that it claims there was no collaboration/complicity at all is clearly wrong. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here04:27, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The sources cited in the article are in English and reliable. Israeli, British, and American newspapers all cover the same thing here.
Icewhiz (
talk)
06:54, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
One problem with
this (in addition to the fact that you're using the crappy Newsweek article, and another article which is more or less a reprint of it - only Haaretz here is reliable) is that none of the sources actually make the claims you put in there *in their own voice*. They all explicitly state that these were claims made by some "artist" who saw the demonstrations. If the sources don't say it in their own voice, then we definitely CANNOT say it in Wikipedia voice.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
07:19, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The JC is not a reprint of Haaretz nor Newsweek - all three sources are independent and are not copies. They all state in their own voice that Polish nationalists staged a demonstration in New York. Haaretz says, in its own voice, "Hundreds of people participated in the protest on Sunday in Foley Square and some employed anti-Semitic rhetoric". Really - there are multiple videos of the whole ugly affair - no one had to rely on Crabapple for reporting - it is all verifiable from the multiple videos of the event - and sources are using their own voice.
Icewhiz (
talk)
07:27, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Maybe they didn't have to rely on an artist that witnessed it, but they did, and the presence of anti-semitic signs is attributed by all of them to her.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
07:49, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
And Haaretz, the only reliable source here, does indeed attribute all the commentary to Crabapple, aside from the headline (which by itself is NOT RS).
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
07:50, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Both
Newsweek and
The Jewish Chronicle are reliable, as is Tablet. While some sources do quote Crabapple, the also report in their own voice:
Haaretz reports in its own voice that "Hundreds of people participated in the protest on Sunday in Foley Square and some employed anti-Semitic rhetoric".
[1]
Newsweek - "But according to video of the event and the accounts of activists in a counterprotest, some of the participants were also perpetuating anti-Semitic stereotypes and repeating Holocaust denial myths. One man could be seen holding a sign with the words “Holocaust Industry.” - attributes both to activists and the video of the event.
[2]
According to later reporting in Tablet - "The question posed by Bachom in New York, which could have been about any of the demonstrations that took place that day, was more pointed than simple curiosity: These were not routine political gatherings but demonstrations aimed at rewriting the history of the Holocaust that featured open displays of anti-Semitism in major American cities." and " In New York, however, it was evident that the protest was aimed as much against Jews and Jewish suffering in the Holocaust as against the new law itself. Anti-Semitic posters, anti-Semitic gestures and anti-Semitic slogans went hand in hand with a defense of the dignity and honor of Poland."[3]
If "Newsweek is reliable", then go put that the Home Army was a "driving force" behind the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, and that the Ghetto Uprising involved Christians and Jews "rising" against Nazi occupiers together, in the relevant article. Unless you're willing to do that, it's hard to take your assertions seriously.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
09:11, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Mmmmm, OK I can see a POV issue here, but I am also unsure how serious this really is. Maybe any claims (it is, in effect, a BLp issue) should be attributed. Or just use a non "Jewish" source.
Slatersteven (
talk)
08:58, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Is Newsweek "Jewish"? Are you seriously coloring sources as "Jewish"? American, British, and Israeli sources I might add.
Icewhiz (
talk)
09:04, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I have no idea if they are (I have not looked into their ownership). But (as I said) I can see why an "Jewish" source would not be neutral. This is I say I am not sure how serious this is, I do not know of they are Jewish or not.
Slatersteven (
talk)
09:21, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Not necessarily. Most Israeli newspapers are unaffiliated with any religious, social or political institute, and tend to present a secular POV just as most newspapers in the West do. As for "Jewish" - the same rules apply here as everywhere else: if such usage suggests sources of a Jewish ethnicity or religion are unreliable by virtue of being Jewish, then it's inappropriate and in most likelihood false.
François Robere (
talk)
14:03, 16 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Now to the actual point, rather then the accusation that brought me here. It is clear that both Heratz and Newsweek attribute most the accusations about the protesters, so should we. Moreover we should not put any of the accusations in Wikipedias voice.
Slatersteven (
talk)
09:25, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Crabapple is one of many who described the protests in this way. According to Professor of History and Literature
Jonathan Brent in Tablet- "These were not routine political gatherings but demonstrations aimed at rewriting the history of the Holocaust that featured open displays of anti-Semitism in major American cities.", "In New York, however, it was evident that the protest was aimed as much against Jews and Jewish suffering in the Holocaust as against the new law itself.".
[5].
Icewhiz (
talk)
15:28, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Brent is published in a RS, not as an op-ed - an expert in the field on the byline of a NEWSORG. Add
Haaretz - "Hundreds of people participated in the protest on Sunday in Foley Square and some employed anti-Semitic rhetoric" - which says so in its own voice. Add to this "But bystanders and anti-fascist activists reported that the protesters were not only condemning S447, but also carrying anti-Semitic placards and repeating Holocaust-denial conspiracy theories. (so bystanders + anti-fascist activists), and "But according to video of the event and the accounts of activists in a counterprotest, some of the participants were also perpetuating anti-Semitic stereotypes and repeating Holocaust denial myths" (so video + said activists)
[6]. Oh - and we can throw in the
Simon Wiesenthal Center - which is an expert source on antisemitism - saying so in its own voice.
[7]. Also Sandi Bachom,
[8] if you want to enumerate activists - so we end up with - "bystanders, anti-fascist activists, Brent, Haaretz, and Simon Wiesenthal Center".
Icewhiz (
talk)
09:19, 16 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I am not sure if the anonymous bystanders were indeed bystanders or just more activists (at least one of which was reported as masked...). But generally I am fine with attribution, the more, the better. Btw, it's a bit OT, but any idea what is meant by this from the SWC: "Weitzman, who [...] exposed an attempt by Polish anti-Semites to spread their propaganda in the US last spring"? Which incident this can refer to? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here09:43, 16 April 2019 (UTC)reply
WP:NOENG - we have ample English language sources, and there is no need to use Polish language sources (for an event in the United States!), which are under government restrictions regarding Polish Holocaust complicity.
[18]. Per my
WP:OR and TPM -
[19][20] - the organizers were not mainstream Polish-American organizations (though some of the organizers were formerly associated with such) - who generally try to refrain from such discourse. All English language sources reporting on this simply use "Polish nationalists".
Icewhiz (
talk)
10:52, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Polish sources are not less reliable than others. We should present their description just as we present others. The neutral way would be to say that protests by some groups of Polish Americans, described by some sources as Polish nationalists, etc. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here10:56, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Considering these groups were repudiated by the more mainstream Polish American Congress (as you pointed out in -
[21]) - describing the protesters as Polish-American, besides not being inline with coverage in English sources, would be non-neutral in regards to Polish Americans (who are generally opposed to such discourse). Do you have any English language RS describing them as anything other than "Polish nationalists"? Every single English RS I've seen (around 10) - uses "Polish nationalists".
Icewhiz (
talk)
11:04, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
While not required, per
WP:NOENG - "English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance". There is no reason to favor Polish language sources from Poland, some 5770 miles from NYC, over English language sources based in NYC.
Icewhiz (
talk)
11:30, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Multiple other sources exists as well. consensus for
Newsweek at RSN, as summarized at
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, is that "There is consensus that Newsweek is generally reliable". For WWII history, per the
WP:HISTRS essay, better sources exist. However Newsweek, which is headquartered in New York and writes in English should be a superb source for a 2019 protest by Polish nationalists in New York.
[22].
Icewhiz (
talk)
13:14, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
You're evading the question with irrelevancies, which strongly suggests that you KNOW that in this case the source is junk. Do you agree that the Home Army "was a driving force behind the 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising"? Just answer that.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
15:28, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Not that we should be using Polish language sources (per NOENG and much better sources available), but the gazeta.pl piece cited by Piotrus -
[23] - seems to describe antisemitic vitrol (in the streets and on twitter) as well as praise by Robert Winnicki (president of Ruch Narodowy) - whom Volunteer Marek -
diff - saw fit to qualify with "far-right" (unsupported by cited source, though supportable elsewhere).
Icewhiz (
talk)
15:37, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
While there were probably (
WP:OR) Polish-Americans there, saying for a certainty that all the protesters were Polish-American? No idea, really. Every single English RS I see calls them "Polish nationalists" - which seems to me an apt description of the
Chicago chapter of the NSZ.
