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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 8, 2018. |
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I experience disquiet when I see this word. At first glance it suggests she was of English descent but born in Ireland. Which turns out to be true. However, that's only part of the story. She was born in Ireland, but had British citizenship which is why she's entitled to be known as Dame Iris. Would it not be more correct to say she was an Irish-born British writer? JackofOz 11:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
In the Francis Bacon discussion page there's been a lot of discussion about the problem of deciding how we should describe people born in Ireland but who moved to England early enough in life to make their identity ambiguous. Irish born British writer seems more appropriate than 'Dublin born' since that leaves her identity unnamed and also suggests that she was Irish in the full sense of that term. Birth and parents aside it would be more appropriate to say she is English. 194.129.67.166 ( talk) 09:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Given this I propose that she is described as an English writer and philosopher born in Dublin, Ireland. Any objections? 194.129.67.165 ( talk) 13:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
If I may quote Murdoch herself, "I'm profoundly Irish and I've been conscious of this all my life, and in a mode of being Irish which has produced a lot of very distinguished thinkers and writers." [1] So place of birth, parentage and personal opinion aside, she may be described as British. I don't think it's accurate in any sense of the word to describe her as English. She lived in England but never self-identified as English. IrishPete ( talk) 09:29, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
'She often included atypical gay characters in her fiction'
This is ambiguous...were the characters atypical gay people (ie not like the majority of gay people) or were the characters atypical by virtue of being gay (and therefore unusual in literature of that time)? I would say the latter is true but the former probably not.
I've read the AN Wilson book and I think the quotes selected are taken out of context. As a whole Wilson's book comes across as quite a loving attempt to rehabilitate a mentor he had been distressed to find was becoming simply the 'Alzheimer's lady' of popular imagination. His comments aobut her, reproduced here, were made in the spirit of raucous honesty rather than disapproval. I think this section needs to be retitled. Perhaps 'controversy' is better? At the moment it seems to say that Wilson wrote a damning exposé of someone he hated. This isn't the case at all.
Daviddariusbijan 23:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The article essentially deforms and wildly misrepresents A.N. Wilson's viewpoint on Murdoch and Bayley. As Wilson's memoir of the couple shows us throughout, he despised Bayley, but felt great affection and respect for Murdoch. Wilson clears up several misconceptions which were caused by Bayley's self-serving accounts. For one thing, Iris did badly want children. It was Bayley who did not. In their later years, and especially as Iris's dementia progressed, the couple lived in filthy and unsafe conditions in their home. It was Bayley's choice not to hire cleaners or caregivers, but there was no need for this penury. When Murdoch died, she left an estate exceeding two million pounds. (Presumably Bayley found this useful in his second marriage.) Bayley also enjoyed exercising his completely random and irrational judgment as to where they lived. Even in the years when Murdoch was in her right mind, without consulting her he would suddenly decide to sell their house and move--usually to someplace inferior.
Wilson's contempt for Bayley is scarifying and obvious. His love for Iris is equally obvious. Whoever wrote the article needs to undertake a serious rewrite which will accurately present the attitudes and information very clearly set forth in Wilson's memoir. Younggoldchip ( talk) 17:01, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
Dybryd 11:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
A.N. Wilson's biography is still not honestly dealt with in the article. The Guardian called it "mischievously revelatory"--but the article doesn't mention that the revelations were about John Bayley, and that they were not flattering. Wilson's book is valuable in that it deals with the real circumstances of Iris's later life, and her husband's actual motives and behavior, by someone who knew them both very well. Younggoldchip ( talk) 16:35, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm shocked to find that there's no discussion of her philosophical ideas at all. I'm not really competent to do it, but my inclination is to add a section that others can expand and correct. Would that be all right, or is it preferred to have nothing on the page until a thorough job can be done? Dybryd 02:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Get it started, please; I'll help out where I can. Angelicakrasia 19:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
This may not go here, but the paragraph describing her philosophy ends with a line that is very confusing: "It is the interest, for Murdoch, in St Anselm's remarks on the ontological proof, 'I believe in order to understand'." I don't know much about IM, but I have no idea what this sentence means. 129.62.119.81 ( talk) 07:16, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Is it really neccessary/appropriate to add the street address of her birth home? Seems to be more potentially harmful than informative.
