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Reporting errors
This
edit request to
John Anthony Brooks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
The entry for John Anthony Brooks Jr. begins as such:
"John Anthony Brooks Jr. (born January 28, 1993 in Berlin), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender."
This should instead read:
"John Anthony Brooks Jr. (born January 28, 1993 in Berlin), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is a German-American footballer who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender."
The above change should be completed because it is more factually accurate and represents the individual's (read: John A. Brooks Jr.) ethnicity more fully. Being American is entirely different from being German-American. Moreover, "footballer" is distinguished from "soccer player" as it harkens to a fuller representation of the sport as it exists outside the United States. That is, the sport is globally known as football. Changing "footballer" to "soccer" is an act of cultural dilution and "Americanization" of the term.
These changes should be instated immediately, as Mr. Brooks is sure to be a subject of interest for the foreseeable future.
Per
WP:OPENPARA we shouldn't have a hyphenated nationality for the subject. I don't see any discussion about it in the article, so we only list the team that he represents at the international level.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
16:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.
RudolfRed (
talk)
19:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Result: Both Brooks' German and American nationalities should be referred to in the opening sentence of the article.
Five editors supported "American" and four supported "German-American".
The main argument in favour of "American" was the claim that a consensus exists via
WP:FOOTY that only the most recent FIFA nationality of an international player should be mentioned in the opening sentence. However, this claim was also disputed, and no evidence of any such consensus was presented. There does not appear to be any codified rule specific to football. I spot-checked a few relevant articles, and found a mixture of approaches, with some mentioning multiple nationalities, some mentioning multiple nationalities but downplaying one or more (e.g. "a Brazilian-born Spanish footballer"), some not mentioning any nationality, but instead naming countries the person had played for and some only mentioning one FIFA nationality. Through looking at edit histories, I could also see that some editors involved in this discussion have also recently been active in enforcing their preference in the subject-area. Overall, I did not find evidence of consensus through looking at articles. Of course, my survey was not comprehensive.
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality was presented as evidence supporting the existence of a local consensus. However, this appears to be a set of notes connected in some way to the guidance set out at
WP:MOSFLAG. It relates to the issue of the inclusion of national flags in articles, and not to the contents of article leads, so it is not directly relevant to the question at hand.
I am led to the conclusion that editors who voted based on the belief that there exists a consensus to exclude from article leads nationalities not as defined by FIFA rules are mistaken in this belief. So, reduced weight should be given to those votes.
In favour of "German-American", the main argument was based on
WP:OPENPARA. While it is not impermissible to deviate from this guideline, I do not see that any good reason for doing so has been presented in the discussion. It was also argued that, given that Brooks was born in Germany and does not seem to have ever resided outside Germany, it would be odd to simply call him "American" in the opening sentence. I think this is a strong argument.
There was a parallel discussion at
WP:BLPN, but I did not feel that this added anything substantive to the discussion here.
Additional comments:
I am not personally keen on "German-American", since it may be mistaken for an ethnicity. Perhaps "German and American" or something like that would be better. Just saying.
It is obviously key to this close that I do not see a pre-existing consensus on the general question. If new evidence is presented about this, I may re-consider the close or re-open it for another closer. I will add though, that there would also be the thorny issue of whether a local consensus can override OPENPARA, which I'm glad not to have had to tackle here, so reversal of the close would not be automatic.
Editors who are unhappy with this close may wish to consider opening an RfC so as to sort out the question of whether specific guidance concerning nationality in the lead of football biographies is a good idea. This close hasn't particularly found that it is or isn't, just that there is not evidence of a consensus about it.
At what point, if at all, should Brooks' ethnicity be mentioned in the lede (i.e. is he German-American, American, or a soccer player who played for America)? The relevant wikipedia policy is
WP: OPENPARA. Editors who I know are interested are:
Walter Görlitz,
Mikemor92, and myself. The reason for asking for comments is because this could very easily turn into an edit war and should be established through consensus which includes non-involved parties. Thanks.
DJAMP444419:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)reply
It should not be mentioned in the lede. There should be a personal info or background section and it should be discussed there. The player's nation should not ever be linked per
WP:OERLINK.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
19:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Per §3 of
WP: OPENPARA, the opening paragraph should reference:
“…the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.”
