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This article is almost entirely about the spread of the Spanish language, as opposed to the history of the Spanish language (what I expected was an article about how the language evolved over time, both in written and oral form, starting from the fusion of the native culture and Latin, to elements of modern society that are influencing the development of Spanish (i.e. technology, the academy that presides over standard Spanish, etc...); and distinct historical versions of Spanish, like old Spanish, middle Spanish, etc... (if such things do exist); not that the information in here isn't useful, but unless it has information about how the spread of the Spanish language influences the Spanish language (which isn't in this article yet), it may be better to place it in a different article, entitled "The spread of the Spanish language" -- Confuzion 11:26, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
‘….elites extended their Spanish to the whole population…’
The ‘elites’, who were often individuals that were mostly of European ancestry or that could pass for European, were too few in number to extend any language to the rest of the population. It was extended through Westernized biracials/mestizos, who outnumbered pure Europeans since early in the colonization period, because Old World diseases wiped out a large number of the indigenous population which allowed them to gain the ascendancy and then spread Spanish in the subsequent decades and centuries. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
136.186.78.80 (
talk)
07:26, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps we could move this to the History of Spanish. It's shorter and means the same thing. it came from my mom which came from spain which came from my mom's mom which came from my mom's mom's mom
I've been doing some reading which includes excerpts of old documents between about the time of the Conquest of Mexico until about 150 years ago. I'm seeing both systemtic and random differences to modern Spanish orthography. I cannot find anything on Wikipedia about anything but the current orthography. I would like to know if there were previous reforms, what those changed, or if Spanish orthography was unruly until recently. Any details greatly appreciated!
I am aware of some of the historic sound changes and that the u/v distinction goes back to Latin, but I am most interested in standardization issues. When was the spelling first standardized? What specific things were standardized at that time? How many times has this standard been reformed since? What were the specific changes made in those reforms? This related to work on Wiktionary where I would like to distinguish spellings which were considered correct at any point in history from non-standardized spellings, and possibly also from poor spelling.
In some parts of the Dominican Republic (The South Region, Azua province, etc) some people do say 'ansi' instead od asi. Just wanted to put it out there Omar ( talk) 02:49, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm cross-posting this question from Talk:Writing system of Spanish and Talk:Spanish language where I reveived some useful responses but was directed here. — Hippietrail 14:50, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Was the j pronounced as in the French and Portuguese pronouciation? Something like zsh? This must have evolved to s in the Philippines. In Filipino, we have 'sabun' (jabon- soap), 'relos'(reloj- watch), sugal(jugar-to play, in Filipino to gamble). Some Filipinos have names like Sesus (Jesus) , Sese . Saviour is Javier (and Xavier).-- Jondel 02:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Could a speaker of modern Spanish understand a speaker of Spanish spoken centuries before and vice versa? Say, around the 12th and 13th centuries? I know that Spanish seems to have changed much less than English or French from that time to now. Can anyone answer the question? Thanks. Stallions2010 18:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Dbachman recently suggested the merge and I knew it would happen eventually. I created "Linguistic history" because "History of" contained so little info about phonetics, etymology etc. and concentrated mainly on the social/historical spread of Spanish rather than its genetic makeup and its evolution. I didn't want to step on anyone's toes by completely re-arranging this article, so I just started one from scratch. Anyway... my vote is that we keep the basic format of "Linguistic history" as it is and essentially try to merge in any info from this page. Some of the tables at "Linguistic history" could be moved to the bottom because their place in the chronology of the language is hazy at best. The name of the article is also of little importance to me. Any thoughts?-- Hraefen Talk 16:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
It is well known the Romance languages derived from Latin. How the language
is adapted and transformed through generations and geographical
areas is the most interesting to me. The question could a
spanish speaker from 400 years ago have a discussion and understand spanish
speakers of today got me thinking. My initial response was no there have been
too many changes in pronunciation, as demostrated above, and the new
spanish slang. Today, spanish slang is used so greatly an aged spanish
speaker would need to be informed of the slang. Reguardless of the root
being Latin and spanish being a popular language spanish people from
400 years ago would not uphold a conversation. While catching the general
vocabulary the slang and transformation of the language would be the language
barrier. That question was the most interesting paragraph I read.