Icewhiz (
talk)
05:33, 16 April 2019 (UTC)reply
No OR here, since we have sources for Polish-Americans. (Polish language sources). Perhaps some of the organizers, like Chicago NSZ, could be aptly described as "Polish-American Polish nationalists", through that's a bit of an unwieldy phrase. Anyway, typical Polish nationalists in Poland, be it NSZ or Ruch Narodowy members and sympathizers, are usually young and can evoke one's vision of neo-nazis or white supremacists or such (google for
Polish nationalist Warsaw for images), but the photos shown in all the sources, including yours, show a different demographic - middle-aged to old. Those fit the common view of "(older) Polish-Americans" rather than the youthful Polish nationalists. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here09:05, 16 April 2019 (UTC)reply
WP:NOENG is policy. English language sources are preferred. Some of the Polish language sources presented above are quite dubious in terms of RSness, and they don't quite use "Polish Americans" - "amerykańska Polonia" is a bit different. "Polish nationalists" is not an accusation - but a factual description used by several RSes. Piotrus' assertion above that middle-aged to old Poles (based on his photo analysis) can't be "Polish nationalists" - well - this doesn't amount to nothing.
Icewhiz (
talk)
09:13, 16 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Preferred doesn't mean exclusive. If we have an equivalent English and foreign language source for a fact, English is better. But foreign sources can be used if English do not exist - or if they provide a different view/argument, which is the case here. As for the "Polish nationalists", yes, it is mentioned in reliable sources and so should we - BUT it is also non-neutral, and NPOV policy has a thing or two to say about that. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here04:48, 18 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Newsweek as a source...
That article has gems such as: "They also lauded the efforts of the anti-Nazi Home Army, which was a driving force behind the 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising in which Christian and Jewish Poles rose up against Nazi occupiers in the national capital."
The full paragraph is "They also lauded the efforts of the anti-Nazi Home Army, which was a driving force behind the 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising in which Christian and Jewish Poles rose up against Nazi occupiers in the national capital. The following year, Poles launched the Warsaw uprising that also failed to liberate the city.". Now - what is your specific problem?
Icewhiz (
talk)
06:55, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Per our own
Home Army#The Warsaw ghetto uprising (which indeed has NPOV issues) - the Home army did assist in the ghetto uprising - with supplies and attempting to blow up the ghetto wall. In any event, this is background divorced from the actual events in New York. What's your specific problem with Newsweek?
Icewhiz (
talk)
07:09, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
So... the Home Army was a "driving force behind the ghetto uprising"? You want to add that to the Warsaw Ghetto Article? Yes? No? Not a trick question. I mean, it kinda is, because we both know what the obvious answer is, but it seems you don't want to state it outloud because that would involve admitting exactly what the "specific problem with Newsweek" is.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
07:14, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Newsweek was reporting about a 2019 demonstration in NYC. News media, in general, should be used as sources for current events - not for historical nuance - and definitely when such historical background is provided in a very brief blurb.
Icewhiz (
talk)
07:30, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I see that you're trying to evade the question. Do you think that the Home Army was a "driving force behind the ghetto uprising" as Newsweek reports? Yes or no? There's no "historical nuance" here.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
07:47, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Incorrect - from the article - "Last year, President Donald Trump signed the Justice for Uncompensated Survivors Today Act, which requires the State Department to monitor the activities of European countries on the subject and report their progress to Congress.".
Icewhiz (
talk)
07:10, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The article is on Jewish property restitution in Poland. It covers the bill, and subsequent action by US senators. It is clearly on topic.
Icewhiz (
talk)
07:31, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The topic is that the organisations want estates without heirs, which is illegal in Poland (and probably in the USA).
Xx236 (
talk)
12:29, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
For restitution (of property with clear heirs) efforts in Poland - this in an in-depth piece written after the JUST act was passed and that covers the JUST act as well as the subsequent US efforts (e.g. the 59 senators).
Icewhiz (
talk)
04:56, 18 April 2019 (UTC)reply
WP:NOENG - we have ample English language sources, and there is no need to use Polish language sources (for an event in the United States!). Your quote above of Polish "patriots" from Polish media (rife with problems) does not conflict with "Polish nationalists" which is what all English language sources use.
Icewhiz (
talk)
10:55, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Then I have to agree with Icewhiz, I am not seeing the difference, but then I also do not see why (in a spirit of compromise) we cannot say patriots).
Slatersteven (
talk)
09:17, 16 April 2019 (UTC)reply
While I removed the previous sections due to what I perceived as serious NPOV issue, the protests were a notable event that after some rewording I think that section should return to the article. This is how the section looked when I removed it:
“
On 31 March 2019 hundreds of Polish nationalists protested in
Foley Square in New York against the restitution bill. Some of the protesters carried
antisemitic signs, and engaged in
Holocaust denial rhetoric.[1][2][3] In parallel to the protest in New York, protests in Chicago, Los Angeles, Hartford, Philadelphia, Boston, and elsewhere featured open displays of antisemitism.[4]
On 31 March 2019 hundreds of Polish-Americans
[25] protested in
Foley Square in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Hartford, Philadelphia, Boston, and elsewhere in the USA against the restitution bills, with signs like Poland was not the aggressor, it was a victim", "Poland should receive compensaton, not give it", “Treat
anti-Polonism like
antisemitism” and 'Stop slandering Poland in the media'. The organizers of the protest included Polish-American organizations such as the Committee to Protect the Katyn Monument and Other Historical Objects (New Jersey); the Polish American Strategic Initiative; Związek Żołnierzy Narodowych Sił Zbrojnych (Chicago); the Polish Heritage Council of North America Inc. (New York); and the Polish American Congress of Southern California (California). [5] The
Polish American Congress, the biggest Polish-American organization, officially distanced itself from the protests, which they discouraged in the first place, noting that they may damage Polish-American relations. PAC also issued a warning that "It does not require a soothsayer to predict that the mass media will write: On March 31, 2019, Polish Americans took to the streets to deny elderly Holocaust survivors compensation for their property."
[26] According to the accounts of activists in a counterprotest, who described the anti-bill protesters as "Polish nationalists", some of the protesters carried
antisemitic signs such as referencing the
Holocaust Industry or the
Jewish greed stereotype, and some engaged in
Holocaust denial rhetoric.[6][7][8][5]
”
We should follow English language
WP:RSes. Every single English language RS uses "Polish nationalists" - in their own voice (and really - are you going to advocate calling
NSZ Chicago anything else?) - saying this label comes from "counter protesters" is
WP:OR in regards to the cited sources. The
Polish American Congress is
WP:UNDUE - it is lacking both in reputation and in relevant expertise. We should also take care not to repeat or give UNDUE weight to antisemitic discourse. I suggest:
“
On 31 March 2019 hundreds of Polish nationalists protested in
Foley Square in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Hartford, Philadelphia, Boston, and elsewhere in the USA against the JUST bill. The organizers included the Committee to Protect the Katyn Monument and Other Historical Objects (New Jersey); the Polish American Strategic Initiative Związek Żołnierzy
Narodowych Sił Zbrojnych (Chicago), the Polish Heritage Council of North America Inc. (New York); and the Polish American Congress of Southern California (California). [5] In New-York, according to bystanders, activists in a counter protest, videos of the event,
Bard College professor
Jonathan Brent, and the
Simon Wiesenthal Center some of the protesters carried
antisemitic signs and some engaged in
Holocaust denial rhetoric.[9][10][11][5][12] According to Jonathan Brent: "these were not routine political gatherings but demonstrations aimed at rewriting the history of the Holocaust that featured open displays of anti-Semitism in major American cities."[5]
Even extremely biased Molly Crappable writes This thread is in no way meant to detract from the heroism of the Polish resistance or of the many Polish people who rescued Jews (more than any other group in Europe), nor to minimize the Nazi murders of 3 million Poles.. Please icewhiz, use this formula with any of of your anti-Polish comment.
Xx236 (
talk)
07:32, 16 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Of the three Icewhiz's 2nd version looks like a good compromise, but we should mention PAC did not endorse the demo. That being said, I personally prefer conciseness, and would trim both the list of participating organizations and the list of sources (but not the sources themselves).
François Robere (
talk)
14:36, 16 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The problem is some and all are not the same. Looking at the sources it seems some of the protesters were Polish patriots, and some were just Polish, but we say that they were all nationalists.
Slatersteven (
talk)
15:25, 16 April 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Slatersteven: - please back up your assertion with sources. Per multiple English language RSes: "Polish nationalists protested in New York City"[27], "A large group of Polish nationalists took over a major square in downtown Manhattan"[28]. Haaretz and Newsweek are reliable sources - see
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. They (as well as other RSes in English) use "Polish nationalists" as a description of those in the NYC protest.
Icewhiz (
talk)
06:10, 17 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I do not have to, I just have to point out that your sources do not say all the demos were, for example the Newsweek sources is about one demo only (in one city), thus it cannot be used to claims any others were.
Slatersteven (
talk)
14:49, 17 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The protest that received most coverage was in NYC - you are correct we need to separate that one (which has several top-line sources) from the others). 15:16, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
As pointed out to you numerous times already, the Newsweek source makes ridiculous claims which are plainly factually inaccurate. That makes it garbage. If you are serious about treating this article as a reliable source, please go to the article on the
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and change the lede to reflect the claim made in the newsweek article that "The Home Army was a driving force behind the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising". Otherwise, stop pushing it here.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
06:47, 17 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't think either is important. It's enough to state that "according to multiple sources, signs carried by protestors (/tweets/anthems etc.) included nationalist and anti-Semitic messaging."
François Robere (
talk)
13:00, 17 April 2019 (UTC)reply
RSN disagrees. And I quoted Haaretz as well. Here's
The Forward (also HQed in NYC): "Polish nationalists demonstrated in Manhattan Sunday against a proposed U.S. law that would provide compensation to victims of the Holocaust who had their property seized during the war"[29] Perhaps after watching the video in the Forward piece, you would care to explain the national connotations of
Rota (poem) - the top two verses of which:
Nie rzucim ziemi, skąd nasz ród.
Nie damy pogrześć mowy.
Polski my naród, polski lud,
Królewski szczep piastowy.
Nie damy, by nas gnębił wróg.
Tak nam dopomóż Bóg!
Tak nam dopomóż Bóg!
Do krwi ostatniej kropli z żył
Bronić będziemy Ducha,
Aż się rozpadnie w proch i w pył
Krzyżacka zawierucha.
Twierdzą nam będzie każdy próg.
Tak nam dopomóż Bóg!
Tak nam dopomóż Bóg!
We won't forsake the land we came from,
We won't let our speech be buried.
We are the Polish nation, the Polish people,
From the royal line of
Piast.
We won't let the enemy oppress us.
So help us God!
So help us God!
To the last blood drop in our veins
We will defend our Spirit
Till into dust and ash shall fall,
The Teutonic Order's windstorm.
Every doorsill shall be a fortress.
So help us God!
So help us God!
are sung in the first minute of the video (in NYC) presented by the Forward. Care to elaborate on the connotation here? To help you along - according to Michał Buchowski (who seems to be an expert in the field -
profile) - this anti-German oath/anthem is sung as an "opening act at various ceremonies held by self-acclaimed 'patriotic' organizations" - giving
All-Polish Youth as an example. (source:
this book, page 25) (
All-Polish Youth being deep in the radical right -
see this book).
Icewhiz (
talk)
09:07, 17 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Rota is also anthem of centrist
Polish People's Party. This information has been omitted by Icewhiz. As you can see - you have to verify any information by Icewhiz. Even if he praizes Buchowski, he censors Buchowski.
Xx236 (
talk)
09:21, 17 April 2019 (UTC)reply
One more question Hymnem Młodzieży Wszechpolskiej jest Hymn Młodych Obozu Wielkiej Polski, śpiewany do melodii Warszawianki 1831 roku., so Rota isn't anthem of All-Polish Youth.
Xx236 (
talk)
09:31, 17 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes, I'm certain the Polish People's Party, with its 14 seats out of 460 that constitute the Sejm, was a major part of that demo
Glad to hear you agree, with 140,000 members PSL is certainly capable of organizing such demos and attending them.It would be extremely silly to think 14 MP's are all there is to the party.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
19:47, 17 April 2019 (UTC)reply
It's the main one that was covered - the others barely received attention (Chicago was actually more extreme and not small - but still mainly ignored, the rest - were very small - e.g. Boston was around 50 people showing up after church for a very brief demo (anthem, a 10 minute speech, a bit of loitering - and that's it - outside of the state house) - Some of the others were even smaller). Reworded to to reflect sources on NYC:
“
On 31 March 2019 hundreds of Polish nationalists protested in
Foley Square in New York against the JUST bill. According to bystanders, activists in a counter protest, videos of the event,
Bard College professor
Jonathan Brent, and the
Simon Wiesenthal Center some of the protesters carried
antisemitic signs and some engaged in
Holocaust denial rhetoric.[13][14][15][5][16] Other protests were held in Chicago, Los Angeles, Hartford, Philadelphia, and Boston.[5] According to Jonathan Brent: "these were not routine political gatherings but demonstrations aimed at rewriting the history of the Holocaust that featured open displays of anti-Semitism in major American cities."[5]
It is irrelevant that they did not get as much coverage, we cannot claim that something is true in all cases based upon the example of one case.
Slatersteven (
talk)
15:31, 17 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I completely agree (and originally in the article this was so too) - therefore in the proposal above - sources on NYC speak on NYC. Jonathan Brent, who is an expert in this topic area, does address all of the protests - but most sources do not.
Icewhiz (
talk)
15:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Here's my revised version, using some extra information from Icehwiz's proposal(s). Few notes: per
WP:NPOV, I believe the prosters should be described as Polish-Americans first, with a later note that they have been described as Polish nationalists. Second, I am busy right now and couldn't find which refs mention Brent, but I am fine with adding his view as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here04:57, 18 April 2019 (UTC)reply
“
On 31 March 2019 hundreds of Polish-Americans
[30] protested in
Foley Square in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Hartford, Philadelphia, Boston, and elsewhere in the USA against the restitution bills, with signs like Poland was not the aggressor, it was a victim", "Poland should receive compensaton, not give it", “Treat
anti-Polonism like
antisemitism” and 'Stop slandering Poland in the media'. The organizers of the protest included Polish-American organizations such as the Committee to Protect the Katyn Monument and Other Historical Objects (New Jersey); the Polish American Strategic Initiative; Związek Żołnierzy Narodowych Sił Zbrojnych (Chicago); the Polish Heritage Council of North America Inc. (New York); and the Polish American Congress of Southern California (California). [1] The
Polish American Congress, the biggest Polish-American organization, officially distanced itself from the protests, which they discouraged in the first place, noting that they may damage Polish-American relations. PAC also issued a warning that "It does not require a soothsayer to predict that the mass media will write: On March 31, 2019, Polish Americans took to the streets to deny elderly Holocaust survivors compensation for their property."
[31] According to the accounts of activists in a counterprotest, who described the anti-bill protesters as "Polish nationalists", some of the protesters carried
antisemitic signs such as referencing the
Holocaust Industry or the
Jewish greed stereotype, and some engaged in
Holocaust denial rhetoric.[2][3][4][1]Simon Wiesenthal Center called ob the Polish government to condemn the rally.[5]
This version severely distorts and misrepresents sources. For starters - please specify why gazeta.pl internet portal is a RS for the topic (both due to its general reputation and due to legal limitation in Poland on publications involving Polish Holocaust complicity), and why Polish diaspora in America is Polish-American - Polish diaspora is a term that is a bit wider than just Polish-American. More seriously, the Polish nationalists protesting (a term used by every English language RS covering this) are not "According to the accounts of activists in a counterprotest, who described the anti-bill protesters as "Polish nationalists" - this is a gross misrepresentation of every source you are citing here - which are using "Polish nationalists" in their own voice and not attributing this to "activists". The cited sources are also attributing the anti-semitic signs (of which you chose to display the less severe ones, though I'll note that referring to "the
Holocaust Industry" (not a generally accepted concept - this is the title of a very contentious book) in wikivoice is a shocking POV violation)) - to more than just "accounts of activists" - some are using their own voice, others describe videos of the event, etc. Simon Wiesenthal Center did more than just condemn the rally - it described the rally as "In the wake of anti-Semitic slogans and sentiments that were prominently displayed in a demonstration last Sunday in New York by Polish nationalists". Finally - we have expert analysis of the antisemitism on display in all of the protests - Jonathan Brent published under the Tablet's byline - "these were not routine political gatherings but demonstrations aimed at rewriting the history of the Holocaust that featured open displays of anti-Semitism in major American cities" - which has much greater weight than PAC. 05:24, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Gazeta Wyborcza is a perfectly respectable Polish newspaper, and as you know, it is even in the opposition to the government, and generally not aligned with the 'nationalists'. There is no proof that there is any effect on the Polish publications as far as any legal aspects - it's has about the same negligible effects as
English defamation law or such. While a few people speculated there may be some chilling effects its pure speculation at this point. I am fine with using the term
Polish diaspora, except that
Polish_diaspora#United_States =
Polish Americans, that's the specific article we have on that group; I really don't see what problem you have with the term Polish American. As for the term
Holocaust Industry I don't believe there is a consensus that it is anti-semitic? It is controversial, yes, but that's not the same thing. As for as 'voice', this is a wording issue, but it is clear that those accounts are based on said activists accounts. We can adjust it by saying that those claims are based on activists claims published in this and this newspaper. Videos are not generally reliable (which vidoes? who made them? Activists? etc.). And I don't see why a voice of a minor newspaper like Tablet should given more due weight that the statement of the biggest Polish-American organization; which is an authority on issues involving Polish-Americans, just like Simon Wiesenthal Center can be seen as a reliable authority (and as biased, of course) on the issues of Jewish-Americans. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here14:06, 18 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The gazeta.pl portal (
plwiki) is distinct and separate from the
Gazeta Wyborcza newspaper - it's not the same organization - they are owned by the same very large company (but so are
The Wall Street Journal and
New York Post (and worse) in relation to
News Corp (2013–present)) - please present evidence that gazeta.pl should be regard as reliable generally. Tablet is a reputable published source - and in this case the author is a top-notch expert on antisemitism. PAC is a rather dubious organization. If RSes accept videos of the event - so do we (and most of the videos (which I have watched) - were released by the organizers - not activists). "Polish Nationalists" is not a claim by activists - several RSes say this in their own voice - and they don't attribute it to "activists" - attributing this claim to "activists" - when the cited sources do nothing of the sort is a severe distortion of the cited source. You want to attribute "Polish Nationalists"? then it goes to Newsweek,
[32], Haaretz,
[33] Jerusalem Post,
[34] Forward,
[35].
