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User:Petri Krohn has repeatedly attempted to attach Estonia-related categories to this article. This is not an Estonia-related article, nor does assert it is, thus, such categorisation amounts to
vandalism. I will revert them.
Digwuren09:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Are there any reasons to believe that declaring Estonia Judenfrei was not part of Holocaust in Estonia? Could you shre those reasons, please, instead of rapid-fire vandalism accusations?
206.186.8.13015:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
It's obvious -- this declaration was a part of the all-Europe Nazi campaign. A PR announcement, if you wish. The category is for Estonia-specific Holocaust articles, and this concept certainly is not one. Otherwise,
Holocaust itself would be in [[Category:Holocaust in Estonia]] -- obviously absurd.
It was part of Nazi campaign, but I consider it part of history of Holocaust in Estonia too. Your sarcasm about [[Category:Holocaust in Belgrade]] or [[Category:Holocaust in Berlin]] is valid, but obviously no wikipedians found it worthwile to create those categories. You see, Estonia is a country, and Belgrade and Berlin are cities. You are more than welcome to create those categories and I'll add links to this article immediately.
206.186.8.13018:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)reply
You're deliberately misunderstanding my point -- and it's not the first time, either.
I'm saying that of the region-specific Holocaust categories, the only one applicable to this term is Jews and Judaism in Europe. I won't create useless new categories.
Digwuren10:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Now, will you explain why not [[Category:Holocaust in Belgrade]] or [[Category:Holocaust in Berlin]]? Are these territories too insignificant for your tastes?
Digwuren17:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
As month has passed and most encyclopedic content has already been merged to other appropriate articles and this article shows no signs whatsoever of getting out of the stub status I would think it should be appropriate to make this page a redirect instead. Comments?
Suva10:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)reply
This cat is to be deleted
There is no such thing as "Holocaust in Estonia", instead it is "The Holocaust", the categoy is totally fake. All the articles tagged here are done so by
User:Petri Krohn, known anti Estonian POV pusher. There are no articles-categories "Holocaust in Latvia", "Holocaust in Belarus" or "Holocaust in Lithuania". This is simple Original Research and POV pushing and without whatsoever notability or reliable sources.
Belgrade-Judenfrei
Belgrade was the first city of a New Europe to be Judenfrei and was the only European capital that had concentration camps exclusively for Jews(Sajmiste and Banjica).
Schedule of rules of the military commander in Serbia no. 7-8, May 31, 1941" are the "Orders relating to Jews and Gypsies", among which, among other things, state:
1. Jews
(...) Paragraph 2. Jews must report two week to ... the Serbian police registration authorities.
Paragraph 3. Jews ... must wear a yellow band on their left arm with the word "Jew" written on it.
(...) Paragraph 4. Jews may not be public servants. Their removal from all institutions must be immediately performed by the Serbian authorities.
Paragraph 5. Jews cannot be allowed to practice the professions of lawyer, physician, dentist, veterinarian and chemist.
(...) Paragraph 7. Jews are forbidden to visit theatres and cinemas.
2. Gypsies
Paragraph 18. Gypsies are considered equivalent to Jews.
Even earlier, in the "Community news" (Opstinske novine) it had been proclaimed that "jews are forbidden to appear henceforth without a yellow band".
3. The duties of the Serbian authorities
Paragraph 21. The Serbian authorities are responsible for the carrying out of the commands contained in this Order.
4. Penal Measures
Paragraph 22. Whoever resists... shall be punished with imprisonment and a monetary fine. In aggravated cases the punishment will be penal sentence or death. Belgrade, May 30, 1941. (Printed commands of the Military Commander in Serbia, No. 7-8, May 31) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Taulant23 (
talk •
contribs)
04:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)reply
When Germans bombarded Belgrade on April 6th 1941 and then ocuppied Yugoslavia, Serbia was devided between Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria and Albania, and reduced to 1/3 of it's pre-war size (or 1/9, if we count the whole Yugoslavia, which was de-facto a Serbian state).
Sajmiste and Banjica concentration camps were created by Germans primarily as a measure of punishment for Serbian people, and were by no means exclusively Jewish. The rest of your text is also questionable, as it is a quote from hate-motivated Croatian book (Ljubica Stefan: From fairy tale to holocaust).
Current Status section has been deleted as it is not neutral POV and does not appropriately relate within the context of anti-semetic Nazi Germany policy. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
132.235.42.133 (
talk)
15:24, 10 June 2010 (UTC)reply
References
I noticed a number of references are the url to a Google Book link. I though editors might be interested in a tool which takes a link as input and creates a (usually) properly formatted ref.