--
216.184.3.245
05:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)Stephanie Ambrose from Span 101 section 52
The intro has the following confusing paragraph:
The standard Spanish language is also called Castilian. It originated in the Cordillera Cantabrica, in northern Spain in the 8th and 9th centuries AD, but others claim to came from a Franco-Navarre and Gothic-Castillian dialects in the 11th century AD. After the Reconquista, this northern dialect was brought to the south and nearly replaced the provincial dialects, such as in Andalusia which it shown heavier influences of Moorish Arabic, (Moro or Morocho), Christian Arabic (Mozarabe) and Sefardi Jewish grammar ( Ladino, a form of Hebrew is nearly extinct in the 21st century, also known as Judeo-Iberian/Judeo-Hispano), all but vanished by the late 16th century.
Well, the mozárabes could be described as Christian Arabs, I suppose, but the Mozarabic language was a Romance language, not a form of Arabic! FilipeS 19:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
And Ladino is one of the names applied to Judaeo-Spanish, the Spanish of the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492, and of their descendants, who live today in cities of the eastern Mediterranean, such as Thessaloniki, Istanbul, and Izmir. It's written in the Hebrew alphabet, but it's a Romance language, not structurally related to Hebrew. Kotabatubara ( talk) 01:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
(1) I second the suggestion to cut the section "Influences" out of the article "History of the Spanish language" and merge its contents with the separate article "Influences on the Spanish language": It is a large enough topic to merit its own article. BUT...
(2) I suggest that the separate article be retitled "Loanwords in Spanish" or "Lexical borrowing in Spanish". Why? Because virtually all of the so-called "influences" that are solidly established are adoptions of words from other languages. Aside from vocabulary, all the given examples of "influence" are controversial, as the present text of the article correctly points out. F > h thanks to Basque? "No hard evidence." Lenition thanks to Celtic? The article cites problems with the proposal. Germanic phonological influence? "Very little." Arabic influence? All lexical (though the cross-referenced article "Arabic influence on Spanish" cites some phrases in addition to words). "Influence" is a nebulous term, much too general for the contents of the section/article merger under discussion. The unconfirmed speculations about Basque f > h, Celtic lenition, etc. can be included as incidental comments in the respective sections on sound change; they don't merit the focus of a dedicated section on "influences".
(3) I recommend that the separate article "Arabic influence on Spanish" be cut and merged with the newly-titled article "Loanwords in Spanish" (or that the latter article give up its Arabic section to be merged with the former article).
(4) An argument could be made to treat "learnèd" vocabulary in the "Loanwords" article, as borrowings from Latin.
(5) For the article on word-borrowing, languages not yet developed in the article include Catalan, French, Portuguese, Provençal, and Greek.
(6) Where claims about etymology become complex, they should be supported by consulting reputable dictionaries, such as J. Corominas's Diccionario crítico etimológico castellano e hispánico, and Corominas should be cited in the article's final section, "Sources". This dictionary has an appendix that organizes words according to source language. Kotabatubara 17:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
This is a frequent problem in Wikipedia. The section devotes more space to the Phillipines than to the whole of South America. It also gives particular attention to Puerto Rico and even to the Marianas - islands most Spanish speakers have never heard of. I won´t delete half of this section yet, but I may do. I suggest quite a few paragraphs of the section could be transferred to a new page called "The Spanish language in formerly Spanish territories acquired by the USA". The rest of this article is informative and good reading. Sebatianalfar 21:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Who have you been talking to? In all my travels around Latin America, I have never met a Spanish speaker who hasn't heard of Puerto Rico. Just as an example--Puerto Rican music is widespread accross the metropolitan areas of Latin America, and when you walk down the street in Buenos Aires or Santiago the music that's coming out of every shop window is reggaeton. So I am baffled at your suggestion. It's like saying most English speakers have never heard of America. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
200.55.125.95 (
talk)
04:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
A new series of Old Spanish legal texts have been discovered in Valpuesta (Basque Country, Spain). The oldest of the texts was written in 804, so it is the first text written in a romance language unless another one is discovered.