This article has been reverted by a bot to this version as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) This has been done to remove User:Accotink2's contributions as they have a history of extensive copyright violation and so it is assumed that all of their major contributions are copyright violations. Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. VWBot ( talk) 05:27, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I've been tidying up the references here lately. One was a reference in the Secondary Literature to a search on Iris Murdoch's name in PhilPapers. The link went from the title "journals" in the SL list to a URL to the search, in the Reference list. This was confusing. Also, the terms were entered in such a way that it was being parsed as Iris OR Murdoch instead of "Iris Murdoch". I've corrected the search and moved the link to External Links. However, I'm not sure it should be there at all. If PhilPapers, why not Google Scholar? (etc etc) Is there a rule or convention about including links like that? HazelAB ( talk) 17:51, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
The page claims she went up to Cambridge for philosophy in 1947 (the year Wittgenstein left) but never heard Wittgenstein lecture. The Cambridge Wittgenstein Archive [1] lists her as one of his students. I can't see the subscripton-only bio reference to check how confident it is that she never heard him lecture. Can you? ThisIsMattRose ( talk) 15:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
References
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@ SageGreenRider:, I noticed that you added some material, mostly a direct quotation, from Bayley's Economist obituary to the article. Since you've quoted the two sentences already in the citation and they appear in the reference list with a link to the Economist obit online, they're redundant in the article, so I've taken them out. HazelAB ( talk) 14:24, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
The Biographies and Memoirs section now contains this sentence: "In a BBC Radio 4 discussion of Murdoch and her work in 2009, Wilson agreed with Bidisha's view that Murdoch's philosophical output consisted of nothing but "GCSE-style" essays on Plato". This content originated with an edit on 24 February 2010 that said something rather different: "Elsewhere, Wilson has passed judgement on Murdoch's philosophical achievement, assenting in a Radio 4 appreciation of Iris Murdoch (Archive on Four: An Unofficial Iris, 28/06/09) to the view that Iris Murdoch’s philosophical output consisted of nothing but “G.C.S.E. style” essays on Plato." There's no mention there of whose view Wilson was assenting to. Bidisha only gets mentioned in this edit on 6 October 2010: "In a BBC Radio 4 discussion of Murdoch and her work in 2009, Wilson assented to Bidisha's view that Murdoch's philosophical output consisted of nothing but “GCSE-style” essays on Plato". The reference in both cases is to this radio program which Bidisha hosted. The program is "not currently available" so as far as I know it's not possible to tell whose "view" Wilson was "assenting to" - my hunch is, not Bidisha's. Today's edit - to "Wilson agreed with Bidisha's view" - is a stylistic improvement but arguably moves the sense even farther from whatever it was to begin with. HazelAB ( talk) 01:20, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
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Setting myself the moral task of re-conceiving Iris Murdoch's stated (and mis-stated) opinions about the Irish/being Irish, as suggested in her book The Sovereignty of Good (see article), I have become reconciled to two competing images of her, that she was a bigot (which she probably wasn't) and that whoever misrepresents her views on Ireland in this article (which contains selected quotations and knee jerk antipathy for the IRA...think about it) probably thinks they are stating facts and representing Dame Iris. -Hmm,...they aren't.
If the sound of Irish voices made her ill (see article); an incomplete and so misleading quote presented here, you have to question what in fact it was that so resonated with her, a rejection of her origins, a rejection of poverty, a rejection of a place which suffered due to the advantages people of her class enjoyed? Was it guilt or ignorance or a bit of both? As Ireland ecloses (sic) from its long Hibernation, these sensitivities can hopefully be laid to rest. To see the bogus myth of Protestantism (or anything else) as the creative wellspring of Literature (or anything else) is bogus and unworthy of recall ...unless of course you believe it to be true.
-In which case, do by all means leave the incomplete quote stand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.125.39.152 ( talk) 09:52, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
This article reads very well and clearly, from the comments above, reflects much thought about and expertise on the subject. But much of the content lacks citations. The first two paragraphs under; "Fiction" for example, has much detail but only a single citation which in fact only refers to a book (the Conradi biography) rather than providing supporting evidence for the information at the article. In addition, evident in the same; "Fiction" section, much of the article is written subjectively. It is fine to include the subjective opinions of literary critics, and indeed others, but such inclusions need attributution and citation. The risk with this article is that it looks authoritative yet much of the content is unsupported and unverified. I do not think it would be quite right to take out the unreferenced material at this point, but the article does require a 'more citations needed' flag to help improve it. Some material then might be best removed if no editors have identified citations which support the content. I have added the flag. All the best, Emmentalist ( talk) 07:59, 4 May 2023 (UTC)