This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

I agree the CCR suit is undue here, that doesnt have the coverage to merit inclusion, but the criticism of his policies on Israel do have that coverage. @ SPECIFICO, would you agree generally that criticism of the support Biden has provided for Israel merits including a sentence on it there? Or, as you reverts indicate, are you simply opposed to any coverage at all? Because you also removed Several scholars have accused Biden of being complicit in or permitting war crimes. citing Finucane, Brian (2023-11-17). "Is Washington Responsible for What Israel Does With American Weapons?". Foreign Affairs. ISSN  0015-7120. Retrieved 2023-12-14.. A number of other sources can be added if you think there isnt weight in sourcing here. nableezy - 17:23, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

My thoughts are, this is about his presidency, we can't clutter up this article with stuff about that. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:27, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

But why then include any part of it? It isnt NPOV to not include prominent controversies for the subjects we cover. If his position on the war is covered then so to should criticism of that position. If it doesnt belong at all, then neither does most of that section. nableezy - 17:41, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree, so why cover it at all. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:48, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Sure, if it was gotten rid of entirely I wouldnt be here. But covering it and not including criticism is why I am here. But currently we cover it in the lead and in a subsection, with nary a hint of any of the substantial criticism it has generated. nableezy - 18:02, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

There's criticism of Israel's responses to Oct. 7 but nothing substantial and widespread that's particularly personal to Biden. A few fringey criticisms -- that he's responsible for everything alleged to be done by Netanyahu (whom he views with profound disdain) -- don't make it significant enough for his bio. SPECIFICO talk 20:46, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

No, there is criticism of the United States in relation to Israel's actions, that criticism is about the policies of Biden, not Israel. And they certainly are not fringe. nableezy - 14:35, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

In addition to being FRINGE, we also cannot unduly associate "criticism of the United States in relation to Israel's actions" with this biography. SPECIFICO talk 17:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

There is criticism of Joe Biden's actions as president, which we cover at great length in his biography. nableezy - 17:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the CCR lawsuit is very much WP:UNDUE here. Regarding criticism of Biden's stances on the war, if additional sources could be provided it might be worth a sentence or two in the biography and possibly some more space in Presidency of Joe Biden. However, the way that sentence was worded seems weaselly. I don't have access to the full article to read the entire context, but assuming the sentence Several scholars have accused Biden of being complicit in or permitting war crimes is based on the lede's statement Further, U.S. officials risk complicity if Israel uses U.S. support to commit war crimes that seems like a misrepresentation of what the source actually says and how strongly it says it. Regardless, if criticism of Biden's positions on Israel were to be included it would need more sourcing to demonstrate due weight. The Wordsmith ^{Talk to me} 21:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it is absolutely bonkers that there isn't even a sentence such as "Biden's staunch support for Israel's military campaign in Gaza has sparked significant domestic pushback and protest. Many scholars warn that the United States risks being complicit in war crimes". This is pretty much just a down-the-line account of the situation. Let's do something here. Inspector Semenych ( talk) 23:28, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

It s not "bonkers" when what you claim is patently untrue. All presidents have supported Israel's right to self-defends. Many college-aged students and some liberal members of Congress support Palestine. This is all routine. Zaathras ( talk) 03:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

It is not routine. And what part of my claim is "patently untrue"? Inspector Semenych ( talk) 19:02, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

1) It is routine, and 2) pretty much all of it. Your position has gained no consensus, so it is time to move on. Zaathras ( talk) 19:05, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

You aren't actually responding to anything I said, it's just "You're wrong". Give me specifics. The SCALE is so much bigger than what has happened before, which makes it worthy and notable. Inspector Semenych ( talk) 19:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I was actually going to make a new section on this, but I think it's related to this section so I'll add it here:

The nickname "Genocide Joe" has gotten significant coverage, including a response from the White House. It's mentioned in John_Kirby_(admiral)'s article. So the question is, shouldn't it be mentioned here on Joe Biden's article, given that it's directed at him?

Just going off of news reports on Google, we have Yahoo News, CBS News, Washington Examiner, The Guardian, The Hill, CNN, Fox News, The Rolling Stone, Al Jazeera, and others providing coverage of this nickname. I think it makes sense to mention this "Genocide Joe" nickname here on Joe Biden's article, and the "Israel" subsection seems like a good place to put it.-- JasonMacker ( talk) 22:44, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

One's angry, frustrated little critics create pejoratives all the time, they are rarely noteworthy in that person's biography. It is certainly not noteworthy to the bio of John Kirby either, and should be removed. It was only added on Nov 27th to a little-trafficked Wiki page. Zaathras ( talk) 23:42, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

The sentiment is widely held throughout the Middle East. It has more importance internationally, I'd say, then a mere domestic policy dispute. KlayCax ( talk) 12:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

US is despised. Dog bites man. SPECIFICO talk 13:46, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I support greater mention of the backlash to Biden's policies re Israel-Hamas, potentially in the lede, depending on other's thoughts. I think this policy is likely to define his presidency in the foreign policy arena, and has already generated significant domestic discontent as well. "Genocide Joe" seems more approopriate for the article specifically about the protests. Inspector Semenych ( talk) 19:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

To this non-American, non-expert, Biden's position on Israel seems broadly the same as that of every president for the past 70 years. If it was different, it would definitely be worthy of comment, but without further explanation, I see very little of long term significance in it. HiLo48 ( talk) 02:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

It's significant because it is getting significant pushback in the streets, at universities, even among politicians in his own party. Inspector Semenych ( talk) 17:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

As opposed to strong support, as it would have in the past. Inspector Semenych ( talk) 17:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

That is not even remotely a truthful statement. Support of Israel and opposition to Hamas/Palestinians, and vice versa, does not hew to party lines. At the moment we see the likes of Candace Owens and Ilhan Omar condemning Israel, and the likes of Lindsey Graham and Joe Biden united in their Israel support. Even Donald Trump says he will support Israel by deporting pro-Palestinian student protesters. Zaathras ( talk) 17:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Strongly agree with the above re support/opposition cutting in unexpected ways, which is why the situation is notable and is (very,very probably) historic. Inspector Semenych ( talk) 18:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

This has become a significant issue for Biden and is the main cause for his decline in support among Muslim voters and possibly also why younger voters now favor Trump. Past presidents did not by the way routinely agree with everything Likud did, as Lawrence J. Korb, a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, points out. https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/05/24/ronald-reagan-wasnt-afraid-to-use-leverage-to-hold-israel-to-task/] I certainly agree that not everything that comes up belongs in the article, but this has now achieved due weight for inclusion. TFD ( talk) 21:53, 28 January 2024 (UTC):

Agree - Inspector Semenych ( talk) 02:39, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Last time when I added content about the issue to the paragraph "presidency 2021 - present" sub section "infrastructure and climate" it was removed as not enough important. Maybe I really made it too long for a summary page. But I think it worth at least 22 words. There are around 500 in this sub section currently I think. This is what I want to write this time:

"During his presidency Biden promoted nature conservation so much, that several records was broken. He took steps to protect Old-growth forests."

Those are the sources. They explicitly mention climate.

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-biden-administration-has-reached-conservation-records-in-2023/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/19/biden-forest-logging-ban-old-trees

Do you agree that it worth to be written? Alexander Sauda/אלכסנדר סעודה ( talk) 14:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Not here no. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:33, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

This edit request to Joe Biden has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Sleepy Joe Biden

Change to "Joe Biden, also known as Sleepy Joe Biden, is an American politcian Blah blah blah." DanRayy ( talk) 12:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

See wp:blp. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:58, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 ( talk) 15:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

They have been blocked now anyway. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:49, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

It should SecretName101 ( talk) 02:27, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

See farther up the talkpage, concerning this topic. GoodDay ( talk) 02:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

It seems like it should be worth noting on his bio as a previous office held. lots of other political leaders have a local offices listed before their entry into federal politics. just seems like it's a random thing to remove and I know it was there in the past 2600:1003:B111:9CE3:0:55:4B2:7101 ( talk) 23:00, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It is mentioned in the 2nd paragraph of the opening section, it doesn't need to be in the infobox. Zaathras ( talk) 00:34, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

This has been discussed in the past & the consensus was to 'exclude' from the infobox. GoodDay ( talk) 01:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Support keeping it at bottom of the page, not in infobox, as it is both important to the start of his carrer, yet minor when viewing his career as a whole. Inspector Semenych ( talk) 22:44, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Any thoughts on adding this position to the footnotes section of the infobox where the Senate chairmanships are? - Bokmanrocks01 ( talk) 15:53, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Why do we need it, what does it really add? Slatersteven ( talk) 16:02, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Helps provide an overall summary of Biden's political career? Keep in mind this is just in the footnotes section at the bottom of the infobox since its a minor point of the overall article. Example provided - Bokmanrocks01 ( talk) 16:33, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

It's fine there. Certainly a good compromise. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 22:56, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

No footnote. What's so important about his time on the New Castle Country council, that 'now & then', somebody wants to add it to the infobox? GoodDay ( talk) 23:21, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I say include it on his infobox. It was his first elected office. New Castle County had 385,856 in the 1970 census. If it had 12 district seats then (like it currently does) that means Biden would have been representing a constituency of 32,154. More than almost any state legislature seat. In fact, if he had been in the Delaware State House in the 1970s (which has 41 districts), he'd be representing only 13,368 constituents. I think nobody would oppose including a Delaware State House tenure in the infobox (in fact, it'd probably be listed outright rather than relegated to "other offices"), so why oppose an office where he represented a constituency multitudes larger?? We are talking a sizable county.

We often include county board tenures and city council tenures for politicians that have gone on to the House and Senate. What makes a VP/president so above us noting where they started? SecretName101 ( talk) 06:26, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Do we, examples? Slatersteven ( talk) 11:40, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Currently the lead reads:

"He oversaw the complete withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan that ended the war in Afghanistan, during which the Afghan government collapsed and the Taliban seized control."

Do we think this language in the lead softballs the perception of the United States' withdrawal from Afghanistan? I would like to discuss whether there is a consensus on adding in qualifying language in the lead that the withdrawal yielded bipartisan criticism and was described as chaotic, botched, and/or controversial. While "complete" withdrawal is objective, I feel that the language in the Donald Trump lead reads more critically and maybe we should try to be more balanced. In the Trump lead, for example:

1) "his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist;" 2) "His election and policies sparked numerous protests;" 3) "Trump promoted conspiracy theories and made many false and misleading statements;" 4) "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist and many as misogynistic" and it goes on.

Here are my sources to back up my proposition that the Afghanistan withdrawal be described more critically in the lead:

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/09/28/top-generals-afghanistan-withdrawal-congress-hearing-514491 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/18/biden-afghanistan-withdrawal-506065 https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/20/politics/house-republicans-afghanistan-biden-benghazi/index.html https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58238497 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-afghanistan-withdrawal-taliban-decision/ https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/2-years-withdrawal-afghanistan-continues-cast-pall-biden/story?id=102837216

P.S.: This is not supposed to be a "politically charged" comment. I just wish to have a conversation about building a consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ReidLark1n ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

The problem is I am unsure how "the Afghan government collapsed and the Taliban seized control." is not negative. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:58, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I think the withdrawal is separate from the collapse of the Afghan government because the casual inference "He oversaw the complete withdrawal" which led to the "Afghan government collapse" is incorrect. The question is more: "should the language already used later in the article be used in the lead considering another presidential lead uses similar language." ReidLark1n ( talk) 18:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

The opposition to the Afghanistan withdrawal were just the usual largely partisan screeds, with a dash of hypocrisy, as Biden only followed the plan Trump himself had laid out while in office. No change to the current text is necessary. Zaathras ( talk) 18:32, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

The language I proposed is used later in the article... ReidLark1n ( talk) 18:40, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

The withdrawal was always going to be chaotic. While it aroused controversy at the time, I don't think it has been long lasting. TFD ( talk) 18:43, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I think the lead currently is fine. Cwater1 ( talk) 19:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Here are some recent-ish sources: [1] [2] [3] [4]

Per these sources, combined with the ones above, I think that the article needs to be a little more critical of the withdrawal. Cessaune [talk] 03:57, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Since these cites criticize both Biden and Trump, wouldn't they fit better at 2020–2021 U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan than a bio of Biden? O3000, Ret. ( talk) 20:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

They can be applied in both contexts. Cessaune [talk] 20:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

If it is included here, then the criticism of Trump must be included here as it was his agreement and he is criticized in the sources. This would actually have the opposite effect that the OP seems to want. I don't think it's a good idea and the article is already lengthy -- which is why we have articles like 2020–2021 U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 20:32, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, if it's due it's due, regardless of if it isn't what the OP wants. Cessaune [talk] 20:35, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it makes sense be "critical" (which I would argue is actually being objective) of another president in the lead of this president's article. I also would support being "critical" of the same action in lead of Donald Trump (if the withdrawal was a major event related to Donald Trump, which it is not) and have no agenda here but to be WP:NPOV. My point isn't to be "critical" of Joe Biden but rather to balance the wording of both articles and to state what the majority of sources indicate. The sources are overwhelming in suggesting that withdrawal was either "chaotic, botched, and/or controversial." ReidLark1n ( talk) 22:22, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I would advocate that we mention the criticality in the lead as it pertains to Joe Biden, with an excerpt in the article (probably a sentence or two) that talks about the Biden-Trump stuff. It's a relevant, lasting part of his legacy and America's legacy as a whole. Cessaune [talk] 23:15, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

We do not know his legacy. WP:CRSYTAL We have another article in which this can be placed and is obviously DUE. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 01:10, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Do I need to bring more sources to verify my above statement? I can and I won't. Every single oppose comment above has been straight opinion, simple 'I think' sentences that don't provide any sources, reliable or otherwise, to qualify their statements, don't attempt to glance through the sources that have already been gathered, and fail to provide even the most basic reasoning/substance in their arguments. I'm not going to sit here and try to gather sources to prove something that I already think is decently demonstrated with the sources present, especially when this proposal is doomed to fail simply because people don't think ( WP:OR) X, Y, or Z. That's a waste of my time. Cessaune [talk] 02:31, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

What kind of comment is "we do not know his legacy WP:CRSYTAL?" We might as well not have a lead or remove all the critical language from any currently living President's lead. You're missing the point or choosing to ignore it. The article uses the language I proposed and to suggest it doesn't belong in the lead when this language would be in the Trump lead is to have a double standard. ReidLark1n ( talk) 05:31, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

What kind of comment is "we do not know his legacy WP:CRSYTAL?" It is a statement of Wikipedia policy. to suggest it doesn't belong in the lead when this language would be in the Trump lead is to have a double standard Where did I suggest anything like this? O3000, Ret. ( talk) 12:02, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

An editor has linked (since reverted) "1829 to 1837" to Presidency of Andrew Jackson, in the lead at the Andrew Jackson page. Is this what we're going to do for all the bios of the US presidents? Example here - Should we link "since 2021" or "and current" to the Presidency of Joe Biden page? I'm bringing this up here, as I suspect there's less eyes on the Jackson page. GoodDay ( talk) 22:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

many of the users are primarily interested in the presidency rather than all the other jobs in government--and we should help them out. The presidency articles are much deeper than the shorter bios. Erasing the link leaves users in the dark on where they should be going and does not help anyone. Rjensen ( talk) 22:37, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Ugh, this is a bad idea. Links should be intuitive and not surprising, per WP:EGG. If a reader is reading the Andrew Jackson article and knows absolutely nothing about the subject, what is the expectation of where a linked date range is going to take them? Will it be Jackson-related? Will it be to an article about a specific year? The decade? An important event? The text is too vague to be a worthwhile link name. I'm also having some sort of deja vu here. Didn't we already discuss something similar a few years ago at the Trump article? There was this manic craze by some editors once to link the "45th" in the "45th president" line, and go back and do all the presidents the same way. Zaathras ( talk) 00:50, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Yup & thankfully (at the Trump bio) it was rejected. GoodDay ( talk) 00:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Then we need an early statement that says this is about the person's entire life. For the presidency see Presidency of X that way the reader knows where to go. Rjensen ( talk) 01:43, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

You can link "as president" further down. Cessaune [talk] 07:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Is covered here Presidency of Joe Biden can we please not keep adding everything he does as president. The article is already too long. Lets only include stuff that RS say is significant about him? Slatersteven ( talk) 11:53, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

This information was reverted with the following edit summary: "So, this is about him, not his presidency".

