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Time to remove "controversy" from article title

Not really a "controversy" anymore, now that government prosecutors plan to use the laptop contents as evidence. Magnolia677 ( talk) 22:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC) reply

From the source you presented: The laptop has become a symbol of the legal and political controversy surrounding the president's son in recent years. So, why should we remove "controversy" from the article title? –  Muboshgu ( talk) 22:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC) reply
What is "controversial"? If you read the article, it's pretty obvious "suppression" or "cover-up" would be more appropriate. Magnolia677 ( talk) 22:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC) reply
It will be interesting to see what they produce. "Contents?" a laptop? We don't know. SPECIFICO talk 23:20, 24 May 2024 (UTC) reply
I recommend you not edit war and self-revert the reinsertion of Weiss's quote. It comes from a court filing and has not been accepted by the judge. It is not the position of the US government, just Weiss. Federal Judge Maryellen Noreika, who is presiding over the case, hasn't said when she'll rule on these pretrial motions about expert witnesses and how the laptop can be discussed in front of the jury. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 23:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC) reply
A special counsel does not speak for the American government as if he is the Attorney General. let's not engage in farcical hyperbole. Zaathras ( talk) 23:41, 24 May 2024 (UTC) reply
HAHAHA! soibangla ( talk) 00:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Where does the prosecutor say it's "Not really a controversy anymore"? I can't find it. DN ( talk) 02:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC) reply

I would support removing "controversy" from the title. The prominant coverage and NOTABILITY of it is due solely to partisan narratives and RS investigation and reporting about said narratives. What is the crux of any "controversy?" Controversy is like Second Amendment rights, Abortion law, Climate policy, even Cinton/Lewinsky. The laptop, ivermectin, the Mar A Lago assassination attempt, Seth Rich tales, etc are not controversies. SPECIFICO talk 17:58, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Scandal is the best word to use. Both because the contents of the laptop documents illegal activity from a Presidential candidate's son (drug use, use of prostitution, etc) and 51 former Intel official signed a letter to erroneously suggesting the laptop was Russian disinformation to influence the upcoming election. LemonPumpkin ( talk) 22:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC) reply

All the world is a scandal.
Scandal is in the eye of the beholder.
SPECIFICO talk 02:24, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
That's a disingenuous, unconstructive response. Scandal can mean "a disgraceful or discreditable action, circumstance, etc.; an offense caused by a fault or misdeed; or damage to reputation; public disgrace." A controversy is "a prolonged public dispute, debate, or contention; disputation concerning a matter of opinion; or a contention, strife, or argument." It's now incontrovertible, through a court of law, that a good deal of the laptop's content is indeed real and that it documents illegal behavior. There's no longer debate on this specific fact. As such, the article title must conform to the proper English term. LemonPumpkin ( talk) 14:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
The current title, would be best. GoodDay ( talk) 14:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Would you care to explain your opinion of not conforming to the standard English definition? It's unconstructive to flippantly state your opinion without rationale. LemonPumpkin ( talk) 06:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC) reply
LemonPumpkin, "no longer debate" is irrelevant. This article documents the debate/controversy, including why it occurred and any later resolution. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 17:13, 17 June 2024 (UTC) reply

The current title is fine. This article documents the debate/controversy, including why it occurred and any later resolution. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 17:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC) reply

This article is incredibly vague and is written in a way that obscures what this incident is about.

First line: "a controversy arose involving data from a laptop that belonged to Hunter Biden". Okay, so we have definitively stated that the laptop did belong to Hunter. So what exactly was this controversy about? Hmm, well we have this line:

Later assertions by Twitter owner Elon Musk and others that the government had ordered the company to suppress the Post story to favor Joe Biden in the weeks leading to the election were not supported by a Twitter Files examination authorized by Musk.

Wait, so did the government not order that? Or did the company (Twitter) not suppress the story? (Also, is this even unequivocally true?) Let's continue:

In December 2019, under the authority of a subpoena issued by a Wilmington grand jury, the FBI seized the laptop from Mac Isaac.

I see, the FBI seized the laptop 10 months before this "controversy arose".

PolitiFact wrote in June 2021 that, while "over time, there has been less doubt that the laptop did in fact belong to Hunter Biden", the laptop "was real in the sense that it exists, but it didn't prove much", as "[n]othing from the laptop has revealed illegal or unethical behavior by Joe Biden as vice president with regard to his son's tenure as a director for Burisma".

Less doubt? So there was doubt to begin with? Is that maybe what the controversy was about? That people doubted it? Were any actions taken by companies, institutions, agencies, etc, because of this doubt? Were any accusations levied against the story? Did anyone dub it "Russian disinformation"? How about "dozens of intel officials" (even though the FBI had seized the laptop 10 months earlier).

Did the controversy have anything to do with the fact that Twitter and Facebook suppressed the Post story with unprecedented measures like banning users who posted a link to the story? Perhaps the controversy has to do with the fact that the mainstream media (and the intelligence community) openly accused this story of being Russian disinformation, despite, as Vox reported (mentioned later) 'no evidence had ever emerged "that the laptop's leak was a Russian plot"'. Had ever emerged. Maybe that should go in the introduction, and be written in clear and direct language. Sysiphis ( talk) 02:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply

The controversy is that the opponents of the Bidens alleged the laptops were a vast and important smoking gun that would "totally prove" (to use their favorite verbiage) everything from Burisma to Shokin was a big ball of corruption masterminded by Joe himself. While the physical laptops may have once belonged to the younger Biden, the contents therein were tainted by unclean hands, particularly Giuliani's. Zaathras ( talk) 03:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply
What exactly are you saying? So Twitter/Facebook censoring the Post's reporting, the accusations from the media, the Biden campaign (and, inexplicably, the intelligence community) that this was Russian disinformation, none of that is part of the controversy? Because that's all in the article, just scattered grudging admissions. I'm saying these facts shouldn't be treated as ancillary background trivia, and instead should be brought into the introductory overview. Also, "may have belonged"? "The contents therein were tainted by unclean hands"? Who are you to make this judgement? The laptop has been authenticated a million times over and is now being used as evidence in Hunter Biden's trial. Giuliani is not the prosecutor. Sysiphis ( talk) 03:33, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply
The laptop has been authenticated a million times over... This is a mischaracterization commonly made by people with only a surface-level understanding of the topic. The physical laptops and the hard drive contents are two entirely separate issues. See the link to the news article provided one level above, at Talk:Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy#interesting_twist. Zaathras ( talk) 03:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Interesting link. Let's check out that article:
Lowell sought earlier Wednesday to cast doubt on the authenticity of personal messages allegedly from Hunter Biden's personal devices. Under questioning from Lowell, FBI special agent Erika Jensen said she could not verify the contents of Hunter Biden's laptop admitted into evidence were not tampered with before law enforcement collected it from the Mac repair shop
Yeah, even with a surface-level understanding of the topic we can see that a) this was prompted by carefully crafted questioning from the defense counsel (can you think of a more biased source? Maybe only his grandma), and b) it is logically not possible to prove a negative.
And what are you even talking about? Please pay attention. It's stunningly dishonest to claim that the suppression of the story and the baseless accusations of Russian disinformation not only from the media but also the intelligence community who were already in possession of the laptop for 10 months before the story in the Post was published is somehow now part of this controversy. Sysiphis ( talk) 04:17, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply

baseless accusations of Russian disinformation not only from the media but also the intelligence community who were already in possession of the laptop

the memo was from 51 former IC officials who had no access to the laptop but wrote:

