![]() | Horses in Sudan was nominated as a Social sciences and society good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (November 27, 2023, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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![]() | This article was edited to contain a total or partial translation of Cheval au Soudan from the French Wikipedia. Consult the history of the original page to see a list of its authors. |
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Reviewer: A455bcd9 ( talk · contribs) 13:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
Notable confusion includes the "Godolphin Arabian," actually a Tunisian Barbarin, foundational to the Thoroughbred breed. a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 16:54, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
The use of cavalry seems historically rare, infantry being preferred.. The source says that heavy cavalry was rare and that camelry was preferred but that then (when?) "the switch to horses as battle began increased speed". And even later on the article we have
During the 13th and 14th centuries, cavalry became an important factor in the area., and
Mounted warfare was a prominent feature of Sudanese military strategies. Horses served as cavalry, offering not only mobility but also the ability to charge into enemy lines with force. Cavalry units were known for their speed and manoeuvrabilityand
Only the wealthy and powerful could own horses, and rulers like the Soso king Soumaoro Kanté showcased their authority through impressive cavalries..
Cavalry units were known for their speed and manoeuvrability, making them a formidable presence on the battlefield.with the source provided.
On the other hand, it is certain that the horse was not used, or only very little, as an agricultural aid.I found a related excerpt in the source, but the source is about Central Sudan. Can we infer that this was true for the rest of Sudan? Unless you find a source for the whole Sudan, I would maybe write instead "On the other hand, the horse was not used, or only very little, as an agricultural aid in Central Sudan." ("it is certain that" is unnecessary) But it is weird as it is later written
Beyond their role in warfare, horses were essential for agricultural activities and transportation. They aided in ploughing fields and moving goods, contributing significantly to Sudan's agrarian economy. Horses provided the necessary power for these tasks in regions with challenging terrain..
Beyond their role in warfare, horses were essential for agricultural activities and transportation.as the source seems to only cover Western Sudan. What about the rest of Sudan (besides Western and Central)? a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 16:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
in his study of domestic livestock in Sudan: do this include South Sudan? It should be made clear in the whole article whether you refer to present-day Sudan or the greater Sudan region.
In 2004, on the border between Sudan and Chad, mounted militias terrorised the population.[8] Many are Janjawid, pro-Arab government militiamen.related to the topic? Why is Horse racing both in its own subsection and in "Culture"? (
Sudanese culture celebrates horses through various festivals and events. Horse racing, for example, is a popular and vibrant tradition in Sudan.) I would move "Warfare" into "History" and Merge "Usage" and "Culture"
Mounted warfare was a prominent feature of Sudanese military strategies. Horses served as cavalry, offering not only mobility but also the ability to charge into enemy lines with force. Cavalry units were known for their speed and manoeuvrability, making them a formidable presence on the battlefield. They played a crucial role in various campaigns and conflicts, contributing to Sudan's military successes.[1]
In the 20th century, colonial breeding policy promoted the importation and then breeding of imported English and Arabian Thoroughbred horses, giving rise to breeds such as the Tawleed, which still races on the Khartoum racecourse.[2]
Like other countries in North Africa and the Middle East, the Khartoum region is hit by epidemics of African horse sickness, which causes high horse mortality. 85% of the Sudanese horses studied were, directly or indirectly, exposed to this virus.[3]
Beyond their role in warfare, horses were essential for agricultural activities and transportation[4]
Sudan's horse culture dates back centuries, with horses being highly prized and associated with wealth and power.[5]
Sudanese culture celebrates horses through various festivals and events.[6]
Mounted warfare was a prominent feature of Sudanese ..I think the confusion is coming from the fact that the source is mainly about Colonial Britain, an not Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. This is not mentioned verbatim but can be understood from the text without the need to specify different heavy, light, scout cavalry units.
In the 20th century, colonial breeding policy promoted the. I admit the last part of the sentence ", which still races on the Khartoum racecourse" is what you see in the image (editorialising from my part which is now removed) but the rest of the sentence can be verified from that ref. the 20th century is when the Anglo-Egyptian occupation of Sudan started (1899–1956). Anyway the whole sentence is removed.