Given this, it seems rather straightforward to include that Mr. Brooks is German-American. I am not sure why this is a question.
Alanna1991 (
talk)
20:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)reply
I am not so certain that it is 'straightforward'. The term German-American is quite dominating and it mustn't do so per the very same policy.
DJAMP444422:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)reply
If you give a clear explanation of what you mean by 'dominating', and can point specifically to the policy that precludes the expression of this 'domination', then we can begin to have a more productive discussion concerning whether or not Mr. Brooks being German-American should be present in the lede.
Anecdotally, however, through perusing other Wikipedia entries about individuals, one gets the impression that stating the nationality of an individual is very much warranted in the lede.
Kennedyflinn (
talk)
00:54, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Nationality is warranted. But in the case of a footballer, the football project is clear: the team that they are representing internationally is what should be mentioned.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
02:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
I'm certainly for "German-American". Brooks has not only the family and social background — Alanna (no relation) provides good examples below — but he has played for important teams of both countries.
Alandeus (
talk)
06:52, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Ignore the guideline? Yes and No (or "Jain" as they say in German). "Country of which the person..." for Brooks is BOTH Germany and USA, not EITHER/OR, personally as well as professionally, so no preferance needs to be given. (I can personally relate to that; although I sometimes say I'm 51% American and 49% German, but that's off topic now)
Alandeus (
talk)
08:23, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
I think it's fairly obvious that him being German-American should be mentioned in the lead. He's played international football for both countries, and leaving one out (the one that arguably he has more ties with) is not doing the article justice.
Number5708:18, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
The
WP:FOOTY project is (as far as I know) clear on this. We should show his FIFA nationality which is the nation he currently plays for (and apperently thinks he himself belongs to as he plays for them). It is the same for example
Diego Costa who moved from Brazil to Spain and is now spanish footballer. In some cases the nation has been removed in this discussions as a compromise, just saying "proffessional footballer/soccer player" but we should not involve "German". "American soccer player" is the way to go and one part of
WP:OPENPARA reads "...or if notable mainly for past events...", and in his past events he is american. QED237(talk)11:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
As a member of the project, I don't believe we are clear on this. I also don't understand why you think his German nationality is not of note. He has lived his entire life in Germany, spent his entire playing career in the Bundesliga (presumably using his German citizenship rather than being an overseas player) and has played for a German national team. To introduce him as solely American is showing a remarkably skewed view of the facts.
Number5712:12, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Exactly. He has dual citizenship and can therefore qualify to play for both the United States and Germany at the international level. He has played for the U-20 national teams of both countries. The reason that he is playing for the United States in this World Cup is simple: we asked him to. Germany did not. He is only playing for the United States for a few weeks and will then return to Germany to complete his contract with Hertha Berlin, which ends in 2017. Referring to him as "American" simply because he is playing for the USMNT for a few weeks is a gross misrepresentation of his history and background. I'm not sure if there are different manuals of style per language on Wikipedia, but it might be worth noting that the German article refers to him as a "deutsch-US-amerikanischer Fußballspieler" (a "German-American football player.")
Kennedyflinn (
talk)
14:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
He cannot play for both the USMNT and the German national team. Once a player is capped at the senior level for a specific nation, he can no longer switch allegiance. A switch is only granted if a player is capped at a junior level and then wants to play for a different nation at the senior level. And one of the many, many discussions on the topic at the football project can be seen at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality#Nationality to indicate.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
16:26, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
I believe he should be described as an "is an American international soccer player", but if agreement cannot be reached why not just state "is a professional soccer player. Born in Germany, he represents the United States at international level."
GiantSnowman11:37, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
I think the current wording
John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks, is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented the United States national soccer team internationally.
is correct and I don't think anyone is objecting to it any longer. However if I am misreading recent comments, an acceptable version would be
'''John Anthony Brooks, Jr.''' (born January 28, 1993), referred to as '''John Brooks''',<ref>{{cite web|title=Brooks: ‘It Was Not A Hard Decision To Play For The USA’ |url=http://www.ussoccer.com/News/Mens-National-Team/2013/08/Brooks-It-Was-Not-A-Hard-Decision-To-Play-for-The-USA.aspx|publisher=ussoccer.com|accessdate=August 14, 2013|date=August 14, 2013}}</ref> is a [[Defender (association football)|defender]] who player who plays for [[Hertha BSC]] in the [[Bundesliga]] and has represented the [[United States men's national soccer team|United States national soccer team]] internationally.