I note that the IP who removed the reference to the August date for Serbia becoming Judenfrei has edit warred to remove that detail yet again without discussing here. There are four reliable sources that use the August date for Turner's declaration that Serbia was judenfrei; Cohen p. 83, Manoschek (although a page was needed), Cox p. 92–93 and Benz p. 86. There is also Haskin p. 29–30, and J. E. Pečarić p. 140. Lebel p. 329 even states that December 1941 is the appropriate date for Belgrade itself. Reliable sources that differ should be compared and contrasted, not deleted. This is central to the WP verifiability policy. And stop editing while logged out. It is transparent, and it can only be assumed you are socking.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
01:15, 26 January 2017 (UTC)reply
Yes, both should be there - by which I mean both assertions. According to the Christopher Browning source,
Emanuel Schäfer made his Belgrade-specific Judenfrei comment in May 1942. The Turner comment presumably applies to the whole of German-occupied Serbia. This is not actually made clear in Peacemaker67's edit, whose wording implies that there was just a single "Judenfrei" assertion but that there is doubt as to when it was made. Cohen is not a suitable source, nor a needed one. If Manoschek is suitable for the Schäfer assertion, he should be enough for the Turner one too. Cox also appears to cite Manoschek.
Tiptoethrutheminefield (
talk)
21:26, 28 January 2017 (UTC)reply
Your opinion of Cohen as a source is irrelevant. I'm not a huge fan of Cohen, but I use him where it is reasonable to do so. I object to people trying to remove him from Wikipedia. He has his biases, like many sources (including members of the Serbian Academy of Sciences). What I object to is POV warriors on either side trying to whitewash things. That is what is behind removing Cohen and other sources, and unsupportable interpretations of Begovic and others elsewhere. Belgrade (and occupied Serbia) didn't become judenfrei on one day because one guy said so, it happened over a period, probably from December 1941 onwards until August 1942. It is the fanatical insistence that only May 1942 is correct, and deletion of all sources that say something else, that I object to. We compare and contrast sources, we don't just delete ones we don't like because they don't fit our worldview or what we were taught in school.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
07:10, 29 January 2017 (UTC)reply
I don't know about the other editor's/editors motives, but for the subject you could probably say the same for all of the declared locations. We can only add the dates sources detail the declaration was made, and this article is just about that specific claim of completeness, not a history of what actually happened. Personally, I think the May 42 claim is realistic for what was claimed for Belgrade, given that the victims were being murdered under reprisals for Germans killed by resistance fighters and the Germans actually ran out of suitable (in their eyes) or easily accessible people to kill in those reprisals. I admit I have not got access to the Cohen book, but based on the content excerpts I've seen, and the reviews of it, and what I see as a similarity in methodology to parts of some Turkish and Azeri works intended to deny the Armenian genocide, I do not think it is a work just with some biases, I think it is a work written to deceive. Given the book's controversy if there are sources that say the same thing, better to use them, esp for something uncontroversial like a statement date.
Tiptoethrutheminefield (
talk)
01:54, 31 January 2017 (UTC)reply
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The
language is redundant and clunky. That this was a German sign is made abundantly clear by the article itself and by the caption itself - which has "The German inscription reads:". Captions are supposed to be short - not repetitive - "German-occupied ... German" is repetitive.
Icewhiz (
talk)
12:12, 18 August 2019 (UTC)reply
It is hardly unheard for countries to have captions/etc. in foreign languages. You noted that an uninformed reader may not know what country Bydgoszcz was in. They might as well assume that German is spoken in Poland (some people in Asia or Africa know very little about Europe), or that it was a multi-language caption we are showing only part of, put on the by Polish government (which presumably has jurisdiction over things we describe as 'in Poland'). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here12:43, 18 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Poland is a region, not just a state. Holocaust in Poland is clearly not a Polish government thing. Nor is Polish history 1800-1900. But stating this is a German sign, it is abundantly clear that this isn't a Polish government sign (which would generally be described as "Polish" both in language and in belonging to the Polish government).
Icewhiz (
talk)
12:52, 18 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Guys, as I see, the photo is from September 1939, roughly one month before the city was annexed to
Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussia, so it was Poland then, however German-occupied. If Piotrus mentioned that some systematism should be applied, it should be somehow the disctintion of German-Occupied Poland before any annexations , then the respective new status quo annexed and incorporated to Germany, having discintly the
General Government and in case
Bezirk Bialystok, i.e.(
KIENGIR (
talk)
23:53, 18 August 2019 (UTC))reply
Remember that few people who read this are exerts or even relatively well versed in history. I read something recently aboout average Jewish schoolchild in the US associating Warsaw Ghetto's hardships with stuff like 'only black and white TV was allowed'. I think that clarifications are almost always helpful; this is not a 'sky was blue' type of common knowledge for an ordinary reader. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here12:44, 19 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Ok, but we have to tend to some accuracy, since the unconditional support of the common knowledge of the ordinary reader is not always the best option, rendering in many complicated historical context bigger fallacies then a little bit more accuracy would lessen it. Regards!(
KIENGIR (
talk)
16:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC))reply
Argh - we don't have to repeat ourselves in the caption. We could just do -
diff - no "German occupied", but German replaced with Nazi. Is this sufficiently clear?