See theese links (in Modern Spanish, sorry):
http://www.valpuesta.com/hemeroteca/noticias_valpuesta/hemeroteca10.php
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartularios_de_Valpuesta
http://www.euskonews.com/0053zbk/gaia5303es.html
In the begining, the Spanish language was spoken in the Basque Country only, and not in Castile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.3.244.25 ( talk) 21:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
In most of the articles I've read concerning Spanish pronunciation, I always find the same mistake: B and V are the same sound. Actually, the phoneme B (voiced stop) only appears at the beginning of a word. On the other hand, the fricative version of the B sound is always pronounced this way between two vowels. Depending on historical reasons, the used character is B or V but, in any case, there are two kinds of B sound in Spanish.
In other words, the B sounds inside some words such as "bebo", "baba", "babor", "vivo" are different even though they are written using the same character.
Believe me. I'm a native Spanish speaker and one of the ways to find out the foreign origin of someone is the use of an only kind of B sound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fjfranco75 ( talk • contribs) 17:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I read it too quickly so I did not realise what you meant. However, remember that, unlike other languages such as French, where both Bs in "brebis" are pronounced alike, Spanish pronunciation has a strong rule: At the beginning, voiced stop; between vowels, fricative. So, I recommend you to include this fact in the section concerning the merge of B and V. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.164.9.93 ( talk) 19:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The quote "Beati Hispani quibus vivere bibere est" is attributed to Julius Caesar without reference to a credible source, and this quote is used to support the extraordinary claim that B and V already had the same sound in the 1st century BC. While the quote is often attributed to Caesar through the Internet, I haven't found a reliable source confirming this.-- Dadatic ( talk) 11:15, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Though the article explains how the language came down from Latin, it doesn't explain why? Why, nearly alone, did the Ostrogoths so faithfully preserve Latin that it was able to evolve into Spanish in the Middle Ages? (Okay, Romanian survived as well, and a canton in Switzerland). How did this happen? Why didn't the barbarians insist on their language as did the Lombards who wound up influencing Italian in Italy where one would have supposed Latin to survive the best? Student7 ( talk) 01:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
At the top of this article is a box that says "This article needs additional citations for verification," dated March 2009. Since that time, many citations have been added. Is there someone in Wikiland who needs to be notified of the new citations, or is there a periodic review of articles that will eventually see them? Kotabatubara ( talk) 04:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
This article is too biased towards Madrid Spanish. While the Real Academia Espanola may be holding on to the Madrid dialect as the worldwide standard, it is a comparatively small dialect with phonological and morphological oddities that never appear in Latin America at all. Please address this and incorporate more information about Latin American Spanish. (Latin American Spanish is not homogenous by any means, but the inclusion of the "th" phoneme here as the 'standard' pronunciation honestly feels like a slap in the face.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.55.125.95 ( talk) 04:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The statement that the [θ] sound is specific to northern and central Spain is wildly inaccurate. Most southern Spain also speaks using the [θ] sound, see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IberianSeseo2a.PNG 88.163.168.188 ( talk) 10:13, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Very very interesting article - but aren't the following incorrect?
...faciendam, factum, faminem, farīnam, fēminam, fīcatum, fīlium, foliam, fōrmōsum, fūmum, fungum, furcam
Thought it was femina, filius, fumus, fungus -- but I'm not sure, beginner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Littledogboy ( talk • contribs) 01:46, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
This claim is contradicted by the explanation that /f/ was never lost before /r/, /l/, /w/, /j/: the phoneme /f/ reappeared in the language (around the 16th century, as a result of borrowings from Classical Latin). /f/ can't have disappeared and reappeared if FESTA > /fjesta/ (etc.) without interruption. Repair of some sort is much needed. 96.42.57.164 ( talk) 16:19, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
I don't like to embarrass an individual, but an editor known only as "79.159.238.252" has recently been making this article (and others) incomprehensible by inserting language that can only be called "broken English". I think "79" means well, but his/her English isn't up to the job of editing in English. For example, words have come into Spanish "since" Mexico and "since" the Philippines ("since" = Sp. "desde" = "from"). See the "View History" of Influences on the Spanish language and History of Spanish for many more examples. Can we—those of us who care about these articles—together ask "79" to get some help with his/her English, or to go to the Wikipedia in his/her native language and edit there? Kotabatubara ( talk) 15:20, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
I see no particular reason to have two pages; a single page would parallel the situation with, e.g., History of French and History of the English language.