Like other countries in North Africa and the Middle East, ...The whole sentences is properly sourced except the 85% which should have been 90%. I changed it to "the majority" according to the same source which states "Of the world’s horse population, only about 10% live in countries deemed free of equine piroplasmosis;"
Beyond their role in warfare, horses were ..removed the sentence as it is already sources at the start of the section. The reference belongs to the culture significance section, maybe misplaced when I was moving things
Sudan's horse culture dates back centuries,again not verbatim but the article mentions "They constitute an historic legacy, particularly for some ethnic groups", "The families renowned for horse breeding and horsemanship in Khartoum include those of Imam Al-Mahdi, late statesman Al-Azhary, Mamoun Ahmed Mekky, Muntasir Abdul A'al, Kaboky, al-Waleed Madibo and many other families." these are wealth and powerful families
Sudanese culture celebrates horses through various ...again I cannot include things verbatim as "The Sudanese people maintain a strong passion for horses and they often mention those domesticated animals in their traditional ardent poems and songs gleefully listened to by every Sudanese."
If you are unsure whether an article meets the good article criteria, you may call for another reviewer or subject expert to provide a second opinion( WP:GAN/I#2O). But I'm quite sure the article does not meet the GA criteria. Grorp's recent edits confirm my choice, and this is somehow a second opinion if you really wanted one... So instead of complaining: improve the article and re-nominate it later.
I admit the last part of the sentence ", which still races on the Khartoum racecourse" is what you see in the image (editorialising from my part which is now removed)). For instance
with horses being highly prized and associated with wealth and powercannot be verified by "The families renowned for horse breeding and horsemanship in Khartoum include those of Imam Al-Mahdi, late statesman Al-Azhary, Mamoun Ahmed Mekky, Muntasir Abdul A'al, Kaboky, al-Waleed Madibo and many other families." as you claimed. a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 08:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
I am going to weigh in here; consider it an unsolicited second opinion. During this review, FuzzyMagma swapped two poor citations the reviewer caught (theequinest.com, horsehints.org) for a worse one (horseranger.com). FuzzyMagma argued for the keeping of exarc.net on the basis of RS when that source wasn't even on topic (dung as fuel, not consumption of horses as meat).
So I stepped in and removed 4 citations and their related content. Investigating the source of the errors, two had come straight from the French wiki article; the others FuzzyMagma had taken from the English wiki Tawleed article (which I'll fix or tag later).
FuzzyMagma started this article from translating it from a French article, but I have noticed recently that the French Wikipedia seems pretty lax in their sourcing standards, because almost all of the French-to-English translations recently done for the Open Knowledge Association (OKA) project (on the subject of horses) have been problematic when evaluated under English Wikipedia standards. FuzzyMagma doesn't appear to be an OKA editor, but the source (French wiki) and topic (horse) are simply coincidental and the only reason I looked twice at this article at all.
Since FuzzyMagma has been pushing back against this reviewer, I checked xtools to get a better feel for the editor. I see that 6 of the over-200 articles FuzzyMagma created are GA-rated, all different reviewers. Five were pretty straightforward; one was a little contentious. Lots of B-class articles. I noticed that most of the articles are related to Sudan/Africa/Muslim topics; not horse topics.
So I would chalk it up to FuzzyMagma taking citations from other articles at face value combined with probably not having sufficient horse experience/knowledge to evaluate sources as well as they have done for other topics. I could be wrong, but that's my estimation of how this review (and article) went off the rails. If FuzzyMagma wants to consider a future GA review for Horses in Sudan, I would recommend first checking every single citation in the article to ensure it is a reliable source and actually verifies the content. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 21:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Can we get a few things straight, please? There is no 'Gharkawi', it's a misprint for 'Gharbawi', deriving from gharb (غرب), 'west', and meaning roughly 'westerner'; I think I've removed all references to it. The Tunisian Barbarin is a breed of fat-tailed sheep, just no idea what that's doing in here. The Barb is not one of the four breeds reported to DAD-IS by Sudan (go here, insert 'Sudan' and 'Horse'). And a photograph of a Fulani/Peul horseman on a Burkinabè horse taken by Jan Broekhuijse in 1969 some 4000–5000 km from Sudan can't conceivably be shown to be a Sudanese Country-Bred (yes, someone had mistakenly added it to a 'Sudanese horses' category on Commons, but as some corrupt American president (I forget which one) supposedly said, "Trust ... but verify"). Just my opinion, but nothing on fr.wp should be taken at face value; instead of blindly translating poor or erroneous content, it's both much easier and much more productive to write new content based on what the sources actually say (provided they are reliable, of course). Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 23:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)