Icewhiz (
talk)
16:52, 19 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Misread. @
KIENGIR: Is there a way we can get rid of the clunky repetition of German? Crafting - "Synagogue in German'-occupied Bydgoszcz, Poland, 1939. The German inscription..." into a form that mentions "German" once?
Icewhiz (
talk)
17:17, 19 August 2019 (UTC)reply
If you ask it generally, I offer the same above...after an average month mostly, but in time sooner or later the German-occupied Poland was annexed/incorporated by Nazi Germany, so to get rid-of this phrase is not so heavy as it covers a short time (the exceptions not incorporated to Germany, but administered, etc. you may read above, may be treated differently), however such reference is very common and especially Poles may feel hurt instead of "German-occupied Poland" they would be generally presented as territories of Germany, however somehow we should stick to the status quo (the Soviet side of the occupation is as well complicated, since it was in a year shortly overcome by Germany, etc.). Locally here, I will introduce a bold edit to your request, decide if you like it or not. Best regards!(
KIENGIR (
talk)
17:25, 19 August 2019 (UTC))reply
reported in the SS-Standartenführer Emanuel Schäfer cable sent to the Reich Main Security Office in Berlin; Schäfer was the Der Befehlshaber der SIPO und des SD head at that time in Belgrade, What this citation speaks and which is purpose of existence of this information in the article. If someone can detect what it is all about. Thanks.
Mikola22 (
talk)
09:07, 25 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Jews in hiding, half-Jews (
Mischlinge), and Jews married to non-Jewish spouses continued to live in Berlin throughout the war.[1]
I don't see how this text is
WP:OR since the source supports what is attributed to it and it is a true statement. The actual presence of Jews in Berlin after the Judenfrei designation is obviously relevant to include because it clearly relates to the dictionary definition of Judenfrei—and at least one source says that the declaration was premature in order to coincide with
Hitler's birthday:[2]buidhe02:51, 26 May 2020 (UTC)reply
The second source is better in that it actually mentions Judenfrei. The source included in the edit I reverted did not make any mention of Judenfrei, so even if the statement was technically accurate, placing it in such a way that it is being used to explain how the declaration of Judenfrei was incorrect is synthesis of sources,
WP:NOR: "Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves". I wouldn't object to a mention being made of the declaration being premature and intended to coincide with Hitler's birthday, sourced to the Boyd book.
AmbivalentUnequivocality (
talk)
11:18, 26 May 2020 (UTC)reply
References
^"Berlin". encyclopedia.ushmm.org. Retrieved 26 May 2020.
I have added text to put the two terms into historical context, and their deplorable and racist usage by the Nazis. Both words are directly related to the Holocaust and do need some explanation to casual readers.
109.153.66.11 (
talk)
10:03, 12 June 2020 (UTC)reply
https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/a...7635384142 World Jewish Congress website "Jews lived in Algeria from the pre-Roman period to the early 1960s. There is no Jewish community left in Algeria today."(Accessed 19 March 2022)
1) That source was last updated in 2018. 2) It says: "The number of Jews living in Algeria is unknown, but historians estimate that the country’s Jewish population is made up of a handful of people, practicing in secret." 3) The article's
cited source (from 2020) says: "the State Department estimated around 200 Jews remained in Algeria in 2020". 4) I already explained this to you (see
my comment on your previous IP's talk page)
M.Bitton (
talk)
15:24, 8 April 2022 (UTC)reply
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
The "Modern usage" section is a canard, quite clearly used to divert attention away from Nazism, and put the blame for
antisemitism on Arabs and Muslims, even though the main perpetrators of Jew hate are in fact "white" Christians of European descent...as in the Hitlersreich. Why, then, is there no mention of the United States? Are we to pretend there are not entire counties in some states -- not just Southern ones, either! -- which ensure Jews don't live there? This is baloney, clearly POV, and should not be restored to the article. The fact that someone uses a word incorrectly doesn't automatically make it relevant to a WP article. And hey, if you think I have it wrong, then you should endeavour to add this context to your blurb. As it was at the edition I deleted, it's a baseless characterization designed to frame Muslims and Arabs as rabid Jew haters, when it was in fact they who gave shelter to the Jews from the European pogromists for CENTURIES.
142.126.167.40 (
talk)
13:39, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply