This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Indo-Roman trade relations article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Indo-Roman trade relations has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
June 22, 2007. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that
Roman trade with India was so large as to drain gold resources from
Rome and involved the despatch of 120 ships every year? | |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
My two cents, If this section is renamed "Ports" and is divided two sub-sections "Roman ports" and "Indian ports" it would add to the overall content of the article.
Also, a section dealing with the decline of trade may do the same as well. Havelock the Dane 17:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
There are still some sentences and paragraphs missing inline citations. I am sure when the GA reviewer comes around, it will be one of the items raised.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of September 23, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
Customarily when an article does not obviously violate any of the quick-fail GA criteria, a hold period is applied to fix any minor problems. However, this hold should not be given if, in estimation, it would take longer than the maximum of seven days to complete the necessary changes. As the issues above, especially in desired expansion, are not minor and would exceed that time limit, I have failed the article.
When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a Good article reassessment. Thank you for your work so far. — VanTucky Talk 22:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I have performed the following tasks in order to address the concerns mentioned above:
With Regards,
Havelok
11:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
As you have clearly addressed all the concerns of the previous review, I am happy to promote this article to GA-status. Good work! VanTucky Talk 21:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I am interested in this topic, and was delighted to discover that this article and the map exists. Thank you to all concerned. I don't care if it doesn't meet the Good Article criteria; it answers my questions. wikibiohistory 07:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
This article has become confusing. The source quoted the most, a page from Ian Shaw's book, The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, "is attempting to chronicle the history of Egypt from prehistory until 311 BC." (Quote is from Amazon.com review). The time frame in the article seems wrong. Could someone clear up my confusion? Thanks, – Mattisse ( Talk) 17:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with this page from Roman trade with India to Roman trade with modern India as the new name makes no sense in the article. Modern India did not exist until approximately 1950 when India became a republic. I request that the article name be changed back to its original name. – Mattisse ( Talk) 19:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I am of the same opinion as Matisse. The title should be returned to Roman trade with India. Romans never traded with "Modern India"... PHG ( talk) 20:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
The lede is supposed to be a summary of the entire article per WP:MOS. Nothing is supposed to be mentioned in the lede that is not elaborated more fully in the article. Currently the lede no longer fulfills the function of a lede. Pehaps this article should be broken into an a article on Tamil country and leave the current article for the larger topic of Roman trade with India as a whole. – Mattisse ( Talk) 13:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Here's a example of a two-masted Indian ship on lead coin of Vasisthiputra Sri Pulamavi, testimony to the seafaring and trading capabilities of the Satavahanas during the 1st-2nd century CE. Feel free to insert it in the article. PHG ( talk) 15:09, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I began an article on Indo-Roman relations recently because it was listed on the WikiProject Indian History page: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Indian_history) as an "Open Task". It is still an uncompleted article which I should expand.
Unfortunately, I was not aware until today that there is already this substantial article on Roman trade with India and there is, not surprisingly, a great deal of overlap - particularly as little is known about Indo-Roman relations other than what can be deduced from the trade plus a few short references in Roman and India literature. I cannot see how one can write an article about Indo-Roman relations without a detailed study of the trade.
I propose combining the information in both articles into a new article headed "Indo-Roman trade and relations". I would very much appreciate any comments or suggestions from other editors. Many thanks, John Hill ( talk) 08:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an ancient roman rock inscription on the north shore of Australia. A roman ship from Red Sea, bound for India, was swept away for the convoy and ended up down under, where they perished on the un-inhabitable north shore, but only after leaving a message on the cliff. 87.97.96.24 ( talk) 21:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I have just moved the previous article "Roman trade with India" to this new heading of "Indo-Roman trade and relations" to begin the process of merging the two articles, "Indo-Roman relations" and "Roman trade with India." This process has been discussed previously on this page. I will now start moving material from "Indo-Roman relations" while avoiding duplication as best I can. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks, John Hill ( talk) 21:53, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I have just been looking ovder this article with a view to merging (see note above) and find it has a number of very questionable unreferenced assertions (eg. Rome learned abougt the trade with India from Axum when, in fact, the Ptolemies were doing it before the Romans arrived on the scene and so were the Arabs from the east coast of the Red Sea). In spite of glaring problems such as this, it was previously awarded a "Good Article" status. I don't know how to remove this status rating and I also don't have time to handle this and also do a decent job of merging the information from each article - as I leave on a long overseas trip this Wednesday. When I started doing the merging I thought it would take me just a few hours, but I can see now that it is going to be a really big job to combine the two articles and reference them properly. Is there anyone out there who could please help? If not, please be very patient and I will try to get back to it when I return in November. Many thanks, John Hill ( talk) 11:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I would put in this article a draft about the important argument of the commerce of animals. I am not english speaker so I would have an help about the language form.
The remains of Roman villas with mosaics and frescoes depicting the capture of exotic animals from India and from other parts are well represented. Probably one of the sources of richness of the owners of
villa del Casale was the trade in exotic animals.
Elephants of greek King Pyrrhus of Epirus used in the war campaign against romans (280-279 BCE) in italian peninsula were Indians.
The italian wikipedia article of villa del casale has more information about the hunt section. Mosaic with tiger in indian or indochina forest is into the ruins of
Villa del Tellaro. It is only an example.