As an aside, please see the above entry about "Broken English" and the discussion of the same matter at Talk:Influences on the Spanish language. Some of us have deduced that much of the poor-quality material in these two articles is the result of a stream of sockpuppets or meat puppets that we have for some considerable time been chasing through such pages as Conquistador, and many pages about plants, particularly the plant family Lauraceae. Distinctive features of these "contributions" are the lack of citations, the very poor English, and (particularly frustratingly) the imaginative nonsense that frequently results from (1) automatic translation and from (2) copying from one page to another without regard to applicability of the "information". (In other words, my advice is not to spend time on cleaning up before you have removed all the dubious facts). Merging these two pages would, I think, be a useful step towards reducing the frustration factor that anyone who tries to improve the quality of this material would encounter. As a quick way to achieve an improvement, I'd suggest just changing Influences on the Spanish language to be a redirect to this page. Sminthopsis84 ( talk) 15:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Under "Influences", the second paragraph contains a statement that "sharks were known to Spaniards mainly as 'sea dogs'". If this is the case, the Spanish word(s) should be given. Aside from this problem, getting so deeply into a specific example seems inappropriate for an encyclopedia. The section was added as part of the 1,069-byte addition of 4 December 2012, by "79.159.238.252". See "79.159.238.252 (talk)" about sockpuppet allegations. I suggest that someone delete the second half of the paragraph, or will do so myself if someone seconds the motion. Kotabatubara ( talk) 21:39, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
To explain my reversions of 19 April 2013: The reason why historians say "the eighteenth century" is that an expression like "the 1700s" can be unclear as to whether it means the whole eighteenth century or just its first decade. Second topic: When one language adopts a word from another language, the conventional term in linguistics is "borrowing". Granted, it's not like borrowing money or a library book, where you're obligated to return it, but it's the standard term, and it's not the role of Wikipedia to change that custom. Wikipedia's article on the phenomenon is correctly titled Loanword. A search on the [< http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=lexical+borrowing%2Clexical+adoption&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=> Google Books Ngram Viewer] will corroborate what I'm saying about standard usage. Kotabatubara ( talk) 22:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Is it ok to add a section as below? MagistraMundi ( talk) 08:55, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
One distinctive feature of Spanish etymology is the way in which the liquids /r/ and /l/ have sometimes replaced each other in words derived from Latin, French and other sources. For example, Spanish milagro, "miracle", is derived from Latin miraculum. Here is an incomplete list of such words:
Also present in Southern Italy, e.g. Neapolitan salùteme à sòrete 'salutami tua sorella'. 96.42.57.164 ( talk) 22:18, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
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In the section "Modern development of the Old Spanish sibilants", paragraph 2 contradicts paragraph 1. Paragraph 1 says their "contrast depended entirely on a subtle distinction between their places of articulation:" apicoalveolar (also called "cóncava" by Menéndez Pidal) and laminodental (alias "convexa"). Paragraph 2 says they were "homorganic". The IPA uses the unadorned [s] for an "alveolar" sibilant, without reference to the shape of the tongue, and [s̪] with a "subscript bridge" for a "dental" variant, also unspecified as to whether apical or laminal. What's a good source to resolve this question? Kotabatubara ( talk) 23:42, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
"escudriñar, "scrutinize", earlier escrudiñar, from Latin *scrutiniāre, from noun scrutinium."
Am I blind, or is there no liquid interchange in this example? There's metathesis, of course, -crudi- > -cudri, but that's not what the section talks about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.147.35.152 ( talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
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... is not explained in the article, or at least I don't find an explanation.-- 82.137.115.143 ( talk) 21:01, 25 November 2020 (UTC)