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On 21 April 2009, Henep Isum Mandingo and Hup Daniel Wemp of Papua New Guinea filed a $10 million USD defamation lawsuit against Diamond and The New Yorker http://www.blnz.com/news/2009/04/22/Author_Jared_Diamond_sued_libel_4083.html over a 2008 New Yorker magazine article entitled "Vengeance Is Ours: What Can Tribal Societies Tell Us About Our Need to Get Even?” http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/war/diamond-vengeance.pdf
The single-source article, which was originally intended to be a chapter in his latest book, . [1] http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/new_yorker_under_siege.php The World Until Yesterday, http://www.npr.org/books/titles/167742411/the-world-until-yesterday-what-can-we-learn-from-traditional-societies is an account of feuds and vengeance killings among tribes in the New Guinea highlands. Forbes reported that Mandingo and Wemp “challenge a story depicting them as rapists, murderers and pig thieves.” http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/21/new-yorker-jared-diamond-business-media-new-yorker.html
The lawsuit came in the wake of an investigation by Rhonda Roland Shearer http://www.imediaethics.org/News/149/Jared_diamonds_factual_collapse__.php alleged inaccuracies in the article, most notably that Mandingo, the alleged target of the feud who was said to have been rendered wheelchair-bound in the fighting recounted by Diamond, is fit and healthy. http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/new_yorker_under_siege.php
Science reported May 15, 2009, that in a September 12, 2008 letter to an attorney representing Wemp, “ ‘The New Yorker general counsel Lynn Oberlander agreed, ‘as a sign of good will,’that the magazine would remove Diamond’s article from the freely accessible part of its Web site.’” Balter, M. (2009). "'Vengeance' Bites Back at Jared Diamond". Science 324 (5929): 872–874. doi:10.1126/science.324_872. PMID 19443760. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/24/new-yorker-new-guinea-lawsuit
However, Diamond and the New Yorker stand by the article. They maintain that it is a faithful account of the story related to Diamond by Wemp while they worked together in 2001 and in a formal interview in 2006, based on "detailed notes", and that both Diamond and the magazine did all they reasonably could to verify the story. Furthermore they claim that in a taped phone interview conducted in August 2008 between Daniel Wemp and Chris Jennings, a fact checker for the New Yorker, Wemp failed to raise any significant objections. Balter, M. (2009). "'Vengeance' Bites Back at Jared Diamond". Science 324 (5929): 872–874. doi:10.1126/science.324_872. PMID 19443760.
The lawsuit continued in New York State Courts http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/18/papua-jared-diamond-business-media-new-yorker.html until a few months after Wemp and Mnadingo’s lawyer’s sudden death. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/24/nyregion/24litman.html?_r=0
By June 16 2010, 14 months after filing, a stipulation to withdraw the case without prejudice or costs was signed by all parties allowing the tribesmen to file new litigation in Papua New Guinea, as reported by The Observer. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/jan/06/jared-diamond-tribal-life-anthropology http://www.imediaethics.org/misc/2013/2013.01.06-stip.pdf The Observer originally relied on Diamond’s claim to them that “I am happy to say the case was dismissed."” However, the Ombudsman soon deleted the incorrect Diamond claim from their story http://www.imediaethics.org/images/The_Observer_uk_Diamond_feature.png and ran corrections online and in print: “This article was amended on 9 January 2013 to make it clear that the libel lawsuit against Jared Diamond filed by Daniel Wemp and Isum Mandingo was withdrawn by mutual consent and that further action is pending.” http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/jan/06/jared-diamond-tribal-life-anthropology
Despite, Diamond’s original plan to make it a chapter in his recent book, The New Yorker story about Wemp and Mandingo, although central to its theme, is left out of Diamond’s The World Until Yesterday. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/jan/06/jared-diamond-tribal-life-anthropology. On page 88 of the book, Diamond states that he was never involved in any civil litigation with tribesmen, "In my lifetime I have become involved in three civil disputes-with a cabinet maker, with a swimming-pool contractor, and with a real estate agent."
Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 18:12, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
References
-stop-
Comment. That appears accurate to my mind, but is nonethelss whoppingly WP:UNDUE (>50% of the whole BLP?) for a lawsuit that does not currently exist. The only change that seems justified would be to edit the original sentence to replace "dismissed" with "withdrawn." An expansion would more reasonably occur if/when the suit is re-filed and if/when a secondary source covers it. — James Cantor ( talk) 18:24, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
The entry presents facts not opinions. I have copied and pasted it here sans links for easier reading Find links in version above. Vengeance Is Ours (2008)
On 21 April 2009, Henep Isum Mandingo and Hup Daniel Wemp of Papua New Guinea filed a $10 million USD defamation lawsuit against Diamond and The New Yorker over a 2008 New Yorker magazine article entitled "Vengeance Is Ours: What Can Tribal Societies Tell Us About Our Need to Get Even?” (FACTS, supported by links)
The single-source article, which was originally intended to be a chapter in his latest book, The World Until Yesterday, is an account of feuds and vengeance killings among tribes in the New Guinea highlands. Forbes reported that Mandingo and Wemp “challenge a story depicting them as rapists, murderers and pig thieves.” (MORE FACTS, supported by links) The lawsuit came in the wake of an investigation by Rhonda Roland Shearer alleged inaccuracies in the article, most notably that Mandingo, the alleged target of the feud who was said to have been rendered wheelchair-bound in the fighting recounted by Diamond, is fit and healthy. (FACTS-- Our investigation found Isum able-bodied, photos show and Diamond concedes Isum Mandingo is not paralyzed nor in a wheelchair, read Balter/Science article the citation you like)
Science reported May 15, 2009, that in a September 12, 2008 letter to an attorney representing Wemp, “ ‘The New Yorker general counsel Lynn Oberlander agreed, ‘as a sign of good will,’that the magazine would remove Diamond’s article from the freely accessible part of its Web site.’” (FACT, supported by links)
However, Diamond and the New Yorker stand by the article. They maintain that it is a faithful account of the story related to Diamond by Wemp while they worked together in 2001 and in a formal interview in 2006, based on "detailed notes", and that both Diamond and the magazine did all they reasonably could to verify the story. Furthermore they claim that in a taped phone interview conducted in August 2008 between Daniel Wemp and Chris Jennings, a fact checker for the New Yorker, Wemp failed to raise any significant objections. The lawsuit continued in New York State Courts until a few months after Wemp and Mandingo’s lawyer’s sudden death. (ALL FACTS, supported by links)
By June 16 2010, 14 months after filing, a stipulation to withdraw the case without prejudice or costs was signed by all parties allowing the tribesmen to file new litigation in Papua New Guinea, as reported by The Observer. The Observer originally relied on Diamond’s claim to them that “I am happy to say the case was dismissed."” However, the Ombudsman soon deleted the incorrect Diamond claim from their story and ran corrections online and in print: “This article was amended on 9 January 2013 to make it clear that the libel lawsuit against Jared Diamond filed by Daniel Wemp and Isum Mandingo was withdrawn by mutual consent and that further action is pending.” (All FACTS, again supported by links) Despite, Diamond’s original plan to make it a chapter in his recent book, The New Yorker story about Wemp and Mandingo, although central to its theme, is left out of Diamond’s The World Until Yesterday. On page 88 of the book, Diamond states that he was never involved in any civil litigation with tribesmen, "In my lifetime I have become involved in three civil disputes-with a cabinet maker, with a swimming-pool contractor, and with a real estate agent." (FACTS, supported by links).
There does not need to be a final status of the law suit for it to fit guidelines. To have the entry as it is now with no information --not even a link to the New Yorker article in question or its title, or a link that is accessible, is unacceptable as I have said. These facts have abundant authoritative sources. The case is part of serious discussion in the media, academic blogs and literature across many disciplines. There is no gossip. The section needs to be restored. Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 22:33, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Proposed starting point for dialogue and consensus building
James, I have read the page for Wikipedia values you cite and have taken it to heart. As you likely know, I am inexperienced in the Wikipedia community --although I did give a talk at WikiMania in Alexandria, Egypt, following Jimmy Wales (who gave a great talk BTW. Hard act to follow).
I hope my work on updating the deleted section above that was done at Tiggarjay request at least shows my sincere efforts to enter a dialogue. Tiggerjay (talk) 22:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC) I believe that he will be helping with fostering the dialogue here and doing an independent review? Again, I am unfamiliar, and am just learning the process of the community.
So perhaps we can start over in good faith on both sides? I may be wrong, so please explain if I am--that you have communicated to me that no changes, not even the addition of the title of the New Yorker article, cited now as "an article" without link to it, is acceptable to you at this point? Is this correct? However, for your consideration:
Here is what remains of the deleted section:(Emphasis mine).
In 2008, Diamond published an article in The New Yorker, describing the role of revenge in tribal warfare in Papua New Guinea. A year later, two of the men mentioned in the article filed a lawsuit against Diamond and The New Yorker claiming the article defamed them, seeking $10 million in damages.[23] The Observer reported that the lawsuit "was withdrawn by mutual consent and that further action is pending".[24]
23 ^ Balter, M. (2009). "'Vengeance' Bites Back at Jared Diamond". Science 324 (5929): 872–874. doi:10.1126/science.324_872. PMID 19443760.
24 ^ McKie, Robin (January 5, 2013). "Jared Diamond: what we can learn from tribal life". The Observer. Retrieved January 5, 2013.
Please note there is no title nor is there a link provided to the New Yorker article. The reference selected [23] is behind a paywall even though there are many other authoritative links--Forbes, Associated Press among them, that are free and accessible about the case. The tribesmen, who call themselves tribesmen, have names, Hup Daniel Wemp and Henep Isum Mandingo. However, their names were deleted when the section was removed. They were the only two men featured in Diamond's narrative (not just "two of the men") .
Is it agreeable to you as a starting point for dialogue and consensus building to start with what is there now and ...
1. add more or change reference [23] to another Science article that is not behind a paywall and/or add Forbes, Associated Press reports that are not behind a paywall? 2. add the title and a link to the New Yorker article? 3. add the names of the two tribesmen and change "mentioned" to "featured"?
It would look like this:
In 2008, Diamond published an article, "Vengeance Is Ours: What Can Tribal Societies Tell Us About Our Need to Get Even?” in The New Yorker [add reference] , describing the role of revenge in tribal warfare in Papua New Guinea. A year later, Hup Daniel Wemp and Henep Isum Mandingo, tribesmen featured in the article, filed a lawsuit against Diamond and The New Yorker claiming the article defamed them, seeking $10 million in damages.[reference changed or added]. The Observer reported that the lawsuit "was withdrawn by mutual consent and that further action is pending".[24]
Thank you for your consideration. Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 11:44, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
My response
start
In 2008, Diamond published an article, "Vengeance Is Ours: What Can Tribal Societies Tell Us About Our Need to Get Even?” in The New Yorker [add reference] , describing the role of revenge in tribal warfare in Papua New Guinea. A year later, Hup Daniel Wemp and Henep Isum Mandingo, tribesmen featured in the article, filed a lawsuit against Diamond and The New Yorker claiming the article defamed them, seeking $10 million in damages.[non pay wall reference added]. The Observer reported that the lawsuit "was withdrawn by mutual consent and that further action is pending".[24]
stop
Given my original position, I think I am being very reasonable here with the spirit of compromise and consensus of the community. James, again appealing to consensus building. I think I understand your view and that you have gotten, based on your view, the entire section taken down. Now just two sentences remain. Indeed, it is now a "passing mention" due to your efforts. However, adding Diamond's article's name, a link to it and the tribesmen names that I have suggested here to conform to proper attribution standards, with all due respect, is not adding a "blow-by-blow " of the Jackson case. It adds the most basic reference information.
Maybe others can weigh in here? It seem to me that naming Diamond's own article, providing a link and reference to it would not only be fair, and still in recognition of James' view, but required here?
As it stands now, since the names and references are missing, it prevents or frustrates people trying to find the case, by keeping information from them.
James, is there any compromise possible for you?
Question for the community: Is deleting a publication's name and a link to it but still mentioning it, and insisting on keeping pay walled references in place, instead of a free one, proper means or remedy for undue weight? It would seem to me the the proper attribution--the name of the article, accessible references and names of people mentioned would be a basic requirement. Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 16:55, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for agreeing to the changes in the two sentences I suggested as a compromise. However, to now bring up changes in the third sentence (cutting the word "pending" from the Observer quote)opens new negotiations. I thought since you recently approved this sentence, it was not an issue, for you.
I have come very far with my side of the compromise that I feel it a good gesture on your part to let the 3rd sentence stand, as you recently approved it, so we can come to a resolution.
Please consider too: In the Observer article, Diamond himself gave weight to the law suit by mentioning it. He obviously doesn't mind having it appear in a major media publication or he would not have discussed it with the reporter.
Finally, I am sure you are right, pay wall references are allowed. My point is that when there are so many high quality references that do not have a pay wall, it is not fair to insist on only one that unfairly burdens people to pay because there is no free alternative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk • contribs) 18:15, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
To the community: Do I post these sentences now? Tiggerjay said should wait to post until things were settled? But I have heard nothing from him or another editor I wrote? Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 22:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
James, You wrote above: " Yes, the 3-sentence version seems about right. I would remove the part about pending action, but I think that's overall the correct angle." We were working together for consensus. But you went ahead and deleted "pending" without answering my questions above or discussing it with me? You also have declared by fiat that the page is complete. By doing this you have reneged on an agreement with me to allow the small additions to the first sentence(comprised of adding the New Yorker article title, reference and an free high quality link for case instead of one behind a pay wall).
Referring to the use of the word "pending," you suggest, without any references, that leaving the word pending in the text "leave[s] doubts in readers minds based on events have not occurred." Again, you have no reference for this speculation and assumption that "events have not occurred." The Observer, an authoritative source and a reference you and Mr. Roe added, did the research and it states as fact that the case is pending. If you speculate that the case is not pending you need a reference for this. You can't just cut based on your personal research or speculations. Last week you had no problem with this word pending. Then suddenly, when we came to consensus on the first sentence, you suddenly wanted to delete it and went ahead and did so without discussing it with me. The stability of achieving consensus and the page itself is undermined when the chain of building blocks constructing agreement are not respected or maintained. James I am confused, I thought Wikipedia pages were created by consensus, argument and community.
Can the the community can help here? Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 01:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I am happy to see further discussions of this point about the Observer's research of the Diamond legal case status and their use of the legal term "pending". According to legal definitions, the use of the term pending means something different than what is being discussed here. One definition is offered here at legalmatch.com: "Generally speaking, yes. If an action or lawsuit is pending, it means that the proceedings have already begun, but a final judgment has not yet been instituted. If an action is pending, and a second action is filed, the first claim may be grounds for abatement of the second claim. " See http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/pending-actions-and-abatement.html.
So given that the arguments are that the legal case does not exist, this definition of the legal term sheds a new light on what the Observer reported as a misunderstanding of the term. If you have a reference that says the suit isn't pending or does not exist then I would support dropping the Observer's stance and description. However, they did a correction of Diamond's claim that the case was "dismissed" (surly they had to be careful and look at legal papers) and after their research concluded it was "pending." We are not doing original research without references here or guessing but quoting an authoritative source, you have already, The Observer. They were declarative (emphasis mine): "This article was amended on 9 January 2013 to make it clear that the libel lawsuit against Jared Diamond filed by Daniel Wemp and Isum Mandingo was withdrawn by mutual consent and that further action is pending.
And while we are discussing this, what about what I proposed and Dr. Cantor originally agreed to ("Yes")--the need to name the title of the New Yorker article and reference and link, and providing an authoritative source such as Forbes or Associated Press, to augment the only reference there now that is behind a pay wall?
I proposed this:
In 2008, Diamond published an article, "Vengeance Is Ours: What Can Tribal Societies Tell Us About Our Need to Get Even?” in The New Yorker [add reference] , describing the role of revenge in tribal warfare in Papua New Guinea. A year later, Hup Daniel Wemp and Henep Isum Mandingo, tribesmen featured in the article, filed a lawsuit against Diamond and The New Yorker claiming the article defamed them, seeking $10 million in damages.[non pay wall reference added]. The Observer reported that the lawsuit "was withdrawn by mutual consent and that further action is pending".[24]
Hup Danile Wemp and Henep Isum Mandingo were featured in the article as tribal leaders and killers. It is misleading and underplaying to refer to them as two of the men mentioned in the article
I agree too that it's a good to include the suggested phrase about the death of their lawyer, that is confirmed by the Observer and a NY Time references, since it explains the change of venue. Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 18:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
RESPONSE to Joe Roe
Joe, Thanks for responding. I appreciate very much that you bring up specific arguments that I can respond to and seem open to discussion. Joe, your wrote, "I am not sure we can conclude from the Observer reference whether they were using 'pending' in the ordinary sense or (new to me) legal sense." In fact, The Observer was making the statement in the clear context of case pending in a correction after they messed up and made a serious error stating it was "dismissed". Think about when a "patent is pending" Everyone knows this is not a "prediction" where people are thinking about filing for a patent. Patent pending means the filers are waiting for it to be final. The Observer obviously did not think their readers would be confused by it, hence why the world's oldest newspaper published it. If the status is "pending" as reported in an authoritative reference, why not quote the authoritative source that did the research and knows how to characterize legal matters (the paper has lawyers that review corrections--especially about legal matters). Moreover, how will the case "go stale" when it is historic, and generated extensive academic and media publications in authoritative sources. Legal cases are judged as important for lots of reasons. Diamond himself mentioned the case to the Observer making it timely and certainly not private. He talked to a reporter about it in a high profile article. It's not like Diamond himself has complained about this civil suit being mentioned in his bio. He discussed being in civil suits (naming three specific cases) in his new book.
You wrote : "But if we are agreed that saying the lawyer died is sufficient, isn't that point [about "pending"} moot?" These are two different points as I read it. The first, about the lawyer dying is why the case was withdrawn. Pending is the case's status. I think both points would be important to include. The Vengeance is Ours is the abbreviated title, not "long winded" --the long sub-title is already cut ("What can tribal societies tell us about our need to get even?”) ." To have the Wikipedia entry say "Vengeance is Ours, an article in the New Yorker" is more clear so people know what article in the New Yorker. To just say "an article" when the article itself has such extensive academic and media publications in authoritative sources, seems like conscious underplaying of the reference, rather than undue emphasis.
Your point about the tribesmen being called tribesmen --"I do object to the use of the word 'tribesmen'. It's an antiquated term, from when people felt the need to automatically distinguish between 'tribesmen' and just 'men. I see no particular need to make that distinction here. They are men, they were featured in the article..."). Indigenous Papua New Guineans call themselves tribesmen. See this report by a tribesmen, Mako John Kuwimb, who is a lawyer from the area and tribe that the New Yorker article discusses. It is co-written with the world anthropology expert on the same Wola area in Papua New Guinea. They wrote, "Tribesmen fight for other reasons, notably to prevent or deter others from subjugating them." See http://www.imediaethics.org/News/170/Rebutting_jared_diamonds_savage_portrait__.php I don't object if you want to add a reference that sayussion s that using the term "tribesmen" in Papua New Guinea is "antiquated" and Diamond and tribesmen should not use it. But absent this, since tribesmen there and Diamond uses the term in the essay why are we censoring it? Diamond new book and the New Yorker article is ALL about "us" [western world law] and "them" [traditional conflict resolution and ways of living]. It is up to us to accurately report this, not correct Diamond behind the scenes without using references. Also the proposed sentence does not make clear these men who have names were featured in the New Yorker article and sued. Why not name them? Aren't they worthy? By not respectively using their names, mentioning the $10 million amount and stating "a year later" suggests that somehow they were money grubbing pests who only at the last minute thought to sue. I also think it should state a date, 2009 not "a year later" for this reason.
Finally, you wrote that my stating "tribal leaders and killers"..."is highly POV?" But these are Diamond's own words. For example in the New Yorker article Diamond stated: "Daniel referred to Isum as an uncle—and so Daniel was not permitted to kill him, or, indeed, any other Ombal clan member, by his own hand. Yet hiring killers to kill Isum was permissible. 'By killing Isum or arranging for Isum’s killing,' Daniel explained..." I am not making editorial judgements here. I thought we are reporting what is in the literature? Diamond himself says "tribesman" and tribespeople. In this case, in Diamond's new book, The World Since Yesterday, as well as in the New Yorker article that was originally supposed to be one of its chapters (according to Balter), Diamond contrasts the legal system in Papua New Guinea and how tribepeople behave legally with the how we resolve conflict in the US.
Adding that the men were tribal people is important for understanding the historical significance of the case and Diamond's personal role in civil conflicts as detailed in his new book. Tribesmen suing researchers because a famed researcher's story is globally available on the Internet, is unique and an important cautionary tale, hence why it resulted in all the literature about it. Has anyone even read Diamond's article? or Balter's article for that matter? On a university web site. http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/war/diamond-vengeance.pdf Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 22:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I see that the section now reads:
In 2008, Diamond published an article in The New Yorker, describing the role of revenge in tribal warfare in Papua New Guinea. A year later, two of the men mentioned in the article filed a lawsuit against Diamond and The New Yorker claiming the article defamed them, seeking $10 million in damages.[23] The Observer reported that the lawsuit "was withdrawn by mutual consent."[24]
A few comments:
In summary, I encourage editors to step away from the lawsuit issue and work on other parts of the article. Imagine if all the effort spent on the talk page discussion above had instead been directed at improving the quality and coverage of this article? Maybe the article could reach good article status! -- Noleander ( talk) 08:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
In the interest of compromise, let's stick to editing the three sentences and incorporate the suggested changes: drop the "pending" from the 3rd sentence and do as Joe Roe (and others) suggested use alternative language "was withdrawn by mutual consent after the sudden death of their lawyer". Also cut the subtitle, to further incorporate the group's wishes and cut the word "tribesmen" as Joe wanted. Given that Diamond himself discussed the case with the Observer on Jan 5 2013, the single brief description below surly is not undue emphasis.
Here is my new proposal offered for consensus :
Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 15:56, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
In 2008, Diamond published an article, "Vengeance Is Ours" in The New Yorker, describing the role of revenge in tribal warfare in Papua New Guinea. [Add more details about the article's content]. [Add details about reviews/perception of article]. In 2009 two indigenous people featured in the article filed a lawsuit against Diamond and The New Yorker claiming the article defamed them. The lawsuit was withdrawn by mutual consent in 2012.
Also to the community, who will add what Noleander suggests, if you agree to this consensus suggestion? In the interest of achieving consensus, I feel others should draft it. But I am happy to give feedback, if needed, on available high quality references. Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 17:31, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
This is what I proposed before Noleander's suggestion.
Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 19:53, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
1. add to second sentence. "In 2009, Hup Daniel Wemp and Henep Isum Mandingo," ...
2. end of third sentence add, as Joe Roe suggested earlier, "after the sudden death of their lawyer."
Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 20:42, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Joe Roe, do we really need a rfc? I am ready to settle for the two small changes cited above (one of which was your idea). Otherwise in a rtc, I am with Noleander's suggestions for additions and cuts as there is not enough information left from the original stable section that was cut on Dec 31 2012 (by you and James Cantor) to cover this significant topic in high quality academic and media sources about the New Yorker article and the libel lawsuit that Diamond himself talks about in Jan 2012, The Observer.
Rhonda.R.Shearer (
talk)
21:52, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 20:28, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
In 200x, Diamond published article VIO in the New Yorker. The article described acts of vengeful warfare in the XYZ region of PNG. The article described two groups M and N that waged warfare sporadically for YY years from 19xx to 19yy. Diamond wrote the article in 200x relying on interviews he conducted in the year 200x, conducted without tape recorders. The article suggested that the behavior in PNG shed light about human nature in general, and the propensity for violence in the Western world. The article was reviewed by Person A who said it was informative and instructive. Persons C and D, however, criticized the article for poor scholarship practices. In 200x, a lawsuit was filed by two of the persons Diamond mentioned in the article, claiming that the article defamed them. The lawsuit was withdrawn in 200x, according to Person C, because "of the death of the plaintiffs lawyer",
Is it acceptable to scan a photo from my copy of a book?
Probably not as it is copyrighted. Bkkeim2000 23:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
How about this photo?
HiraV ( talk) 10:19, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Can the 2009 libel lawsuit against Diamond be mentioned in the article without violating the WP:BLP policy? If so, how much detail should be included? -- Noleander ( talk) 00:05, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
In 2008, Diamond published an article in The New Yorker entitled Vengeance Is Ours. In 2009 user
User:Rhonda.R.Shearer and others investigated Diamond's research and concluded it was fraudulent and defamatory. Shearer's web site has a page on her accusations
here. Shearer's claims led two persons to sue Diamond for libel for $10 million (perhaps Shearer participated in initiating the lawsuit?). The lawsuit never reached judgement, and recently the lawsuit was dropped. A source says it was dropped because of the death of an attorney. Some editors maintain the lawsuit may be revived in the future. Shearer and other editors are attempting to insert material into the Diamond article about the lawsuit. The question is: Can the lawsuit be mentioned in the article, and if so, how much detail should be included without violating the
WP:BLP policy? --
Noleander (
talk)
00:06, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Noleander, Again, what are your sources for your reckless speculation about me. You don't know what you are talking about--"(perhaps Shearer participated in initiating the lawsuit?)" Please correct this error NOW. Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 03:07, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
If you read the legal papers, the assertion is not that Diamond is a fraud and a liar. It simply lists Diamond's facts --like that Daniel Wemp and Henep Isum are killers, responsible for 30 deaths, in a tribal fight about a pig in a garden--and says they are wrong and libelous. The lawsuit was never dismissed for lack of merit over 14 months. After their lawyer died, the suit was withdrawn (agreed upon by Diamond , New Yorker and the tribesmen) without costs. The Observer, an outstanding source, reported the most recent status. Diamond himself discusses the lawsuit in The Observer/Guardian article in Jan 2012, very much keeping the topic fresh and alive. If he himself discusses it publicly then it must be fine here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk • contribs) 02:32, 11 February 2013 (UTC) Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 02:35, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Sorry typo the Observer article was Jan 2012 Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 02:52, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
The case caused a flurry among science journals but has since fizzled out. Diamond blinks and looks pained when I mention the name Rhonda Shearer. "A distinctive person about whom I shall refrain from commenting," he mutters. Wemp and Mandigo's case was withdrawn by mutual consent after the sudden death of their lawyer but it's now understood that a new lawsuit is pending. There is no mention of the Wemp tale, although highly relevant to Diamond's thesis, in The World Until Yesterday. Caution appears to have won the day.
Noleander, The Observer article quoted Diamond talking of the lawsuit BEFORE the correction. Here is the original Observer text that you quoted incompletely, not realizing Diamond's quotes were deleted when the correction was posted.
"The case caused a flurry among science journals but has since fizzled out. Diamond blinks and looks pained when I mention the name Rhonda Shearer. "A distinctive person about whom I shall refrain from commenting," he mutters. "That was the first and only time I have been sued. I am happy to say the case was dismissed." However, there is no mention of the Wemp tale, although highly relevant to Diamond's thesis, in The World Until Yesterday. Caution appears to have won the day."
I can send you the pdf of the original article. I also have the original document with email from the Observer Ombudsmen stating that he removed these Diamond quotes. The correction was to remedy Diamond's false claims about lawsuit being dismissed. Observer Correction: "This article was amended on 9 January 2013 to make it clear that the libel lawsuit against Jared Diamond filed by Daniel Wemp and Isum Mandingo was withdrawn by mutual consent and that further action is pending."
So you can apologize now. Again, before making accusations you should ask questions since you are not that familiar with the facts here, just as Joe Roe suggests. Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 04:14, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Noleander, One fact you should consider in addition to noting that accusing a living author of factual errors is serious. New Yorker and Diamond could have demanded retractions, corrections or sued for libel? Our media ethics news web site nor I have EVER been asked for a retraction or correction or sued by the New Yorker or Diamond since we published in 2009. Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 04:31, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Noleander, --please srike out NOW> "The fact that Shearer herself, who participated in initiating the lawsuit." Also strike out your false charge you based on your error: "You are misrepresenting what the sources are saying in order to get defamatory material inserted into the article. You seem to have a personal vendetta against Diamond that started with publicizing a lawsuit and now is carrying into this WP article. --Noleander (talk)" 208.105.82.94 ( talk) 04:48, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Found the link to a screen save of the original Observer article that quotes Diamond discussing the lawsuit against him, Jan 2012. http://www.imediaethics.org/images/The_Observer_uk_Diamond_feature.png Rhonda.R.Shearer ( talk) 05:00, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
References
* The lawsuit existed and was then ceased We stick to simple facts in BLP (or ought to do so) Was he wrong to rely on anecdotes in an article? Maybe - but a New Yorker article != major scholarly publication. Dollar amunts and names of non-notable litigants are not really important, and may, in fact, violate the BLP rules about those individuals.
Collect (
talk) 11:52, 11 February 2013 (UTC) (note amended opinion below)
Collect (
talk)
14:12, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
In 2009 the lawsuit seemed like a big deal, and got a lot of coverage, but other than Diamond's use of the word "dismissed" in a recent newspaper article about his new book (and there's no way for us to determine whether it was imprecise choice of words, wishful thinking or intent to mislead, so it's really not noteworthy), this issue wouldn't be on the radar today. In an article that simply skips Diamond's (quite notable) scientific contributions, dedicating more than a sentence or two to the lawsuit seems to give it undue weight. I don't think that mention of the lawsuit violates BLP. There are plenty of 2009-vintage sources. But in an article this short, going into any depth at all about it violates WP:UNDUE. Guettarda ( talk) 13:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
FYI, I am making some (hopefully!) non-controversial edits to this article. For full disclosure, Diamond is a member of my extended family, so I see him every few years at family gatherings. As I am also a Wikipedia administrator, I understand full well the issues of COI, so if anyone has trouble with my edits, I encourage you to speak up, and I'll happily take things to the talkpage or allow others to review and/or make the edits. At the moment though, it's looking like the article is much in need of further sourcing, and I can probably help provide those sources, so I will help as I can. -- El on ka 18:15, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
The Awards section, in my opinion, is a bit long right now. Diamond has definitely won many awards, but some of the ones listed there are fairly obscure, and/or difficult or impossible to source. Would there be any objection to thinning the section out a bit, to only include the major (and/or well-sourced) awards? -- El on ka 18:34, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the major criticisms of Diamond's work as being environmentally determinist and white supremacist?
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.22.123.19 (
talk)
03:16, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
The last sentence in the section "Early life and education" reads:
I don't know if advanced degrees are described differently in England than they are in the U.S., but usually degrees from American universities are described as being in one (or perhaps two) fields of study. The phrase "on the physiology and biophysics of membranes in the gall bladder" sounds like the topic of a doctoral thesis rather than a field of study. Usually the topic of a thesis is just one specific topic within the field of study. Unless doctoral degrees are described in England simply by naming the topic of the thesis, I would be interested to know the field (or perhaps fields) of study in which the doctoral degree was earned. The topic of the doctoral thesis can be mentioned after that. CorinneSD ( talk) 16:04, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
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I'm aware that the archives include discussion about controversies, all of which have been removed from the current text except for the lawsuit.
But even with that still in the article, the average reader would go away from this article believing that Diamond's books have widespread academic acceptance, as there is no criticism of any of them in the article. A very quick search shows that that is incorrect. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
I'm also removing the section with the big quote on his views as I don't think it's encyclopedic - is it widely quoted? Or did someone simply like it? Doug Weller talk 10:38, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
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I can't find it now, but I remember hearing a summary of Upheaval that included the claim that there are four existential risks currently facing humanity and civilization:
If I heard correctly, Diamond claimed that we need to rapid progress in all four of these areas if civilization is to survive. I think a summary like this of that book would be a valuable addition to this article, assuming it's accurate.
Sadly, I don't see myself finding the time in the near future to confirm this and add it to the article. I hope someone else will. DavidMCEddy ( talk) 21:19, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Is there any reason why the first sentence uses the {{ Age}} template to give his exact age ("83")? I haven't seen this in other BLPs. Per MOS:TOPRESENT, the {{Age}} template is normally used in the Infobox (rather than the lead). Muzilon ( talk) 09:58, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Do we need to disambiguate this person from another Jared Diamond, the baseball writer for the Wall Street Journal? [1] This person does not seem to have his own page at present. Johnoandrews ( talk) 14:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
References
There have been critical reviews of Guns, Germs and Steel yet you wouldn't know it from the article. Likewise other books of his. His environmental determinism isn't discussed at all, just a see also to Environmental determinism which has an editor's description of Diamond's arguments but does have a couple of paragraphs of criticism. I don't see the words "racism" or "conquest" in the article. There's a review symposium here. [8] "Marketing conquest and the vanishing Indian: An Indigenous response to Jared Diamond’s Guns, Germs, and Steel and Collapse" is here [9] and I can provide a copy. There's a lot more. Doug Weller talk 19:46, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Have we, then, reached the point where the NPOV tag can be removed from this article (whether or not the GGS article needs one)? Jmacwiki ( talk) 19:40, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
References