Icewhiz (
talk)
14:31, 18 April 2019 (UTC)reply
As discussed by
[36], gazeta.pl and Wyborca are related, the former is just a 'lighter' Internet portal version of it. It's a bit weird, but I don't see why it should be see as less reliable - they have same publisher, really. It's like saying that
1843 (magazine) is less reliable than
The Economist because it's less known. Same publisher, presumably same quality standards. Prove otherwise. Ditto prove that "PAC is a rather dubious organization". And I a glad you finally agree that controversial caims should be attributed.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here02:01, 19 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't have to prove PAC is dubious (though one of their chapters hosting material written by a SPLC designated individual and some speaking events are rather convincing - they also aren't a cohesive organization - evident even in events here (Southern California sponsoring, a speaker in NYC holding a position in PAC)) - ONUS is on you. As for gazeta.pl - It's not the same publisher - it's a different newsroom and with different editorial controls. Gazeta.pl is "very light" - and mainly reprints churnalism and press-releases, whereas Wyborcza aims to be a serious newspaper (though under Polish government censorship regarding the Holocaust following the 2018 law). This is evident even in the rp.pl piece you are citing which covers the entertainment nature of gazeta.pl and which says "It even happened that the editors of the paper "Gazeta Wyborcza" officially cut themselves off from the portal. "» Gazeta «has a common owner with it and not much more. Editors of the portal have no influence "- wrote Seweryn Blumsztajn" (translation by google translate). I suggest you try suggesting
The Wall Street Journal, the
New York Post, and umm
The Sun (United Kingdom) (a tabloid known for
Page 3 girls) are of the same quality due to News Corp being the publisher -
WP:ONUS on you - particularly after misrepresenting gazeta.pl as Wyborcza.
Icewhiz (
talk)
05:45, 21 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't have to prove a negative regarding PAC's lack of influence. As for Gazeta.pl (which you misrepresented in this very discussion) - unless you have a RSN discussion backing you up -
WP:ONUS is on you. This is an entertainment oriented internet portal with a poor reputation for news.
Icewhiz (
talk)
09:04, 21 April 2019 (UTC)reply
WP:ONUS on you - this internet portal doesn't have a reputation of being reliable - if you are asserting otherwise - take it to RSN. Even if reliable, I will also object to this low-quality internet portal being used per
WP:NOENG - as we have much higher quality English sources here.
Icewhiz (
talk)
10:58, 21 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't have time to participate in your games. Either someone is fair or not. Icewhiz is unfair and you accept his bias.
Xx236 (
talk)
07:09, 24 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Subsequent English language coverage - e.g.
Deutsche Welle (generally well received in RSN, roughly equivalent to the BBC) -
[37] - "In April 2019, hundreds of Polish nationalists in New York City protested against the JUST Act." - continues to refer to "Polish nationalists" in New York.
Icewhiz (
talk)
09:02, 12 May 2019 (UTC)reply
In terms of signs - I don't think we should get into individuals signs in New York, but here are two rather shocking ones published in RSes - "The Polish victims of Jewish perpetrators deserve to have [their] stories told"[38], "Jewish apologize For Crimes Committed: During communist Rule on Polish People. For using and opening over 28 new concentration camps. Bet 1944-1956 They killed over 500,000 people. Nazi Army included 150,000 of Jewish served in the German Military under Adolf Hitler"[39].
Icewhiz (
talk)
13:05, 12 May 2019 (UTC)reply
THe DW has published many texts criticizing the Polish government and nationalism. They aren't certainly neutral. Icewhiz as a neutral expert judging neutrality of Deutsche Welle, a very sad example of bias here.
Xx236 (
talk)
08:12, 13 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I
reverted this - as it used a borderline non-English internet portal as a source in preference to mainline news organizations such as Newsweek, Haaretz, and
Deutsche Welle. This version misrepresented cited sources, and contained
WP:OR - for instance the signs (cherry picked for the less extreme ones) are not supported by the citation. Describing PAC as the "biggest Polish-American organization" is OR, and furthermore PAC is sourced to a primary source (itself - and given the fringe nature of many of this organization's statements - this is an issue). The "activists in a counterprotest" did not describe the Polish nationalists protesting as Polish nationalists - this description is used by Newsweek, Haaretz, Deutsche Welle, and nearly every NEWSORG covering this event. Simon Wiesenthal was misrepresented in that the antisemitic nature of the rally, as evident in the statement (title, opening paragraph, and throughout), was not presented in the statement ascribed to them. Furthermore, this revision removed sourced content from sources that were published following our prior discussion, without explanation.
Icewhiz (
talk)
05:17, 14 May 2019 (UTC)reply
pl:gazeta.pl is a big and reliable Polish news portal related (if, yes, not identical) to the Polish big mainstream daily
Gazeta Wyborcza. You can add more signs if you think the ones noted are not representative. There is a ton of scholarship quoted in the PAC article and to argue it is not the biggest Polish-American organization is ridiculous. If some additional content was removed, you are welcome to restore it, and we can discuss it in more detail here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here05:39, 14 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Only jointly owned - editorial oversight is totally separate - gazeta.pl is a tabloidy internet portal with no editorial connection (Gazeta Wyborcza runs its own website, which is reliable) - much of the content on there is copy-pasted from press-releases and/or Polish press bureaus (in this case - the government run
Informacyjna Agencja Radiowa - Gazeta Wyborcza AFAIK would generally not run such a piece off the government wire). The citation (Tablet) at the end of the segment with the signs does not contain any of the signs included in the text. Whatever you call PAC - it has to be sourced - the citation (PAC itself - a very poor source regardless) - does not support this. Ascribing "Polish nationalists" to "activists in a counterprotest" was rejected in the discussion above - and furthermore is a gross misrepresentation of the available sources (which simply use this in their own voice). If you want to attribute this - then say "Polish-Americans according to to internet portal gazeta.pl, and Polish nationalists according to
Newsweek,
Haaretz,
Deutsche Welle, ....
Icewhiz (
talk)
05:50, 14 May 2019 (UTC)reply
gazeta.pl is a part of Agora publishing house. Noone knows internal editorial policy of Agora. Please quote RS that gazeta.pl has no editorial connection with GW.(Copyright Icewhiz)
Agora owns many brands (as does
News UK -
The Times is reliable,
The Sun (United Kingdom) not so much). Gazeta Wyborcza issued a stmt in the past that they are editorially independent - however,
WP:ONUS is on you to show that there is any sort of reputation and editorial connection in the past couple of decades (joint ownership established nothing). I'll also note that gazeta.pl has a past,IAR tagline (no author) - so we probably have to discuss the reliability of the press agency and not gazeta.pl .
Icewhiz (
talk)
06:25, 14 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Punted over to NOR/n. Inventing content that is not in the sources you are citing is not something that is done on Wikipedia generally.