We would follow that opening paragraph with renaming the Club career section to biography or personal life or something similar and explaining, with sources, his birth and that entire situation or roll it into the International career section.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
00:53, 19 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Sounds like a good compromise: Leave the complicated nationality issue out of the lede and delve into it later. Just wonder why the "referred to as ..." part needs to be in there.
Alandeus (
talk)
06:52, 19 June 2014 (UTC)reply
I don't understand how you think no-one is objecting to the current introduction. I certainly am, and I don't think the version suggested is any better (it's hardly a compromise, as it still ignores his German nationality). The one suggested by GiantSnowman is more appropriate.
Number5715:12, 19 June 2014 (UTC)reply
I too am objecting to the current introduction. The proposed change is not as radical as some on here are making it seem. Nor is it in violation of any editing guidelines. The proposed change, to be clear, is to state that Brooks is a German-American soccer player, rather than an American soccer player. I do not understand why there is pushback against this proposal. It is a fact that he is German-American.
Kennedyflinn (
talk)
18:36, 19 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Support German-American in lede since he is a German-American. He was born in Germany, he grew up in Germany, he holds duel-citizenship. That makes him a German-American. There's no policy that says his nationality can't be mentioned in the lede of his BLP. To refuse to put this in the lede is POV pushing. Though why there's a refusal to do so is not clear, but it is POV pushing.SW3 5DL (
talk)
03:26, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
There's no POV. I'm not trying to hide anything. I am following editing guidelines which you either haven't read, don't understand or don't think apply in this case. This isn't a matter of supporting or opposing, it's a matter of editing per guidelines.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
04:34, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Walter, where in the editing guidelines do you find the reason for as you write, "German-American should not appear anywhere in the opening paragraph."? In
WP:OPENPARA, I find instead: "The opening paragraph should have:... Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity); In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen,..." After that, it states that ethnicity ought to be avoided though, but I don't think German-American is an ethnicity. Confused
Alandeus (
talk)
07:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Comment:
Walter Görlitz I did read the guideline. The problem appears to be that you are ignoring the guideline to push a POV, which is against Wiki policy. This doesn't seem to be a problem for the editors of the BLP for this
Canadian-American, or for the editors of the BLP for this
Jamaican-American Brooks is a German-American and his BLP should state that fact in the lede. If you can't see that, you should not edit this article.
SW3 5DL (
talk)
13:31, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Reply: I am not pushing a POV so you're mistaken. Michael J. Fox isn't a football player playing for a national team, at least the last time I checked that wasn't the case. The same can be said for Patrick Ewing. So I'm not sure if you know what is being discussed here.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
16:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Comment: It's explained
here that it's perfectly fine to include German-American in the lede since Mr. Brooks is a German-American. You and one other are the only ones who aren't reading the policy this way. The comments above and in the section below, all support including German-American in the lede. Michael J. Fox and Patrick Ewing don't need to be footballers. The policy is being applied to their biographies. This article is a biography and the MOS for BLP's is very clear. It doesn't show an exception for footballers.
SW3 5DL (
talk)
19:52, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Thanks for clarifying, but that' not a POV, it's a consensus decision. Stop misrepresenting the correct interpretation of guidelines as POV. Please strike your mis-characterization now.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
20:00, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
And while
Wikipedia:Other stuff exists is an essay about deletion of articles, it applies here. Just because other articles discuss hyphenated nationalities doesn't mean it applies to all articles. I can easily show you a dozen articles where there is no hyphenation for people who hold or held dual citizenships, but since that's not the issue, I won't.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
20:04, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
And the consensus decision is against you. You are pushing a POV to keep a policy based edit out of a BLP. Only you know why you're doing that.
SW3 5DL (
talk)
20:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
It's not. The consensus of the football project is in my favour. And I have explained why so there's no reason to speak as though I have some mental deficiency or conspiracy going on.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
20:04, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
I don't see any of the project members over here supporting your position. You are the only one opposing Mr. Brooks being characterized as a German-American. It's a simple statement of verifiable BLP fact. This is a BLP and the MOS for BLP applies here.