Biden signed a record $886 billion defense spending bill into law on December 22, 2023. ^{[1] [2]}

In October 2023, Biden asked Congress for nearly $106 billion in funding for Israel, Ukraine, countering China in the Indo-Pacific, and operations on the Mexico–United States border. ^[3]

In 2022, Congress approved more than $112 billion in aid to Ukraine. In October 2023, the Biden administration requested $61.4 billion more for Ukraine for the year ahead. ^[4]

Supporting Ukraine and Israel are the most important foreign policy issues Biden has faced during his presidency, so I think it deserves a brief mention. -- Tobby72 ( talk) 18:51, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Not everything needs to mentioned nor every article needs to be created. Cwater1 ( talk) 18:01, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Should there be content on expert assessments of Biden? There are currently multiple public opinion polls listed, but none of experts. Biden is ranked as the 14th best president of all time (top third) per a poll of historians and presidential experts. ( NYT) A 2022 Siena College Research Institute poll ranked him as the 19th greatest president of all time. ( Boston Globe) KiharaNoukan ( talk) 20:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

It would seem a little premature to be discussing historical rankings while still in office but who knows, how has the Wikipedia handled this before? When did such rankings first appear in the Donald Trump article? Zaathras ( talk) 23:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I think we included them in the Trump article during his term, but I could be wrong. If historians think they have enough info to rank Biden amongst the other 45 presidents at this point, who are we to argue? I think we can find room to include it. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 23:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think rankings were added to the lead until after Trumps presidency, but I don't know about the body. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 00:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be undue in the lead here, but can go in the body. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 01:24, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

No, any ranking should not be added until after his presidency ends. I would also question the validity of the rankings itself as Biden continues to have the lowest approval rating of any president in recorded US history, which showing him being ranked "14th" will generate a lot of controversy if added to his page. ZR1748 ( talk) 00:49, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

1. General approval ratings are not at all relevant to the Siena College Research Institute.

2. Where did you see he has the lowest approval rankings in history? This is very difficult to believe.

3. We don't care about controversy.

4. Having said that, it would be good to wait. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 01:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Support waiting until after his first term because his presidency is still ongoing, and the results of the 2024 United States presidential election may influence his rankings.

I believe his low approval ratings since late 2021 to the present should be mentioned after his first term, but separately from historical/scholarly rankings of his presidency. JohnAdams1800 ( talk) 03:24, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Biden DOES NOT have the lowest approval rating of any president in recorded US history. Saying he does is lying. Posting nonsense like that simply shows your own extremely biased position. It certainly won't convince anyone to not vote for him. This non-American knows that rankings of Presidents in the short term are always closely correlated with the party someone supports. Objectivity in such assessments is rare. HiLo48 ( talk) 03:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

https://news.gallup.com/poll/547763/biden-ends-2023-job-approval.aspx -- FMSky ( talk) 13:44, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

History began in 1979? Wow, I took history classes decades before history existed. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 14:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea on Trump's article, I disagree with it for the same reason here, let's wait until, after his presidency. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:50, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Ranking of presidents should be omitted from both Biden's & Trump's pages. Biden is still in office, while Trump has only been out of office for a short period of time & might return to office. GoodDay ( talk) 17:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Biden has mishandled classified documents, but will not be prosecuted due to his poor memory. This should be added to the article.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/rcna96666

Mn06hithere227 ( talk) 02:44, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

A partisan holdover from Trump's DoJ taking potshots because he couldn't find anything actionable is not news. Zaathras ( talk) 03:01, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Please wait until all of this is documented in reliable sources. And be cognizant that this is a WP:BLP and refrain from making statements like: but will not be prosecuted due to his poor memory. when that is clearly not the actual rationale. WP:NODEADLINE O3000, Ret. ( talk) 03:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Goldwater rules applies and this is bordering accusing him of dementia, do not add this or at least add a notice mentioning how this has been accused of partianship and the goldwater rule not being respected NotQualified ( talk) 12:25, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

maybe i am mistaken however, i am also aware youre allowed to at least say someone is showing signs of a condition (as the 100+ medically trained psychologists have said trump is showing clear signs of rapid degenerating dementia) (not related at all to biden so dont add it) NotQualified ( talk) 12:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Let the dust settle & don't rely on an individual's opinion in this matter, unless they're a neurologist. AFAIK, section 4 of the 25th amendment, isn't being considered for invocation. GoodDay ( talk) 03:15, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

"could portray himself as an "elderly man with a poor memory"", so in fact not a clear cut as implied. Slatersteven ( talk) 10:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm just seeing this now... I made an edit [6] over at the Public image of Joe Biden article. Perhaps due for here too. SmolBrane ( talk) 17:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

It definitely seems notable now, at least briefly.

• New York Times states: Special Counsel Report Is Legal Exoneration but Political Nightmare for Biden.
• The Washington Post: Special counsel report paints scathing picture of Biden’s memory
• Axios: Special counsel details on Biden's memory lapses shock Congress
• Politico: Playbook: A day Biden world wishes it could forget

Definitely deserves mention. KlayCax ( talk) 18:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Additional sources are appreciated. Whether this goes under 'public image' or the current presidency should be discussed. And whether it warrants its own subsection. We also need to integrate against the current content which states

During his presidency, several Republicans have criticized Biden's publicized gaffes as related to cognitive health issues due to his age, which Biden has repeatedly denied.

This has been quick+dirty editing on my part but I didn't see much about this being a partisan matter. SmolBrane ( talk) 18:47, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for those additional sources. Mn06hithere227 ( talk) 19:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Lets be clear the claim is "he could portray himself as an "elderly man with a poor memory"", not that that he is. If this is included we have to be accurate. Slatersteven ( talk) 19:00, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

He also portrayed Biden has having poor memory.

• Page 9: “Mr. Biden’s memory was significantly limited, both during his recorded interviews with the ghostwriter in 2017, and in his interview with our office in 2023.”
• Page 208: “Mr. Biden’s memory also appeared to have significant limitations … Mr. Biden’s recorded conversations with [ghostwriter Mark] Zwonitzer from 2017 are often painfully slow, with Mr. Biden struggling to remember events and straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries. In his interview with our office, Mr. Biden’s memory was worse. He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being Vice President?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still Vice President?’).”
• Page 247: “For these jurors, Mr. Biden’s apparent lapses and failures in February and April will likely appear consistent with the diminished faculties and faulty memory he showed in Zwonitzer’s interview recordings and in our interview of him.”

(From link above.) KlayCax ( talk) 19:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

We definitely need to include something about the Hur report. However, Hur concluded that he was "a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with poor memory." is not that. Hur does not have the medical qualifications to be commenting on Biden's memory. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 19:07, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I was about to ask where he got his medical degree. This is all quite odd. In such depositions, many people say "I don't recall" or other such in response to large numbers of questions without any concluding suggestion of poor memory. More time may present a clearer picture. An encyclopedia has an advantage over the press. The press are concerned over competition and must print immediately. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 19:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

We could say (assuming we agree its not undue) that "hur says that Biden had a poor memory". But the quoted lines do not line up with "an elderly man with a poor memory". Slatersteven ( talk) 19:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Isn't this up to our secondary sources to determine for us? Do we have reliable sources saying that Hur or the report are unqualified for the assessment? It would appear DUEness outweighs a procedural objection on medical reliability here. SmolBrane ( talk) 20:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

When multiple psychiatrists warned of a previous president's mental state, we questioned their qualifications, even though they were psychiatrists, due to the fact they hadn't interviewed him. And over the Goldwater Rule. Anyhow, we will follow RS once they have fully digested the report. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 20:29, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

If we were discussing Alzheimer's or dementia I would find this more persuasive. I'm not convinced 'memory problems' constitute a medical diagnosis. Will wait for further editors. SmolBrane ( talk) 21:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Google memory problems and you get a slew of medical sites. Besides, it was linked to Biden's age, by a person with no medical qualifications. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 17:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

if you want to be clear the report states “Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury, AS HE DID DURING OUR INTERVIEW OF HIM, as a sympathetic, well meaning, elderly man with a poor memory”. The decision to not add the special counsel’s reasoning for not charging Joe Biden is laughable. I especially love that that he was found guilty by a Trump appointed holdover (not true), as if that validates Biden not being charged, but when it comes to explaining why he wasn’t charged it’s because it’s a vindictive Trump appointed holdover. You want to have it both ways. WhowinsIwins ( talk) 05:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I find it peculiar that Hur includes speculation as to what Biden's "likely" defense might be, as a vehicle to include "a sympathetic, well meaning, elderly man with a poor memory." Hur was not a Trump holdover, but he is a Republican whom Trump appointed as a US attorney in 2018 and he resigned when Biden took office. Hur's inclusion of the "poor memory" content has echoes of when James Comey, a lifelong Republican at the time, announced in 2016 he would not recommend charges against Hillary, but then immediately cast aspersions upon her, which violated longstanding DOJ policy to avoid tarnishing the reputations of people who have not been indicted. If you can't indict 'em, smear 'em, especially when they're a presidential candidate against the leader of your party. soibangla ( talk) 06:16, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like your assessment. We don’t rely on that here. Nice theory. Helpingtoclarify ( talk) 02:46, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Poor memory: should we conclude that Ivanka Trump is becoming senile because she answered "I don't recall", "I don't know", and "I don't remember" numerous times when she was questioned as a witness in the civil fraud lawsuit against her father? Space4Time3Continuum2x 🖖 14:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Any RS sources saying she has memory issues? There are DOZENS on Biden. Helpingtoclarify ( talk) 02:44, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Biden confused the president of Egypt, with the president of Mexico. He also mentioned Mitterand as the current French president. I'm not suggesting any of these verbal mistakes be included? But it's becoming more difficult to exclude. GoodDay ( talk) 19:19, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Even CNN is saying how the White House and Biden's allies are in panic mode following the release of documents mentioning Biden's mental health. I think it is worth mentioning the release of the documents in the article.

• Biden’s allies can’t agree on how to combat questions about his age and memory
• Biden tries to lay to rest age concerns, but may have exacerbated them And1987 ( talk) 21:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

We can include mention of the report, but we aren't going to use news media's sensationalization of it. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 22:06, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Wow! That's a lot of responses. I would like to thank all of you for offering your opinions on whether or not this should be included. Also thank you for posting links to other sources. I will go along with whatever the talk page consensus ends up being. I think it's a great idea that some of you said this needs more time. Again, thank you for your comments Mn06hithere227 ( talk) 19:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

What is this nonsense? Stop trying to suppress info and put this into the article please -- FMSky ( talk) 20:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

No one is trying to suppress the subject. Just trying to determine what the addition will look like. WP:AGF O3000, Ret. ( talk) 20:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. We have no deadline as we strive to get it right the first time. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 20:19, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia is not censored ( WP:NOTCENSORED) so please stop claiming that it is. Kasperquickly ( talk) 11:17, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Classified documents/information. Here are the bottom lines from Glenn Kessler's analysis of the five specific sets of “documents discovered in the year-long investigation and whether Biden willfully retained national defense information or willfully disclosed it". ^[1]

• Interviews with ghostwriter: "…the report concludes that the case would be weak, given the Reagan example and given that Biden generally appeared to be careful to not repeat classified information to someone not cleared to receive it".
• Afghanistan documents: "The report concludes it cannot claim that Biden willfully kept this information — and that it may no longer be that sensitive anymore.".
• Handwritten Thanksgiving memo: "The report concludes that Biden did not think this memo was classified and it probably was not."
• Classified materials found at Penn Biden Center and at the University of Delaware: The report exonerates Biden and blames staff error. Space4Time3Continuum2x 🖖 15:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Fact check article from CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/09/politics/fact-check-biden-makes-three-false-claims-about-his-handling-of-classified-information/ Mn06hithere227 ( talk) 17:30, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Consensus #39: Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. The editors on the page have been adhering to the consensus, e.g., haven't mentioned Trump confusing Nicky Haley with Nancy Pelosi several times, mistaking E. Jean Carroll for his second wife Marla, accusing Biden of going to start World War II, claiming that his opponent in 2016 was Obama, etc. Hur and his subordinates are neither qualified nor were they tasked to evaluate Biden's memory or mental fitness for office. Space4Time3Continuum2x 🖖 12:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Much as I dislike whataboutisms, this does have the germ of a valid point. In an election year we much go the extra mile to avoid bias. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. GoodDay ( talk) 16:45, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

It is a good standard and one we must apply to this page, much as we did to Trump's. The Goldwater rule, in effect. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 16:51, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

This seems notable. KlayCax ( talk) 03:33, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

The fact that this is even a discussion shows the state of this encyclopedia. There is not a single logical reason to not include it -- FMSky ( talk) 03:35, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, I'm guessing any mention of the US president's mental fitness to serve? will be based on whether or not section 4 of the 25th amendment has been invoked. AFAIK, the US vice president & a majority of the cabinet have no plans, to invoke. GoodDay ( talk) 03:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Do we have policies that require us to wait for such an invocation? Due weight is the policy that overarches and our RSes are not pulling punches here. SmolBrane ( talk) 03:50, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not certain (policy wise) what the bar/criteria for inclusion is. GoodDay ( talk) 04:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Can you humor me and outline your uncertainty more clearly? You have an extraordinary edit count and I don't see the issue... I must be missing something. Your response is truly bewildering. SmolBrane ( talk) 04:36, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I neither support or oppose what's being proposed. My experience tells me the bar will be high, to gain a consensus for inclusion. GoodDay ( talk) 04:43, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

An OpEd is not notable. Zaathras ( talk) 04:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

As ever, weight requires extensive ongoing coverage, so we have to wait. However, this is a country that elected Reagan, George W. Bush and Trump, so maybe mental acuity isn't a requirement for the office. TFD ( talk) 06:35, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

There is not a single logical reason to not include it. It states "opinion" at the top of the cite. That makes it not RS. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 16:59, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

See above - We go by the Goldwater rule, for these situations. GoodDay ( talk) 16:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

While I myself overwhelmingly agree that this "news" should *NOT* be added to this article, I am somewhat concerned about how this non-inclusion would be perceived by the simpler people, particularly right-wing people on the Internet, who would likely assume that we the Wikipedians are trying to censor information and this might end up damaging the Wikipedia's brand. Does anyone else here have the same concern about that? Kasperquickly ( talk) 23:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Our overall goals branch from the WP:Five Pillars. There is nothing in our goals about satisfying the right-wing or left-wing. An advantage we have over a politician or news (or "news") source. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 01:00, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Why is the text below acceptable in the article on the document investigation but is not OK in Biden article??? It’s all sourced and this is such a mainstream discussion. Let’s just copy it here.

Concerns about Biden's age, memory, and mental acuity have been raised throughout Biden's term as president, especially heading into the 2024 presidential election. CNN, NBC, and The Guardian have described concerns regarding Biden's age and memory as his greatest political vulnerability. A NBC News poll conducted shortly before the release of Hur's report found that 76% of voters expressed major or moderate concerns about Biden's mental and physical health. Helpingtoclarify ( talk) 01:56, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

An article about a specific topic is about the specific topic. A general biographical article cannot include everything related to a person who has had such a lengthy career, which is why there are many sub-articles about Biden. Inclusion here should look at if an item is likely to pass the WP:ten year test. The news cycle these days is such that everything is "breaking news", and most of it fades quickly away. This report calls for no prosecution and gives one Trump supporters' supposed view based on questions that appeared to have no rationale related to the subject of the deposition. Patience is always useful in such situations. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 03:30, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

We can't please all of the people all of the time (after all how would this addition be perceived by left-wing people?). Nor can we please some of the people all of the time, what we can do is strive to please none of the people all of the time (as in we do not have this on Page X we will, not have it on page Y). Slatersteven ( talk) 11:48, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

^[1]

‘To my Russian brothers and sisters, I’m sorry right now that American elites are choosing to have such an aggressive stance.’

i feel it's only fair at this point to mention russia has tried smearing biden ^[2] before irrefutably and due to the inconsistencies in her accounts between just one year (in the article already) there is the extremely high possibility (but NOT guarantee) this is a smear campaign designed to discredit America and biden. i want there to be an editor's consensus on this because this is all highly contentious, but id feel like we'd be beyond remiss to not bring it up. if you read the quotes in the article you can draw you own impression on if you think they come off as scripted. the cia are also suspicious of this ^[3]

'Several former U.S. intelligence officials told USA TODAY that they were puzzled by Reade's actions and public statements − and highly suspicious of them.'

while none of can definitively say, her accusation is not only inconsistent and timed in a way that makes no sense (biden has ran for election before and she claims he sa'd her in the 90s), why didnt they speak up then if they claim they did it because they didnt want joe to be president, but is also ringing of russian misinformation and her actions show as much. none of clinton's accuser or trump's accusers have ever be falsely arrested or died on suspicious circumstances (to my knowledge), her claims of feeling 'unsafe' have no historical merit to my knowledge. her claims are unfalsifiable by nature as well (however that is normal for claims this old).

look, i want to have consensus among us, regardless of your political opinions on the guy, on whether or not we have to add in some possible warnings. some of the stuff above i mentioned obviously she go in like her defecting or the cia's stance, but this is all just off. sorry if this comes off as editorialisation, thats why i am asking for consensus among all of you on how to approach this so we can have wisdom of the masses.

here are more verbatim quotes where you can judge for yourself ^[4]

“You have U.S. and European citizens looking for safe haven here,” Reade added. “And luckily, the Kremlin is accommodating. So we're lucky.”

In the hours-long Tuesday conversation—which was live-streamed on Twitter that garnered about 500 viewers—Reade touched upon a litany of topics, ranging from Russia's ongoing war with Ukraine to her critiques of America's “terrible” roads. She asked Russian President Vladimir Putin for citizenship, although she denied any pre-existing ties to Russia. NotQualified ( talk) 12:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I would like to apologize for having added the car accident photos back in December 2023. I take full responsibility for it, and it was a completely insensitive action on my part, especially for a biography of a living person. I will be more careful with any photos that I add from now on. I also would like to apologize for making this apology so late. I had to take some time off to come to terms with what I did, and it is not anyone else's fault but mine for taking the time off. FunnyMath ( talk) 20:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The reason nobody has replied is because nobody cares anymore. It wasn't a big deal then, and definitely is water under the bridge by now. I'll go ahead and say, on behalf of everyone, apology accepted. Now that you understand why adding those photos wasn't a popular idea, you shouldn't have any more issues. Happy editing. Philomathes2357 ( talk) 23:20, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello. On new pages patrol I have come across this article. According to NPP this was previously deleted. Looking at the edit history an IP restored or created this page from a redirect page [7]. Just letting people know. There is a note at the top of the article that this page was split-off per a talk page discussion somewhere. Let me know what we are supposed to do with this. --- Steve Quinn ( talk) 19:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, now I can't find that note at the top of the article - it was edited so it would not actually appear in the article. ---- Steve Quinn ( talk) 19:42, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

TBH, I'm not a huge fan of these "Vice Presidency of..." pages. The "Presidency of..." pages, should be enough. GoodDay ( talk) 19:45, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree. The "Presidency of..." should be enough. And a Vice Presidency page for Joe Biden seems to be irrelevant at this time. Also, his vice presidency is covered well enough in his bio. --- Steve Quinn ( talk) 23:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe that the announcement of Joe Biden deciding not to retaliate against Iran after Iran fired missiles at Israel should be added to this article, as it relates to his current political decisions. Pilotnance ( talk) 17:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

That would be more relevant to Presidency of Joe Biden or Foreign policy of the Joe Biden administration. We have no way of knowing how defining such an announcement will be to Biden's entire life. 331dot ( talk) 18:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I am sorry, I did not know those were separate articles. I will go to those articles and ask there. Thanks, Pilotnance ( talk) 18:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Under Second Marriage, it says "Beau Biden became an Army judge advocate in Iraq and later Delaware attorney general"

He became a military lawyer in the United States, later serving in Iraq. By then, he was already elected the Delaware attorney general. This should read "Beau Biden was elected the Delaware Attorney General as well as serving as a lawyer in the Delaware Army National Guard."

Does Iraq need to be mentioned? If so, it can be tacked on the sentence I suggest. ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen ( talk) 15:28, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Joe Biden famously suffers from Atrial Fibrillation. I think this should be mentioned. NyMetsForever ( talk) 15:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Why? Slatersteven ( talk) 16:05, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Not unless it has required the invocation of the 25th amendment, sections 3 or 4. -- GoodDay ( talk) 16:30, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there significant coverage in any WP:RS covering this? MaximusEditor ( talk) 21:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

That's asymptomatic atrial fibrillation. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 21:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to be stopping him from doing his duties as president. Only if it affects his duties. Cwater1 ( talk) 17:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello, @ Esterau16:. Is there a reason you removed the protests surrounding American involvement in the 2023 Gaza-Israeli War? It's dominated the headlines for months. Beyond this, the port that the Biden administration has ordered the United States to build has been widely ridiculed by experts as at best symbolic, as it doesn't possess the ability to measurably reduce hunger during the ongoing Israeli man-made famine in the Gaza Strip.

It seems clear to me which events should be included in the lead. KlayCax ( talk) 16:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

1) Your edit is not neutral. You try to make the protests look like something that is supported by the vast majority of Americans. 2 recent polls show the opposite. According to a recent poll by YouGov ^[1], 48% of Americans oppose pro-Palestinian protests on college campuses, while only 27% support them. Another recent poll by Morning Consult ^[2] found similar results: 47% of Americans said they favored banning pro-Palestinian protests on college campuses, while 30% were opposed.

2) The non-recognition of the Palestinian State is an issue well before the current war between Israel and Hamas, which began on October 7, 2023. It is the historical position of the United States, and not something that originated with Biden or with the current war between Israel and Hamas, started on October 7, 2023.

3) The port that Biden ordered to be built is not yet operational, so it is hasty to make value judgments. But regardless of this, the Biden administration has sent humanitarian aid to Palestinian civilians, ^{[3] [4] [5]} and this is an important fact that cannot be ignored.

4) In your edit summary you falsely said that Biden did not support a ceasefire. Biden has said he is in favor of a ceasefire; ^[6] there are even mediators from the US government in Egypt negotiating to achieve it. ^[7] The Biden administration even recently suspended the shipment of a weapons package to Israel. ^[8] Esterau16 ( talk) 12:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

To add to what has been noted above, Klaykax's edit places undue weight on the issue, IMO. This is Biden's bio; the article really shouldn't go too deeply into this issue. Some of the material would be better placed on one of the articles about Biden's presidency. Aoi (青い) ( talk) 12:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

1.) The port will not significantly diminish starvation in the Gaza Strip. There's an unanimous consensus among reliable sources about this. Land and air delivery is needed to actually accomplish this. It's symbolic at best.

2.) It is true that non-recognition of a Palestinian state has been US policy. That being said, the United States has become dramatically isolated on the issue. However, I'm alright with possibly removing this from the lead.

3.) The text doesn't say that the protests are supported by the vast majority of Americans. It says that the protests are supported by a significant percentage of them. The latter is undoubtedly true.

4.) Biden isn't for a ceasefire as long as Hamas retains control of the Gaza Strip. He's for temporary ones. Regardless, none of that is stated in the edit, since he's been pretty ambiguous about the terms and conditions.

It's not undue weight. Scholars such as Jeffrey Ostler (who is quoted on many Wikipedia articles regarding genocide) has argued that the Biden administration is guilty of violating the Genocide Convention. KlayCax ( talk) 16:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Well you have pieced together one hell of an indictment of Biden. Part of this may belong in his presidency article at some point. But this article is about Joe Biden then man and his 50 year career. I don't see how any of this belongs here, and certainly not in the lead. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 16:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

We include protests for LBJ, George W. Bush, and Trump in their articles, why wouldn't we include it in this article?

I'm alright with modifying the sentence. However, some mention of protests undoubtedly merits mention, and the port shouldn't be mentioned in the lead. KlayCax ( talk) 17:24, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Tens of millions worldwide protested before the Iraq War. One estimate says 36,000,000. Tens of millions worldwide also during the Vietnam War. I attended several. Thus far not much of a comparison. Give it some time. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 17:46, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that we don't know yet the long-term consequences of Biden's support for the war. Johnson was forced to give up his re-election bid. We found out that Bush mislead the public about WMDs in Iraq. If, as Biden hopes, the issue fizzles out before the election, then there is little to add. We have to wait and see. TFD ( talk) 18:09, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Beyond the port in Gaza, the Biden administration has provided millions of dollars in humanitarian aid to Palestinian civilians in Gaza. ^{[9] [10]} The Biden administration has also sent humanitarian aid by air. ^[11] Any changes that are made must mention this.

Regarding the protests, KlayKax only intend to highlight those who support them, ignoring those who oppose them, even though polls show that many more Americans oppose them. Esterau16 ( talk) 18:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not trying to only highlight those. But it's an undoubtedly a major part of his presidency.

At the very least: aid shouldn't be in the lead if relief organizations believe it won't significantly reduce or end the Gazan famine. KlayCax ( talk) 03:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

And it would be WP: CRYSTAL to state that the aid is important. KlayCax ( talk) 03:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

It is also CRYSTAL to suggest it isn't. We'll see. The routes for aid via roads are now closed. The floating port assembly is complete and badly needed aid is now arriving. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 11:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

This quote from Public Image seems to almost border on racism:

"The political writer Howard Fineman has written: "Biden is not an academic, he's not a theoretical thinker, he's a great street pol. He comes from a long line of working people in Scranton—auto salesmen, car dealers, people who know how to make a sale. He has that great Irish gift." Starlighsky ( talk) 12:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

UNsure about that, but it does seem rather trivial. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:01, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Going to agree with Slatersteven here. I'd more assume it a trivial quote rather than looking any deeper into it. MaximusEditor ( talk) 21:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

To be honest, it seems to describe Biden as resembling the "sleazy used car salesman" stereotype. Not a compliment. Dimadick ( talk) 13:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Exactly...and it basically tries to throw in a basically racist comment at the end. If you replace Irish in "great Irish gift" with any the name of any community struggling with discrimination today, you can likely see my point. Starlighsky ( talk) 13:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

It's actually complimentary. U.S. politicians like to brag about their alleged plebeian roots and how they succeeded against all odds, setting an example for the rest of us. I would rather however see academic sources explain the "working class Joe" narrative than partisan editorials. TFD ( talk) 21:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

How do you measure a theoretical thinker? Academe is filled with prejudices even against others in different areas of academe. I think it's just a silly comment not worthy of mention. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 22:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree and would think it would make sense to delete the quote. Starlighsky ( talk) 22:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The quote is from someone who makes money from writing about politicians. His goal is to gain your attention, rather than make deep philosophical observations. I don't think it belongs. HiLo48 ( talk) 23:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Per the above discussion, I have removed the quote. QuicoleJR ( talk) 15:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Biden had a standing ovation and addressed the documentary's coverage of assault on college campuses and the need for change. It was a very important action for the very serious issue. I am confused to why that was deleted.

Starlighsky ( talk) 03:08, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

It was deemed trivial by the editor who removed it. I do wonder if it is something worth specifically calling out on the article about his entire life; it may be more appropriate for Political positions of Joe Biden or Presidency of Joe Biden. 331dot ( talk) 07:37, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

What was deleted was a about, during the Academy Awards, a vice president making a brief speech against rape on college campuses and introducing Lady Gaga's song which addressed the same issue.  Starlighsky ( talk) 12:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

So is this a significant event in HIS life? Slatersteven ( talk) 13:00, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I would think for the majority of those reading the article, it would be considered as so. Starlighsky ( talk) 13:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I hope it is not misunderstood as to what I am about to write, but it is the kind of information that Trump supporters would be happy to know was deleted.  Starlighsky ( talk) 13:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not care what they think, I care what I think. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Which is good thing. I just find the article a bit biased and am trying to help. Here is another example from this article. I want to again mention how Biden spoke at the Academy Awards against rape on college campuses before this quote from the article is read:

"The political writer Howard Fineman has written: "Biden is not an academic, he's not a theoretical thinker, he's a great street pol. He comes from a long line of working people in Scranton—auto salesmen, car dealers, people who know how to make a sale. He has that great Irish gift." Starlighsky ( talk) 13:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not seeing how one balances the other. You would need something saying he is an Academic or some such. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

They don't balance each other. However, the quote does not accurately represent the character in the biography and sounds almost racist as well. There already refences in the article to his career as a professor, though. Starlighsky ( talk) 16:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

It definitely does not need an entire section and a block quote. It might be worth a sentence somewhere, but I'm not 100% sure on that. QuicoleJR ( talk) 15:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

@ Starlighsky and Slatersteven: I added a sentence to the part of the Vice Presidency section that talks about sexual violence. Is this a good compromise? QuicoleJR ( talk) 16:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

For me, no. It is still just a peice of trivia. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:19, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it is a very good compromise and helps for information in the future as well. Lady Gaga sang " Til it happens to you" and was accompanied on-stage by 50 people who had suffered from sexual assault. Starlighsky ( talk) 18:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Under Second Marriage, it says "Beau Biden became an Army judge advocate in Iraq and later Delaware attorney general"

He became a military lawyer in the United States, later serving in Iraq. By then, he was already elected the Delaware attorney general. This should read "Beau Biden was elected the Delaware Attorney General as well as serving as a lawyer in the Delaware Army National Guard."

Does Iraq need to be mentioned? If so, it can be tacked on the sentence I suggest. ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen ( talk) 14:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Why is this template not on this page? All other US president articles have respective "series" templates on their articles. ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter ( talk) 13:59, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

TBH, such 'series templates' should be deleted from all US office holders' bio pages. GoodDay ( talk) 14:29, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

TBH, I agree with this. I'll get round to doing that. -- ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter ( talk) 15:30, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

!!! Why no series templates?? They're so useful! YoPienso ( talk) 15:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I now think they have use and have added them back. -- ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter ( talk) 16:08, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Thread retitled from "Biden did not rank near the bottom of his class just because of his plagiarism". WP:TALKHEADPOV

This line about Biden's law school class ranking

He ranked 76th in a class of 85 students after failing a course because he plagiarized a law review article for a paper he wrote in his first year at law school

strongly implies that he ranked so low because he failed a single course due to plagiarism, but that is a coloring not supported by the source. His grades were otherwise poor, as the cited NYT source notes:

The file also included Mr. Biden's transcript from his days as an undergraduate at the University of Delaware. In his first three semesters, his grades were C's or D's, with three exceptions: two A's in physical education courses, a B in a course on Great English Writers and an F in R.O.T.C. The grades improved somewhat later but were never exceptional. Sysiphis ( talk) 15:51, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

His undergraduate years were at the University of Delaware, but he went to law school at Syracuse. His undergrad grades had no bearing on his law school rank, but I think you're conflating the two. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 15:58, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I mean to say that it is not supported by the source that this one failed course was the reason for his low rank. It seems to suggest he was simply a poor student in general. It also seems the F he got did not even contribute to his poor rank, as it was stricken:

The faculty ruled that Mr. Biden would get an F in the course but would have the grade stricken when he retook it the next year. Mr. Biden eventually received a grade of 80 in the course, which, he joked today, prevented him from falling even further in his class rank. Mr. Biden, who graduated from the law school in 1968, was 76th in a class of 85.

The two facts should be separated, like so:

"In his first year of law school he failed a course because he plagiarized a law review article for a paper he wrote, but the course was later stricken from his record and took the course again the next year, earning an 80. He graduated ranked 76th in a class of 85 students." Sysiphis ( talk) 16:40, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Ah I see. There's a little bit of OR/SYNTH going on there, indicating that the one paper is the reason his rank was that low, when he was probably just a mediocre student in general and that one paper is but one example of it. I imagine the plagiarism issue is played up in that sentence because of the plagiarism issue in his 1988 presidential campaign. I would actually think the one paper in law school is too unimportant to include, and we can simply remove it from the notation of where he ranked in the class. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 17:10, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

How about let's not remove it, as it was an actually important enough to be an issue in his first presidential campaign, and just fix the SYNTH. My previous example fixes it. Sysiphis ( talk) 22:18, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

In a general BLP, I don't see we need that level of detail about his college career. But the plagiarism issue is a thing in itself, and shouldn't be swept under the rug. And there it is, in the 1988 campaign subsection, which has 3 paragraphs about plagiarism, though the word itself it used only once. That subsection needs some work. YoPienso ( talk) 22:30, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The plagiarism of the speech is important enough to keep in the article, in the 1988 campaign section as YoPienso says. The plagiarism in a law school paper is not an issue with any WP:LASTING noteworthiness. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 22:34, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Here's a whole WaPo article about his plagiarism and falsehoods. The NY Times wrote that his school records "disclosed relatively poor grades in college and law school, mixed evaluations from teachers and details of the plagiarism." YoPienso ( talk) 22:37, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The New York Times wrote an article mentioning it very recently. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/22/us/politics/klain-kaufman-biden-campaign-election.html

It was Mr. Kaufman who was brutally direct with Mr. Biden when a plagiarism scandal threatened his first campaign for president in 1987. “There’s only one way to stop the sharks,” Mr. Kaufman told him at the time, “and that’s pull out.” Mr. Biden did.

It's a very consequential detail in his life. Definitely of lasting noteworthiness.

Based on YoPienso's comments, and that the section title contains "law school" and that someone's grades in law school are one of the very most noteworthy pieces of information concerning their time there, I am changing my suggested edit to:

In his first year of law school he failed a course because he plagiarized a law review article for a paper he wrote, however the course was later stricken. His grades were relatively poor, and he graduated ranked 76th in a class of 85 students. Sysiphis ( talk) 00:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Note some changes I suggest:

In his first year of law school Biden failed a course because he plagiarized a law review article; however, the F was stricken when he took the course again, earning a B. His college grades were average, and he graduated from law school ranked 76th in a class of 85 students. YoPienso ( talk) 01:17, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

It feels redundant to mention the grade he got for a failed course. Also, "relatively poor" grades are not "average". Respectfully, I stand by my suggested edit. Sysiphis ( talk) 01:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm wrong about the "average" grades. I thought I'd read in one of our sources a list of his grades, which averaged out to about a C. If I saw it, I couldn't find it again.