Icewhiz (
talk)
06:52, 14 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Again I will note, a source saying "in New York" cannot be used to say "in the US". Nor should protests outside New York be ignored just because they do not fit the profile.
Slatersteven (
talk)
12:11, 14 May 2019 (UTC)reply
In
this version - sources for New York (which are more extensive), are used strictly for New York. Other protests (which received much less coverage) are mentioned in a separate sentence. Observations on the nature of the protests (both US-wide, from historians who are experts in the fields) are presented attributed.
Icewhiz (
talk)
12:20, 14 May 2019 (UTC)reply
While I personally think the Chicago event should've received more attention (organized by NSZ Chicago, muscular men with NSZ armbands on stage, very heated rhetoric) - it seems that most
WP:RSes only covered New York. The events elsewhere (Los Angeles, Hartford, Philadelphia, Boston) were small token events. However - all this is an issue to take up with the editors of the publications covering this, on Wikipedia we merely follow the weight in sources.
Icewhiz (
talk)
12:40, 14 May 2019 (UTC)reply
A recent series of changes introduced newspaper articles and columns as sources for historical background.
[42] Can anyone tell me for each Polish language citation, who is it sourced to? Is it a journalist, a commentator, or a subject matter expert?
François Robere (
talk)
19:34, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Per
WP:NOENG we should not be using Polish media here at all, as top-notch NEWORGs are available in English for this US law (and for background - there is plenty of academic sources in English). Polish media, beyond NOENG, is also censored in regards to the Polish role in the Holocaust as 2018 legislation in Poland places restrictions on what may he published.
Icewhiz (
talk)
19:42, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
If you have specific concerns to reliability of any source, please specify them here. Icewhiz-you are repeating yourself, you have raised the same bizarre claim in other articles, the answer is the same, Polish sources are reliable and can be used. Your recent request to have them restricted has been categorically rejected.Please do not try to start this again.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
20:45, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Indeed, Polish sources when reliable can be used. However,post 2018 media sources in Poland are censored in relation to the Holocaust and are not reliable. Furthermore -
WP:NOENG is policy - having us prefer English sources of the same quality. That you, or others, disagree with the NOENG policy is of little consequence.
Icewhiz (
talk)
21:07, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
There has never been consensus on post 2018 Polish media. As for
WP:NOENG - it is quite clear in what it states. That you, or others, disagree with NOENG on multiple talk pages is of little consequence - that's a discussion for the Village Pump.
Icewhiz (
talk)
21:12, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Actually there was a clear consensus that Polish media and sources can be used, and your suggestion to restrict them was overwhelmingly rejected
[43].Cheers!--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
21:27, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
The discussion generally stayed away from the question of post-2018 Polish sources, so I'd be hesitant to say that they're accepted as a rule. Also, coming back to the question I started with - why are we using newspapers for historical information when we have high quality scholarly sourced available?
François Robere (
talk)
12:09, 20 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Is there any particular reason why we are describing Poles who have protested against the targeting of their country as "far-right", but we do not apply this same description to
Mike Pompeo who serves in the very far-right Trump administration in the US or for that matter the American Jewish organisations who openly support the far-right Netanyahu regime in Israel? The section entitled "Polish opposition and protests" is couched in language which is heavy bias in favour of the view of American Jews and hostile to the Polish people, attempts to attach clever little epithets to smear their side in this dispute. This kind of ethnocentrism would appear to be a clear breach of our NPOV policies. I suggest we re-write this section in language that is less nakedly ethnocentric in favour of one side.
Ishbiliyya (
talk)
22:40, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
We follow language in RSes (AP, DW, Reuters, and multiple other leading NEWSORGs) who describe the far right protesters as, well, far right.
Icewhiz (
talk)
04:01, 19 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Thank you Ishbiliyya, I believe you might have a point, how is Pompeo described politically and his faction by RS?
By the way, are you aware of any comparisons between this law and land taken away from Palestinians? I believe I saw an article on this recently. --
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
22:37, 19 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't think Netanyahu or Pompeo are discussed here. But it is a sobering reminder that Poland, US and Israel do share the same political outlook these days (nationalistic far-right), and it is why currently Polish and Israel relations are pretty bad (as those groups hate to compromise, and are always promoting 'perfect us vs evil them' rhetoric). But let's try to keep this discussion to the content of the article. Far-right leaning of Poland or Israel are not that relevant here, outside of the fact that any criticism of another country, even if justified, is also going to attract the problematic support of nationalists (which is how a reasonable protest may be ruined by a few nationalist whackos with Holocaust denial signs...). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here10:55, 20 May 2019 (UTC)reply
To be clear - the protesters in Poland are much-much-much farther to the right than PiS - the protesters in the march were the far-right competitors of PiS, well outflanking the ruling party.
Icewhiz (
talk)
20:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)reply
But you're quoting him not only for his opinion, but on historical facts. Why use him rather than any of the high quality scholarly sources that we already have?
François Robere (
talk)
01:56, 20 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Onet.pl is a web portal - it certainly isn't up to snuff in comparison to major news organizations. Furthermore, it is subject to censorship, on this very topic, under the 2018 Holocaust legislation. To top it all off - we have much better English language source on this American law.
Icewhiz (
talk)
20:24, 20 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Per
Freedom House - {[tq|"In February 2018, parliament passed a law criminalizing claims of Polish complicity in crimes committed during the Holocaust, carrying a potential prison sentence of up to three years. The government walked back the law following an international outcry, making it a civil offense punishable by fines.}} - should this internet portal (of a dubious reliability regardless) publish information on Polish complicity in the Holocaust - e.g. in regards to pilfering Jewish property (relevant to our article) - it would be subject to a fine. As other media in Poland, it is clearly unable to freely report on the subject.
Icewhiz (
talk)
07:51, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
WP:ONUS has not been met for this. As a Polish diplomat, he would also be quite involved and non-independent here. Please also provide sources for his academic credentials. All I see is former ambassador to Belarus -
[45], and editing onet.pl -
[46] (the Polish Foreign Ministry complaining of a misrepresentation of one of their statements).
Icewhiz (
talk)
07:56, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Doesn't have anything with soccer. I'm merely asking so we can use the right title - "diplomat" vs. "former diplomat" (the latter would actually make him slightly more reliable as a source on history). As for where he teaches - that's standard to evaluating his notability.
François Robere (
talk)
10:56, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I was just going to comment on Adam Sandauer, who is he and why does he get an entire section to himself? I am also an activist, can I get a section in this article?
Sir Joseph(talk)19:03, 20 May 2019 (UTC)reply
It's literally in the headline, and I'd expect you'd know when you restored and edited a short text that mentions him. Who is Adam Sandauer and what makes him an RS?
François Robere (
talk)
19:20, 22 May 2019 (UTC)reply
You asked "you have an answer to this" and put in a diff. It wasn't clear what the "this" was. But ok, who's Sandauer. A professor, a dissident, a publicist and an activist.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
04:07, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Per
plwiki he is a social worker and medical doctor. It is also unclear from plwiki he is Jewish (they say assimilated for many generations). His credentials for the topic in question appear to be close to nil.
Icewhiz (
talk)
07:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Re:
this diff: Claiming nationalization laws did not include a "national or racial criteria" is wrong, considering the fact they were we intended to make it difficult for Jews to recover property:
The 1945 and 1946 laws governing restitution were enacted with the intention of restricting Jewish restitution claims.[1]
All other properties that had been confiscated by the Nazi regime were deemed "abandoned"; however, as Yechiel Weizman notes, the fact most of Poland's Jewry had died, in conjunction with the fact that only Jewish property was officially confiscated by the Nazis, suggest "abandoned property" was equivalent to "Jewish property".[2]
According to Krzyżanowski, this declaration of "abandoned" property can be seen as the last stage of the expropriation process that began during the German wartime occupation; by approving the status-quo shaped by the German occupation authorities, the Polish authorities became "the beneficiary of the murder of millions of its Jewish citizens, who were deprived of all their property before death".[3]
^Stola, Dariusz (2008). "The polish debate on the holocaust and the restitution of property". Robbery and restitution: the conflict over Jewish property in Europe. pp. 240–255.
ISBN978-1-306-54603-4. {{
cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (
help); External link in |chapterurl= (
help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (
help); Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (
help)
^Jan Grabowski; Dariusz Libionka (2014). Klucze i kasa: O mieniu żydowskim w Polsce pod okupacją niemiecką i we wczesnych latach powojennych 1939–1950 (in Polish). Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą. pp. 605–607.