We want to emphasize that we do not know if the emails, provided to the New York Post by President Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, are genuine or not and that we do not have evidence of Russian involvement -- just that our experience makes us deeply suspicious that the Russian government played a significant role in this case.

they did not lie, as they are commonly accused. only the FBI had the laptop, and until today they said nothing about it. and Taibbi found no evidence of government suppression of the story, despite the Twitter Files hype soibangla ( talk) 05:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Based on your statement then, I think the summary should have something to the effect of:
The mainstream media and intelligence community strongly suggested, based on admittedly no evidence, that the story of the laptop was Russian disinformation. This prompted Twitter and Facebook to censor the story and take measures such as blocking links to the story. Twitter banned the New York Post's account 16 days, reinstating it one week before the election. No evidence ever emerged to support the theory of Russian disinformation.
Also, several sections later in the article we have this:
Natasha Bertrand of Politico wrote a story about the letter, with the headline, "Hunter Biden story is Russian disinfo, dozens of former intel officials say."
According to you, that headline is completely false. Maybe something should be added to let the reader know that? Ctrl-f the word "false" and you will see that it is used to refer to:
  • false allegations against Joe Biden
  • false claims made by Donald Trump
  • false claims made by conservative media
  • false claims made by Tucker Carlson
  • false claims about Hunter Biden
Would you agree that this statement by Natasha Bertrand, which is false, and which, as it is later suggested, "likely shaped perceptions of the letter that continue to this day", also deserves the clarification that it is false? Currently, the reader is immediately treated to apologetics instead. And this as well probably deserves a mention in the intro. Sysiphis ( talk) 16:40, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply
"Perhaps the controversy has to do with the fact that the mainstream media (and the intelligence community) openly accused this story of being Russian disinformation, despite, as Vox reported (mentioned later) 'no evidence had ever emerged "that the laptop's leak was a Russian plot"'.
If I recall correctly, there may have been discussions similar to this one in the archives. It's possible the lead currently doesn't mention Russian dis-info assertions due to previous discussions.
However, it's unclear how this shines light on any discrepancy.
"I'm saying these facts shouldn't be treated as ancillary background trivia, and instead should be brought into the introductory overview. Also, "may have belonged"? "The contents therein were tainted by unclean hands"? Who are you to make this judgement?"
Editors are allowed to have opinions on the talk-page if they choose, but the overview is bound by things like WP:LEAD, WP:WEIGHT and WP:BLP which dictate to some degree what is in the lead.
The current lead puts focus on the original catalyst for the controversy, ie "laptop data allegedly containing evidence of illegal or unethical behavior by Joe Biden". The lead does not focus on any alleged cover-up by IC or the media, or claims about Russian dis-info because there have been discussions and WP:CON in regard to how best to adhere to policy and avoid things like WP:SYNTH.
I think I still have my T-shirt from the last RfC.
How is this different from picking out certain statements or facts to create a new context or narrative on the "controversy" other than what is already predicated by the timeline of events, which seems to ignore parts of RS that already explicitly dispute what the "controversy" was about and when it started? Cheers. DN ( talk) 20:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Ahh I see the same players are still spinning narratives to prevent this article from stating simple truths.
cut all the nonsense language that’s attempt to equivocate and compromise because editors couldn’t accept that Hunter Biden owned a laptop and forgot it
anyway, look forward to perplexity taking over as it’s clear this place will never change. Same useless gatekeepers perpetuating half truths and hiding behind “but actually…” Slywriter ( talk) 01:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
"Same useless gatekeepers perpetuating half truths and hiding behind “but actually…
Is that the same as hiding behind veiled personal attacks and accusations? DN ( talk) 20:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
It’s not very veiled and seems quite general. Yet another set of editors are being discouraged from getting this page to reflect semblance of truth. Instead it is a shrine to a misinformation campaign launched by former intelligence agents. any evidence the signers of that letter has any evidence that their was a Russian plot? Did several mainstream media organizations of general reliability promote a false story by amping up the letter without doing any verification of their own and also downplaying the laptop that Hunter Biden dropped off? Did social media companies overreact to an accurate story of Hunter Biden forgetting his laptop with his data on it by blocking the story? Could Russian agents have independently hacked the iCloud or Gmail or any other laptop or hard drive of his and not be talking about this laptop and therefore any attempt to connect the two is WP:SYNTH? The answer to those questions is clear. And this article still pretend they are not Slywriter ( talk) 03:14, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
a misinformation campaign launched by former intelligence agents suggests to me that you are listening to disreputable sources, which is why "gatekeepers" say "but actually..." soibangla ( talk) 03:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Your deflection is noted as a non-answer. good job there focusing on one of seven points and thinking you have a victory. You don’t. So address all the questions especially what evidence do reliable sources have that the letter was based on any real evidence? Slywriter ( talk) 11:49, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Slywriter, remember that time you confidently hauled me to AE because you alleged I had brazenly violated consensus here, but in reality you misinterpreted what I actually did, and I noted "but actually..." and the matter was promptly dropped? "but actually..." is vital in a highly contentious environment in which some get their "facts" from sources that lie soibangla ( talk) 00:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Hunter Biden walked into a computer store to get a laptop repaired and forgot it is fact.
Any editor who disputes that statement and continues to encourage the tortured lead and other obscuring of fact in this article should not be editing.
That the same characters are
still here making sure this article remains convoluted and obscuring the facts to perpetuate some left wing fantasy that a Russian agent dropped off the laptop is pathetic. Slywriter ( talk) 01:07, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
what we know is that Hunter once owned the laptop and it was in his possession for some time
but the chain of custody between his possession and its appearance in the repair shop of a legally blind man remains unclear, but no one has said it was dropped off by a "Russian agent." Bannon said on Dutch TV months earlier that he had the Hunter hard drive. how did he get it? what did he and Rudy, who was also in the chain of custody, do with it? it would not be difficult to remove the drive, alter it, put it back in the laptop and plant it. this is likely, almost certainly, a common technique of modern espionage. there remain many unknowns, including this week's twist that the FBI did not verify that the laptop contents had not been altered prior them taking possession. that is why editors paying close attention are reasonable to say "but actually..." no one, anywhere, comprehensively scrutinizes all this information as it arises better than we do. this is what Wikipedia excels at. soibangla ( talk) 02:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
There’s the “but actually” where the entire world but Wikipedia editors know a fact is a fact and only because of torturous debates must we use “legally blind” three times to protect Hunter Biden from the fact that he dropped off a laptop and forgot it. WaPo and 40 Intellignece agents lie but hey it was printed in WaPo so it can be used but the fact Hunter Biden dropped off his laptop at a store near his residence of the time … nope that’s crazy. Give me a break. Slywriter ( talk) 02:20, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Even the NYT says he dropped it off.
[1] Slywriter ( talk) 02:31, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
maybe some editors should stop whinging on Talk about how it's all so unfair, and edit the article
this has gone on for years soibangla ( talk) 03:45, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I've been thinking this all along, but I didn't want to get sucked into the shitshow.;-) Carlstak ( talk) 03:50, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
It can’t be fixed when a Cabal sits on top of it guarding zealously the false narrative presented Slywriter ( talk) 11:50, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I agree. The lead is overlong, stuffed with trivia seemingly only to muddy the core story, constantly primes the reader to reject any idea of Big Tech/Democrat/Biden/intelligence community malfeasance, downplays the significance of data, practically insists the whole thing is a giant nothingburger. It's honestly one of the most gamed introductions I have ever read.
At least three entire paragraphs (roughly 60% of the intro), are devoted to excruciating detail of chain of custody and authentication (or impossibility thereof) of this laptop and/or its data, making sure that the only thing the reader knows is that they know nothing. Meanwhile, it's not until the last line that we hear about the Russian disinformation aspect at all By March 2022, no evidence had publicly surfaced to support suspicions that the laptop was part of a Russian disinformation scheme. Wait what? Why are we talking about potential Russian schemes? Were people saying that at the time?
And this line Later assertions by Twitter owner Elon Musk and others that the government had ordered the company to suppress the Post story to favor Joe Biden in the weeks leading to the election were not supported by a Twitter Files examination authorized by Musk. - makes absolutely no sense given that nothing is even mentioned about Twitter's suppression of the story in the first place.
My favorite line is probably this: The drive analyzed for The Washington Post lacked a clear chain of custody, and was considered "a mess" and "a disaster" from a forensic standpoint by the two analysts. It contains emails marked to and from Hunter Biden and other digital files relating to him. ORLY? Sysiphis ( talk) 02:44, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
"downplays the significance of data?"
it's larded with forensic analysis soibangla ( talk) 03:40, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
That is used to obscure the truth and convolut the truth so readers learn nothing. Great job maintaining the readers first!!! Slywriter ( talk) 11:52, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I can only assume based on your response that the other nonsensical stuff is fine in your opinion. Sysiphis ( talk) 13:12, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
How is this different from picking out certain statements or facts to create a new context or narrative on the "controversy" other than what is already predicated by the timeline of events
The timeline as told in the summary has glaring omissions. And as I stated, I am not doing my own synthesis, I am using what is already in the article and commenting that the placement of various facts about significant events, i.e, Twitter and Facebook censoring the story and even banning the news outlet's account weeks before an election, i.e, an influential member of the media literally claiming (without evidence) that this was Russian disinformation. By the way, Joe Biden himself claims this in the debate with Trump, and is sometimes not very carefully worded:
Look, there are 50 former national intelligence folks who said that what he’s accusing me of is a Russian plan. They have said that this has all the characteristics — four, five former heads of the CIA, both parties, say what he’s saying is a bunch of garbage.
Is that in the article? I couldn't find it, but as a statement coming out of the Joe Biden's mouth regarding the laptop or data from it, it seems a pretty glaring omission. It should be stated unequivocally that there is NO EVIDENCE that either the release of the laptop or the data found on it was part of a Russian disinformation campaign. It's a conspiracy theory in the most literal sense, and Facebook and Twitter took extraordinary steps to censor the story as a result. Sysiphis ( talk) 01:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Things like Facebook and Twitter took extraordinary steps to censor the story are MAGA talking points, and pretty much invalidate anything else you have to say on the matter. Nothing will be changed in the article on the basis of wild "CENSOR!!!" claims. Zaathras ( talk) 02:16, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
The NYP article was literally censored. What are you talking about? Amthisguy ( talk) 17:51, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
"censored" by whom? [2] soibangla ( talk) 18:09, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
By Twitter and Facebook. Here is a BBC article, titled "Zuckerberg tells Rogan FBI warning prompted Biden laptop story censorship", that is used as a source in this article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62688532
It has been called censorship for years, by many sources. What would you call it if not censorship? Sysiphis ( talk) 18:49, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Smug, partisan dismissals do not qualify as arguments. This was censorship. But I can compromise. Would using "Twitter/Facebook blocked access to the story" make you feel better? Sysiphis ( talk) 18:55, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
You can save yourself these kerfuffles by not using the questionable words used to frame reporting, words from unreliable sources like Fox News, Taibbi, WSJ, etc. Their wordings are framings designed to incite suspicion and distrust of the opposition, government, intelligence agencies, and reliable sources. Use the wordings that frame what's written in reliable sources. We don't usually object to them. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 19:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I have not one time cited Fox News, Taibbi, or WSJ. I've only cited sources and language already used in the article. Usually direct quotes. This must be a fluke. Sysiphis ( talk) 20:05, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
It has been called censorship for years, by many sources
reliable sources? or ... Jim Jordan? on Hannity? soibangla ( talk) 20:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Nice quote. Did you read the sentence directly before it?
Here is a BBC article, titled "Zuckerberg tells Rogan FBI warning prompted Biden laptop story censorship", that is used as a source in this article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62688532 It has been called censorship for years, by many sources.
I hope this helps you understand. Sysiphis ( talk) 20:49, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
so you found one, which quotes Zuck. impressive. I am owned. soibangla ( talk) 20:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I'm not out to "own" you, but yeah, I guess I have left you unable to respond except with smug dismissals. Now is your chance to show some humility and concede that it has indeed been called "censorship", and not just by some "MAGA" boogeymen. And as I said, if that word is just too damaging, I will settle for something like this:
Twitter and Facebook took what the Washington Post called "unusual steps" to limit the readership of the New York Post article. Twitter blocked links to the story from October 14th to October 16th and locked the New York Post's account from October 14th to October 30th. Facebook, prompted by an FBI warning on misinformation, restricted the article's spread.
Here's an additional source.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/15/facebook-twitter-hunter-biden/
These actions were taken just hours after the story was published, so if we're talking about timeline, this sentence should be put before we get to the part about "later forensic analysis authenticated" or "later assertions by Elon Musk". Sysiphis ( talk) 21:26, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
still don't see censor* except by the usual suspects. consider that another smug dismissal. soibangla ( talk) 21:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
You don't see the word "censorship" in "Zuckerberg tells Rogan FBI warning prompted Biden laptop story censorship" ?? Really? Sysiphis ( talk) 21:58, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I just addressed that: one RS quotes what one man said. and that's all you got. that is not called censorship for years, by many sources, as you continue to insist. it is weak. soibangla ( talk) 22:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
The additional context of "The moves prompted an outcry from Trump, Republicans and right-leaning publications, which repeated claims of politically motivated censorship by Silicon Valley giants." seems more appropriate. DN ( talk) 22:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
The source not only quotes Zuckerberg using the term, but also the author of the article characterizes it as such.
Facebook and Twitter restricted sharing of the article, before reversing course amid allegations of censorship. ... In that context, the New York Post story, based on exclusive data no other news agency had access to, was met with scepticism - and censored by social media outlets. ... "Depending on what side of the political spectrum [you're on], you either think we didn't censor it enough or we censored it way too much."
I'm not sure what could more definitively resolve whether or not what Facebook did was "censorship" than the guy in charge of the company saying it was. But hey, I have given you several alternatives I would settle for. How about "suppression" ?
Former Twitter executives acknowledged to lawmakers Wednesday that the social media company erred when it temporarily suppressed a New York Post story regarding Hunter Biden’s laptop in October 2020
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/08/politics/twitter-hearing-house-oversight/index.html Sysiphis ( talk) 22:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
"amid allegations of censorship"
and
"In that context"
what was that context?
"Critically, it fed into long-running unproven allegations about corruption on Joe Biden's part to ensure his son's business success in Ukraine"
the BBC piece does not affirm censorship and there is still no called censorship for years, by many sources soibangla ( talk) 22:58, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Censoring "censorship" makes you a meta-censor. Just like Facebook. Get it? Meta?
So how do you feel about the word "suppression"? Sysiphis ( talk) 23:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
"meta"
funny. very funny.
"suppressed" is still suggestive of political motivation
"withheld" is more neutral and reflects their legitimate concerns about allowing material from a notorious fabricator to go viral on their platform as a bogus October Surprise soibangla ( talk) 23:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
How about a word that is used by sources, since this is so contentious. Let's see, I have:
  • 1 for "censor"
  • 1 for "suppress"
  • 1 for "block access"
Sysiphis ( talk) 14:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
would you agree that a private company withholding a story by an outlet notorious for publishing pure fabrications, on its private property as they deliberated their policies in the matter, in which they had concerns a fabricated October Surprise story might go viral on their platform during the closing weeks of a presidential campaign and wrongly affect the election outcome, is considerably different from the government violating the First Amendment by censoring the story? soibangla ( talk) 23:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
did the government censor it, in violation of the First Amendment? [3] soibangla ( talk) 19:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
You have been talking about Taibbi. I have not. I am not concerned with whether the government censored it. I am saying Facebook and Twitter did. You seem to agree, based on a comment below. So that fact, and the dates they were censoring the story, and probably also the fact that Twitter banned the New York Post for 16 days, should go in the intro. Sysiphis ( talk) 20:16, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
what Twitter did is not censorhip. it was a moderation decision on private property soibangla ( talk) 20:20, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
It's not true that Taibbi reported there was no evidence that the government didn't supress the story, only that it wasn't ordered the supression. His actual report was that the fbi misled twitter into believing it was a hoax even though they already knew the laptop was authentic. Amthisguy ( talk) 17:42, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
source, please? soibangla ( talk) 17:45, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
"Taibbi found no evidence of government suppression of the story" is your claim. You're the one who needs to back it up. Amthisguy ( talk) 17:55, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
ok [4] soibangla ( talk) 18:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
"22. Although several sources recalled hearing about a “general” warning from federal law enforcement that summer about possible foreign hacks, there’s no evidence - that I've seen - of any government involvement in the laptop story. In fact, that might have been the problem..." It was Twitter, not the government, that blocked this stuff. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 19:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Now added. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 19:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
"Though I didn’t find “direct evidence” of government involvement in censorship programs in the first Twitter Files piece, we did discover it, on a grand scale, almost immediately after." [5] Amthisguy ( talk) 05:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Amthisguy then why have Jordan and Comer completely dropped their investigations and fallen silent about it? soibangla ( talk) 05:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC) reply
That's not the point. The article currently says twice that Taibbi didn't report finding evidence of government involvement, quotes him, and uses that as evidence against the narrative. That info is long outdated, and is the opposite of what he later said, and should be removed. I would, but am not extended confirmed. On the other hand, his later statement shouldn't be added either unless a reliable source reported on it.
This isn't about whether there was government involvement. This is about wrongly using Taibbi to support the case that there wasn't, despite the fact he made the opposite case. Amthisguy ( talk) 06:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC) reply
did he find evidence specifically about the NY Post story, which is the matter of this article? soibangla ( talk) 06:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Yes, 2 pieces of evidence [6]
1. In Taibbis earlier report he argued that Twitter made the censorship decision because of the FBIs indirect involvement. He argued that they decided to censor the Post story because of general warnings by the FBI that Russia could leak hacked materials.
2. In his later reports he argued that the FBI was directly involved in the censorship of the laptop story, and gave evidence of them requesting twitter take action on different accounts, etc.
Whether we consider that good evidence of the FBIs direct involvement in censoring the story is not the point. Taibbi wrote that he did consider it evidence of that, and it is false to say he didn't. Amthisguy ( talk) 07:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC) reply
please quote exactly what he said about the laptop story soibangla ( talk) 08:24, 7 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Ok. Again, Taibbi never reported that there was no government involvement. He argued that there was no direct government involvement. That is not the same. He argued in the first twitter files installment and many times later, that the censorship decision of the story was made by Twitter because of general FBI warnings of hacked material.
From On Today's Absurd New York Times Hit Piece by Matt Taibbi:
Rutenberg and Lee Myers imply Benz influenced a change in my personal reporting, since I didn’t discover “evidence of direct government involvement” in the first installment of the Twitter Files about the Hunter Biden laptop story:

The author of that dispatch, Mr. Taibbi, concluded that Twitter had limited the coverage amid general warnings from the F.B.I. that Russia could leak hacked materials to try to influence the 2020 election. Though he was critical of previous leadership at Twitter, he reported that he saw no evidence of direct government involvement. In March 2023, Mr. Benz joined the fray. Both Mr. Taibbi and Mr. Benz participated in a live discussion on Twitter, which was co-hosted by Jennifer Lynn Lawrence, an organizer of the Trump rally that preceded the riot on Jan. 6… As Mr. Taibbi described his work, Mr. Benz jumped in: “I believe I have all of the missing pieces of the puzzle.” There was a far broader “scale of censorship the world has never experienced before,” he told Mr. Taibbi, who made plans to follow up.

Nice try. Though I didn’t find “direct evidence” of government involvement in censorship programs in the first Twitter Files piece, we did discover it, on a grand scale, almost immediately after. Subsequent Twitter Files reports reflected this, including “ Twitter, the FBI Subsidiary” from December 16th, 2022, and the “ Twitter and Other Government Agencies” story published on Christmas Eve of 2022, the day the IRS opened a case on me. Amthisguy ( talk) 17:39, 7 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I don't see he is specifically referencing the laptop story. soibangla ( talk) 18:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC) reply
"I didn’t discover 'evidence of direct government involvement' in the first installment of the Twitter Files about the Hunter Biden laptop story:"
You're right. He wasnt directly talking about the laptop story when he said he did find direct evidence of fbi involvement in censorship. That's why instead of wanting to remove the statements, like I said before, I want to add the word "direct", which he used himself here, and in other places. He is specifically talking about his claims made in the same twitter files installment being quoted about the hunter biden laptop story. This is strong support for the addition of the word "direct". Amthisguy ( talk) 18:41, 7 July 2024 (UTC) reply
It's also undue to have both a paraphrase and a quote for the same quote. Amthisguy ( talk) 19:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC) reply
thank you for your thoughtful comments, which are quite a lot to chew on, and you've had a head start here and it might take me some time to respond in full, but I initially detect some things that are not quite precise portrayals. I hope to get back to you as time allows. soibangla ( talk) 03:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Request is unclear. DN ( talk) 05:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Are we all agreed now that the laptop actually exists? TFD ( talk) 02:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I am aware of a narrative making the rounds since yesterday's testimony that "the FBI proved the laptop is real!" but this was known long ago, as well as Hunter's ownership, and our article has long reflected that. but yesterday's testimony actually showed the FBI did not verify the laptop contents had not been altered before they picked it up. [7] soibangla ( talk) 03:41, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Much of the discussion in this article has been about whether the laptop really existed. I just want to know where we are:
  1. There is no laptop.
  2. There's a laptop, but the Russians planted it.
  3. The laptop belongs to Hunter, but the emails are fakes.
  4. Some of the emails are fakes.
  5. The emails are real, but they don't show wrongdoing.
  6. Yes, but Trump.
TFD ( talk) 02:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I don't find that a serious response, but anyway...
this article long ago established it was Hunter's laptop
no one has asserted "Russian agents" planted it at the repair shop, but Bannon and Rudy were in the chain of custody before the laptop surfaced, though these days it can be difficult to ascertain who might be aligned with Russia, know what I mean?
some of the emails have been authenticated, though most have not, bearing in mind that GRU hacked Burisma to steal email credentials that could be used to forge emails in undetectable ways. cryptographic certificates.
the laptop shows that Hunter descended into drug-induced debauchery with prostitutes as he was in despair that his big brother died, but the laptop has not revealed any evidence that he or his father were involved in illicit business or political activities soibangla ( talk) 03:12, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I would argue that when you're at a point where you're smoking crack every 15 minutes and sleeping on cars and all the other wild stuff, you cannot get paid huge amounts to sit on the board of a large foreign energy company unless something else is going on. That alone should be enough for extreme suspicion. The laptop may not quite be a smoking gun, but it is definitely evidence to that end. This is why it is so important to introduce as much doubt as possible, despite being unable to point to a single email that was definitively faked. If we have to we will delve into unhinged conspiracy theories that the Russians might have used stolen Burisma cryptographic certificates to forge flawless fake emails, well so be it.
Hey did anyone else find it a little weird that there is a nice picture of Hunter to top off this article about the data on his laptop? How about a picture of him taken from the laptop? Would be more appropriate. Sysiphis ( talk) 14:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Whoa! Now you are endangering any support and sympathy you might be getting here. Back off from the conspiracy thinking and SYNTH ideas. Don't go down that road. Keep Burisma out of it. In fact, you should delete what you just wrote, and you can also delete this comment of mine at the same time. Just leave a good edit summary. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 14:30, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I can't tell if this is a joke or trolling or serious. Is speculating that GRU used stolen cryptographic certificates from a Burisma hack to make untraceable forgeries... is that not a conspiracy theory? Is that not SYNTH? Who brought up Burisma? Sysiphis ( talk) 14:52, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Sorry about not being clear. I am not talking about certificates, but your insinuation here: "you cannot get paid huge amounts to sit on the board of a large foreign energy company unless something else is going on." What's the "something else is going on"? Explain what you mean. (We already know about why some would want to try to exploit Hunter's relationship with his father, so I assume you are referring to something else (?).) -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 16:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Sysiphis Slywriter are you gonna edit the article? this is your big opening to stage a coup and take down the Cabal. you can do it!
if not, this thread has become a waste of time and should be closed soibangla ( talk) 17:02, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
No one has suggested that Joe Biden acted on Burisma's behalf. You keep bringing that up as a strawman argument to exclude facts reported in mainstream media. TFD ( talk) 00:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC) reply
No one has suggested that Joe Biden acted on Burisma's behalf
"there's video of him bragging about it, dude! he and Hunter took bribes for it and the FD-1023 proves it!" soibangla ( talk) 00:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Can you provide a time and date reference. I cannot find it. TFD ( talk) 00:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I cannot find a reliable source to support this, but if someone can I am prepared to add this as paragraph #6 in the lead:

By June 2024, no evidence had publicly surfaced to support suspicions that the laptop was part of a Russian disinformation scheme.

soibangla ( talk) 04:30, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Is the Vox source I mentioned not reliable? Then why is it in the article? Sysiphis ( talk) 13:27, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
it would be helpful to hand me that source so I don't need to hunt for it in a wall of text soibangla ( talk) 14:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Ctrl-f is your friend: https://www.vox.com/22992772/hunter-biden-laptop
So, nearly a year and a half later, it’s worth revisiting what happened back in the heat of the 2020 campaign. Some decisions and claims look dubious in retrospect. Twitter briefly blocked links to the story for potentially containing hacked material and Facebook briefly restricted it as possible “misinformation” — but it may have been neither. And no evidence has emerged to back up suspicions from former intelligence officials, backed by Biden himself, that the laptop’s leak was a Russian plot. Sysiphis ( talk) 18:59, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
And up-to-date articles should be your friend. That Vox piece is over two years old. Zaathras ( talk) 19:05, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Most of the sources in the article are older than that. Invalid complaint. Sysiphis ( talk) 20:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Is there an actual editing suggestion to be made?

This has been essentially a 36-hour lecture with nothing aimed at article improvement. Let's see an actual "change X to Y" proposal soon, otherwise this section should be archived. Zaathras ( talk) 19:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Actually many suggestions have been made. You said that you think all the suggestions are "invalidated" because they are somehow associated with "MAGA", and that's fine, just ignore if you like, but maybe give other people a chance to address before you rush to archive less than 2 days before the topic has opened, while other topics on here are from over a month ago. Here are a few, for anyone else reading:
  • From the opening post on the topic: the mainstream media (and the intelligence community) openly accused this story of being Russian disinformation, despite, as Vox reported (mentioned later) 'no evidence had ever emerged "that the laptop's leak was a Russian plot"'. Had ever emerged. Maybe that should go in the introduction, and be written in clear and direct language.
  • It should be stated unequivocally that there is NO EVIDENCE that either the release of the laptop or the data found on it was part of a Russian disinformation campaign.
  • Natasha Bertrand of Politico wrote a story about the letter, with the headline, "Hunter Biden story is Russian disinfo, dozens of former intel officials say." According to you, that headline is completely false. Maybe something should be added to let the reader know that? ... this as well probably deserves a mention in the intro
  • So Twitter/Facebook censoring the Post's reporting, the accusations from the media, the Biden campaign (and, inexplicably, the intelligence community) that this was Russian disinformation, none of that is part of the controversy? Because that's all in the article, just scattered grudging admissions. I'm saying these facts shouldn't be treated as ancillary background trivia, and instead should be brought into the introductory overview.
Sysiphis ( talk) 20:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Per Valjean's remarks, if a publisher is free to "reverse course", they are not being censored. Words have meaning, partisan and self-serving spinmeisters to the contrary notwithstanding. SPECIFICO talk 22:49, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Words have meaning.
"censor" means "to suppress or delete as objectionable". Your statement is false. Sysiphis ( talk) 23:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Those weren't editing suggestions, just a repackaged list of things you do not agree with. Zaathras ( talk) 18:05, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Your complaint is obviously not valid, and you are engaging in tedious contrarianism. Yes, it is a list of editing suggestions. Notice the form of "X should be added/should be mentioned/should be moved". Sysiphis ( talk) 20:25, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
No, they are all just repeated lines of "this is something I don't like, someone should change it." Provide your own re-write of a specific section, new citations and all, then we'll have something to discuss. Zaathras ( talk) 20:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply

it's just another long whinge, like we've seen many times here. no article edits have been made, total waste of time. it should be closed. soibangla ( talk) 17:04, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Doesn't seem to be clear, what's being proposed. Recommend closure of this discussion. GoodDay ( talk) 17:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply

here’s an official
proposal, the lead shall reflect the reality of the world without extra words or addendum or any other caveat and unequivocally state that “the controversy began when Hunter Biden dropped off his laptop” a statement most recently used by none other than the NYT.
Further that reference to Isaac disability be limited to one reference not in the lead and not as it is currently used three times to impeach the fact that Hunter Biden dropped off the laptop.
Rudy Giuliani, Burisma, Ukraine, Russia play no part in dropping off the laptopf. They do not improve their standing or diminish their role in this saga by acknowledging the singular fact Hunter Biden dropped off the laptop. Further the data does not become reliable by acknowledging this fact.
It just ends the farce that implies a Easter Bunny/ GOP/Russian agent dropped
off the laptop. Slywriter ( talk) Slywriter ( talk) 02:15, 9 June 2024 (UTC) reply
If H. Biden dropped off the laptop? Then I've no objections to mentioning it. GoodDay ( talk) 16:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Lead length

For such a short and inconsequential article (this is not a major earthshaking matter), the lead is enormous. Let's try to move some parts to the body. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 17:43, 9 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Unfortunately, content is being removed, not moved. The history of why there was so much controversy is disappearing, and that's historical revisionism. We do not do that here. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 03:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Valjean: I'd invite you, rather than reinserting the content into the lead as you have done, to restore my lead and put the material in the body. Riposte97 ( talk) 04:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I've now gone through and inserted the very few things that appeared in the lead and not the body into the latter. Riposte97 ( talk) 11:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

There may be some duplicative context between these 2 paragraphs...

  • In November 2022, CBS News published a forensic analysis it commissioned, which examined a "clean" copy of the data obtained directly from the repair shop operator. That analysis concluded that the "clean" data, including over 120,000 emails, originated with Hunter Biden and had not been altered, contrasting that to other copies circulated by Republican operatives, which "could have been tampered with". The Washington Post reported that experts at their request had authenticated a number of emails, including one that was the subject of the New York Post reporting. The drive analyzed for The Washington Post lacked a clear chain of custody, and was considered "a mess" and "a disaster" from a forensic standpoint by the two analysts. It contains emails marked to and from Hunter Biden and other digital files relating to him.
  • Two forensic analysts who independently examined the data for The Washington Post authenticated 1,828 and 22,000 emails, respectively, of the almost 129,000 emails on the hard drive in 2022. Neither analyst could verify the vast majority of the data, nor could they find clear evidence of tampering but they note "key pieces of evidence useful in discovering tampering were not available." In some cases, The Post matched content to other sources "that the experts were not able to assess". The unverifiable emails included some prominently reported previously by other news outlets. The analysis found that people other than Hunter Biden had created six new folders on the drive over a week after the original report by the New York Post and months after the laptop had been taken into FBI custody. It also found that data had been accessed and copied off the drive by people other than Hunter Biden over the course of nearly three years

Would it be possible to try and merge these? Cheers. DN ( talk) 05:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I have reset the article to the recent stable version. In addition to changing the framing and narrative of events, the recent edits to the lead removed significant content under cover of relocating UNDUE-for-lead text to the article body. Per the CT page restriction, affirmative consensus is required for any such change(s). SPECIFICO talk 16:09, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
@ SPECIFICO: on the contrary, nothing was removed that wasn't inserted in the body. Of course it changes the narrative to remove several paragraphs of undue material. We're now back to square one, and the article is confusing to read. Riposte97 ( talk) 22:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
This CT page is one of the many on which we are not permitted to change the narrative without affirmative consensus. Much of the current lead content is vital to framing this subject. SPECIFICO talk 22:27, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
"This CT page is one of the many on which we are not permitted to change the narrative without affirmative consensus."
False.
The CT page notice says:
  • "You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)
  • Changes challenged by reversion may not be reinstated without affirmative consensus on the talk page"
CT does not require affirmative consensus to make new edits or "change the narrative"--there's no such wording in CT policy. That faulty interpretation of CT would eliminate BRD, which continues to apply to such pages. DonFB ( talk) 23:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
The falsity of that statement aside, I think it should be relatively straightforward to establish consensus that my trimming of the lead was an overall improvement. Riposte97 ( talk) 23:31, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Yes, the hyperfocus on 2 particular reports from CBS and WaPo makes no sense. They only examine copies of copies of the drive, not the original laptop's. They are neither the first nor the only parties to authenticate contents. Key points to summarize: that outlets operated off of copies of the drive, findings that copies used by others differed from those used by GOP operatives, and that the key emails used in the NYP story have both been verified ("10 held by H for the big guy" and Cafe Milano meeting emails), and that FBI investigators (with the actual laptop) have authenticated it as well (this is currently merged with FBI seizure of the laptop in the 2nd lead paragraph) Possible special focus can be given to CBS, given their clean copy direct from the Mac repair shop, and Politico, given that they were the first to authenticate and verified the most prominent emails.
This can all be summarized as: Starting in 2021, news outlets began to authenticate some of the contents of the laptop, using copies of the data. A Politico report from 2021 verified two key emails used in the New York Post's original reporting. In 2022, CBS News published a forensic analysis it commissioned, which examined a "clean" copy of the data obtained directly from the repair shop operator. That analysis concluded that the "clean" data, including over 120,000 emails, originated with Hunter Biden and had not been altered, contrasting that to other copies circulated by Republican operatives, which "could have been tampered with". Other outlets also verified portions of the data, while noting problems in fully authenticating the copies they had to work with. FBI investigators with the original laptop concluded “that the laptop was genuinely his and did not seem to have been tampered with or manipulated.” In June 2024, federal prosecutors utilized the laptop as evidence as part of a criminal case against Hunter Biden, alongside testimony from an FBI agent involved in authenticating and investigating the laptop. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 16:38, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

The article's lead currently has six paragraphs. That is too long and should be reduced by at least two of them. TarnishedPath talk 12:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Done, I condensed and merged the ridiculously detailed wapo and cbs authentication, merged some things where they belonged, and merged the paragraph on lack of russian disinfo and prosecutors' usage of the laptop to other areas. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 02:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Collecting lead suggestions in this topic for consensus

Count this as my consensus vote that the shorter lead was superior in every way. I would in fact make it just a bit longer to add some easy details inline and also mention some important aspects of this saga:

  • The suppression of the story by social media.
  • The intelligence community's vocal speculation/warning that it could be Russian disinformation, how the media distorted that message, and how Joe Biden himself cited the 51 signatories' letter on the debate stage.

These were very visible happenings, and it just cannot seem like a complete summary without mention.

I was going to add this myself, since it was my impression that consensus had already been achieved, as demonstrated by many specific complaints about the lead having been left unaddressed by objectors, and them calling for edits to be made.

This topic can serve as a staging ground. Please when responding, at least to this first nesting level, provide either A) a complete list of general points that you think should be covered in the lead, B) the specific changes you would make to the following list of points, or C) your complete suggestion for the lead, verbatim.

Here are mine, ordered based on chronology, which is usually the best way to present past controversies.

1. Hunter Biden abandoned his laptop at the Delaware repair shop.

2. The FBI seized it on behalf of the US attorney's office investigating Hunter.

3. Before it was seized the owner made a copy which made its way to the New York Post, forming the basis of an October surprise, as it was seen as politically damaging to Joe Biden. (if you wanna include that it passed through Giuliani's hands that might be okay, but I think it's more appropriately covered under the "chain of custody has been contentious" stanza).

4. On October 14th, the Post published articles containing emails from the laptop which suggested that Hunter Biden was acting corruptly on behalf of his father, and contradicted statements made by Joe Biden that he had never spoken to his son about his foreign business dealings.

5. Within hours Twitter and Facebook had blocked the Post story.

6. On October 19th, 51 former intelligence officials release a letter suggesting, without evidence but based on past experience, that Russia could potentially be behind it.

7. Joe Biden cited the letter on stage during the Presidential debate (the quote should be inserted here).

8. The authenticity, provenance, chain of custody, etc of the laptop has been a contentious issue. (the reverted lead had a good handling of this. this might also be a good place to mention that Hunter Biden's laptop was used during his recent trail which ended in conviction.)

9. So far no evidence has emerged that this was a Russian plan.

10. A Republican subcommittee did not (so far? has it concluded?) conclude that Joe Biden had acted corruptly. Sysiphis ( talk) 18:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Didn't this topic just get closed for WP:NOTFORUM? DN ( talk) 09:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Nevermind, I missed the previous section title. DN ( talk) 09:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
@ SysiphisThis proposal has my support. Unless someone can give a compelling argument against, I'd say you should proceed. Riposte97 ( talk) 05:00, 15 June 2024 (UTC) reply
This stuff belongs, if it belongs anywhere, belongs in the body. You can't jam everything into the lead. The lead is a high level summary of the most important parts of the body. TarnishedPath talk 12:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I think I covered everything here in my take at the lead, besides the overly specific 51 former intel officials and its quoting by Biden. They were a prominent force in getting suspicion of Russian involvement out there, but not the only ones. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 02:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Supreme court ruling

  1. "The court found on a 6-3 vote that plaintiffs did not have standing to sue, in part because they had failed to adequately allege that the content moderation at issue was as a result of government actions." [1]

Cheers. DN ( talk) 05:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Does that need to go in the lead? I feel it's enough to say that they did indeed take the stories down. But I see how it might beg the question. Zuckerberg said he did it because the FBI had warned him. Sysiphis ( talk) 17:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply
If it is already in the lead in some way, a ruling from SCOTUS probably bares WEIGHT. If it's not in the lead and just in the body, then no, it should not go in the lead by itself. DN ( talk) 17:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I removed twitter files content from the lead and replaced it with social media generally while revising the lead, since Facebook exists too. This did remove a prior focus on alleged government-directed (vs government influenced) social media blocks of the lead. I originally placed Murthy v. Missouri in the lead, but it was removed because it was too much of departure without the preceding allegations of government-directed social media blocks. It's still in the body though. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 20:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply

References

  1. ^ "Supreme Court tosses out claim Biden administration coerced social media companies to remove content". NBC News. 2024-06-26. Retrieved 2024-06-27.

Lawsuit Section

Unconstructive SPECIFICO talk 18:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC) reply

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should be updated that Hunter has backed away from erroneous claims.

https://nypost.com/2024/06/13/us-news/hunter-biden-drops-laptop-lawsuit-against-rudy-giuliani/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=nypost&utm_source=twitter LemonPumpkin ( talk) 14:55, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply

We should definitely not use anything from the WP:NYPOST unless it's from their sports section. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 15:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Are you denying this factual information that he shrunk away from his lawsuit? Here's a link from the propagandistic USA Today if you're that clueless. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/hunter-biden-drops-lawsuit-against-rudy-giuliani-for-releasing-his-laptops-information/ar-BB1oeOdU LemonPumpkin ( talk) 14:09, 15 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I am not ever responding to the substance of WP:UNCIVIL posts like this. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 14:13, 15 June 2024 (UTC) reply
This is not surprising, given Hizzoner's recent bankruptcy. It is possible Rudy considers defamation a sport, but that's a touchy subject for the Post these days. SPECIFICO talk 17:56, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have added a sentence about the lawsuit being dropped. There is nothing to suggest that they are "erroneous claims", of course. It is more likely due to the impossibility of getting blood from a stone, which SPECIFICO alluded to. This likely would have been done yesterday if the above unconstructive editor knew how to use a talk page. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 18:31, 15 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Have the authors of this article ever heard of DKIM?

Just wondering, since it renders most of the discussion about provenance and copying irrelevant. Essentially the email headers contained cryptographic hashes of various email fields digitally signed by the email provider. I am amazed that most people who talk about this have absolutely no idea what DKIM is. Anyway, here's a useful citation. https://github.com/robertdavidgraham/hunter-dkim TwoGunChuck ( talk) 17:08, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I can't speak for the other "authors" of this article, but I'm not a computer scientist nor have I seen DKIM mentioned in any RS about Hunter Biden's emails, so I am not familiar with it, no. I don't imagine whoever this is posting this on GitHub is RS, but it seems to confirm the general consensus about the emails (valid) and the laptop (unclear provenance) at this time. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 17:29, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Some emails appear to have been Hunter Biden originals and others may have been added. That has been known since the day of the NY Post publication. There is no credible claim that everything on the device or in the cloud account is a genuine HB original. SPECIFICO talk 18:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply
You're right, the discussions about authenticity of this particular email, Pozharsky's thanking of Hunter Biden for the Cafe Milano meeting with VP Biden in April 2015, are moot. While this GitHub repo is a self-published source, we do have usable reliable sources ( Politico), dating back to 2021, that verify this: A person who had independent access to Hunter Biden’s emails confirmed he did receive a 2015 email from a Ukrainian businessman thanking him for the chance to meet Joe Biden. The same goes for a 2017 email in which a proposed equity breakdown of a venture with Chinese energy executives includes the line, "10 held by H for the big guy?".
That being said, this wiki article does certainly have issues conveying such information. For some reason, the authentication focused paragraphs in the lead are dedicated to a CBS and Washington Post authentication of copies of copies of the laptop hard drive in general, rather than deep dives into the most relevant emails or authentication of the real laptop itself. It's also proven very difficult to revise this content. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 00:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply
I would be interested to see a reliable secondary source that reports DKIM is impervious to forgery/spoofing even if Russian military intelligence hacked Burisma for "email credentials," especially if Pozharsky accessed his gmail through an email client on a Burisma server soibangla ( talk) 01:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Report Concludes That The Republican Hunter Biden Laptop Conspiracy Is Nonsense

Report Concludes That The Republican Hunter Biden Laptop Conspiracy Is Nonsense A new House report found that the Republican claim that the CIA suppressed the Hunter Biden laptop story is nonsense.

We'll need a better source than this, but it's worth digging into. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 03:02, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Off-topic coatrack
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
@ Valjean
This is related to the "Spies who lie" story dating back to a House Judiciary report from 2023. It basically alleges that some letter signees, particularly Michael Morell (main lead on the letter), colluded with the Biden camp to release the letter, or at least was motivated to create it to help the Biden campaign (there is very clear evidence of this at least, Morell states as much) and that a CIA employee worked on the letter, such as by collecting signatures. It's not in the article, but it can be added. RS reporting on it doesn't call it a conspiracy theory like the substacker does, but mentions that Dem minority have rebuttals on some points: NYT, CNN, CNN 2,
CBS on CIA employee:
GOP report presents: They said that a former CIA analyst who had signed the letter told the committee that a CIA employee affiliated with the agency's Prepublication Classification Review Board ("PCRB") had told him over the phone about the statement and asked if he would sign it.
Dems report presents: Democrats also suggested that the former CIA analyst who claimed to have spoken with the current CIA employee about the letter was mistaken, and they produced the email he received from one of the letter organizers, which was identical to the one sent to all the former national security officials.
WaPo on Morell/Blinken from his testimony:
GOP report presents: Morell said in his testimony that he had spoken with Biden campaign senior adviser (and now secretary of state) Antony Blinken about the Hunter Biden laptop story two days earlier, on Oct. 17, and he agreed that conversation “triggered” his intent to write the statement.
Dems report presents: Asked whether Blinken had directed, suggested or insinuated that he should write such a statement, Morell said, “My memory is that he did not.”
CBS and Telegraph on Morell/Letter motives from his testimony:
CBS states GOP report presents: contemporaneous emails show the organizers' intent in drafting and releasing the statement: '[W]e think Trump will attack Biden on the issue at this week's debate and we want to offer perspectives on this from Russia watchers and other seasoned experts, and we want to give the [Vice President] a talking point to use in response.'"
Telegraph states GOP report presents: Mr Morell said: “There were two intents. One intent was to share our concern with the American people that the Russians were playing on this issue. “And, two, it was to help vice president Biden.” Mr Morell was asked why he wanted to help Mr Biden, and responded: “Because I wanted him to win the election.” He added that the Biden campaign had also “helped to strategise about the public release of the statement” by the 51 intelligence officials.
I can't really find a direct Dem rebuttal to this reported in RS or elsewhere. There is: Mr Morell was asked by CBS News whether the Republican characterisation of his evidence, which was given in private, was accurate. He declined to comment. and a generic statement from WH Spox Ian Sams: “House Republicans keep weaponising their power to re-litigate the 2020 election in a wacky strategy to get on Fox News. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 04:07, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply
WRT that substack, the more recent GOP majority report and the Dem minority report, it is a less substantive story. It's trying to push the above items about Morell towards the CIA itself by pointing out that Morell was a contractor for the agency at the time and that the letter went through CIA's PCRB. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 04:18, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Please don't hijack this thread to coatrack other topics, even if they might be somehow tangentially related. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 16:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply

See below for support from the Supreme Court: "Supreme Court Nukes Hunter Biden Laptop Conspiracy in Brutal Ruling" -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 16:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I think you might be misconstruing the sources you're talking about.
The 52 page House Democrats report referenced in that Politicus USA substack article is a response to another installment of the "Spies who lie" report from the House GOP. The original, like I mentioned in the convo you closed, is from 2023, and we have RS that report in-depth on what went on. Both the new reports your article talks about and the old reports from 2023 focus on the 51 intelligence officials letter. You can verify this by looking at the table of contents in the hyperlinked House report in the Politicus USA substack article you brought up. The House GOP allegation, like I said, is that the lead on the letter, Michael Morell colluded with Biden camp to craft the letter, or at least was partisanly biased in his motivation. This latest controversy is House GOP trying to link Morell's testimony about being motivated to write the letter to help Biden to the CIA itself. This is not some new thing, although it would be a new introduction to this article.
The Supreme Court case in question referenced below is Murthy v. Missouri, which focuses on the FBI and CISA and any influence they had on social media companies cracking down on the NYP laptop article. This is entirely separate from the intelligence officials letter and the CIA controversy that is focused on in the substack article you referenced. This is currently in the article already, I put this in the social media corporations section of the article. KiharaNoukan ( talk) 20:21, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Supreme Court Nukes Hunter Biden Laptop Conspiracy in Brutal Ruling

Supreme Court Nukes Hunter Biden Laptop Conspiracy in Brutal Ruling -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 16:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Giuliani is the only source listed

Bevan Cooney should also be listed as a source. J.P.Dill ( talk) 20:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy&oldid=1234336950"

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