Please do make the following changes:

• semi-colon after wrote
• comma after however
• replace course with grade, failing grade, or F

YoPienso ( talk) 18:35, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Deal.

Could someone with extended edit permission please make the following edit:

Replace the line

He ranked 76th in a class of 85 students after failing a course because he plagiarized a law review article for a paper he wrote in his first year at law school.

with

In his first year of law school he failed a course because he plagiarized a law review article for a paper he wrote; however, the failing grade was later stricken. His grades were relatively poor, and he graduated ranked 76th in a class of 85 students.

It is all from the same NYT article, no need to change or add any sources.

Thank you, it would be much appreciated. Sysiphis ( talk) 20:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done I took the libery of removing the word "ranked" since it's understood with the ordinal number "76th." YoPienso ( talk) 21:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Sysiphis ( talk) 20:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

-Ashley Biden writes in her diary about taking showers with her dad (Joe Biden) probably not being appropriate.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ashley-biden-diary-claims/

-Ashley Biden’s diary is confirmed by her as real in a court of law.

https://www.axios.com/2024/06/17/biden-hunter-family-election-2024

-Many of Wikipedia’s own “reliable sources” have confirmed this story.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/26/ashley-biden-in-unsealed-letter-to-judge-detailed-pain-from-diary-theft.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68776262

Is there anything else that needs to be proven to add this to his page? WhowinsIwins ( talk) 00:00, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Three of your cites do not mention this. One does and quotes her as saying: "I will forever have to deal with the fact that my personal journal can be viewed online." Apparently you would like to add to this against her wishes. Anything else you would like to publish from her stolen, private diary? O3000, Ret. ( talk) 00:23, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

"Ashley Biden wrote in her letter to the Court that others had "once-grossly" misinterpreted her "once-private" writings and thrown "false accusations that defame my character and those of the people I love." [8]

Ashley Biden, the author of the diary, says these are false accusations that have been misinterpreted. The accusation of Biden showering with his daughter "probably not being appropriate" should not be included in the article as it is a fringe theory and to include it here would be WP:UNDUE. Marincyclist ( talk) 02:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I have to say that to this non-American, this seems as much a display of American prudery and puritanism as anything else. In many countries, there would not be an issue at all. If anything is included, the problem would need to be explained to those not automatically as shocked and horrified as we are apparently meant to be. HiLo48 ( talk) 00:21, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Under Second Marriage, it says "Beau Biden became an Army judge advocate in Iraq and later Delaware attorney general"

He became a military lawyer in the United States, later serving in Iraq. By then, he was already elected the Delaware attorney general. This should read "Beau Biden was elected the Delaware Attorney General as well as serving as a lawyer in the Delaware Army National Guard."

Does Iraq need to be mentioned? If so, it can be tacked on the sentence I suggest. ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen ( talk) 14:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

This needs to be done. It's a factually wrong sentence. It gets the timeline wrong (he was Delaware AG before deploying to Iraq) and makes it seem like he became an officer IN Iraq, which also isn't true. ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen ( talk) 10:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@ Slatersteven and other interested editors. Hunter Biden has now been convicted of a three felonies. I added a sentence under 'Second marriage' about this, after our existing sentence about Hunter Biden: Hunter Biden worked as a Washington lobbyist and investment adviser; his business dealings and personal life came under significant scrutiny during his father's presidency. While Hunter's conviction is obviously not a central detail about Joe Biden, I think it's still relevant enough to be included here. To put it another way, if we have one sentence on Hunter Biden, we can have two, and a person's son being convicted of a felony is no small matter, particularly when that person is the President and their son's problems have been a political issue during their presidency. Analogously, we mention Billy Carter's issues on Jimmy Carter's page. What are your thoughts on how we handle this? — Ganesha811 ( talk) 16:04, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

We already mentioned " business dealings and personal life came under significant scrutiny during his father's presidency" that is all we need to say. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Being the subject of scrutiny (largely from Joe Biden's political opposition) and being convicted of multiple felonies (by a federal jury) are very different things. If there's a way to work everything into one sentence, that would be fine, but I think the conviction is worth mentioning. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 16:09, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

We are not jamming an unrelated matter into this article, no. The gun conviction does not have a shred of relevance to Joe Biden. Zaathras ( talk) 21:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

If that's consensus, I don't mind, but in that case we should remove the prior sentence about Hunter Biden, or at least the part about his work as a lobbyist and investment advisor. That is even less relevant to Joe Biden. Details about Ashley Biden and Beau Biden earlier in the paragraph could also be removed. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 21:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Going on a snarky "just remove everything, then!" is not exactly a winning argument for you. The existence of notable siblings and children and other family members are what a reader generally would expect to find in a section about, well, family and relationships. What we don't do is dive into minutiae of them, especially salacious minutiae as that runs afoul of WP:COATRACK. Zaathras ( talk) 21:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to be snarky, I was being serious. I don't mind if our policy for that section is "mention his children only insofar as they exist, and link to their pages", but then we should be consistent. If our policy is "mention his children + any details about them that are relevant to Joe Biden and his presidency", then my opinion is that Hunter's conviction is a relevant detail. Currently, our policy is "mention his children + some basic biographical details about them that are not really relevant to Joe, except in the case of Hunter where we add a phrase about scrutiny during Joe's presidency." That's not very clear. The federal government has convicted the President's son of multiple felonies while that President was running the federal government. This is not minutiae, nor is it particularly salacious. I'm sympathetic to the WP:COATRACK argument, though; in which case the first policy I mentioned might be most appropriate. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 22:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

... shouldn't that go in his own article? Hunter Biden is not involved in this presidency at all. Trillfendi ( talk) 21:45, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

He's not involved in Joe Biden's White House, but he is relevant to Joe Biden's presidency, as a line of controversy and attention which Biden's political opponents have dedicated considerable attention to. Of course, we're not here to reward partisan grandstanding, but given that Hunter has been convicted of 3 federal crimes while Biden heads the federal government. Of course, he's also relevant on Joe Biden's page simply as Joe Biden's son - this article is about the person, not the presidency. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 22:27, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

This is Joe Biden's article, not Hunter's. Joe had absolutely nothing to do with Hunter's crimes. What should appear in this article is any specific action from or statement made by Joe about Hunter and his crimes. Nothing more. HiLo48 ( talk) 23:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Evidently consensus is running the other way here. Ah well, thanks all for the discussion. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 23:45, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Saying that Hunter Biden's personal life came under scrutiny without saying what the outcome was is like saying Joe Biden's election was close without saying who won. Put it in but limit it to one sentence.

Note also that the editors who most closely watch this article do not necessarily reflect the broader community in what they consider relevant. TFD ( talk) 00:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I think we should include the mention of Hunter's conviction. The WaPo has an article, " Hunter Biden guilty verdict could take personal toll on president."

Excerpts:

• "Hunter Biden’s guilty verdict Tuesday, coupled with a trial that resurfaced dark moments in the Biden family history, could weigh heavily on the president in the final months of a grueling reelection campaign, many of the president’s allies privately worry."
• "The political impact is less clear. . ."
• "But the personal toll on a president who has already suffered the deaths of two children and grappled for years with his son’s addiction could be far more severe." YoPienso ( talk) 02:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

  That sounds like a minor detail which doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article. TopSecretRavenclaw ( talk) 03:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  If your son was convicted of a crime, would that be a minor detail in your life? Maybe if you were also a criminal, but not if you're an upstanding citizen, and specially not if you're the POTUS. YoPienso ( talk) 13:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

All those WaPO quotes are speculative. Note the use of the word "could". We won't write "could" in our article. HiLo48 ( talk) 03:20, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The point is, a major RS is commenting on the possible impacts of Hunter's conviction on the POTUS. It doesn't matter if it's speculation; it shows Hunter's trial and outcome are relevant to his father. See Ganesha811's comment made at 22:27, 11 June 2024.

Also note how s/he dropped the issue for lack of consensus. I'm saying if more editors commented, there might be a consensus. It may be best to wait a few days to see how this impacts Pres. Biden. After all, WP:NOTNEWS. That doesn't mean we should dismiss out of hand inclusion of the event in the very near future. YoPienso ( talk) 04:00, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

No it shows it might, and we do not engage in predictions. If it has an effect we can say it, in the article about the election or his presidency, not in an article about him (the man). Slatersteven ( talk) 11:18, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

This is not our prediction, but predictions reported in reliable sources. That there will be a presidential election in 2024 is also a prediction, but is included in this article because of weight. TFD ( talk) 11:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

No, that is because it will happen bar very very unforeseen circumstances, its not pure speculation, this is. Slatersteven ( talk) 11:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's not pure speculation since it's based on conversations he's had with people who chose not to give their names. It's not like a columnist is pondering the situation and imagining how Biden may be feeling. It's fine--probably best--to wait for hard, reliably sourced facts, but let's be clear in our discussion. YoPienso ( talk) 18:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Don't think an encyclopedia should include anything about how some unnamed people think someone else is feeling. Also don't like anything WP:CRYSTALBALL related. Also think mention in this article should at least wait for sentencing. There is a difference between 20 years in prison vs. community service or probation. Of course the Hunter Biden article can include more detail. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 18:22, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTALBALL says, "Wikipedia does not predict the future." Reporting informed sources' predictions of the future, whether there will an election in November or Hunter Biden's conviction will affect that election is not a prediction by Wikipedia. Guidelines and policies are not incantations to be chanted when we disagree with an edit. Their relevance should be explained. TFD ( talk) 03:26, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

There's a lot of words here now, but nobody has yet convinced me that a story about a person who is not the subject of this article should appear in this article. HiLo48 ( talk) 02:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

What about just something short like his business dealings, personal life, and subsequent legal issues came under significant scrutiny during his father's presidency? I don't know if we really need to tell the story on this article. Also, the conviction on the firearms charge is not the only legal issue he's facing, he still yet may be convicted on some pretty significant tax charges (including felony charges) as well. Endwise ( talk) 04:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

But this is Joe's article, and none of that is about Joe. Your final sentence is pure speculation, and again, not about Joe. HiLo48 ( talk) 04:27, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not speculation that he is also facing felony tax charges, his trial is in a few months. And this article has multiple paragraphs of material about Joe's family members (which is not unusual for a biography), including already mentioning Hunter's personal life -- I'm suggesting adding two or three words. Endwise ( talk) 05:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Joe is not facing felony tax charges. HiLo48 ( talk) 04:53, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

This thread has morphed from whether or not we should say, "In 2024, Hunter was convicted of three felonies in a federal trial on charges related to his 2018 purchase of a gun purchase [sic] while he was addicted to drugs" to whether we should insert "and subsequent legal issues" into the existing sentence, "Hunter Biden worked as a Washington lobbyist and investment adviser; his business dealings and personal life came under significant scrutiny during his father's presidency." I should hope we can all agree to include the latter, since it's factual, well-sourced, and relevant to Joe Biden; it's relevance is also well-documented in the MSM. At this point, I think we should hold off on the felony convictions because, even if later they become highly relevant to this BLP, they are too recent to include in Joe's now. (Clearly, they should be--and are--included in Hunter's BLP.) YoPienso ( talk) 22:14, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I think this seems like a reasonable compromise - it's four words that makes this article more accurate, in an already-existing sentence. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 04:15, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Of course. Everything about Hunter should be recorded in Hunter's bio. But Joe had nothing to do with any of the bad things Hunter did. HiLo48 ( talk) 05:35, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not Joe Biden *caused* the bad things Hunter has done, a brief and summarized mention of those travails is still relevant to this page, both because of their impact on Joe Biden's presidency and because Hunter Biden is Joe's son and we have exceedingly brief biographical summaries of all of his children already on the page, by longstanding consensus. I support the compromise discussed by YoPienso and Endwise above. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 12:35, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The problem is in gaining agreement on precisely what the impact of Hunter's actions on Joe's presidency is. Some will say it's close to zero, whereas the Republican Party will tell you it makes Joe completely unsuited to be president. A common cliche today in the campaigning against Joe is the expression "the Biden crime family". Do WE say that? HiLo48 ( talk) 00:45, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Until or unless James and/or Joe Biden are convicted of a crime, no, we do not say that. YoPienso ( talk) 15:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Do we mention presidential children's legal probs in bios of other US presidents? GoodDay ( talk) 02:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Hunter is the first child of a POTUS to be convicted of a crime, but no, we don't mention the numerous arrests in modern times of presidents' children. We don't mention Alice Roosevelt's shenanigans (more social than legal) in Teddy's bio. There seems to be no precedent or consensus to mention Hunter's conviction in his father's BLP. Later, we may include it in Presidency of Joe Biden, but it's too recent now.

I would support editing "Hunter Biden worked as a Washington lobbyist and investment adviser; his business dealings and personal life came under significant scrutiny during his father's presidency." We could go with either "Hunter Biden worked as a Washington lobbyist and investment adviser; his business dealings, personal life, and subsequent legal issues came under significant scrutiny during his father's presidency" or "Hunter Biden worked as a Washington lobbyist and investment adviser; his business dealings and legal issues came under significant scrutiny during his father's presidency." YoPienso ( talk) 15:33, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I think there's enough support for one of those options that you should add it - wording can be subsequently tweaked. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 16:06, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

If we are honest, the issue is not that Hunter's affairs came under significant scrutiny. It is that Joe's political opponents are trying to use Hunter's affairs to cause political damage to Joe. HiLo48 ( talk) 05:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Classic WP:SYN. YoPienso ( talk) 18:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

DO you deny my observation? surely it's also WP:SYN to say "Hunter's affairs came under significant scrutiny." HiLo48 ( talk) 04:04, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your observation, but I don't have an RS for it. On Dec. 10, 2020, PBS asked that question, and sort of answered it. One commentator suggested "the Justice Department would be loathe, especially after 2016 and everything that happened with Hillary Clinton and the investigation into her e-mail server, to take any step that would have spilled out into the open and actually impacted the election." Later, she said, "But in terms of politicization, he's such an easy target for Joe Biden's foes and his political foes because he has had so many problems. He's — it's kind of open season on Hunter Biden." But in the next breath she pointed out that Jeff Sessions, not Bill Barr, started the investigation. If you can find an RS that doesn't try to have it both ways, I would support your adding that point to Presidency of Joe Biden and/or United States House Oversight Committee investigation into the Biden family.

It's not WP:SYN to say "Hunter's affairs came under significant scrutiny." This is what the NYT ref after that sentence says: "The life of President Biden’s son Hunter Biden has come under intense scrutiny amid investigations by House Republicans and gun charges filed by federal prosecutors." ABC News also has an article titled "Timeline: Hunter Biden under legal, political scrutiny." YoPienso ( talk) 22:14, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

The storyline if the July 3rd article cited here has been denied by the white house and his campaign. Not sure why it is represented so authoritatively.

"Biden said on July 3 that he was considering whether or not to continue his campaign, dependent on if he could convince the public of his capability to well serve the country if he wins the election."

There are numerous reliable source reporting that the NYT story is not accurate. The above sentenfe should be changed to "An anonymous source to the New York Times suggested Biden was considering..."