"Claiming nationalization laws did not include a "national or racial criteria" is wrong". None do.Feel free to point to example of law that includes it, none of the sources above claim that Polish laws used national or racial criteria by the way and you are pushing your own original research.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
22:56, 19 May 2019 (UTC)reply
No, they claim that on their own they targeted a particular nationality. Would you prefer stating that "none included a nationality criteria, but several experts have noted that they targeted a specific nationality"? I'm okay with that.
François Robere (
talk)
23:11, 19 May 2019 (UTC)reply
They don't state that either.And we already know that Jewish property was small,only around 15% of all property lost.After all Jews in pre-war Poland were pretty poor.Your sources are also pretty limited and cherry picked, others state that they aimed at helping Jews.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
23:15, 19 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Sources are rather clear that "abandoned property" laws targeted Jews specifically - mainly since most of the "abandoned" (or Nazi confiscated) property was Jewish, and Jewish owners were less likely to have direct-line descendants. The communist law was indeed egalitarian in terms of wording (naming no particular nationality), however the communist framers were quite explicit in their deliberations on the aims of the legistlation.
Icewhiz (
talk)
20:26, 20 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I am not sure this is what the sources say, can you provide a quote? I think the sources say that Jews were incidentally targeted by this, but not intentionally. And, if they were intentionally targeted, where they the primary target? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here11:20, 24 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Stola, 2008, pp. 244-245:
The authors of the decrees did not conceal the fact that these restrictions had been imposed with, among other things, the possessions of murdered Jews in mind. During the debate in the Krajowa Rada Narodowa [National Council] (KRN), a temporary legislative body set up by the communists, the restrictions were justified, among other reasons, by a warning that without them there was a danger of enormous wealth being concentrated in a few hands. Such a concentration of wealth would, the proponents of the restrictions claimed, firstly be unjust and economically unproductive and, secondly, cause a rise in antisemitism. Therefore, the combination of low survival rates (i.e., the efficiency of the Nazi “Final Solution” in Poland) and the restrictions imposed by the 1945 decree meant that most of the property of the victims of the Holocaust was classified as “abandoned.” Consequently, it came under state administration and after a time (five to ten years) was nationalized.
Weizmann, 2017, pp. 36-37:
Although the decrees regarding the status of abandoned and allegedly ownerless property confiscated by the Germans, published in the beginning of 1945, did not mention Jewish property as a distinct category, Poles and Jews alike clearly understood that one of their primary goals was to prevent Jewish property from returning to Jewish hands... The fact that in occupied Poland only Jewish property as such was officially confiscated by the Germans, along with the unprecedented extermination rate of Polish Jews, suggested that ‘abandoned property’ was in many ways tantamount to ‘Jewish property.
The severe limitations placed on the possibility of reclaiming private property only further emphasized the extent to which the new legislation affected the status of Jewish property. In contrast to the pre-war law that allowed second-degree relatives the right to claim property, under the new, postwar regulations only the original owners or direct heirs could ask for restitution. In light the scale of the destruction of Polish Jewry, regaining Jewish family assets was to become an almost impossible task. Jewish leaders understood this problem very well and led the protests against the new legislation. Polish officials did not try to conceal that the change in the inheritance laws were aimed mainly at preventing the restitution of Jewish property. As the then Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs explained of the new legalization in October 1945: ‘We will not permit some foreign Jews, for instance Argentinian Jews, to inherit property in Poland.’ In internal discussions regarding the formulation of the new laws, some of the participants argued that their purpose was to prevent the concentration of too much wealth in the hand of ‘unproductive and parasite factors’ and to preclude the inheritance of property by ‘distant relatives in Argentina who engage in despicable jobs.’
[...]
While private restitution could still be achieved [despite the difficulties described earlier, which I didn't quote in full -FR.], communal properties could not be reclaimed, as the Communist authorities had passed a law preventing any postwar Jewish associations from claiming the right to prewar communal property. An official circular dated 6 February 1945, declared that none of the prewar Jewish communities in Poland possessed any legal heirs in the postwar era, thus no Jewish association had the right to represent them or claim their property. In order to consolidate this legal discontinuity, the new regime differentiated between the prewar Jewish communities (Gmina in Polish) and postwar Jewish associations, defining the latter as ‘congregations’ (Kongregracja). Hereby, hundreds of Jewish sites – principally synagogues and cemeteries – became formally ‘heirless.’
Which one specifically do you want a quote from? They all generally agree Jewish property was targeted - Polish official said this in public - e.g. the FM said they did not want Argentinian Jews with "despicable jobs" to inherit - and in any event the vast majority of "abandoned" property was Jewish (as they were expelled/fled during the war, and were destroyed in great numbers - no close relatives remaining next to the property and taking it over during the war)).
Icewhiz (
talk)
14:00, 24 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes, after Jewish communities started demanding the same treatment enjoyed by the Catholic Church in post-Communist Poland. We know all about it, and cite it in the relevant article. The laws to which this discussion pertains, however, dates to the 1940's.
François Robere (
talk)
12:46, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
The act doesn't mention the non-binding Terazin Declaration
RSes, however, tie this to Terezin. As do quotes from the senators initiating this, and State Department implementing it. As for the act - it uses the terminology of 2009 Holocaust Era Assets Conference - which is equivalent, and more formal way, to say Terezin.
Icewhiz (
talk)
20:30, 20 May 2019 (UTC)reply
The real issue
It is very sad to see misrepresentations hidden in the article. The real issue here is not about the property that can be easily recovered by the survivors or their surviving family members utilizing the Polish justice system. The issue is that Jewish organizations in the US want money for property that was left with no one to claim it. --
Stepy345 (
talk)
23:00, 21 May 2019 (UTC)reply
You mean the source you just restored that we shouldn't use for historical info? Also, I assume you can see the one-sidedness of
Stepy345's argument, which somehow manages to ignore most accounts by Jewish returnees, as quoted in this TP and others.
François Robere (
talk)
09:02, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
An opedy piece (by a journalist) in a right-wing Polish newspaper making claims about foriegn Jewish organizations... Certainly we could do better here with English language sources covering said non-Polish organizations and the US legislation.
Icewhiz (
talk)
08:05, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I've restored some tags that were removed - I'm not sure why. Please reply here if you have answers.
I've removed some popular sources that were used for historical information (see
#Usage of newspapers for historical information) - not sure why we need them when we have high quality academic sources for that.
The
USDOJ is a primary source, which means the numbers are open to interpretation (are they a lot? a little? we need context). Please find a secondary source on that.
I'm still not clear on how "international law" is relevant here if Poland willingly accepted some responsibility under the Terezin declaration. If you can legally eat candy but willingly joined
Weight Watchers, then you shouldn't eat candy. If you want to eat candy, quit Weight Watchers. The law has nothing to do with it.
"I'm still not clear on how "international law" is relevant here"-It concerns relations between two countries, so it is relevant here. Terezin decleration is a non-binding statement, and Poland already stated it doesn't cover heirless property. Your personal dislike for this fact has no influence on Wikipedia-we do not base it on personal views of the users.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
11:23, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
What is there to "like" or "dislike" here? I'm trying to understand your rationale.
It concerns relations between two countries So is the Terezin declaration, and presumably it supersedes any previous agreement - as is usually the case (and here is the place to point out that "international law" is nothing but than a set of multilateral agreements). If Poland signed it, one can assume Poland knew what it was signing, and that in some way it may supersede or nullify agreements that Poland previously signed. And the same goes for "non binding" - presumably Poland knew that it would be expected to conform, even if no mechanism was set up to guarantee it. If Poland didn't agree with the declaration or didn't plan on conforming, then why sign it to begin with? Throwing all of this now almost looks like an attempt to re-litigate previous agreements. That being said, if you insist on including it, find us the treaty where this is stated and we'll present it in full: "the status of such property was originally determined in... from... signed by Poland on... The Terezin declaration from... also signed by Poland (on...), states however that...".
François Robere (
talk)
12:43, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
"Terezin declaration, and presumably it supersedes any previous agreement".Terezin is a non-binding political declaration that has no weight, and doesn't supersede any international law, Polish FM clearly stated during this decleration that heirless property will not be considered.We already have sources on this.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
12:58, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
BTW, the declaration explicitly mentions "heirless property"... Now, are you going to find the relevant treaties or are we to rely on your OR?