SW3 5DL (
talk)
20:59, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
I've checked the archives, and there are numerous discussions, none of which have a clear outcome or consensus (which is why it is discussed again and again).
Number5722:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Several discussions have been collected at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality, although that's about the single nationality to display in roster templates. There are a great many in the archive discussing what to do with players who do not have a national team and a FIFA-recognized nationality as well. Can't list them now. Will have time later in my day.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
22:43, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Three days later and still no evidence. As a project member, I am aware of numerous consensuses on several issues, but I do not recall a definitive agreement on this one. Beyond this, as
we discussed on your talk page, the omission of "German" from the lead does not seem defensible - the only argument put forward against it is this supposed consensus. And even if there was consensus, it's clearly bonkers and (per WP:IAR) should be ignored if it's harming the articles it relates to (and I would say that omitting the fact that a man (who was born, raised and has spent his entire career in Germany, and has represented that country internationally) is German from the intro of this article is a clear example of something gone very wrong indeed).
Number5716:36, 23 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Evidence of a consensus on what goes in the introduction. As you yourself stated, the discussion you linked to above is about a completely different issue (i.e. flags in the squadlist).
Number5717:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
One editor seems to have switched sides during the course of the discussion, which I have taken into account. The main thrust of the close is that the argument based on a pre-existing consensus is invalid, and so
WP:OPENPARA should be followed. In principle, it wouldn't change the direction of the close if editors had flocked to support this argument - it would still be invalid.
If there is evidence not presented above that it is actually a valid argument, then I am still willing to consider that and perhaps reconsider the close. If you think I have misread the consensus or my rationale is unreasonable, the best thing would be to post at
WP:AN with a subject heading such as "RfC close review requested", setting out as clearly as you can why you think I have made a mistake.
As stated above, I also wonder if an RfC on the general question of nationality in football biographies would be a good idea.
Formerip (
talk)
00:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)reply
And so it begins. The decision here and BLP was only to list FIFA nation. I'm not sure why the editor closing decided something different.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
13:55, 21 July 2014 (UTC)reply
Unless anyone has new information to present, I'm not going to reconsider the close. Anyone who's dissatisfied with that should post at
WP:AN, being as specific as they can about what they think is wrong with the close.
Formerip (
talk)
15:54, 23 July 2014 (UTC)reply
The lede reads: “John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented the United States national soccer team internationally.”
Instead, it should read: “John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is a German-American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented both the United States and Germany in international soccer tournaments.”
The original quotation misrepresents Brooks’ national identity. He was born in Germany to an American father and German mother. He grew up in Germany, where he has lived his entire life. He has never lived in the United States; as such, it is an overstatement to say that he is solely American. If anything, he is German of American descent.
In an interview with the Deutsche Bahn Konzern, Brooks noted that he displays both American traits (his name, his love of basketball, and his love of American music) and German traits (his playing style, as he lives in Germany and learned how to play soccer there). The interview is in German – his native language – and can be found at the following address:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwUbTuGn_nc
The original quotation also states that Brooks has “represented the United States national soccer team internationally.” While this is technically true, it would be more accurate to say that he has played for both the United States and Germany at the international level.
The excitement surrounding Brooks’ winning goal in the United States’ match with Ghana on June 16th is entirely understandable, and it may potentially cause Americans to want to claim him as their own. However, this attitude is intellectually dishonest and demonstrates neither the reality of his national background nor the standards of Wikipedia.
Alanna1991 (
talk)
04:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
It appears, to me at least, that
Alanna1991's suggested lede is not in violation of any editing guidelines. I have read both
WP:OPENPARA and
WP:MOSBIO, but am unclear on what exactly is being violated. Perhaps you can point me to the specific section(s) that you believe precludes the proposed edit?
Johncarbone (
talk)
15:51, 18 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2014
This
edit request to
John Anthony Brooks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Clearly a slow day for ESPN. I guess there’s no NASCAR or similar inane sport to broadcast or discuss. There is no vandalism here so they were disseminating a lie.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
20:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC)reply
What about Wikipedia's claim, that John Brooks is an AMERICAN soccer player ?
Facts are, that Brooks never lived in the USA or America
[1]. He was born in Berlin, grew up there and is playing Fußball (soccer) in Berlin, Germany.
Once again Wikipedia claims a person as someone they are not. Wikipedia's claims in the lead that Brooks is an AMERICAN soccer player. That, by itself in the lead, is a very misleading and inaccurate description. It disregards his factual life, home and upbringing.
Brooks (f)actually is a German soccer player, now also playing for the USA team in the 2014 worldcup, for which he qualified due to his US father. Therefore he is a GERMAN AND in 2014 AMERICAN soccer player, but he is NOT (only) an AMERICAN soccer player. Wondering about wikipedia's often misleading classifications(
50.173.166.172 (
talk)
17:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC))reply
It's discussed above (until it's archived) multiple times. Football player nationality is 1) their FIFA-recognized nationality, 2) if they have not played for a national team, it's their league-recognized nationality, 3) if there is no specification for either, then it's their birth nation unless they have relinquished that and adopted another. Discussion of nationality, birth place, etc. should take place in a section in the article and not complicate the lede.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
18:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)reply
What goes for Brooks' teammate
Jermaine Jones, who is called German-American by Wikipedia also goes for Brooks.
I wonder how John Brooks, several of his teammates and others feel about Wikipedia-ns "stripping them of" and denying their German citizenship ??? Wondering(
50.173.166.172 (
talk)
13:30, 28 June 2014 (UTC))reply
Ask him and let me know. It doesn't really matter because we've treated him the same as many other players who were born and raised in one country and then opted to play for a different nation's national team after playing for his birth nation's junior national teams and played in the domestic league of his birth nation. We did that to an American-born player who plays for Iran, an Australian-born player who plays for Turkey and many, many others.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
15:51, 28 June 2014 (UTC)reply
@ 50.173.166.172, I got that bit wrong myself, then somebody set me straight. It's the team he's playing for, which is the American team, and that makes him an 'American player.' Get it? Then, farther down is his nationality, which is clearly stated as German-American.
SW3 5DL (
talk)
21:28, 28 June 2014 (UTC)reply
If this guy really is [generally] referred to as "John Brooks", as is said in the lede, then why isn't this article at "John Brooks (footballer)"? We don't disambiguate people by their middle names, do we?
HandsomeFella (
talk)
19:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)reply
The previous John Brooks (English footballer) is now Johnny Brooks. You could move the existing John Brooks (soccer) to John Brooks (English footballer) and move JA Brooks to John Brooks (soccer). A player who has scored in a World Cup and played in the Bundesliga is unquestionably more notable than a guy with a fairly nondescript indoor career.
Dsmster (
talk)
19:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)reply
The thing is that he's American, which means that
WP:ENGVAR applies here, so the correct form would be "soccer player, born 1993" or something like that. As I stated above, I still think using the middle name is preferable to using profession and year of birth.
Sir Sputnik (
talk)
14:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)reply
Filling Citation Needed
The last sentence in the international career section is "Brooks is the only U.S. substitute to score a goal in FIFA World Cup play in the U.S. national team's history," and has a citation needed after it. In the article at
http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2014/06/15/16/42/140616-mntvgha-matchday states "Brooks became the first U.S. MNT substitute to score a goal in a FIFA World Cup." There, citation found. Add it.
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2016
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
I would like somebody to update his appearance statistics and goals for Hertha Berlin. He has been listed at 81 appearances and 4 goals since last the beginning of the 2015-16 season and yet has appeared 21 times in the Bundesliga this season with one goal scored. Here is the link: [1]
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Probably, the sentence which describes his transfer to Vfl Wolfsburg should be put on the 'Club Career' instead of 'International Career'
Glorian WD (
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19:13, 8 June 2017 (UTC)reply
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The sentence "The reported €20 million transfer fee is the record highest for an American soccer player." is no longer correct, because this record was subsequently broken by Pulisic's transfer to Chelsea. Change to "The reported €20 million transfer fee was then the record highest for an American soccer player."
Njsnyder (
talk)
15:38, 4 February 2021 (UTC)reply
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This is normal practice with various sports that don't have a word for "[sport] player". E.g., (basketball, born ____), (rugby union, born ____), (volleyball, born ____), (baseball, born ____). (So support per nom.)
SilverLocust💬08:14, 13 September 2023 (UTC)reply
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