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/biden-trump-election-07-03-24#h_d055ce145a365d3b9625e9a97c495e5c

https://www.axios.com/2024/07/03/biden-trump-nyt-poll-debate-election-2024

Helpingtoclarify ( talk) 20:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Removed. The user that added it has misrepresented hearsay as fact. Zaathras ( talk) 21:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Biden and his spokespeople denied the report, but that doesn't make it "hearsay" or automatically mean it is false. In retrospect I perhaps could have used less authoritative wording but at the time both the NYT and CNN were reporting what this anonymous source was saying as the truth, and both still are to some degree. I'm not suggesting to re-add the content, but just because Biden denied it doesn't mean it's "hearsay" either. Flemmish Nietzsche ( talk) 21:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Biden's later affirmation that he's staying in the race demonstrates my point that many are editing these articles without being cautious regarding WP:NOTNEWS / WP:RECENTISM issues. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 21:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense. Who has made such edits, and what "articles" (more than one) are you referring to? Has anyone made edits to this, or any article, that Biden is stepping down, or has made any other such conclusions?  No. All that was said is that Biden was "considering whether or not to continue his campaign". WP is not a newspaper, but significant events, often cited by news sources, are routinely added to BLP's and other articles. As for clinging to the idea of "recentism", good luck with that. Biden made history, no matter what the ultimate outcome may turn out to be, and many world leaders, as well as US politicians on both sides of the fence, are now questioning Biden's capacity to act, esp at this unstable time in the nation's, not to mention the world's, history.-- Gwillhickers ( talk) 22:44, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The reports of Biden considering dropping out appear to be incorrect and you don't see a problem with editors rushing to include said incorrect story. Gotcha. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 00:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Not exactly. You are correct that we can't rush into an account of the debate and its aftermath, and the NYT news clip must have been released before the Dem's made it official that Biden wasn't dropping out, so it indeed needed to be removed from the article. Having said that, the debate, and all its implications is still a very noteworthy event, with, once again, many of Biden's own party questioning his ability to run the country competently -- for another four years. Again, many world leaders were concerned, and I'm sure Hamas, Iran, China and the Soviet Union are quite amused to have such a floundering president sitting in the White House. These concerns, RS's permitting, need to be covered in an objective manner. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 17:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Actually, most Dems who have commented negatively have said they're worried about Trump winning, not Biden being unable to run the country. And your odd comment: I'm sure Hamas, Iran, China and the Soviet Union are quite amused to have such a floundering president sitting in the White House is not helpful. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 21:36, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, in light of Biden's performance I'm sure worries about Trump were at a peak. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 00:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't even understand your point. First debates by Raegan, Bush, and Obama were disasters. Look, I think he should drop out. But statements like I'm sure Hamas, Iran, China and the Soviet Union are quite amused to have such a floundering president sitting in the White House are out of line here, besides be quite incorrect. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 00:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

This was not Biden's first debate with Trump, and I've never seen Reagan, Obama, etc do anything that even came close to Biden's performance, and their administrations were not entertaining the idea that they should step down. During the debate Trump emphasized ....but throughout the entire world, we’re no longer respected as a country. They don’t respect our leadership. They don’t respect the United States anymore. It would seem, in light of current and very unstable events, that Hamas and countries like Iran, China and Russia are considerations that can't be swept under the rug. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 00:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

We are supposed to rely on Trump's statements? . Trump is supported by autocrats because he keeps praising autocrats, Kim Jong Un, Putin, Erdoğan, Xi Jinping, Viktor Orban and told Putin he can do what he wants with Ukraine. Indeed, he called Putin's invasion of Ukraine as “genius” and “savvy”. Trump was NOT and is NOT respected by our allies. But my last word -- respond as you like. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 01:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

We're supposed to rely on Biden's statements?  The rest of that ramble about "autocrats", praise for Putin, etc, is blatant partisan OR, in its outer most orbit. Pass. We rely on reliable news sources. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 16:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Thread retitled from "Media cover up of Biden's mental state". WP:TALKHEADPOV O3000, Ret. ( talk) 01:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Before the recent debate, every mainstream news source had been repeatedly saying for years that Biden's mental health was fine, and that any claims to the contrary were "right wing conspiracy theories," "fake news," of "cheap fakes."

However, after the debate, every one of these mainstream news sources admitted that there was indeed something wrong with Biden's mental condition.

This article needs to address why the media lied and covered up Biden's mental state.

Beaver's Library Book ( talk) 21:36, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you have something you wish to add to the article? Otherwise, this would be construed as trolling. Zaathras ( talk) 21:38, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Unsubtle NPOV trolling HiLo48 ( talk) 00:19, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I just posted a bunch of sources below. Beaver's Library Book ( talk) 16:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I just posted a long list of sources. Beaver's Library Book ( talk) 16:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

We have been very careful to not include the opinions of psychiatrists about Trump's mental health. We haven't even seen anything like that related to Biden. Which is to say we have more protective of Trump than Biden. Your accusation that the media "lied" about this is just silly. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 00:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I just posted a long list of sources. Beaver's Library Book ( talk) 16:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• Biden's mental capacity has been called into attention, once again, throughout the world, after the debate. This doubt, from other world leaders and news sources, and even among Democrats, hovering over a sitting president, a world leader, and a presidential candidate no less, is a serious affair and needs to be covered. Trying to censure this, and the attempt to scare editors away with threats of "trolling", can be considered a form of trolling itself and will very likely bring an NPOV tag to the article, with an RfC to follow.. It would be best to resolve this honestly from the beginning. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:23, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Gwillhickers Beaver's Library Book ( talk) 16:51, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• Beaver's Library Book. — Actually the media is doing a fair job, at least at this point, in exploring Biden's mental state and his capacity to act as a president, now, and prospectively for another four years. The media shouldn't be the issue, but rather the idea of covering this advent in neutral terms here in the Biden article. At this point, the news and other sources touching on this affair are overwhelming. No one can say what the ultimate outcome will be with any certainty, but the doubt and loss of faith over Biden's abilities is impossible to deny at this point. At least we can cover that. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course they are doing a good job after the debate, because it's now too big to cover up. My criticism is about what they did before the debate. I have posted a bunch of sources below. Beaver's Library Book ( talk) 16:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

We cannot take video clips and use those as sources for any claims about Biden's mental state per no original research. We can use some other sources to say people are concerned, but honestly would be better suited for the articles about his campaign and presidency. We certainly cannot say there's a "cover up" without multiple strong reliable sources saying that exact phrase. It's hard to see how there could even be a cover up given the extensive coverage of the issue over the past 4 years. EvergreenFir (talk) 16:59, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Beaver's Library Book (BLB) has provided a long list of RSs that do allege a media cover-up of Biden's frailty. YoPienso ( talk) 17:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The official line in rs before the debate was to relegate any public criticism of Biden's mental acuity to partisan conspiracism. Based on his performance in the debate, rs raised questions about it and quoted anonymous sources that said it was apparent to insiders before the debate.

Note there is no concession in rs that the earlier speculation in right-wing media had any basis in reality. No reasonable observer could have questioned Biden's acuity until they saw his debate performance.

Therefore, the media did not cover up and has merely been reporting the facts that are available. TFD ( talk) 19:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

So you're saying it was the White House, not the media, that was hiding Biden's weaknesses? YoPienso ( talk) 22:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

They certainly did for Reagan EvergreenFir (talk) 23:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

RS don't say that the White House hid it, merely that some staffers had concerns based on private observations. I am not saying that is my view, just that is how it has been reported. TFD ( talk) 01:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Please read Brian Stelter's take on that in the Vox article JDiala shared, especially starting with the section "The White House waged war on age reporting." Yet Stelter also blames the media, not for conspiring, but for failing to probe and for lacking courage.

Also, JDiala's link to a CNN report, "President Joe Biden’s White House repeatedly and aggressively shot down reports on the president’s age and any possible limitations on his ability to perform all the duties of his office." YoPienso ( talk) 05:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Stelter's article is not rs per Wikipedia:Newsorg. Your quote from CNN merely says that WH officials rejected reports on the president's infirmity, not that they knowingly mislead the public. It too probably also fails rs as news analysis. TFD ( talk) 15:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:RSPSS, Vox is considered generally reliable. I don't understand what you want me to find at WP:NEWSORG that would disqualify it. YoPienso ( talk) 00:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

"News organizations" says, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact."

The claims you want to include are based on analysis by a non-expert, hence unreliable. TFD ( talk) 02:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Stelter quotes a multitude of articles from stalwart RSs, as well as quoting or paraphasing many reporters and observers. This isn't an opinion article. It is analysis, and it is reliable for the views and facts reported by the MSM.

Check out the links here in this excerpt from Stelter's lead:

The national media wasn’t dodging the story: The biggest newspapers in the country published lengthy stories about Biden’s mental fitness. The public wasn’t in the dark about Biden’s age: Most voters (67 percent in a June Gallup poll) thought he was too old to be president even before the debate. But questions about Biden’s fitness for office were not emphasized as much as they should have been.

Stelter's sources:

WaPo, NYT, WSJ, CNN

Gallup Poll

"Top reporters on the White House beat"

"Key members of Biden’s party"

Ted Cruz

Charlotte Alter, senior correspondent for Time magazine

Jack Shafer (Politico)

The New York Times’s chief White House correspondent Peter Baker

Chris Cillizza (CNN)

S. Jay Olshansky, a longevity specialist at the University of Illinois Chicago

The Atlantic’s Mark Leibovich

Ezra Klein and Astead Herndon

Special counsel Robert K. Hur

MSNBC host Joe Scarborough and Biden biographer Evan Osnos, on record as saying Biden was fine

Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham, for their misleading anti-Biden video clips and commentary

I don't know how you define "expert," but Brian Stelter, despite his aggressive delivery which personally annoys me, has considerable expertise covering politics and the media. He's identified at the top of the article with Brian Stelter is the author of three books about the media industry, a former media reporter at the New York Times, and a former anchor of CNN’s Reliable Sources.

I say the Vox article is a RS for this BLP. YoPienso ( talk) 12:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

New York Times, June 24, 2024: "How Misleading Videos Are Trailing Biden as He Battles Age Doubts"

https://web.archive.org/web/20240621184604/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/21/us/politics/biden-age-videos.html

New York Times, July 2, 2024: "Biden’s Lapses Are Increasingly Common, According to Some of Those in the Room"

https://web.archive.org/web/20240702191943/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/02/us/politics/biden-lapses.html

CNN, July 2, 2024: "Biden’s mental fitness could have been better covered leading up to the debate, some White House reporters acknowledge"

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/02/media/biden-mental-fitness

Vox July 3, 2024: "Did the media botch the Biden age story? Asleep at the wheel? Complicit in a cover-up? The real story is far more complicated — and more interesting."

https://www.vox.com/politics/358877/biden-age-debate-media-coverage

The Hill, July 3, 2024: "On Biden’s debate, Democrats have no one to blame but themselves... They did what they did — they lied, they concealed the truth and they rigged their own party’s electoral process — to protect President Biden."

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4751775-biden-mental-decline-democrats-trap/

USA Today, June 30, 2024: "Democrats gaslighted Americans about Biden's cognitive decline. The debate exposed the truth."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2024/06/30/biden-debate-step-aside-mental-fitness-president/74232482007/

Boston Herald, June 29, 2024: "Democrats... have been telling you endlessly, for years, that... Biden was fit as a fiddle, sharp as a tack and absolutely at the top of his game... Of course, if you’ve been reading this newspaper, or listening to my radio show, you’ve known about Biden’s senility for years."

https://www.bostonherald.com/2024/06/29/howie-carr-the-truth-about-biden-comes-out-yet-again/

Magnolia Tribune, July 1, 2024: "They lied: mainstream media covered for Biden until they could cover no more"

https://magnoliatribune.com/2024/07/01/they-lied/

Wall St. Journal, June 28, 2024: "The World Saw Biden Deteriorating. Democrats Ignored the Warnings."

https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/biden-age-concerns-world-leaders-democrats-6d753921

Wall St. Journal, July 3, 2024: "Biden’s Frailty Isn’t Breaking News. It took Washington’s news hounds 4½ years to discover his obvious deterioration."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-frailty-isnt-breaking-news-media-journalism-2024-presidential-election-4db38931

MSNBC's Joe Scarborough's said there was nothing wrong with Biden's health, March 2024:

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1806652543084220731

On July 1, 2024, Elon Musk retweeted a 6 minute video compilation of many mainstream news sources (from before the debate) claiming there was nothing wrong with Biden's mental health

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1807757765655625890

Beaver's Library Book ( talk) 16:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Funny, the very first source is an article about how right-wing media is faking videos to make it look like Biden is losing it. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 21:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

And a lot of the other sources are opinion pieces from right-wingers. Maybe there was a conspiracy to hide Biden's condition, but it does not belong in the article unless rs comment on it and it has substantial coverage. TFD ( talk) 01:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, specifically, the opinion pieces are from The Hill, USA Today, Boston Herald, and the not-notable Magnolia Tribune. Still, the first three show that RSs are voicing such opinions. Scarborough and Musk were obviously giving their personal opinions, and are widely regarded as off-kilter.

The NYT article O3000, Ret. referred to doesn't belong on the list because it doesn't support BLB's claim, and because it came out before the debate.

I don't have a subscription to WSJ so can't comment on those articles.

That leaves these RSs (and possibly one or more from the WSJ) that show Biden's lack of fitness wasn't accurately reported, due both to White House attempts to hide the facts and the media's reluctance to pursue the facts:

New York Times, July 2, 2024: "Biden’s Lapses Are Increasingly Common, According to Some of Those in the Room"

CNN, July 2, 2024: "Biden’s mental fitness could have been better covered leading up to the debate, some White House reporters acknowledge"

Vox July 3, 2024: "Did the media botch the Biden age story? Asleep at the wheel? Complicit in a cover-up? The real story is far more complicated — and more interesting"

The Hill, July 3, 2024: "On Biden’s debate, Democrats have no one to blame but themselves... They did what they did — they lied, they concealed the truth and they rigged their own party’s electoral process — to protect President Biden." Stricken because this is an opinion piece I had not intended to include. YoPienso ( talk) 00:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, the fact that BLB was found to be a sock and subsequently blocked is irrelevant to the usefulness of the sources he provided. YoPienso ( talk) 06:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Your brief, selective quotes do not represent the gist of these articles. The first source does not indicate media cover up at all. You didn't include that it also mentioned Trump's confusion and incoherence despite a lighter schedule. Do we somehow assume that means there was a media coverup of Trump's mental state? The second does say that the WH press corp wonder if they could have done a better job. It is good that the media reviews itself in this manner. It does not indicate a media coverup. Neither does the third source. The fourth is an opinion columnist. Realize that we would need actual evidence of a coverup implicating multiple mainstream media, a rather unlikely scenario considering competition among the media for "breaking news". O3000, Ret. ( talk) 13:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a condensation of BLB's list; all I did was omit some sources and tuck the URLs into blue links. What you interpreted as quotes are titles. BLB did add quotes after the title of the Hill article.

• The NYT, July 2, includes the line, "But the White House may only be showing the Biden they want us to see." This, if not a cover-up conspiracy, is dissembling. Trump's mental state isn't part of this article or this talk page.
• CNN's article suggests the MSM "under-reported the story of Biden’s age and decline." We apparently agree that this is a RS about the American public not being apprised by the MSM about Biden's frailty.
• The Vox piece does report that many journalists viewed the White House as not particularly transparent, and even gaslighting and bullying when the media probed into Biden's health.
• My inclusion of The Hill was an error; please note I had already rejected it in my very first line since it's an opinion piece. I've stricken it.

My own view is that the White House carefully presented Biden at his best and avoided putting him in situations that would reveal his actual mental and physical decline. I conclude there was a concerted effort to keep us from knowing the truth. The press didn't do their job, but I don't call that a cover-up, per se. We do need to realize that during an election year, between the efforts of the White House and the timidity of the MSM, Biden's condition was deceptively hidden. It wasn't the media, but Robert Hur, who first was bold enough to say the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

So I'm not suggesting we say there was a cover-up, but we do need to be clear-eyed and realize that we weren't getting the full story. We have to be sure our own writing doesn't deny the facts, but tells them as the RSs do, without bias. YoPienso ( talk) 00:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

In conclusion, it seems we can fairly say the White House was not forthcoming about Biden's mental and physical decline. We shouldn't use the word "cover-up," and it doesn't seem we can allege any cover-up by the media.

• Checkuser blocked; this is a confirmed Grundle2600 sock. --jpgordon ^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 21:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

This article only mentions illegal immigration once, and only inasmuch as to say Biden has offered amnesty to unauthorized immigrants married to American citizens. There is no mention of the many millions of illegal immigrants, (estimates vary...up to 10 million) many of them on the terrorist watch list, drug traffickers and involved in human trafficking. When Biden assumed office he closed down some ten check points along the Texas-Mexico border. Biden finally signed an executive order in an attempt to clamp down on illegal immigration, but the order is a day late and a dollar short and appears to be a last ditch effort by the Biden administration to save face before the election, and is full of loopholes and next to impossible to enforce, which is why the Republicans didn't sign it. None of this is even mentioned, or covered in a brief summary fashion.

US Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Enforcement Statistics, Key Facts:

• Since President Biden and Secretary Mayorkas took office, there have been more than 9.5 million encounters nationwide ^[1] and more than 7.8 million encounters at the Southwest border. ^[2]
• U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) recorded 247,837 encounters nationwide in April, including 179,725 at the Southwest border (SWB). SWB encounters increased 5% compared to April of Fiscal Year (FY) 2021. Additionally, nearly 2 million known gotaways have evaded U.S. Border Patrol under this administration. ^[3]
• Since January 2023, 591,000 individuals have scheduled appointments with the app. ^[4]
• Since the program began, 434,800 Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, and Venezuelans have been mass paroled under the administration’s CHNV parole program. ^[5]
• Since FY21, 362 aliens on the terrorist watchlist have been caught crossing our Southwest border illegally.
• Encounters at the northern border in April of FY24 increased 1,240% compared to April of FY21. ^[6]

-- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I see the key words there as "estimates vary. HiLo48 ( talk) 23:48, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what your reply is supposed to amount to, but according to the US Customs and Border Protection, the key words are "...more than 9.5 million encounters nationwide and more than 7.8 million encounters at the Southwest border.". -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 00:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

many of them on the terrorist watch list, drug traffickers and involved in human trafficking When you misrepresent the topic and present Trump 2024 campaign talking points as fact, don't be surprised when other editors decline to engage you seriously. If an IP user said what you said above, it would have likely been deleted it as trolling. Zaathras ( talk) 14:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Quite. Why I didn't bother responding in addition to the WP:OR, conclusions, speculation, and silly insult. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 14:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

So we should say under Biden record numbers of illegals are being apprehended? Slatersteven ( talk) 14:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

We can say record numbers have crossed both the US northern border, and esp on the US southern border, with many apprehended, including many on the terrorist watch list. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 17:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

THose sources seem to be talking about people being stopped, that means they...were stopped. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Stopped or apprehended, record numbers have crossed. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 17:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

It lacks weight in rs for major coverage. That's probably because despite MAGA rhetoric, there was little difference between Biden and his predecessors, including Trump, in this regard. Twenty five years ago, CNN ran a two hour show about illegal immigration every night. It's not a new topic. TFD ( talk) 14:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

And were stopped, which I would argue is the important point. It does not matter how many people try, its if they succeed that matters. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be suggesting that most individuals were stopped and sent back. At the end of 2022 there have been 11 million people who have crossed with only 2,063,692 apprehensions. Please read Office of Homeland Security Statistics.and USA FACTS -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Correct. Illegal immigration is not a new problem, but one which has reached alarming proportions under Biden who began closing down check points as soon as he assumed office, and stopped funding for the border wall. ^{[1] [2] [3] [4]} Illegal immigration and all the cover it provides for terrorists, ^{[5] [6]} drug trafficking, human trafficking, etc, is a major issue hanging over Biden's head, which his administration and his supporters try to blow off.(i.e."lacks weight") ^{[7] [8] [9]} For basic numbers we have the US Customs and Border Protection agency: ^[10] For the associated issues with this major problem there are plenty of others. The fact remains, illegal immigration is only mentioned once in this article, and only in reference to amnesty. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 17:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

You're implying that before Biden, illegals used to turn up at and be apprehended at checkpoints that Biden later closed. That's ridiculous. HiLo48 ( talk) 23:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The check points were certainly no guarantee to stop all crossings, but your suggestion that they did nothing is what seems ridiculous, as well as your implication that a wall is not needed...the same wall Biden, to his credit, is now trying to expand in Texas, finally. But this also is coming at a very late date. His position on the wall when he first assumed office, was that it was "Trump's wall" and was not needed. ^[1] When asked if he thought resumption of building the wall in Texas was going to help, "he said flatly, “no.”, ^[2] which more than suggests he's merely putting on appearances in the face of all the evidence, and resultant issues, surrounding the hoards of illegals that have been crossing the border under his watch In any case, it seems as if there is no desire to cover illegal immigration under Biden whatsoever. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 00:03, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Why would someone trying to illegally enter a country go via a checkpoint? HiLo48 ( talk) 00:12, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

According to our laws we are supposed to allow refugees to apply at the border and enter while refugee status is determined. Since we stopped (violating our own laws), they generally cross nearby and then sit and wait to be arrested in the hope that they can then have their cases adjudicated by a court of law. So much for:

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Just a silly suggestion -- maybe we should stop the defunding of imigration judges, as planned in a doomed bill. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 00:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Objective3000 — Re: your apparent mocking of the saying, "Give me your tired, your poor,...", any good idea can be taken to the point of absurdity, and tired and poor doesn't include terrorists, drug traffickers, etc. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 00:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh my. I mocked it? You have repeatedly provided your own OR, conclusions based on primary sources. You have been here long enough to understand that we use reliable secondary sources. Particlularly on a contentiouis topic. And repeatedly talking about millions and then saying terrorists, drug traffickers is beginning to sound.... O3000, Ret. ( talk) 00:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

All my points are backed by reliable news sources, and a couple of primary sources, which are allowed so long as one doesn't try to spin off some sort of absurd conclusion, which I have not, let alone "repeatedly", thank you. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 00:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

HiLo48 — Stopping at a check point didn't mean entry into the country was legal. Checkpoints were positioned on roadways and were meant to deter illegal immigration, they didn't span the remote countryside.. Closing of the checkpoints is just one aspect of Biden's position on illegal immigration in general. In any case, you seem to be avoiding all the other points. Still no thoughts from you, or anyone thus far, about better covering the problem illegal immigration under Biden. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 00:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh, my. Everybody knows illegal immigration at the southern border greatly increased under Biden. Here's a WaPo article about it; just scroll down to the graph. Immediately under the graph is this: "Illegal border crossings soared in the months after Biden took office and immediately rolled back many Trump-era restrictions."

We can't edit properly if we're going to make politically biased arguments against the plain facts. YoPienso ( talk) 00:43, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

There was a bill to increase border security. But, it would have interfered with a political narrative. As one of Trump's advisors said yesterday: "Chaos is our friend." O3000, Ret. ( talk) 00:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

• This is all such a trivial problem for a president if he/she just ignores the laws and morality. As one ex-president said, why don't we just shoot them in the leg. But, we are (used to be) a nation of laws. Let us not look at raw stats and draw our own simplistic conclusions as if we know how to deal with the world's intractable problems. There is way too much OR in this section. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 01:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Blur... There is no OR other than your inference that out of control illegal immigration is some "trivial problem". Biden finally decided to resume construction of the wall in Texas. In spite of the fact that his effort amounts to very little, too late, at least he's beginning to see that the overall situation has become more than some "trivial problem". The "laws of morality", it would seem, would include the protection of the citizens in which you preside over. So are you suggesting that there is no need for the article here to cover the situation surrounding illegal immigration under Biden? Rhetorical. It seems you've already answered that for us rather plainly. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 01:29, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Rhetorical. It seems you've already answered that for us rather plainly.. You need to stop this. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 01:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The second paragraph in the Other domestic policy issues subsection deals with the southern border. I suggest a slight expansion of "This occurred after both allies and critics of Biden criticized his administration's management of the southern border." We should include the unprecented rise in illegal entries and the public's response to it. I'm saying maybe one more sentence. YoPienso ( talk) 13:16, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying the destabilization of the Venezuelan government has nothing to do with this? We do not draw conclusions here. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 13:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying anything about the destabilization of the Venezuelan government. Why are you mentioning it? It sure sounds like you're trying to find a reason to keep the immigration problem out of Joe Biden's BLP. That's not okay. The immigration problem has been huge. You do know that, right? You do remember the consternation in the border states and the busloads and planeloads of some 100,000 new, undocumented immigrants sent to Martha's Vineyard, NYC, and Chicago. Yes? Did you look at the graph (not "raw statistics") in the WaPo article I linked to?

In fact, I came here to suggest a stronger mention of immigration problems under Biden and found your off-topic retort. This happened during Biden's presidency. For the purposes of this BLP, it doesn't matter why. I'm now suggesting we move the paragraph about immigration that's currently in the subsection Other domestic policy issues up just above it into a new subsection, Immigration, (or Southern border) and expand it slightly, not more than double the current text. YoPienso ( talk) 14:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

It sure sounds like you're trying to find a reason to keep the immigration problem out of Joe Biden's BLP I'm getting damned tired of WP:AGF violations in this thread. This is not constructive collaboration. Martha's Vineyard, NYC, and Chicago Yes I remember well these disgusting acts by governors who used human beings as political tools. Florida flying humans into Florida to then fly them elsewhere to make political points by claiming they "invaded" Florida. Did you look at the graph (not "raw statistics") in the WaPo article I linked to? Again. we do not do WP:OR here. I'm not saying anything about the destabilization of the Venezuelan government. Why are you mentioning it? You made an OR conclusion. I gave one of many other possible reasons. This is why we don't do OR here. Look, immigration is a worldwide problem. Is it all Biden's fault? O3000, Ret. ( talk) 14:57, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not bad faith, but acknowledging the obvious that you're defending Biden. It's a widely-known, impeccably sourced FACT that during Biden's administration there's been a significant immigration problem.

Your response about sending migrants to sanctuary cities reveals your bias and nothing more.

Looking at a graph in the WaPo is not OR.

I'm not saying our immigration problem is Biden's fault. I'm saying it exists. YoPienso ( talk) 15:29, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Your response about sending migrants to sanctuary cities reveals your bias and nothing more. Yet another WP:AGF violation. This is pointless as you just keep attacking editors and pointing to raw stats along with your own conclusions. And bolding text does not improve an argument. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 15:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I included the amnesty program about a week ago, but before then, there was also content in his 100 days section about illegal immigration.

Also in March, amid a rise in migrants entering the U.S. from Mexico, Biden told migrants, "Don't come over." In the meantime, migrant adults "are being sent back", Biden said, in reference to the continuation of the Trump administration's Title 42 policy for quick deportations. Biden earlier announced that his administration would not deport unaccompanied migrant children; the rise in arrivals of such children exceeded the capacity of facilities meant to shelter them (before they were sent to sponsors), leading the Biden administration in March to direct the Federal Emergency Management Agency to help.

I think it's reasonable to move this out to domestic issues, where I put the migrant amnesty, and expand the scope since the issue is obviously larger than 100 days. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 18:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on this. I would favor still leaving a line or two about immigration in the 100 days section since apparently editors felt it was important to chronicle the major events of his first 100 days. I don't have any opinion about that and am perfectly willing to let it stand. But, since Biden's stance on immigration was highly anticipated and closely watched, I do think his initial action should be that section, since we have it. To remove the southern border problem from the 100 days section would make it incomplete and could lead some readers to erroneously conclude we were trying to bury it.

I support your idea of expanding the scope. I think I'll go ahead and start a new subsection on immigration and you can add details from March, 2021 (which will repeat and expand on what you would leave in the 100 days section) and add more recent details. YoPienso ( talk) 19:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Anything additional belongs in an article on his presidency, not his main page. Given the controversy, it would not make sense to start a new section on this in this article without prior consensus. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 19:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry if I was a bit hasty. But I stand by my edits, which I had already completed before you recommended waiting. I had opened a discussion six hours earlier (at 13:16, 6 July 2024, if you want to find it on this page) that quickly devolved into bickering between us, so I dropped the stick. No one else commented on our discussion.

Then KiharaNoukan proposed expanding the scope, and we worked collegially on that. Thank you for not reverting our work. No one else has, either, nor has anyone come to Talk with it. This suggests, at the least, a tenuous consensus.

I look forward to working together with you. YoPienso ( talk) 12:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I moderately expanded it with the broadest trends throughout his admin, namely the crossing surge from 2021-2023 and the decline (so far) of 2024, with Biden's most recent actions on border enforcement through his asylum restrictions and pressure on Mexico. I also added in humanitarian parole, since that's one of his biggest tools on mitigating illegal border crossings. Nothing repeats from the relatively detailed info on first 100 days, so it can be left in full for now. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 22:01, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I greatly appreciate your work. I'm not sure how much space we should give to this topic in the BLP. What I see missing here is how Biden's policies helped produce the surge. The WaPo article I linked to earlier directly ties his policies to the 2021 spike. This isn't to minimize other real causes, such as Covid-19 and the situations immigrants fled in their home countries, but Biden's policies were a big factor, too. The results caused widespread dissatisfaction, particularly from the border states and the MAGA faction, but also from others, and are part of the reason for Biden's historically low approval rate. (See this 2024 Gallup Poll report.)

This is well-covered in Presidency of Joe Biden, and perhaps doesn't need to be covered here. Still, it seems to me that there should be at least a brief mention here of the role Biden's policies have played in creating exacerbating the present immigration crisis. YoPienso ( talk) 13:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Polls are meaningless for our purposes. Polls show Trump is trusted more on jobs despite the fact Trump was one of the few presidents who lost jobs while Biden was among the top in gained jobs. Trump trusted more on economy despite experts recently stating his plans would trigger higher inflation. The danger with raw statistics is that they require expert evaluation to examine influential observations. Rather obvious ones in this election.

As for the immigration spike of 2021, The Brookings Institute states:

The easing of some pandemic fears and restrictions helped this gain, which contributed largely to rising growth levels of 0.37% in 2021-22 and to 0.49% in 2022-23. These translate into numeric gains of 1.2 million and 1.6 million people in these years, respectively, compared to just 522,000 in 2020-21.

[9]

NPR article two months ago:

The U.S. southern border is as fortified as ever and Texas is carrying out its own enforcement to stop people from crossing illegally, yet observers and analysts agree on this: migrants not only will continue to come, but their numbers will likely increase in the coming months. The expected surge can be attributed not only to seasonal migration patterns, but an increase of people displaced by war, poverty, and climate factors in all continents.

[10]

The BBC also discusses that this is a global problem, not specifically US.

The increases in migrant figures seen at the US-Mexico border seen in the last several years also come at a time when, globally, migration to rich countries is at an all-time high. Statistics from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) released late last year show that 6.1m new permanent migrants moved to its 38 member states in 2022 - a 26% increase over 2021 and 14% higher than in 2019.

[11]

As for the US, they also state: "There are four failed states in our hemisphere alone."

The director of immigration studies at the Cato Institute stated:

most of the increase in illegal immigration can be blamed on the strength of the labor market rather than the administration’s tinkering with border enforcement policies.

[12]

Keep in mind also that Trump used Title 42 to stem immigration due to the pandemic. The pandemic ended, meaning that Title 42 had to be dropped and there was a pent up demand causing a 2021 spike. The point is that we cannot just look at some raw numbers or polls and draw conclusions. This is an extremely complex dynamic that must be documented in an article that is solely about immigration where it can be given the attention that is required – not stuck in a BLP about one person which will necessarily create false impressions. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 15:29, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for an in-depth, meaningful reply. I don't think you're seeing the whole picture, though.

Polls are meaningless for our purposes. [...] The danger with raw statistics is that they require expert evaluation to examine influential observations.

Reports published by the Gallup and Pew Research polls are expert evaluations and RSs. I don't know why you reject the Gallup Poll and the illustrative graph in the WaPo, or why you call looking at a graph prepared by experts as WP:OR.

The Brookings Institute, while not targeting Biden, says, "Fortunately, government policy can affect immigration levels, and it would be demographically wise to give serious attention to these policies before U.S. population growth declines even further."

That BBC article is titled "Three reasons why so many migrants want to cross from Mexico to US." They are:

1. Pent-up demand after lockdown
2. Global migration trends
3. From Trump to Biden

We both agree with the first two, but you seem to disagree with or ignore the third.

Here are some excerpted quotes from the third reason:

• The switch in the White House in 2021 also contributed, say some experts.
• Under President Biden there was a change of tone and of policy. Deportations fell and "deterrent-focused" policies such as the rapid removal of migrants to Mexico and the building of a border wall ended.
• People trying to cross the border during this time told the BBC they thought that entering and staying in the US was going to be easier now.
• "They feel like there's a pathway to come here," he [an immigration lawyer] added. "It's almost like an invite."

I agree the that immigration is a complex subject, and that the immigration crisis under Trump and Biden rightly has its own article, and but its been such a problem for Biden that we have to have at least a summary of it here. YoPienso ( talk) 16:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I should have said Biden made the immigration problem worse, not that he helped create it. I've amended my comment above. Can't change the edit summary.

. . . the role Biden's policies have played in creating exacerbating the present immigration crisis. YoPienso ( talk) 16:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Polling experts primarily look at one-dimensional opinions of non-experts (voters) and to a minor extent why people vote the way they do, based on what a subpercentage inexpertly say about themselves. I'm not saying that this is trivial. But they do not analyze immigration stats to see actual causes -- only perceived causes by nonexperts, which is more a result of minimal information plus disinformation (massives amounts in this election). That is the larger picture. As for your lengthy response, I think you are making my point. The realities behind immigration are extraordinarily complex and should not be put in simplistic terms in one person's bio. (And I would not be in favor of putting Trump's suggested solutions in his bio -- shooting them in the legs and building a moat with alligators along the border.) They belong in an article that can provide far more detail and sourcing. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 17:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Is there a certain policy that is actually notable and well referenced enough that attributes a significant portion of the border crisis to something Biden did? I see from the BBC that they're discussing a broad reputational change of Trump as being tough on the border vs Biden as soft on the border encouraging migrants to come forward, which is not necessarily a "Biden exacerbated this".

On big ticket items, Biden continued with Title 42 expulsions up until the authority expired with the end of the COVID public health emergency in May 2023. Obviously, the surge did not start in May 2023. A carveout was granted for minors, and that is mentioned in the 100 days.

MPP/Remain in Mexico was ended, and then reinstated for the first half of 2022, and ended again; I'm not sure if I can find reflection of this in influencing migrant surges, since the first half of 2022 saw a rather large migrant wave. If anything, sourcing seems to indicate that Biden's removal of it and replacement with CBP One has sparked Mexican willingness to crack heavily and effectively down on migrants, to the extent that they fear Mexican police far more than CPB and are actually deterred.

Biden's deportation moratorium was blocked, didn't seem to matter either way.

Catch and release/alternative to detention is more prominent under Biden's DHS, although that is also just a reflection of reality, since CPB and ICE do not have sufficient detention space for migrants.

DHS's ICE and CPB have faced budget shortfalls, but that's related to problems with Congress. Biden has for instance, asked for supplemental funding in the border bill negotiated with Senate GOP and died after House GOP/Trump signaled opposition.

PACR and HARP asylum fast-tracks were ended under Biden's DHS. They were pilot programs late into Trump's admin, I can't find usable sources mentioning them.

The closest I have found is implied inaction in Biden choosing not to implement his asylum restrictions earlier, which has been attributed to the 2024 declines, but that is essentially there anyway from the content I included mentioning his 2024 policies and the decline of crossings, without going to OR. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 19:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I was working on the article and writing on the talk page when you posted this and I just now saw it. I think my quotes from the BBC article in my post of 16:49, 7 July 2024 to user O3000 answer the questions. If not, the refs I put in the article may. Cheers! YoPienso ( talk) 20:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for mentioning Title 42. This December 2023 Cato analysis is illuminating in that it seems to indicate Biden inherited the border crisis. Title 42 appears to be the hardly-told story of this whole episode, which now appears to be steadily receding. [13]

The pattern is unmistakable: Gotaways increased almost continuously in parallel with the use of Title 42 [since March 2020] before falling sharply after it ended. Under Title 42, gotaways hit 73,463 in April 2023. Title 42 ended on May 11, and in June gotaways fell 55 percent from their level in May to 32,840. They have remained down by about 59 percent in October 2023 ... Figure 3 shows the "gotaway" rate—that is, the share of gotaways out of all arrests and gotaways. This is a rough approximation of Border Patrol effectiveness. As it shows, since Title 42 ended, the gotaway rate has fallen dramatically to below 14 percent, the lowest level [since 2005] outside of two months in 2019. This is a return to the trend under the Obama administration in reducing the rate of successful crossings.

This is also quite interesting in explaining at least one reason there was a border surge in the first place [14]

Disinformation about "open border" policies is helping spur a massive wave of Central American migrants to take the perilous journey north to the U.S.-Mexico border ... 1 in 4 Central American respondents said they have heard the "border is open," and nearly 1 in 5 respondents said they believed the term "open borders" — and believed most migrants can apply for asylum if they make the trip ... The disinformation originates with politicians and conservative media, according to BSP Research, which conducted the poll ... Media Matters for America, a left-leaning media watchdog group that did research for America's Voice, used a video database to track the use of the term "open borders." The research found Fox News mentioned “open borders” 3,842 times from Nov. 1, 2020, through Aug. 22, 2023. Newsmax mentioned "open borders" 3,257 times during the same period ... "These words by politicians and the message of open borders are being consumed throughout the region, and used by smugglers who are trying to prey on people's desperation"

Not to mention the Lankford immigration bill that Trump killed, despite the border patrol union (which twice endorsed Trump) instantly endorsing it, which would have changed "catch and release" to "catch and detain." After all, "chaos is our friend," a person close to Trump said. [15] soibangla ( talk) 09:27, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Why does such a large amount of coverage belong in Biden's BLP? This would make sense for the article on his presidency, but not here. EvergreenFir (talk) 15:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Please edit as you see best to maintain proper WP:WEIGHT. YoPienso ( talk) 16:51, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Right now, Joe_Biden#Southern_border looks fine to EvergreenFir (talk) 17:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

With input from users O3000, Ret. and Evergreen Fir, I've done a drastic paring of the subsection. Thank you, user KiharaNoukan, for you excellent work. Perhaps it's too much for this article, but you could insert it into another article such as Immigration policy of the Joe Biden administration or Presidency of Joe Biden or Mexico–United States border crisis. My greatly reduced version is by no means a final product, but I hope it's a step in the right direction. We need to mention immigration in a section of the BLP called "Presidency (2021–present)," but it should be only a brief summary. YoPienso ( talk) 19:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

From my reading, it seems like most of their critiques are with regards to the level of detail and certain claims in the OP and the attempts to attribute the migrant crisis to Biden's policies (what exactly are they?). From above conversations, the problems with details involve claims of drug trafficking via the border, wall expansion, and checkpoint closures. I'm not seeing grave objection to inclusion of big picture policies like humanitarian parole, asylum restrictions from 2024, and general big picture stats explaining the issue and how the situation has evolved.

I myself have multiple problems with the OP, I would characterize my comments as mostly divorced from the ideas framed there and most of the immediate resulting conversations. Biden's "last ditch effort" has been linked to a substantial slowdown in illegal crossings by RS, and two stats from the "key facts", CBP One applicants and CHNV parolees, are not even illegal immigrants.

For reference, this is what I would add on the section. I am fine with additions that mention critique of Biden's policies specifically, but they need to be properly sourced and well recognized by RS. I'm not aware of an actual policy Biden utilized that is generally regarded in RS as responsible for the border crisis:

Illegal border crossings across the Mexico–United States border spiked after a pandemic-era lull from 2020. From 2021 to 2023, illegal crossings surged to record highs, reaching an all-time monthly high in December 2023. ^{[1] [2] [3] [4]} Throughout 2024, crossings began to significantly decline from the December record, after Biden implemented restrictions on asylum claims from migrants who cross the border between ports of entry and urged Mexico to crack down on migrants. ^{[5] [6] [7]} Biden has also utilized humanitarian parole on an unprecedented level to mitigate illegal border crossings, allowing migrants to fly into the United States or schedule their entries through official entry points in the US-Mexico border. Over 1 million migrants have been admitted into the US under humanitarian parole as of January 2024. ^{[8] [9] [10]} KiharaNoukan ( talk) 07:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree that the OP is unlikely to find consensus.

Biden's initial immigration policies, decisions, and methods are found at Immigration policy of the Joe Biden administration, which is partially sourced from a CNN article. Also click on the links in its first two paragraphs.

For a formal list of Biden's executive actions, see here.

Popularly, his policies about the southern border were to reverse all of Trump's policies. YoPienso ( talk) 08:13, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The issue of illegal immigration is tucked away in a subsection under another subsection, Domestic policy, politely entitled, Southern border. Illegal immigration is not a "domestic policy". It's an issue that poses a serious national security threat. FBI director Christopher Wray stressed the point that after the Hamas attack on Israel on October 7 of last year, the incentive for terrorist attacks against the United States increased. ^[11] Indeed we had Hamas activists on college campuses calling for the death of Israel and the US. Just last month 8 suspected terrorists with ties to ISIS crossed the border and were soon arrested in New York, L.A. and Philadelphia, and is only the tip of the iceberg. ^[12] According to the US Customs and Border Protection , 362 aliens on the terrorist watchlist have been caught crossing the Southwest border illegally since 2021. ^[13] Under the Southern border subsection there is a main article link to Immigration policy of the Joe Biden administration, but the issue of terrorism is not even mentioned in that article.
In any case, having a dedicated article on a specific topic doesn't mean we must only treat an issue here with one obtuse sentence, that the Biden administration has simply "mishandled the matter". The topic of illegal immigration and all it implies at this point in time needs to be summarized with a short paragraph at least. Biden's position on illegal immigration should be covered in the Political positions section as is the abortion issue, which is mentioned four times. The Southern border section also ignores the issue of illegal immigration at the northern border, which has witnessed alarming numbers of illegal crossings under Biden's watch. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 21:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I thought awhile before putting it in "Domestic issues," but think I was right to do so. Why? Because the article of a POTUS is from a US perspective. Although Biden does have dealings with other nations about migration, this isn't an issue primarily about treaties or diplomacy. It's about how immigration affects the US once the migrants enter the country.

I'm attempting to adhere to WP:WEIGHT. Other editors will work on it with their own insights. It may be expanded a little or a lot, or even deleted.

I haven't really studied Immigration policy of the Joe Biden administration, but of course you're free to edit there. And here, too! Best wishes, YoPienso ( talk) 21:48, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

The issue of illegal immigration and all its effects has an inherent WEIGHT. Aside from its impact on national resources, it involves crime, drug trafficking, human trafficking and a backdrop to mask terrorist infiltration. This is a BLP, but this article wouldn't be here if Biden wasn't once a VP, and now a president. It is in that capacity that many issues warrant coverage to one degree or another. Biden's "mishandling of illegal immigration", or more accurately, his ignoring of the issue until (very) lately, is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, criticisms hanging over his head. He has taken measures to offset the problem, but again, the damage has been done, and the wall is far from complete 3 1/2 years later because from the beginning of his term he stopped its funding..This all can be covered, and well sourced, with a paragraph no bigger than this one. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 01:56, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you self-rvt this gross BLP vio. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 02:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Gwillhickers Please try to be just a little bit objective. HiLo48 ( talk) 02:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, your POV is that illegal immigration has "inherent weight" and is a super big deal. But we go by what RS say. The question here is how (much) is this related to Joe Biden? EvergreenFir (talk) 17:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Back to your first post after the edit break, Gwillhickers, I see you feel that this issue has been "tucked away." In fact, I just pulled it out of where it was more deeply tucked away under "Other domestic policy issues" so it would be more prominent, which I felt gave it closer to its due weight. I will consider renaming the subsection "Immigration" and add a very brief paragraph about the northern border.

Looking at the three sources you posted, I have these observations:

1. FBI Director Wray said nothing about the border in his statement about homeland security. Neither the word "border" nor "Mexico" appears on the page. Wray does warn about foreign terrorists coming to the US, but also warns about "domestic violent extremists" like the three he refers to in Chicago, Ithaca, and Los Angeles.
2. The 8 Tajikis came through the southern border, but the FBI tracked them and ICE agents arrested them.
3. You said illegal immigration "involves crime, drug trafficking, human trafficking and a backdrop to mask terrorist infiltration." That's true, but let's not exaggerate it. I couldn't find your 362 figure on the watchlist, but I did find 13,254 Criminal Noncitizens Encountered. Such a tiny percentage! With 929,395 total encounters, only 1.426% were criminals! Now, we don't know how many criminals weren't encountered, but we can tell that MOST of the immigrants are NOT criminals, unlike what some partisan sources claim or imply. YoPienso ( talk) 04:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

OK let's try this "In what critics called a border crisis the US border service stopped more illegal immigrants than before"? Is that acceptable? Slatersteven ( talk) 10:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

In what context? I don't really know what you mean. Are you serious or sarcastic? If you're serious, please don't soften the actual border crisis by implying it exists mainly in the minds of critics. It's real. Biden knows it's real. That's why early on he made a big deal about putting Harris in charge of it, and just recently, has made stricter policies aimed at stanching the flow while still having a heart. YoPienso ( talk) 11:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Its called compromise, you want to say there is a crisis, but others disagree (including RS). So you either work together on a compromise, or it does not get mentioned. Slatersteven ( talk) 11:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Ummm . . . Mexico–United States border crisis

Which RSs deny there's been a border crisis under Biden? From my perspective, there's been a border crisis for decades. YoPienso ( talk) 13:42, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, exactly for decades, not just under Buden.

https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/there-is-no-migrant-crisis/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/18/us-mexico-immigration-border-crisis

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/03/25/border-crisis-immigration-explained-biden-trump-mexico-478049

Ohh and Wikipedia is not an RS and that article talked about "encounters", so yes it is talking about interception, which has risen (per my suggested edit). Slatersteven ( talk) 13:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Also "Senate Republicans swiftly turned against the bill upon its release, after Trump openly said he did not want Joe Biden to score a political win with the legislation." so Bidens attempt to solve it was scuppered by the GOP, should we also say that? Slatersteven ( talk) 13:53, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

So you agree there's a border crisis as long as we don't claim it's happened entirely under Biden? I'm super good with that.

The Boston Review article is written by an activist who elsewhere has advocated for the dismantling of the "violent security state," by which she means a nation that guards its borders. Her opinion piece (not so labeled, but apparent) in the BR addresses worldwide migration and argues for doing away with national borders altogether. Not relevant to our discussion.

The Guardian article quotes a refugee advocate who denies there's a crisis. She herself arrived in the US from Mexico at age 12, hidden in the trunk of a car, and was eventually granted amnesty under Reagan. She sounds like a wonderful person! Yet she's biased. The article quotes another activist who admits only to a border crisis involving children. Mind you, there are also quotes from Gov. Abbott. In it's own voice, The Guardian says, "After four years of racist, chaotic, anti-immigration policies by the Trump administration – as well as growing desperation fuelled by the pandemic and extreme climate events – the number of people seeking to enter the US is rising." The clear implication is that, along with natural factors, the change of administration also encouraged more people to come.

The Politico article is highly relevant to our discussion. It takes the broader view of why people migrate rather than the narrower view of what's happening at the southern border and within the US. I believe we have a consensus that this is a good way to cover the crisis. The article shows the importance of perceptions by migrants: "There was a perception that with Biden, the border would be more open. And then the reality was that some people actually did get in." [Italics in original.] And it halfheartedly acknowledges the existence of a crisis: "Is there an immigration crisis? Yes. An asylum crisis? You bet. A border crisis? Sort of."

Wikipedia isn't an RS, but Mexico–United States border crisis lists 64 RSs.

I'm not sure there's room in this BLP for the fact that Trump maneuvered the defeat of Biden's bill, but it certainly should be (and probably is?) in one or more of the series of articles about Biden's presidency and the border crisis. Collaborative work here will determine how much to include. I opened the sub-subsection and then pared it to the bones and am watching its evolution. YoPienso ( talk) 15:19, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

No, I agree that it has been called a border crisis, and has been called that for decades. And I disagree, if you include the border crisis here we must explain all of the above, to give context, that is is not just on Biden. And with that I will comment no more until a reasonable suggestion is given as to how to word this. Assume silence is an objection to any suggested text. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Would you agree with a plain-factual description of the issue under Biden as stated by RS, ie. record/all-time high levels of illegal crossings, without descriptors like crisis? From NYT, AP, ABC, CNN, Pew Research, Washington Post, CBS, VOA Texas Tribune, mentioning that under Biden the border has seen the highest influxes at a yearly rate, monthly rate, daily rate, across 2021, 2022, 2023 take your pick.

This should work better than broad and ensuing descriptors of "crisis", as presidential administrations do tend to vary in how many migrant crossings occur, with crossings under Biden's admin being an indisputable high mark. I don't think it's NPOV either way to say it is or isn't on Biden, I haven't really seen sourcing to absolve or incriminate him on any policies for this surge, with the possible exception of Biden's policy against detaining children & family units, which is somewhat mentioned in first 100 days but not further elaborated on. However, RS do attribute declines in crossings in 2024 to policies he enacted around that time, which should also be mentioned. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 17:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if you're asking me or Slatersteven or everyone, but here I go. . .

I agree with your ideas. I admire your skill and collegiality. Please proceed if no one objects. YoPienso ( talk) 17:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Well it's not neutral if you ignore the fact that the record increases are in many countries, not just the US. "Under Biden" is not neutral. You can not be neutral if you mention effect without the causes. Which is why this belongs in another article. Indeed, if it does have anything to do with Biden's presidential policies, would it not fit better in his presidency article, not a bio of 80 years and a half century in office? O3000, Ret. ( talk) 17:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah it can be mentioned under a global migration surge. I fail to see how it being global means it is not fit for inclusion. Global trends impact the US. Should issues around climate change and COVID-19, both clearly global, be left out? I mirrored my edits from longstanding content that discusses inflation under Biden (again, also global for developed countries):

Amid a surge in inflation and high gas prices, Biden's approval ratings declined, reaching net negative in early 2022.[371][372][373] After 5.9% growth in 2021, real GDP growth cooled in 2022 to 2.1%, after slightly negative growth in the first half spurred recession concerns. Job creation and consumer spending remained strong through the year, as the unemployment rate fell to match a 53-year low of 3.5% in December. Inflation peaked at 9.1% in June before easing to 3.2% by October 2023. Stocks had had their worst year since 2008[374][375][376] before recovering. Widespread predictions of an imminent recession did not materialize in 2022 or 2023, and by late 2023 indicators showed sharply lower inflation with economic acceleration. GDP growth hit 4.9% in the third quarter of 2023 and the year ended with stocks near record highs, with robust holiday spending. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 17:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Well everyone knows climate change and Covid were global and not caused by a president yet (except those that believe climate change is a fraud). Certain politicians and unreliable, but widely watched, media have been heavily pushing the concept that Biden created an immigration problem. The situation is highly complex and there exists fault everywhere (illicit export of guns to Mexican drug gangs, MS-13 gangs in Ecuador that originated in the US, American thirst for drugs -- Purdue Pharma). Pardon me for seemingly going off track. But this needs to be wholly described in one article. The more said in this article, the more difficult to maintain neutrality and avoid the political feeding frenzy. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 18:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comparing climate change and COVID, global phenomena, to Biden's neglect of the borders is not even an analogy. Those things were beyond Biden's control, unlike illegal immigration which he could have slowed down considerably if he made an effort, but he didn't even try. In fact, his approach made it easier. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for making my point, inadvertently. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 18:42, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

It would help if you actually addressed the points, rather than generically acclaiming your own opinion. Once again, Biden had no control over the emergence of climate change or COVID, acts of nature, unlike his neglect of the borders, where numbers of illegal immigrants began to drastically increase right after he assumed office. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)..

You are displaying the exact problem I am talking about. You mention two things and claim cause and effect completely ignoring so many, many other factors. Immigration just ain't that simple. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 18:53, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Immigration is complex. So is inflation. So is practically every political issue mentioned here. If applied consistently, exclusion of major issues because of complexity would see deletion of most of this page. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 19:21, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Strawman. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 22:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

How can you say he didn't even try when he kept so many Trump era policies in place and fought in court to keep them in place? Very little changed between the administrations other than tone. Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65574725 EvergreenFir (talk) 19:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• Agree with KiharaNoukan and Yopienso on multiple points. — As said, this BLP can cover illegal immigration under Biden as much as any other political or social issue he is involved with. To single out illegal immigration, which by all accounts has boomed under Biden, who closed down check points, stopped funding of the wall as soon as he assumed office, etc, would amount to censorship if all we're going to say is that Biden simply "mishandled the southern border". All that need be done would be to present the numbers and mention some of the resultant affairs that have subsequently occurred. We wouldn't assert that this is the "biggest" issue hanging over Biden's head, (as compared to abortion, inflation, etc) or that it's all his fault, etc. We just present a few of the main facts and let the readers draw their own conclusions. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

  We just present a few of the main facts and let the readers draw their own conclusions. Wasn't that the old Fox line? We provide selected parts of the facts, you decide. You are clearly presenting a totally unobjective set of "facts". As HiLo48 said this morning, "Please try to be just a little bit objective". O3000, Ret. ( talk) 18:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh I see, Because Fox once expressed the idea of letting the facts speak for themselves, then (poof!) the idea automatically has no merit?? Nonsense. You're asking for objectivity, yet scoff at the idea of presenting the basic facts with no opinions attached. e.g."The biggest issue", etc. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:55, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

There are hundreds of facts. You want to present the two that "prove" your assertions. Immigration ain't that simple or it would have been solved around the world long ago. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 19:03, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a no-brainer. We cover Trump's immigration policies and actions in his BLP. Of course we cover Biden's. YoPienso ( talk) 19:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCONTENT Trump does not have a half-century in government. Also, he proposed and attempted dramatic (extreme) changes in immigration. That's what the discussion is about in his bio. Further, Gee's simplistic proposal is to directly indicate that the immigrations problems are entirely caused by Biden. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 19:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Yopienso, Indeed. the double standard here is now becoming an issue. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:32, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

O3000 — Yes, there are hundreds of facts, but there are several basic facts involving Biden's efforts, or lack of them, which have been reported by scores of reliable sources. You're attempt to make this all seem like some complex equation isn't washing. Numbers of illegal aliens have boomed under Biden. Hundreds of individuals on the terrorist watch list have blended in with them and have made the crossing, along with all the drug and human traffickers, with nothing in place to stop them -- and we're supposed to believe their arrival is just some freak coincidence. And someone's length of time in public service doesn't negate the facts.-- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:32, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

But I'm not seeing this delineation based on "some people believe". Like I mentioned, inflation was global too, and does anyone seriously doubt that many, if not most people, lay the blame towards the president, rightfully or wrongfully? Do we see excision of inflation from this article due to it occurring across the world? And there are certainly arguments in RS that presidential action can contribute to the worsening of Climate change. See RS coverage of Biden's energy policy, under which the US saw a record high in oil production, and related climate criticisms.

Also, it is not NPOV to claim Biden's policies on the border have no effect. They do not blame Biden's policies as a sole or majority cause of the migrant surge, but neither do RS cast Biden as a helpless actor or claim that Biden had no impact on migrants. Drops in migration in 2024 are readily linked to his policies on asylum restrictions and pressure on Mexico. There are also RS that state some of Biden's policies have factored into the surge. Per NYT: It can be more difficult for border agents to detain, deport or otherwise enforce punishments on families than on single adults. There is a legal limit on how long children can be held, and the Biden administration ended the practice of detaining families in 2021. It is murky overall on how much can be attributed to Biden, but as I mentioned above with how the article covers Inflation, why not give the basic stats, point out it is a high priority issue occurring under Biden's admin, and explain the major policies he implemented in response? KiharaNoukan ( talk) 19:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Exactly! Please carry out your level-headed suggestions. YoPienso ( talk) 19:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

You appear to be trying to "prove" the Biden was negligent in his border policies. That's fine if you think that, but we need RS that explicitly say that and that it be a widely reported view. I think it would be fair to add a line about him being criticized for laxity on the border... there are certainly enough sources for that. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

KiharaNoukan seems to be as unbiased as a person can be. I agree and believe KN does, too, that "it would be fair to add a line about him being criticized for laxity on the border." YoPienso ( talk) 19:42, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I think that line is still contentious, I've left it out on my most recent edit. It should probably be included in a RS-sourced causes of migration. Working primarily off of this NYT article which does a decent breakdown, a possible line can be:

The cause of the surge of migration has been attributed to global patterns, such as crime, political instability, and economic strife in Latin American countries, changing demographics of migrants, particularly an influx of family units, and shifts in policy, such as legal limits on detaining families and children. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 19:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Well it looks like criticism has been added, IMO it is jumping the gun without RS grounding in describing what is specifically is there to be criticized, but if it settles the issue, then that's fine. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 20:05, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

For the record, the current text says:

As part of a worldwide migration surge stemming from complex economic and political circumstances across the globe, illegal crossings across the Mexico–United States border increased during Biden’s administration. The border issue has become source of dissatisfaction among voters who believed Biden mishandled it. The Biden administration responded by preventing those who cross the border illegally from applying asylum and increasing deportations.

This seems accurate and high-level enough for Biden's BLP. What more exactly do you want added? EvergreenFir (talk) 19:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The phrase "...dissatisfaction among voters who believed Biden mishandled it. " is a milk toast statement that doesn't touch on the reasons why so many people are concerned with the boom in illegal crossings under Biden. The text should include the idea that the risk of terrorist infiltration and drug and human trafficking has increased.
For example: "In 2023, CBP, including Air and Marine Operations, has seized 27,293 pounds of fentanyl, coming across the Southwest border—enough to kill more than 6 billion people." ^[1]. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 19:56, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

No, we cannot do that. You are trying to add WP:SYNTH material. That would belong in an article about the border crisis itself, not Biden's BLP. And you are only focusing on one side of the criticism, which has been coming from both liberals and conservatives. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no SYNTH here. This is all part of what has illegally crossed the border. You're suggesting these affairs are not related to illegal crossings. The article mentions voters concerns. It is not SYNTH to present a few of the major facts behind those concerns. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

It is, at best, WP:COATRACK to "present a few of the major facts behind those concerns". The topic of this article is Joe Biden, not fentanyl or terrorism. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Biden's closing of dozens of checkpoints and his refusal to resume building of the wall is largely responsible for the surge in mass illegal immigration. This includes things like terrorism and drug trafficking infiltration -- these are only some of the details associated, which are of great concern to citizens. This doesn't make the article about " fentanyl or terrorism". If anything, the text should indicate that serious national security threats have resulted in Biden's mishandling of the border. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Uh got any citations for Biden's closing of dozens of checkpoints and his refusal to resume building of the wall is largely responsible for the surge in mass illegal immigration? Because Biden's mishandling of the border sounds like your personal opinion. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 20:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

"Uh", why don't you review the thread and get back to me instead of inferring that these things are all fictional? The current text says "mishandling of the border". Why don't you check with the editor who made that edit? -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:36, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I have reviewed this thread. So you do not have citations to back up what you say, only incivility. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 20:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Dozens of sources note Biden's first actions regarding the border upon assuming office, and the immediate sharp rise in illegal crossings.that followed. The US Customs and Border Protection stated, "Since President Biden and Secretary Mayorkas took office, there have been more than 9.5 million encounters nationwide and more than 7.8 million encounters at the Southwest border" ^[2] Biden's first actions were to shut down dozens of checkpoints and stop funding of the wall, which was a clear indication that Biden was not at all being vigilant about illegal crossings. You can assume that there is no relationship between these things and the sharp rise in illegal crossings if you prefer. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 22:05, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The clear indication you speak about is your own personal bias and it does not belong here. Otherwise, your assumption of a direct relationship is an illusory correlation. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 23:34, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

My take on the immigration issue in Biden's BLP is that it should simply tell in a few words what happened. I don't think this is the place for analysis of the issue or causes and effects. That's what the main article is for. Here we just note it was a fraught issue. As I said above, "This happened during Biden's presidency. For the purposes of this BLP, it doesn't matter why."

I would prefer we draw from "Illegal border crossings soared in the months after Biden took office and immediately rolled back many Trump-era restrictions" in the WaPo article I linked to earlier. I would prefer that we note the decline of border crossings after he changed his policy last month. These are decisions to be made by consensus, not by me alone. YoPienso ( talk) 20:56, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, this is simplistic. It assumes a connection not proven. It ignores many items: Covid restrictions altered, reversal of policies that resulted in large separations of children from parents, contraction of Covid in densely populated holding areas, Constitutional problems in the mass detentions, situations in other countries behind the base problems that caused so many people to endanger their lives to migrate such long distances, worldwide problems. That's just off the top of my head. Why are some trying to make such an incredibly complex situation sound so simple? This happened during Biden's presidency. For the purposes of this BLP, it doesn't matter why." I have no words for that comment other than BLP is of paramount importance. And he didn't cause it to be 120 degrees in Las Vegas yesterday. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 22:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@ Objective3000 Can someone delete the ^why? @Gwillhickers added? Seananony ( talk) 12:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done –  Muboshgu ( talk) 15:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 Undone. Asking 'why?' is appropriate here. Controversial and empty statements need to be explained with a short statement, backed by reliable sources. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 16:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

This article is under enforced WP:BRD. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 16:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@ Yopienso I agree. I see too much duplication of main pages, not just on this page but on many others. Link to the main page and just give a quick overview, maybe the page description from that main page. We shouldn't have to debate all these issues on every talk page that may be incidentally related.

Incidentally, Fareed Zakaria in his new book, Age of Revolutions, says (to paraphrase), if the only people willing to say they will stop immigration are fascists, then people will elect fascists. Something to think about... Seananony ( talk) 12:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Illegal immigrants didn't begin pouring in because of COVID, or any of the events e.g.in "holding areas". They came to the US seeking opportunity, and unfortunately, so did many drug and human traffickers who could care less about COVID, knowing that checkpoints were gone, and that the wall was going nowhere, and that the Dem's always touted political support for any and all immigrants. A green light if ever there was one. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 23:03, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The text was revised and current looks like this. It covers the numeric changes, the context, and the political. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Evergreen, I think your contribution is superb, touching all the bases impartially without going into great detail.

That is, if the section was still called "Southern border." I'm fine with adding the northern border, Gwillhickers, but it's out of context where you inserted it, and you didn't cite it. I'm not sure it has enough weight to include in this BLP. I know little about what's happened there, so defer to others' knowledge. If it is weighty enough, I would support the name change and suggest one short paragraph about the Canadian border at the bottom of the section.

My personal preference is to let Evergreen's version stand. What is our consensus? YoPienso ( talk) 21:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The former title, Southern border, dismisses the idea of the millions that have crossed the northern border. The title Illegal immigration is all inclusive and much more to the point. I'll provide sources for the Canadian crossings directly. — Here's two: NBC Feb 9, 2023 — CBS news.com, March 15, 2024 -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 22:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support - Balanced, accurate, meets WP:NPOV WP:BLP WP:BALANCE even WP:GNG, if it applied.
• Partial support. Fair and objective in some respects. Equating the sharp rise with illegal crossings, however, that immediately followed after Biden assumed office, to "global migration" is dubious at best. Still no mention of some of the things Biden did at the border upon assuming office, which brings BALANCE into question. BLP doesn't automatically mean we can't note major details in a summary and reference to another related article, nor that we make the article read like an outline. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 22:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support EvergreenFir's version. Given that the vast majority of attention in reliable sources is on the southern border, I don't think the discussion of the northern border has enough weight to include in this article. (Moreover, according to CBP's own statistics, the number of encounters during Biden's presidency at the northern border is less than 5.5% of the number of encounters at the southern border.) Further, almost all of the discussion in the section deals specifically with the southern border. Per WP:DUE, I think it would be better to remove the references to the northern border and revert the heading back to "Southern border." (On the same note, regarding the comment that the title "Southern border" ...dismisses the idea of the millions that have crossed the northern border -- I have not seen any source that supports the "idea" that "millions" have crossed the northern border during Biden's presidency, not even close. Aoi (青い) ( talk) 00:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Aoi — My apologies, you are correct, not millions, but hundreds of thousands. < NBC Feb 9, 2023 — CBS news.com, March 15, 2024 > Yes, the majority of illegal crossings are at the southern border, and we give weight and coverage accordingly, but the advent at the northern border merits some coverage. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - !voting here is apparently pointless as editors are now just doing whatever they personally feel like in the article. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 10:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

That's proving to be a two way street,. Making sweeping and derogatory accusations about editors is not helping. Please assume good faith, even when one's views are contrary to yours. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 17:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I don’t fully understand what this is about but I stumbled across it and it seems very out of hand and non-constructive, particularly user:Gwillhickers and their dubiously accurate POV/soapbox claims more suited to Fox News than a Wikipedia talk page. If someone’s got a legitimate recommendation here please voice it now; otherwise I’d like to close this as unproductive. Dronebogus ( talk) 12:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Dronebogus — Real issues and viable threats to the country as stated by the Border Protection Agency and the FBI may seem like "soapbox" to some individuals, almost always those trying to water down the issue to the point of obscurity, but this is a prominent view supported by many reliable sources, including government sources. Trying to render the issue as something that was caused by "COVID" and "global migration", etc is highly misleading. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 16:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Your framing about “millions” illegal migrants and “drug dealers” “pouring” over the border because of the “dem’s” [sic] offering support for “any and all immigrants”, while talking approvingly of “the wall”, is hardly neutral. Dronebogus ( talk) 04:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I suggest we revert to the status quo and fully protect the article until a proper discussion takes place. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 13:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Support Dronebogus ( talk) 13:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, we need an RFC clearly, with an actual suggestion as to what to say, as right now its too one sided. 13:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by slatersteven ( talk • contribs)

To the unregistered user above. — We've been discussing several actual suggestions as to what to say. However, an RfC might help, but I suspect this will just be a prolonged event like the one that's occurring here. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 16:52, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

That “unregistered user” is slatersteven Dronebogus ( talk) 04:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Why is Biden's diagnosis of covid under domestic policy? Seananony ( talk) 03:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it was a very important decision Dronebogus ( talk) 12:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

"Decision"? Biden didn't 'decide' to get COVID. Agree with Seananony. Getting COVID is not a domestic policy. This should be mentioned under Biden's personal life. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 16:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

That's the problem, and the reason I didn't fix this when Seananony first mentioned--this article has no "Personal life" section. Odd, huh? YoPienso ( talk) 16:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, one among many such things wrong with this article. This is an encyclopedia article, not a promotional piece for Biden, and is supposed to mention the good with the not so good, in neutral well sourced terms. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 16:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

It does mention quite negative events about Biden. But we should not add your post hoc conclusions about immigration. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 17:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Those "post hoc conclusions" are what multiple reliable sources have indicated. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 17:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• "negative events"?? Can you quote just one statement that covers a clear fault concerning Biden? -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 17:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not necessary for you to have the last word in every discussion on this thread, Hickers. Stop de-railing. Acalamari 17:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

"de-railing"? That was a legitimate request. If I'm wrong here I'm sure no one will hesitate to bring it to my attention, where I'll be more than happy to give them the last word. Thanx. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 18:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@ Gwillhickers See the investigations section. Seananony ( talk) 01:11, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@ Yopienso Maybe drop the section header and put that paragraph about the 2022 diagnosis under the 2022 elections section? Seananony ( talk) 01:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the article needs a "Personal life" section. YoPienso ( talk) 02:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree. There is no lack of information for a personal life section, there is precedent for articles like these to have one, and it is important information for a biography. QuicoleJR ( talk) 02:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

We do have an article on Biden's personal life, so maybe that's why the article doesn't focus on that. (However, this doesn't mean that the section can't be expanded.) CitationsFreak ( talk) 06:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

It’s a joke Dronebogus ( talk) 04:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The simple English WP has personal life and health sections we could copy or use as a guide. YoPienso ( talk) 12:51, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes that’s sensible. Dronebogus ( talk) 15:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Now that the opening statement in the Southern border section is neutral and not misleading, with no unsourced claims that "global migration" and "COVID" were the primary reasons behind the immigration surge, we can remove the NPOV tag. The section still warrants a few more of the pertinent facts, par with the details and size of many other sections, but we can deal with that in due course it seems. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:11, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Now that the opening statement mentions the surge began after Biden assumed office AND amid "global migration"trends, the statement is better balanced. Taking either one of those ideas out of the equation would be misleading. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 23:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)