François Robere (
talk)
13:28, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
We already have reliable sources on status of international law.If you believe they are not reliable sources, feel free to raise this on WP:RS
--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
13:36, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
A rather dubious source in a Polish language internet portal you mean? International law generally does not address property rights. The Polish source may have meant to say that most national law systems (around the world) have a provision for heirless property. What it leaves unsaid is that the declaration of said property as heirless has been seen by experts in the field as rather dubious (due to severe, and retroactive, changes to succession laws in Poland following the war and other reasons). This is a pretty big
WP:REDFLAG statement, that also contradicts an actual international proclamation - the Terezin declaration.
Icewhiz (
talk)
08:08, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I have restored information that heirless property is legally part of state.This is the main point of controversy(American organizations trying to claim property from Polish government which they never possed or had links to), which is well sourced.Concealing this information isn't justified, especially as this is pointed out by representatives of both Polish government, parties and numerous reliable sources.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
11:17, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
See no change in previous discussions. Reliable information is sourced to reliable sources and this information is vital, and sourced as such.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
13:16, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I'll reiterate: What makes RP and other dailies reliable sources on Holocaust and WWII history, or on interpretation of international law? Who are the writers, what are their qualifications etc.? And what sources do you have about "American organizations" etc.?
François Robere (
talk)
13:27, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't need to. Per
WP:SOURCETYPES: "when available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." We have good scholarly sources on these things - why do we need the dailies?
François Robere (
talk)
22:44, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Sure, we can add other scholarly sources once they become available.However these ones are reliable and contain vital information, there is no need to remove them.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
09:49, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Molobo, these aren't scholarly. That's the whole point. And there are alternatives. You can't removed one and keep the other like you consistently do on eg. "abandoned property". Now do answer: Who are the writers and what makes them experts on these topics?
François Robere (
talk)
10:13, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
The writers are reliable sources in reliable newstream publications.If you believe they are not, I suggest you start a topic on WP:RSN.
--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
10:21, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
WP:ONUS on you to show these Polish internet portals are reliable for this sort of information, particularly due to suppression of free speech in this topic area in Poland.
Icewhiz (
talk)
06:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Icewiz, please don't invent stories about suppression of free speech in this topic area in Poland. It's not true. Please explain how the government suppresses US Discovery (TVN) freedom of speech. You don't have any idea about Poland, you are indoctrinated by liberal propaganda.
Xx236 (
talk)
08:56, 29 May 2019 (UTC)reply
A number of people protesting against the JUST just lost their twitter accounts. So much about freedom of speech.
Xx236 (
talk)
11:47, 29 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Restoring errors into the article
@
MyMoloboaccount: You keep restoring errors into the article - mainly punctuation and some spelling errors, as well as the removal of a "not in source" tag. I previously asked that you don't (in edit summaries and on your
TP). Please fix.
François Robere (
talk)
13:02, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Not glaring, but still errors: "1,2 billion zloty", missing spaces, the occasional typo, misplacement of ref tags etc. I would gladly fix them on occasion, but not every time. Thanks.
François Robere (
talk)
22:35, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes, but effectively it is about Poland - a combination of most other countries (in the West and subsequently the East) implementation restitution of Holocaust properties and the relatively large amount of victims (and hence, property) in Poland to begin with. As a consequence - most of the RS coverage has been on Poland.
Icewhiz (
talk)
06:48, 27 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Also most of the resistance... Regardless,
Xx236 is free to add sources on other countries - we didn't choose to focus on Poland, it's just how the publicity on the issue turned (not least because of the demonstrations around the US).
François Robere (
talk)
10:14, 27 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Or possibly the results of the reporting associated with the act (as this is about the act, not about the Terezin decl.), or something like that.
François Robere (
talk)
10:14, 27 May 2019 (UTC)reply
it would be good to have a section for each country, which may be implemented arount 2137, as far Poles are the only bad guys and the only Holocaust experts edit pages about Poland. They apparently tore away only few pages from a book in their library. Please return to the library and read the other 95% of the book.
Xx236 (
talk)
09:06, 5 June 2019 (UTC)reply
"only Jewish property was officially confiscated by the Nazi regime"-this is quite wrong, for example in Wielkopolska region Germany took over homes of over 700,000 ethnic Poles.
I stumbled on this bizarre statement in the text. This is quite wrong.Germany confiscated a lot of private property in Western Poland, for example houses and land taken from around 700,000 Poles that were ethnically cleansed to make room for German colonists in areas like Warthegau.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
00:03, 29 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I've re-hauled one of the sections
[53] and would like to explain my rationale as I'm doing so.
The law is about properties confiscated by the Nazis, so much of weight given to Communist nationalization is simply irrelevant.
The "15%-20%" claim is unsourced, so placing it as a counter to Stola and the other sources is undue.
The "restituting Jewish property will create a precedent, primarily for nobility and the church" statement is nonsense - the Church already reclaimed its properties in the early 90's, which created the precedent for Jewish communities to do the same. It's well documented.
This also affects the "in 1997 Poland restored communal Jewish property" statement.
Putting the "we've already restored so much" paragraph before the actual historical background smells of apologetics.
I've removed a
source that has been misrepresented: it was quoted for international law,
[54] though it doesn't actually mention it. What's more, it mentions several exceptions, including the nationalization of property in the EE Communist states. This isn't the first time this happened.
[55][56]
I've tagged another source, as I don't have access to it and the citation is wrong: vol. 13 is from 2005, not 2010; 2010 saw vol. 18 published.
I did not change anything in this
[57] text, but I have to say I find this edit quite petty.
Poland has paid pensions to Jewish-Polish soldiers of WWII. The pensions were small, but level of life in Poland was low.
There is opinion that such institutions should be financed by a Polish-Jewish foundation organised according to Terezin and JUST rather than directly by the state or local governments.
Xx236 (
talk)
06:54, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Poland paysreply
Warsaw was destroied and reconstructed
The whole nation constructs Warsaw was one of the most popular political slogans after the war. Millions offered money, such donations were sometimes obligatory, so it was a tax. Part of the Old Town was removed to construct the W-Z tunnel. The Old and New Town were (re)constructed on the basis of 18 century pictures by
Bernardo Bellotto. I want my part of reconstructed Warsaw, financed by my parents and grandparents.
Warsaw could have been constructed in an another place, which would have reduced value of Warsaw building plots many times.
Xx236 (
talk)
07:08, 31 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Most of the 'Criticism' is actually commentary on a law that was implemented in Poland not on the actual reporting that this bill requires. This page is becoming a soapbox for 'all criticism of Holocaust restitution' which is not the title of this article.
> In March 2018, 59 US Senators sent a bipartisan letter to Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki, stating that draft legislation (published on 20 October 2017,[24]) in Poland would discriminate against Holocaust survivors in the United States. The proposed Polish bill would require claimants to reside in Poland as Polish citizens, and would exclude heirs that are not "first-line heirs".[25] The Polish bill was subsequently withdrawn.[12]
This belongs on a new article about that law. At best a reference to it under 'laws implemented following the JUST Act / Declaration' is sufficient here. Either that or this page needs to give proper coverage on that bill, from reliable sources (like we have for the act this page is supposed to cover).
Volunteer Marek Yesterday you've removed several paragraphs from the article.
[58][59][60] You've previously worked on this article and referred to the longstanding version as "NPOV" and "neutral".
[61][62] I've looked at your removals and restored some of the material that I deemed important (less than a third), including the reactions of Polish diplomats (which you removed as part of an edit with the summary "who cares what a neo Nazi thinks") and a much abbreviated description of the protests by Polish/American organizations.
[63][64] You immediately removed the restored content with the summary "stop following me around, please get consensus for inclusion",
[65] despite a) knowing that both you and I have been editing this page since mid 2019;
[66][67] and b) having described the longstanding version as "NPOV" and "neutral". Care to explain?
François Robere (
talk)
10:59, 19 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Sure. The amount of text that was dedicated to Poland was UNDUE and served as a COATRACK. I’m bothered by the fact that you’ve shown up on several articles in the recent past solely to revert me. Volunteer Marek 15:20, 19 June 2021 (UTC)reply
VM, the problem isn't that I'm following you - I'm not - the problem is that you've been busying yourself purging criticisms from articles across the TA:
You've made some of these edits under false pretense: you've removed statements by Polish diplomats as "neo nazi",
[75] sourced and singular material as "unsourced and redundant",
[76] and accurate quotes of a BLP as "misrepresentation of sources".
[77] In other cases you seem oblivious to what the sources say, even when quotes have been presented.
[78][79][80]
I've reverted some of your edits on some of these articles, because these are the ones I follow and disagreed with. I don't follow the other ones (though I'm acquainted with and/or edited them in the past), so I wasn't aware of your edits there until today. Unfortunately you've been
WP:EDITWARRING, casting
WP:ASPERSIONS and making
WP:PERSONALATTACKs in all of our encounters, leading other editors to comments such as "Please do not use edit summaries to accuse other editors of meat-puppetry" (
K.e.coffman)
[81] and "please
WP:AGF with other editors... If this discussion cannot remain civil, we will need an admin involved" (
Brigade Piron).
[82] This follows on multiple warnings you've received from
El C.
[83]
You inserted this reply AFTER my reply below (17:30 vs 15:21) but the placing makes it seem otherwise. Can you thread your comments properly? Volunteer Marek 21:47, 19 June 2021 (UTC)reply
There was a problem with this article that had been left unaddressed for a couple years. I just tried addressing it. Again, I fail to see what your objection is. Volunteer Marek 18:47, 20 June 2021 (UTC)reply
François Robere, I took a quick look. I think the first one is mostly ok, but not
this. It needs to be at the very least shortened, there are obvious Icewhicizms in the form of coatracks like the jab "in a similar fashion to the
2018 Polish Holocaust law". (At least it no longer potrays the protesters in the US as Polish nationalists, but there is still undue focus on one or two antisemitic placards; the majority of the protesters in the US were certainly not expressing antisemitic sentiment and we should avoid misrepresenting the protests as antisemitic). As usual, the issue is with likely UNDUE weight given to some comments. For example, who is
Matthew Lenoe and why is their opinion worth quoting? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here07:22, 21 June 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Piotrus: Matthew Lenoe studies Stalinism and WWII,
[88]Jonathan Brent is director of
YIVO, and with
Rafał Pankowski you're already familiar. Lenoe states exactly what is quoted: "Similar to a 2018 Polish law... the event was the latest attempt to erase complex or negative aspects of Polish history... these right-wing Polish nationalists aim to reinforce a narrative in which Poles feature only as heroes and victims."
[89]
I haven't counted how many signs were antisemitic and how many weren't, but the cited sources focus on that aspect. If you think it UNDUE, I suggest finding other sources that legitimize these protests or present other facets of them.
François Robere (
talk)
11:37, 21 June 2021 (UTC)reply
The problem is that the article overall is a classic
WP:COATRACK. It's barely about the subject itself but rather serves as an excuse/platform for another topic. Which is why the majority of this material (some of which I removed) wasn't even about the Act. And honestly, I kind of doubt this article even passes WP:NOTABILITY, though I'm not familiar off the top of my head what the notability guidelines are for "acts", particularly purely symbolic ones such as this. Volunteer Marek 16:23, 21 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I agree that we all got too focused on the Polish aspect of it early on, which why I only restored 5k out of the 17k you removed, but those 5k are directly relevant.
Why would you think that it's ok to restore it? We just went through how that is a WP:COATRACK and you even partially acknowledge this to be true. ??? Volunteer Marek 17:00, 25 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Because:
We're not discussing what was here before, we're discussing what I want to restore now. You can't argue that some text is bad just because it shared a revision with another text that is thematically unrelated.
There's already agreement for the first part (the diplomats)
I haven't gotten a reply from either of you in four days, so I'm assuming you either lost interest or we've come to an agreement.
Right above, Piotrus is objecting to your "second one". That's what you're now proposing to restore, acting like there's agreement for that. There isn't. Volunteer Marek 21:32, 25 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm proposing to restore both parts,
[90][91] and as noted above there's already agreement for the first part. I'm not "acting" like anything, I'm trying to move the discussion along while voiding any chance of you reverting parts that are already agreed on.
François Robere (
talk)
10:12, 26 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Yes, although the wording of the edit could use some tweaking - while the protests do seem to have been rooted in anti-semitism based on the sources available, that part of the edit could be phrased more dispassionately and with fewer direct specific quotes. --
Tserton (
talk)
12:04, 26 June 2021 (UTC)reply
No The sources are cherry picked, and presented in tendentious matter, contributing nothing of worth to the article. It would be the best if they were removed all together as it would improve quality of the text.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
16:30, 26 June 2021 (UTC)reply
No, per WP:UNDUE, unless we’re talking one or two sentences. At minimum the relevant text needs to be greatly cut down as it’s way too long relative to rest of article (so this is also a bit of a WP:COATRACK) Volunteer Marek 02:55, 27 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Yes. Plenty of coverage, relevant to the topic. As long as the subsection isn't going to balloon to the point where it takes over the whole subsection, it should definitely be included.
PraiseVivec (
talk)
11:54, 27 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Sigh. Mention, yes, the problem is with undue weight on them and with trying to frame them as antisemitic just because a few antisemitic individuals participated. One sentence will do, stating that protests happened, and that's it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here02:46, 28 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Yes - a mention (
Summoned by bot) the question asked is whether it should mention to which the answer would be yes, but some of the 'diffs' linked above are so OTT and WP:COATRACK-y that neither my 'vote' nor anyone else's should be interpreted as defending any prev versions.
Pincrete (
talk)
17:18, 28 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I don't remember exactly which diffs I looked at - I looked at linked ones and 'history'. The specific diff you link to removes around 8K from an article length of under 17K and most of it comments on protestors not protests, so it is a great deal more than 'a mention'. My assessment holds, the text was OTT and more directed at discrediting protestors than at establishing what objections might have been. That SOME protestors were probably Anti-Sem can be communicated in a sentence.
Pincrete (
talk)
09:06, 29 June 2021 (UTC)reply
It was OTT, which is why this diff is only 3.8k, of which 2.8k are just refs.
[96] I tried to convey the fact that most sources are clear about the nature and context of at least two of the protests,
[97][98][99][100][101][102][103] without making judgment about others. The reason I ask about a "mention" is that one editor objected to any mention of this, which I think is unacceptable.
François Robere (
talk)
10:09, 29 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Yes, I see no issues with the text, sourcing is fine too. Claims of undue weight and "cherry-picking" are, almost as always, unsubstantiated.(Also, I've struck the meaningless "see also motion" added to the comment above, it is irrelevant)
CPCEnjoyer (
talk)
17:12, 29 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Mention only, without
WP:SYNTH or
WP:UNDUE. Piotrus nailed it: "the problem is with undue weight on them and with trying to frame them as antisemitic just because a few antisemitic individuals participated. One sentence will do, stating that protests happened, and that's it." —
SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 03:33, 5 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Note - Please be conscious of the arrival of new and newish accounts to !vote here; some remarkably aware of our policies
[104] - GizzyCatBella🍁21:04, 29 June 2021 (UTC)sockpuppet of banned userreply
Yes though probably not as detailed a description of historians' opinions. On the other hand, a simple mention en passant, as
Piotrus suggests, seems insufficient for me. It should state that these protests occurred and the nature of the protests. The opinions of the historians (probably some more if they could be found, including domestic reactions in Poland, if possible) should be presented, but preferably in one, maximum two sentences (probably grouping them under a summarising sentence). The fragment is very well sourced, so its deletion IMHO would worsen the article's quality by unnecessarily and artificially diminishing its scope.
Szmenderowiecki (
talk)
02:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm sorry but this RfC is worded in a misleading way. I don't think there's any objection to "mentioning" the protests. What there is objection to is inserting a section on the protests which is longer than the article itself as that clearly violates WP:WEIGHT and is used as a WP:COATRACK. The outcome of this RfC then will be meaningless. Volunteer Marek 12:38, 28 June 2021 (UTC)reply
That does not appear to be the case based on some of the comments above. Most people would agree that it bears the mention. But the RfC is really one of those where you are asking for a carte blanche to put whatever you want in the article. Volunteer Marek 21:48, 28 June 2021 (UTC)reply
By "most people" you mean YOU? Because I don't see anyone else discussing this until the RfC. Please don't substitute in your own personal opinions for "most people" and then ask for "AGF". Volunteer Marek 12:49, 29 June 2021 (UTC)reply
You just said that most people would agree that it bears the mention; but you didn't agree,
[107] so I had to start an RfC. Ergo if you agreed with most people, this RfC would've been spared.
François Robere (
talk)
13:36, 29 June 2021 (UTC)reply
No, what I removed there was an insanely UNDUE and over the top section. You have the opportunity to propose a reasonable sentence or two right now, so why not do it? Volunteer Marek 20:26, 11 July 2021 (UTC)reply
I have a hard time following the original discussion, but irrespective of the outcome of this RfC I would support trimming down the section as a whole. --
Tserton (
talk)
23:23, 28 June 2021 (UTC)reply