In Ambulacro della Grande Caccia, there is a scene that shows the technique to distract the mother tiger to take the puppies tigers using a shimmering ball of glass or mirror. It this mosaic there are also Indian Elephants and Indian Peafowl. There are also other esotic animal from black and south Africa and Indochina. And it is also possible distinguish between the graeco-Romans and the Indians that assist them to take the Indian animals. It is also represented in the hunt of tiger with red ribbons. Lot of Tigers as the Asian and African Lion were used in the arenas or in the circuses. At the time of building of villa, the European lion was already extinct (the last lived in the Balkan Peninsula were killed in arenas hunting).
About the mirrors and the glass they were also important items in the trade with China and India as the silk from China. The Romans probably continuously sent emissaries to steal the secret of silk production that was well guarded. With Emperor Justinian "secret agents" risking their lives managed to bring the "industrial" secret in the West in a stick. (As today industrial espionage). It would be interesting if there are remains of Roman manifactures for example gold, glass and mirrors in India. In China I know that exist numerous examples.
Other thing my city has founded a part of her medieval and fantastic renaissance richness on the
piperaceae and spices trade with India via Alexandria.
-- Andriolo ( talk) 13:30, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
PS About Navigation compared to the Mediterranean and Black Seas (irregular wind) and the Atlantic Ocean (often with stormy), navigation in the Indian Ocean is very regular and easy. The animals were closed in cages and loaded on ships that arrived until Egyptian Red Sea harbours but it is reasonable to think that they arrived directly into Mediterranean in Alexandria throug de Ancient "suez" canal that at the time was open. -- Andriolo ( talk) 14:28, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
_____________________________________
I have put a little chapitre on animals trade. If anyone can help me improve the language form of my chapter on animals I will be happy. I have quickly and simply described the mosaic, using the museum guide in the Italian internet site. Section: "Ambulacro della Grande Caccia"
Unfortunately in Italy the things are often approximate indeed the English translation of the site does not work.... help us....still need to remove the roman lead pipes .... ;-)
-- Andriolo ( talk) 23:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
The decline in trade saw the ancient Tamil country turn to Southeast Asia for international trade, where it influenced the native culture to a greater degree than the impressions made on Rome.[22]
The use of monsoon winds, which enabled a voyage safer than the long and dangerous coastal voyage, was pioneered by the seafaring Axumite kingdom and subsequently learned of by the Romans, who in any event had cordial relations with Axum and used Axum carriers in many cases.[citation needed]
We must avoid the close decks. The things are more complicated. Not only Axum, but also from the near Greeks (with the first studies of the monsoon winds see Arrian) and Mesopotamia. I remember the navarch Nearchos with greek-persian (hellenistic) fleet in India ocean during Alexander campaign. The Greeks learn obviously from Persian Empire and Egypt about Indian Ocean and surely also from Axum. I have collaborated to translate for job a Roman d'Alexandre in its there is a tale about Candace.
But a thing as today in the Roman Empire the state didn’t have the principal trade initiative. The rich families with private ships and fleet had the trade initiative. Cosmopolitan families (not only Romans of Rome but from numerous Mediterranean cities and probably not only) and ethnic groups as the Hebrew or Phoenicians were interested on trade. It could be that an Roman family of Sicily collaborated with a Hebrew or Egyptian merchants in India (maybe all roman citizen). These non financial companies were common in Roman Empire. And these families or lobbies often financed a colonisation war in continental Europe for political advantages.
In Italy we are discussing because the Hellenistic-Roman world did not develop the industrial revolution and the financial system. And we debate about the role of the religion, of the slavery, and about the lack of democracy after Augustus and about the influence of aristocratic political lobbies in the Senate. And why these factors prevented the industrial jump. The favorable factors were free market economy, the mercantilist mindset and technology. But the free market of the Republic period became oligopoly market in the Empire, and the oligopoly stopped the development, the equitable distribution of richness and the consumer society. With the Empire this consumer society were limited only a few million persons with too much and more more numerous slaves and poors. The archaeologists, where I live, find houses with modern conveniences such as running water, taps, pumps, underfloor heating and summer cooling systems with cold water. There are aqueducts and bridges that are still in use today. Arch dams and differentiated concretes some of these concretes can be used in submarine built for harbours.. There were also the cities specialized for bath and sea turism as today. The incomparable level of statuary often copied with multi-axes copy machine as in Italian Renaissance, agrimensory and centuration system. In that era there was with no doubt an advanced pre-industrial technology and the question is only one why this civilisation is emploded ? The commerce in large-scale with China or India ot other parts with this tecnology is obvious.
This civilization was much broader than the Roman Empire and also included the Partian-Persian empire and Greek-Bactrian kingdoms, western India, Meroe, Axum and south India and Ceylon (the last two influenced) each with its own local characteristics. (The Greek language was used as English). A scholar who lived in Eboracum (York) in Great Britain island could speak to a scholar who lived in the Western India (example in Taxila) or in Central Asia (Alexandria on the Oxus) with a common language. It is fantastic. Only today is possible this thing. But often the cyclical wars between Partia and after Sassanide Empire against Romans often impeded the commerce and the relations.
Substantially I want to tell that we cannot write on the Roman-Hellenistic-India trade as suspicious uncertain tribes trade but as a whole.